Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jupiter Survivor on September 27, 2005, 11:38:00 PM
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John,
Life has taught me much but one of the main things is that many people are needy, emotionally that is. The SEED fed those needs. Just as you have many cults, whether they are business, political or religious. You have and will continue to have zealots preaching the sky is falling in every walk of life. It fed the needs of, in my case, a parent that had absolutely NO parenting skills and wanted to hand off the problem SHE (and a family pedophile) created to someone else. My problems didn't start with the SEED nor did they end there. The SEED did however, really mess with my very young confused head. Do you have any idea, how many years I felt I was the one that was wrong? I was not alone. Being a reformed drug addict DID NOT give you any training to help others. YOU were an adult.....I was a kid. You only learned what worked for a select few. The rest of us were just trying to fit in.....kind of like some of us did with our druggie peers.... I NEVER did drugs(before the Seed), but the staff said I did and that was that. I "confessed" I did just to appease the staff after 2 months of trying to tell them I didn't. It was the ONLY way to get off the front row. It took over a year to graduate.....my entire 9th grade. Since I lived in Jupiter, I didn't wasn't allowed to go home for over 7 months. Wonder why I flunked 9th grade???? I had to sit and listen to staff me tell me that an "education" was a waste. I guess they didn't want anyone smarter than them too much of a threat.
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Could it be Art was clueless, sucked in by the power and adoration, he probably began to see himself as a savior, because everyone kept telling him he was. Who knows? Shit, even Jim Jones started out pretty good. I saw Art, for the first time as an old comer, flip out over something so trivial it was pathetic. IMHO he is a sad pathetic little man. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Imagine his power, over kids that really needed PROFESSIONAL help......sick. Not like he tried holding power over "normal" people, they were kids and parents that were in crisis.
I never saw anyone being physically assaulted, but I would have gladly taken that over the imprisonment I had to endure. At least bruises heal, emotional scars last a lifetime, and that is what many here are trying to tell you. I blocked so much out...and I mean really blocked it out, because it was just to painful.
Would it be that hard for you to say.......I'm sorry for what you went through? If I had known that I would have tried to help. For some reason that would make me feel validated. Is it that hard for you to acknowledge that? I realize it can be a little intense here, but you seem to really provoke a lot of it yourself. Walk a day in my shoes....then talk to me.
I deal with people like you everyday, and everyday I feel like hitting my head up against the wall. You just don't get it.
My brother came to an open meeting after I had been, for the lack of a better term "brainwashed". You almost didn't let him in, you might remember him John. Big blonde guy, tattoo and an earring. The staff tried to keep him out. He took leave from the Navy after he found out what my mother had done to my little brother and I. You and Darlene glared at him the whole time we talked after the meeting. Even had a staff member sit while we talked. He told me then "just say the word and you are out of here". Like a good little programmed kid I told him I needed the Seed. I would have loved to see him take out the staff......lol Daydreamed about that for a while.
Anyway....guess I have rambled enough. As one of my teens would say....whatever.....
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Excellent post Jupiter. Your right, Underwood is and was clueless. He certainly didn't get it then perhaps he will start to get it now.
Your post illustrates a fatal flaws in the Seed, or other similar programs approach, what about the kids who had problems other than occassional drug use? What about kids who were abused physically or sexually? What about kids who had bad parents? What about a kid with any other problem in the world? Underwood and his staff were truly incabable and unable to deal with this.
If you read Underwood's initial post , and others that followed, he demonstrates his own lack of understanding beyond any reasonable doubt. Underwood claims he got it from day 1 on the first row? Got what? Milk? The only thing he got was brainwashed, hoodwinked and used up by Barker.
I realize that maybe 10%-20% of the people in the Seed were hard core drug addicts/junkies like Underwood and Libby. That some of these people may have even benefited in some way from the Seed. But what about the other 80-90%?
You can take almost any type of treatment method and achieve some success in terms of getting people to quit using drugs. If you sent 100 physically addicted drug addicts to prison for 2 years some of them would quit using. Does this mean prisons should become the prefered method of treatment? Underwood never understood that one size does not fit all.
Your post also touches on another topic, "Crappy Parents". The Seed enabled many lousy parents to simply dump their problems off at SR84 or some other facility. The parents were told what they wanted to hear, that it was their children that were the cause of all the problems and not them In addition the Seed would send them a nice wonderful well behaved kid in just 14 or so days. That was just to friggin good to pass up.
Underwood also doesn't understand that he was probably used worse than anyone else. For six years he gave his blood & guts to a cult with a pipe dream. Every cult requires true believers with some ability and presence. Underwood fit the mold to a "T". Without Underwood's commitment and drive the Seed would have a much smaller impact than it did. He had 10 times the ability of Libby or anyome else in there. He was the blood and guts of the place while I was there. At the end of six years he was like a championship racehorse, with no breeding ability, put out to pasture. He was no longer useful so therefore he became expendable.
I also agree with your assesm,ent of Barker. He was just an ego tripping bastard who one day will rot forever in hell.
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"Your post also touches on another topic, "Crappy Parents". The Seed enabled many lousy parents to simply dump their problems off at SR84 or some other facility. The parents were told what they wanted to hear, that it was their children that were the cause of all the problems and not them In addition the Seed would send them a nice wonderful well behaved kid in just 14 or so days. That was just to friggin good to pass up. "
Now you really have no idea what you are talking about... :cry2:
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Please elaborate !, I am not sure about the time frame when you were in there but when I was in there their were parents who left their kids off at the Seed because they couldn't deal with them. Not every Seed parent was a good parent. In my family I had one good one and one bad one.
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I was there in 74......the dates are very fuzzy...I originally thought it was 73. Like I said the brain blocked that and a lot of other things out. I remember it was late September and I was in 9th grade. It was a little over a year when I graduated. There were quite a few of us from Jupiter, Stuart and Palm Beach Gardens.
When were you there?
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I was in Broward(State Road 84) from Fall of '73-July '74. Prior to that Dade.
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FurLaw,
I was in the Seed the same time as you on SR84
and I don't remember seeing John U all that much back then. I was there march of 73 till 75 , I believe John was somewhere else during that time, He did show up every now and then. I also agree with FtLauderdale, the blame is on your parents. Why on earth did they put you in the seed?, I quess you were an angel.
When I did deal with John U , He was pretty decent to me, Once after the group came down on me for something petty John called me up to his office and asked me what was wrong , he seemed to be very sensitive to my feelings. He listened to what I had to say, gave me a pat on the back and told me to go back to the group.
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On 2005-09-28 15:07:00, rjfro22 wrote:
I also agree with FtLauderdale, the blame is on your parents. Why on earth did they put you in the seed?, I quess you were an angel.
Being at least 40 yourself by now and, therefore, privy to the real behind the scenes lives and personalities of other old farts, why in the world would you just take it for granted that any of the parents must have had good reasons? Once an intake "interview" started they rarely ever resulted in anything but a fresh butt on front row. The decision to initiate the intake was entirely subjective. In my case, my mom was a 2nd generation Oxford believer and Art said druggie attitudes (any behavior or belief that made her uncomfortable) could be cured by his magical methods at the onset of adolescance. She believed him. She's not the only one. Turns out a LOT of Seedlings made up out of whole cloth their past drug use stories just to get off front row.
In large part, a lot of kids landed up there who never had anything close to a drug problem because John and the rest of staff, group and parents were so very sincere and, therefore, very convincing in their belief that every kid presented probably would have taken up a habit eventually.
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools and colleges and recitation rooms for ten or fifteen years and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Obviously we were there together, at least the 9-10 months of the program I spent in Broward. At that time they had closed Dade and were going pretty strong in St. Pete & Broward. I did a refresher and start over during that time and remember seeing alot of Mr. Underwood. I realize he was also at the other facilities too.
Let me clarify the stuff I said about some "Parents". All I am saying is that some of the kids parents used the Seed as a crutch or escape for their own shortcomings as parents. They were frustrated and maybe lacked understanding of their children and used the Seed as a place to put them and to deal with them. In addition when a parent contacted the Seed or went to an intake interview they were told that the Seed would straighten their kid out in just two short weeks. ::unhappy:: [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-09-28 15:33 ]
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On 2005-09-28 15:29:00, FueLaw wrote:
I dont blame her. I blame the liars on staff who did my intake interview.
I think it's useful to discuss both sides of the issue. How I wish our parents were net savvy and willing to talk w/ the struggling parents over on the program support/recruiting forums.
I am happy Underwood was decent to you. I am not saying he was a SOB 100% of the time.
I don't think there are any 100% SOBs in the whole mix. Ok, maybe some, as in any crowd. But I think they find good purchase in an authoritarian structure where they will not be questioned. Power corrupts, it sure does.
But you know what they say about good intentions.
If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"--
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn
Wicked men obey from fear, good men from love.
--Aristotle
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Antigen,
How come the Seed did not accept you ?
If they just wanted to fill up the 1st row.
Didn't your parents try to get you in........
How come you were spared.
We love you
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Well, I've gotten a couple of versions; one from my mom, one from John. They both agree that my parents tried to put me in and that staff said no. Mom says Art cited 'no newcomers who had been through rehab'. She has not always had a real close relationship w/ objective reality. John says it was that I didn't need it, that I wasn't a druggie. But it's hard for me to believe that, having hitchhiked up the Eastern seaboard leaving an empty pot baggie under my mattress.
So I still don't know the reason why. Maybe they were afraid I'd bring about a mass revolt. Maybe their stories had changed and I had been a wittness to the original versions. I really haven't got any way to get a better answer. I think I'd need a time machine to find out.
What do you think? Or what do you know? I'm not sure who you are, do you know something I don't?
--
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Antigen,
Thank you for the answer. I really did not know much about the inside workings of the Seed until this forum.
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On 2005-09-28 07:30:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
""Your post also touches on another topic, "Crappy Parents". The Seed enabled many lousy parents to simply dump their problems off at SR84 or some other facility. The parents were told what they wanted to hear, that it was their children that were the cause of all the problems and not them In addition the Seed would send them a nice wonderful well behaved kid in just 14 or so days. That was just to friggin good to pass up. "
Now you really have no idea what you are talking about... :cry2: "
Oh a major BULLSHIT on you.
My parents were told specifically that all the problems in the family were the cause of drugs. There was even a catchy little phrase "the first time it wasn't your fault, the next time it will be" meaning that if the parents just blindly and unquestionably followed the seed, all would be well
And...when I got off my "10 to 10" and was only supposed to come so many days a week, my parents made my sister and I go to the seed everyday and both weekend days because they were busy trying to start a business, in addition to turning over ALL the household chores to us, all of them.
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On 2005-09-28 15:16:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-09-28 15:07:00, rjfro22 wrote:
I also agree with FtLauderdale, the blame is on your parents. Why on earth did they put you in the seed?, I quess you were an angel.
Turns out a LOT of Seedlings made up out of whole cloth their past drug use stories just to get off front row.
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There was something else going on as well. The culture of the seed gave cred to those that really were hard "on the streets", even hurrying them thru the program, giving more weight to what they said, and grooming them for staff. Once one submitted himself to the idea of giving into the madness and going for the ride, it was a natural tendency for the youngsters to try to pony up and make it seem like they really had a problem.
I remember specifically making things sound much more severe and worse than they really were, because I thought that would further along my selfish cause, to earn my way out of that hellhole.
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Gregfl,
How did your parents find out about the Seed?
What possessed them so seek out help for you.?
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I also agree with your assesm,ent of Barker. He was just an ego tripping bastard who one day will rot forever in hell.
So....what will he do the next day?
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Are you kidding me? First, "A seed of hope" was running on channel 44 all the time. Second, all the rage in St Pete was to commit your kids. Third, my step siblings got committed 4 days or so before I did, and then they asked the group who had done drugs with their brother and sister.
At the time I was committed to the seed, while no angel, I was living with my mom in ft lauderdale and had not even smoked a joint in over a month. my father, on instruction from staff in st pete, made up a lie about wanting to see us and drove us from Ft lauderdale right to the st pete seed where we were badgered by Mrs Peterman. If the allegations about the guy that did my strip search are true, I was strip searched by a rapist.
I was threatened and lied to for hours before they had me sign the paper, and they kept coming back from the group with first names of kids in the group that were claiming they did this drug or that drug with me or my sister, and in the final analysis was threatened with my father declaring me incorrigible and sending me to the infamous SPJD center for a rousing round of anal rape if I didn't sign myself in for "just three days..if you don't like it after that you can go".
Honesty was what again? The first and most what?
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Antigen- It sounds like you are alot more like your mother than you would like to see. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
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I remember that my grandmother (who lived with us) told me that staff was asking my mom about kids that hung out with names and addresses. She was told to talk to those parents and try to "save" those kids. Amway meets the Moonies....kind of like a pyramid scam, only they didn't get commissions, just that nice fuzzy feeling that they are saving the world from the evils of drugs. Art and the senior staff constantly were telling the parents that is was their duty to spread the word.
I know I was no angel, but my family life was.....well let me just say very few people I have met have had worse. My mother dumped us at churches, Christian schools, where ever she could, with whoever would take us. The school I was at before the Seed was Berean Baptist in WPB. Of course I didn't fit in there either. Even after graduating the Seed, I was told by that principle that girls like me would never change. I figured why bother trying, was damned if I do, damned if I don't. When I started dating my husband, I can still remember my mom telling me not to screw that up like I did everything else....in a sense she was dumping me on him. To this day my mom still has never said "I am proud of you". She still thinks that the Seed was the best thing to happened to her.....er us. Crap, it probably was. My brother and I were gone almost a year, it was a vacation of sorts for her. I didn't realize at the time that my Aunts and Uncles were very upset that she had put us in the Seed. Although they didn't know the extent of our family life, they knew that is wasn't normal.
I really think that parents were different in the 70's. My mom was actually 2 generations older than me. I never even owed a pair of jeans till I was 14. She was still under the "children should be seen not heard" mind set. Most of my friends, like myself are very involved in their children's lives. She had 3 failed marriages, all alcoholic and physically abusive. My oldest brother had to finally take a gun after my dad and make my mom leave and he was only 17. That left her emotionally dead and unable to be a loving parent. I am lucky to have a great relationship with kids. My oldest is in College in Boca and we talk to each other every day. I had a good example of what not to be.
Some survive, some give up.....I teetered between the two for a long time. Ultimately I survived and took charge of my life. The process was not easy or quick. The only thing I have not managed to conquer is smoking........which was almost encouraged at the Seed. Amazing....14 years old and my mom brought my brother and I a carton of smokes every week.
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Part of the unofficial seed uniform of the st pete seed was a white tee shirt with a top pocket....for your marboros of course. I smoked every fucking chance I got to dull the pain and to make me fit in with the older kids.
Kind of ironic that my stepfather died from cigarretes and my mother is in the process of dying from them. The only drug that has killed anyone in my family was endorsed and encouraged at the seed, even for little children.
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I also started smoking in the Seed. It took me around 20 tries over many years to quit.
Remember this rule: "Smoking on the hour or when the rap leader smokes". I am sure there was good reason for this rule. Maybe Underwood or some other enlightened staff member could tell us. I even remember discussing this rule during rules rap.
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Because people were smoking too much. It was to cut back on all the smoking. Hardly anyone smoked in the last 20 years.
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I did a few drugs after I left the Seed, nothing major just a little pot. My brother on the other hand, who says the Seed was great has been on dugs since he left. He dropped out of school in 9th grade and his drug use is so bad he doesn't even have a nose. My brother Hobby has been homeless numerous times, his life is in shambles, but if you ask him about the Seed it's "Yep they really helped me".
I am very curious as to what career fields the members of this board are in, especially the ex-staff. Did the Seed experience play any part of that choice?
I stayed at home a few of years while the kids ( 5 kids...10,12,14,16 & 22) were little. I did mostly charity work during those years. Had a few small businesses I started and then sold, nothing major but it added the little extra's to life. I am currently volunteering in a mental health support group (son is Bi-polar and myself dealing with molestation) and making enemies of the local school board. Money has never been a big thing for me, my heart is in working to try to make things better. Being thrown in the Seed has made me sensitive to those who don't fit in what "we" consider normal. I see many kids and parents of children with mental illness and/or learning disabilities that are misdiagnosed, over medicated, throw in behavioral classes or hospitals because of lack of information and choices. I feel compelled to give a voice to those who that no one is listening to. Mostly in part because in my youth, no one ever spoke up for me. Although I am not very assertive with things in my life, I am a force to be reckoned with for my children and others ( this is a constant amusement for my husband).
My life has been very influenced by the Seed.....just decided to turn it into something good instead of letting it eat me alive.
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Jupiter,
My post-Seed careers have been:
A. Art Education (High School)
B. Museum administration and exhibit design
C. Non-profit community development
I went to art school right after the Seed, eventually getting my master's degree in education. I did some work as a studio artist, but found that I didn't like the 'sales' part of it (ironically I am currently getting licensed in real estate!) I probably would have gone into the mental health field if I had a psych background, but I didn't. I went thru a lot of therapy myself, went into Adult Children of Alcoholics, Al Anon, etc. too. (My mom is bipolar most likely with alcoholism). I am very interested in understanding family systems, obviously, and my concern for this issue now extends to society, so I am trying to understand how to make a difference here, hence my current career. My biggest career move right now is my first child, at age 46, so that is the top priority and so much fun.
If I hadn't gone into the Seed? I really don't know, except that I might have completed my schooling much sooner - I took 7 years of Seed-time out.
Walter
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"My brother on the other hand, who says the Seed was great has been on dugs since he left."
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That's the strange disconnect. If you are strongly pro-seed but keep using drugs or regularly relapsing...are you considered a success story? If you are strongly critical of the program but have remained drug-free...are you considered a failure? I think this disconnect is pretty common. I used to manage a radio station and I once fired a guy for being sloppy drunk while on the air. He was delivering a monologue to his listeners about how wonderful AA is...all while drunk.
[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2005-09-30 09:20 ]
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I think this is how it went, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Around '83, A yr after I moved down there, maybe a little earlier Art had a problem with his heart and was advised to quit smoking. Therefore smoking was banned at the Seed, at least in the bldg. Some guys and maybe girls still smoked elsewhere. I can't be certain. I used to ride around with Bob K and he would smoke.
I lived out in Davie at Bob W's house and sometimes I would ride out west of Davie, going to the bank, near the Everglades, and have a smoke. I was busted a few times for having a cigarette while I stayed the night.
Staff told me I didn't need 'em, because now I was loved. (smile) I was certainly not comfortable enough to give up the only thing that gave me any sense of relief then.
Maybe a yr after the no smoking rule, Art had another heart problem and required a procedure of some sort. This initiated the "get healthy" rule. Prior to this the "girls made cookies, candy, that kind of thing and would bring it into the group. Not after that.
So, the point is the Seed mirrored Art's behavior and ideaology at the time. It changed as Art changed.
But, Art would still say in the group all the time he never changed because he was perfect.This idea was constantly repeated in raps. We had to change to come to Art's level. But, it was highly unlikely we ever would. Maybe the "blue bloods", but not the "workers".
Thanks for the proletariat!
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On 2005-09-30 08:58:00, marshall wrote:
That's the strange disconnect. If you are strongly pro-seed but keep using drugs or regularly relapsing...are you considered a success story? If you are strongly critical of the program but have remained drug-free...are you considered a failure?
That's been my experience, or pretty close. Though I've never sworn off drugs, I have gone years w/o ever purchasing so much as a dime bag of pot or a 6-pack of beer. Why? I had kids to feed, bills to pay and no really good career options. I simply couldn't afford it.
On the other hand, I have two brothers who have struggled constantly w/ substance abuse and other compulsion issues. But they both do the stepcraft boogie on a regular basis, and so they're members in good standing of what used to be my family.
It seems to be the rhetoric that matters. If you blame all your own asshole moves on some recreational activity or other, then you're a good person deserving of love, acceptance, support and kindness. If you take responsibility for your own actions and insist that drugs are not controling anybody, well then you get the bum's rush.
As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2005-09-30 05:15:00, Jupiter Survivor wrote:
"I did a few drugs after I left the Seed, nothing major just a little pot. My brother on the other hand, who says the Seed was great has been on dugs since he left.
How typical...
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On 2005-09-30 11:06:00, wtaylorg wrote:
"I think this is how it went, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Around '83, A yr after I moved down there, maybe a little earlier Art had a problem with his heart and was advised to quit smoking. Therefore smoking was banned at the Seed,
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Even more typical...
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On 2005-09-30 11:30:00, Antigen wrote:
It seems to be the rhetoric that matters.
It sure does..
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smoking was still permitted at the seed in the mid 80s
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In 1974 I seem to rememember about 1/2 & 1/2 as far as smokers, I saw far less in AA some 18 years later, but still smoking & drinkin coffee were acceptable drugs vs. the booze. I know for myself quitting was the hardest thing I have done. Much harder than getting straight, much harder than giving up the drinking, the hardest. I started at 13 y/o & the 1st time I quit at 25 I managed for 11 years to stay off them. But at that time I had put on weight and I noticed it really pissed off my wife if I smoked so I picked them back up on / off for about 4-5 years. I did not smoke in the house, I did not smoke in front of the kids (sounds familiar doesn't it?) At 40 I could not see myself continuing to smoke, even if I was only smoking 8- 10 a day, it had become a disgusting habit again. That time I used the patch, started with medium 2 weeks, then the lowest 2 weeks, then cold turkey. That was 8 1/2 years ago. I look at it as one of my hardest accomplishments, I still battle my weight thou...
Back in 74' it definitely was more acceptable and dare I say "cool" there was a pretty big group of Seedlings that smoked Marlborough Menthol greens, a staff member Roger ......... this was his poison and of course we all wanted to be like him...