Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 14, 2005, 09:33:00 AM
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What exactly happened? There seems to be a mystery here that no one wants to resolve. Can someone please explain the story of "The Final Days" in detail. . .once and for all?????
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Unfortunately, you'd probably have to get it from Art or Libby... & they ain't talkin.... :smile:
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WELL. ONCE AGAIN I GUESS NO ONE HAS THE COURAGE TO ADDRESS THE GREAT MYSTERY OF THE FINAL DAYS. NOTICE YOU ALL TALK AND TALK BUT HAVE NOT REALLY VENTURED TO TELL US THE DETAILS OF THE FINAL DAYS.
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On 2005-06-17 21:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WELL. ONCE AGAIN I GUESS NO ONE HAS THE COURAGE TO ADDRESS THE GREAT MYSTERY OF THE FINAL DAYS. NOTICE YOU ALL TALK AND TALK BUT HAVE NOT REALLY VENTURED TO TELL US THE DETAILS OF THE FINAL DAYS."
Who really gives a s**t about the "FINAL DAYS" :roll: Will 'THE TRUTH' finally set these angry, bitter, resentful, dysfunctional souls free? I think not! Dorothy and her pals realized they didn't need the Wizard after all...the passion to change was in them all along...
You came through it or you didn't - GET OVER IT!!
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apparently the poster cares about the final days. Maybe this poster devoted a substantial portion of his life to the cult and would like to know more about how it ended. Or maybe he/she is just curious. I see no harm in that.
I don't think "get over it" is a very sensitive or thought provoking response, nor is insinuting someone is disfunctional because they aren't privy to the "final days" story.
I know of it but I am really not a first person teller and would just butcher the story up and get it wrong.
Basically Libby gathered a group of supporters and confronted Art and Shelly at his house over some "issues" and Art threw them out. After this the remaining lifers split down "pro libby" or "pro Art" factions.
I would really rather someone who was there or closer to the situation tell it please.....
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Who really gives a s**t about the "FINAL DAYS" :roll: Will 'THE TRUTH' finally set these angry, bitter, resentful, dysfunctional souls free? I think not! Dorothy and her pals realized they didn't need the Wizard after all...the passion to change was in them all along...
You came through it or you didn't - GET OVER IT!!
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I could live to regret this, but I gotta respond.
Frankly, I think insensitive holes like you with your "get over comments" are - well, you must be under the spell of the evil witch coven of Mel and Betty Sembler. That's Betty's response to the children of Straight who are so damamged by that program - which was a rip-off of the seed.
Get over it? Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and see what's happening around you? Folks need to get over it? To be blunt about it, and based solely on your response, you need to wake the fuck up.
The silence of the old guard, I suspect, comes from one of two places:
It's yet another control game with puppet-speakers doing the dirty work of creating shame and doubt in those who would ask questions and demand answers.
OR
The old guard does not possess the moral fortitude and personal intergrity necessary to step up to plate and accept responsiblity for the good and the bad that came from their actions.
Gee, Anon, if you are such a seed buff and supporter, how come the rule about making amends doesn't apply in this case?
The way I see it, your karma runs over your dogma.... [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-19 19:17 ]
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I think what everybody wants to know is the what. About what did Libby confront Art? What's the dish? Can't you guess? Does it matter? Think Art maybe fell to human frailty and stated getting flakey in his old age? Maybe that didn't fit w/ his godlike status among followers? And that caused friction? Maybe Libby, for all her faults, actually internalized some of the double entendre shit about honesty and integrity and just didn't want to lie anymore to support the mythology? Maybe she hit middle age and found it was time to quit playing Barbies and play horses?
I doubt we'll ever get much more detail. I'm sure it's all very painful and confusing to those involved. But it's still a valid question. After all, the principle characters involved certainly never had any respect for our privacy. Two way street, friends. We're just returing the favor; trying to keep you straight. :rofl: Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
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The silence of the old guard, I suspect, comes from one of two places:
It's yet another control game with puppet-speakers doing the dirty work of creating shame and doubt in those who would ask questions and demand answers.
OR
The old guard does not possess the moral fortitude and personal intergrity necessary to step up to plate and accept responsiblity for the good and the bad that came from their actions.
Gee, Anon, if you are such a seed buff and supporter, how come the rule about making amends doesn't apply in this case?
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-19 19:17 ]"
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I doubt we'll ever get much more detail. I'm sure it's all very painful and confusing to those involved. But it's still a valid question. After all, the principal characters involved certainly never had any respect for our privacy. Two way street, friends. We're just returing the favor; trying to keep you straight
I could not agreee more with Antigen's and Stripe's quotes above. The saddest part of the story is that the principal parties have decided to live a lie rather than truly humble themselves as all of us had to plenty of times in their presence. When it comes to their own "sh-t" it is much too sacred for them to ask for forgiveness or, God forbid, forgive others. Stripe is right on the money: their silence of never wanting to speak the truth to those in the lower ranks, such as myself, caused me to lose almost all of a lifetime of friendships. . ."These are the greatest friends you will ever have or can ever ask for." Remember that quote? The principal parties really did not care about the bonds that they themselves had helped me to create for years. When it came time to saving face as opposed to admitting and helping all to continue their lives and cultivated friendships, they promoted cutting ties and loyalties with all those opposed. Wow, thanks for at least having the decency to let me know you were going to pull the rug under me after 20 years and that now you expect me to cut ties with the very friends you for so many years let me know you had so much respect for and as a matter of fact, I should look up to these friends of mine and respect them because they are, after all, better, greater, and wiser souls than me. The principal parties sure waved the flag for many people, making sure they were held up as the "examples" of stregth, fortitude, courage, success, and riches, but when it came time to tear them down, boy people started coming down those pedestals on a high speed elevator.
But it's O.K. From now on, I'd rather go at it alone or with friends that are much more comfortable showing me real feelings, not just a programmed smile that is criticizing and questioning my every move in relation to how I feel about THEM. [ This Message was edited by: 80's Guy on 2005-06-20 06:00 ]
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Right on, '80s guy!
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Why don't one of you people that really know the story in detail lay it out here once and for all. You can do it anonymously.
I think it is only fair to the people who were locked up and forced to worship these people, that they get to find out how this dark little fairy tale ended.
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Greg would you like to give us the dirt on your whole entire family. I think not. Some things are left better unsaid. It involves illness and greed all the typical ingredients found in most all american families.
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On 2005-06-20 09:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg would you like to give us the dirt on your whole entire family. I think not. Some things are left better unsaid. It involves illness and greed all the typical ingredients found in most all american families. "
Anon,
If you have read any of the subject matters on this forum you would see where every person who posts with a screen name has put their "dirt" out there. Your cynicism is really misplaced.
When it comes to atoning for the lives destroyed, really, the position should be that there are NOT ENOUGH words to express the sorrow, regret and remorse the programmers should feel for what they did, not that such statements remain better unsaid. Read the 80's guy post again and tell me you don't think he is entitled to an explanation.
I think it's tragically ironic that the programmers who demanded honesty are thoroughly incapable of demonstrating such traits in the REAL world. I guess for them this refusal to acknowledge what happend (from the 1971 inception to closing) is just another character ?de?fault that Anon would like to attribute to a dysfunctional family.
Maybe we give them far too much credit for character traits they are simply incapable of possessing or understanding. Maybe we expect too much because our journeys have taught us lessons about this past that the programers could never understand. When life gets difficult, it is much easier to leave the painful things unsaid and unacknowledged. But easy does not equate with right. Hey! That sure is one big-ass white elephant in the room, don't you think?
The programmers, be they ill or greedy or in any other state, still owe an explanation to every person whose life they touched and destroyed - no matter how painful, difficult or embarrassing it might be for them. My perception of the programmers is that they think they are above all law, both natural and enacted. This lawlessness just reinforces my very, very low opinions of them.
Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Edition
Natural Law: ...a system of rules and principles for the guidance of human conduct which, independently of enacted law or the systems peculiar to any one people, might be discovered by rational intelligence of man, and would be found to grow out of and conform to his nature, meaning by that word, his whole mental, moral and physical constitution.
Putting that into seed-talk language that the programmers will understand: Do the right thing and the right thing will happen.
Most sincerely,
Stripe
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Well I can't speak for Greg, but I personally didn't enjoy it one bit when Art decided to make hay out of my family's personal business. Didn't enjoy seeing my sister stand up before a crowd at open meeting and describe herself as the most horrible kind of girl. Didn't like seeing my brother cry and similarly confess. Didn't enjoy being constantly questioned, surveiled and accused as I tried to dodge that bullet growing up.
Yeah, I see your point. None of that is very nice to experience. Funny how the elites are so terribly sensitive about their own dirty laundry, huh?
If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--
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I seem to remember being forced to stand up in front of thousands (yes, when I was there sometimes up to 700 kids, both their parents, prospective parents, grandparents, "interested parties" and the press) and confess my darkest secrets. I had to do this or continue my suffering. I remember specifically Art the weasel asking direct questions of the group..how many did this, how many stole, how many lied, cheated..etc... as my hand sheapishly went up and my parents and others that knew me eyes drilled right thru me. I remember feeling sexually humiliated and asked to tell stories about my sexuality or lack thereof in "boys rap" in front of my entire group of high school people.
Now I am supposed to feel sorry for these tyrannical dipshits because they had a falling out and could not continue the facade?
My families secrets have already been laid bare "anon", and I continue to give of myself in hopes that others can heal from this mess and still others may have the heart not to sentence their children to a lifetime of self loathing and questioning.
Absolutely I think someone should step up to the plate here. I have heard tthe story but cannot tell it with any degree of accuracy. Someone should, and they should now, if only to correct a wrong done to 90s guy and the others that dedicated their entire young adult and middle years to a lie unwittingly.
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On 2005-06-20 09:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg would you like to give us the dirt on your whole entire family. I think not. Some things are left better unsaid. It involves illness and greed all the typical ingredients found in most all american families. "
This was supposedly "our family". I think this is the very least gift that someone that knows could give back...a rundown on why "the family" split up.
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Once upon a time blah blah blah- yada yadda yadda .
Hopefully everyone lived happily ever after.
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Hey 80's guy,
I noticed from re-reading your post that the programmers expected you to use the old Idon'twannatalktoyou routine to deal with the aftermath of their problem.
What that proves to me is that really none of what they attempted to program into us was useful in real world situations. Programmers have proved that it's easy to live life when you refuse to confront the problems and leave things unsaid. Not easier for us, but surely easier for them.
I know how hard it was for me to tow that line between the age of 15 and 17 and not have contact with the druggies - which under seed definitons was practically everyone else in the world. I can't imagine what it must have been like, as an adult, to be expected to suddenly cut your friends out of your life - and to then find out it was all misguided loyalty. As a youngster, I did it so that I could get out of that place. But to have gone through that as an adult must have been really difficult. More power to you.
I hope someday we do get the responses we justly deserve - but I'm not holding my breath.
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On 2005-06-20 12:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Once upon a time blah blah blah- yada yadda yadda .
Hopefully everyone lived happily ever after."
What a nice, thoughtful reply Anon. Tell your programmers I personally said thanks. But you didn't come up with that all on your own, did you?[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-20 13:27 ]
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On 2005-06-20 12:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Once upon a time blah blah blah- yada yadda yadda .
Hopefully everyone lived happily ever after."
your a nut
but a good nut!
::bigsmilebounce::
:grin:
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"Some things are left better unsaid."
Reading this, I can picture a newcomer being asked to stand up and relate / confess all of the drugs, crimes, selfish actions...all the dirt, real or imagined, in front of the group. Staff awaits the reply and the newcomer responds with; "Some things are better left unsaid." :lol: That response would have gone over really well, I'm sure.
or
Q. "Have you been fantasizing & getting into your head again?"
A. "That's not important."
Q. "How many of you have lied or stolen"?
A. " Uh, I'd rather not air my dirty laundry in public."
Better left unsaid...better for whom?
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Yep stripe I cudn't possibly of thunk that up all by my self. I'm too ignurent fur that.
I asked my programers they thunked it up by their own selves and wrote it real big so I could repete it. ::bigsmilebounce::
Greg, I like you too. ::bigsmilebounce::
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On 2005-06-20 10:59:00, Stripe wrote:
On 2005-06-20 09:51:00,
I think it's tragically ironic that the programmers who demanded honesty are thoroughly incapable of demonstrating such traits in the REAL world.
Maybe we give them far too much credit for character traits they are simply incapable of possessing or understanding. Maybe we expect too much because our journeys have taught us lessons about this past that the programers could never understand. When life gets difficult, it is much easier to leave the painful things unsaid and unacknowledged. But easy does not equate with right. Hey! That sure is one big-ass white elephant in the room, don't you think?
I agree completely with Stripe. Honesty was a one way streeet at that place, and it was not just staff or higher up's who were allowed to preserve their silence. Many who were held in high regard by those in power were awarded the luxury of silence when it came to personal mistakes that had negatively affected other people in ways that went way beyond any mistakes I was confessing in the group.
It was amazing how we were kept in our place by the same people that were SILENT about their own shortcomings. It was only after being forced to admit or look like a total fool that they coughed up the censored version of, "Well, I haven't been perfect either." Of course, that is better than saying nothing at all when you and the few followers you have left are staring at the same "white elephant" in the same small room.
There is no way that those people (who essentially were strangers as far as I am concerned today) ever took the time to stop talking--to listen--about themselves and got to know me inside. Instead, they knew how to blow their own horns, but ironically, as Stripe said, many of them were incapable of using some of the new agey ideas they professed to :wave: find concrete solutions to their real problems, in the REAL world :wave: . If they had been able to find effective answers that would have solved (as other humnan beings have to solve on a daily basis) the serious issues that were bringing that group to an end (after all, they were as close as "family"). However, they did not have the tools ncessary to really solve real problems as informed, intelligent human beings. They could not function as balanced, independent thinkers that make decisions based on THE TRUTH. Plain and simple, they cannot be HONEST IN THE REAL WORLD--supposedly, THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT RULE. The results are individuals, who are skewed in their thinking and refuse to deal with the real problems that they have helped to create.
Many, if not almost all of those people, that I wasted(?) so many years of my life with have little to say beyond a superficial smile because anything beyond that is considered a "problem" that is "better left unsaid." And as far as I am concerened, it is they who needed real help, perhaps real counseling or therapy to learn how to deal with everyday isssues, such as problems in marriages, friendships, relationships, career, etc. Just as I have needed in my life and maybe someday I will find myself in a place where I can benefit from real help. Instead decisions at that place were made based on FEAR, INSECURITY, GREED, and POWER.
By the way, all of these are emotions thast I have felt and acted on many times in my own life, but have had to either confess to in front of a crowded warehouse full of strangers (as Greg put it)or learned to deal with them falling on my face over and over again. But I am no longer afraid of feeling because I realize more than ever that the "happiness" I claimed to feel for all those years was really a numbing of authentic feelings: I forgot what it was to really feel: hurt, loneliness, regret, passion, shame, embarassment, love, selfishness, etc, . . Because I was taught for many years that all of these were inferior to something called "happiness," which looked like a fearful smile plastered on my face, wondering when would be the next time I was going to be told that I was not good enough.
I have no resentments, but I refuse to beleive that there is anything wrong with expecting truth from people, on all sides, regarding a significant period of my life when I was also there for them for a "very long, long ride."
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Hey Anon,
Here's lesson I learned from my dear old dad...
a hit dog always hollers.
an fer most folks its spelt "coodena"
:smile:
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-21 12:05 ]
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80's guy,
I sent you a Private Message.
Stripe
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Here's a lesson I learned from my dear old Dad may he rest in peace...
You give me the red ass.
Oh Ya, ::rocker:: sorry it really wasn't a lesson it was more of a saying that I heard quite often durring my teen years. ::kma:: ::kma::
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Whenever I got called on to do Honesty in Rules rap, I used to say "Honesty, the first and most impotent rule." Never got called on it, either. It was just my own inside joke.
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford
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People and groups of people who demand one-way honesty will always tend to abuse this privilege. the Seed expression - 'That's not important' is right up there with 'Do as I say, not as I do' and 'This is for your own good' as sure-fire bullshit red flags.
Institutions, goverments and organizations that I want to be involved with are open, transparent and solicit the opinions of all involved. Wait a minute - like this forum!
Bravo, 80s guy. Keep writing. Someday we'll meet at a Seed reunion!
PS - Stripe, I love ya but I hate it when you say, the programmers. Us and them? You know, I wanted to help others and thought I was doing the right thing. I bought in - I guess I was a programmer too - the Seed couldn't make it without the Rank and File. Did anyone, from Art on down, not think that they were doing good?
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so clever
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sorry wally I was saying that to Antigen.
but I do think you are pretty clever too.
or Antigen should I say Wally is pretty Cleaver.
get it Wally Cleaver. you know like beaver cleaver. :rofl:
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sorry wally I was saying that to Antigen.
but I do think you are pretty clever too.
or Antigen should I say Wally is pretty Cleaver.
get it Wally Cleaver. you know like beaver cleaver. :rofl:
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80's guy - I do agree w/ you on lots of things that you brought up during the last days.
I spent most of my life at the Seed and there was good and bad. I guess I never really saw the bad until after everyting split up. I started to see things more clearly. In a way I still feel resentful towards the staff that started this whole thing. I felt like they did an enormous amount of damage to so many people.
I was told along w/ others all of these negative things about Art and some of the things I knew for certrain were not even true. I feel like the reason they did things was for Greed, Power and Selfishness. I deeply resent being pulled into all of their sh***.
To me this was the worst thing that ever happened in my life. I never felt so confused and torn about everything. I also did not understand why everything happened. Nothing seemed to make sense and then I was put into a position to go one way or the other.
I know that I was not one of the chosen also. I always felt like I was not as good as those in charge. I guess now that I think about it I was probably made to feel that way.
There is an awful lot that I learned from the experience. I guess I learned how to stand on my own two feet and to think about how I really felt about things.
There was lots of good things also. I know on a few occasions Lybbie went out of her way to help me through some rough times. I also had a few great friends that I could talk to about anything and knew they would always look out for my best interest. I had a special closeness w/ them that I have never found anywhere else. I have had friends not from the Seed but there was not that special bond.
When I was reading your post it saddened me to think about what was lost. I do miss so many things.
I guess I am still trying to figure things out. Maybe I never really will figure it all out.
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Sounds like you are doing a great job anon of working thru this stuff.
Why don't you just go ahead and tell the story...let 80s guy and some of the others off the hook here.
I would really appreciate it.
Cleveland, I agree with something you said. There should be no "us and them" mentality here..we share a common goal and a common bond.
We cannot all agree, for one reason all our experiences are not the same, and we shouldn't demand it of each other.
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anyone ever think that a shy little chubby kid called Beaver may grow up with some "issues"?
:grin:
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thanks Anon. If ur comfortable tell us a little more about u.
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On 2005-06-19 19:16:00, Stripe wrote:
Frankly, I think insensitive holes like you with your "get over comments" are - well, you must be under the spell of the evil witch coven of Mel and Betty Sembler...
Get over it? Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and see what's happening around you? Folks need to get over it? To be blunt about it, and based solely on your response, you need to wake the fuck up.
Gee, Anon, if you are such a seed buff and supporter, how come the rule about making amends doesn't apply in this case?
The way I see it, your karma runs over your dogma....
Ooohh, I think I detect a wee bit of hostility??
That was a great PERSONAL attack Stripe :wave:
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Hostility? Sure. Misplaced? How so?
And why do you go all balistic whenever this topic comes up? Why, I do believe your closing off! Put your hands down at your side! What are you hiding??
:rofl:
Seriously, though, why such a bug up your ass about this? The most serious parody I have ever heard was this: In the beginning was nonsense, and the nonsense was with God, and the nonsense was God.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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someone just tell the story before someone gets hurt up in here....
:grin:
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Greg are you talking about the bug up someone's ass????? :rofl:
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The money was gone.It takes money to fight Lawsuits
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On 2005-06-22 07:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg are you talking about the bug up someone's ass????? :rofl: "
That would probably itch!.
Serious, lets try to get along here. There is no need for hostility because we disagree.
TRUCKER... Lawsuits?
Tell us my man!
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There were no lawsuits. Sorry Trucker has no idea
what hes saying. He's just throwing something out there. seriously.
Trucker, please don't get Greg or Antigen running off to some dead end.
Are you Seth? or one of the karate guys? Or Mike?
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On 2005-06-22 08:15:00, GregFL wrote:
Serious, lets try to get along here. There is no need for hostility because we disagree.
I second that :nworthy: It would be nice to be able to discuss pros AND cons and maybe gain some insight of EVERYONE's experiences - good and bad!
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Cleveland,
Ok, I'll use that term sparingly.
When I do use that term, I am referring strictly to the top creators and supporting staff members, not the rank and file. Generally, a programmer knows exactly what he or she is doing and intends the result - a controlled rank and file.
My observation that part of the result of programming was our own unknowing use of programming techniques on ourselves and each other is not meant to be critical or make any person feel bad about doing what we thought was the right thing. It just is what it is.
I see it more as clear evidence of the power that was weilded over us with abosolutely no regard for or understanding of the consequences. I have spent years feeling awfully guilty and remorseful about things I said and did back then.
Please accept my apologies if I offened you, or any other rank and file as it was not my intention to do that. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-22 10:14 ]
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I think, when it really comes down to it, it's just a matter of degrees anyway. Look at the inner circle here. Ok, so they got a bunch of money and they got a steady supply of forced adulation and servitude out of a revolving staff of Seed "kids".
But their lives are gone. There are no do overs. And, in the end, The Seed was just another failed Utopian scam.
Would you really want to trade places w/ these people? I wouldn't. A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James
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but still, someone should step up and tell the story...just to even the score for those that stuck around so many years just to have the rug pulled out from under them.
Someone please do the right thing.
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On 2005-06-22 09:56:00, Stripe wrote:
"Cleveland,
Ok, I'll use that term sparingly.
When I do use that term, I am referring strictly to the top creators and supporting staff members, not the rank and file. Generally, a programmer knows exactly what he or she is doing and intends the result - a controlled rank and file.
My observation that part of the result of programming was our own unknowing use of programming techniques on ourselves and each other is not meant to be critical or make any person feel bad about doing what we thought was the right thing. It just is what it is.
I see it more as clear evidence of the power that was weilded over us with abosolutely no regard for or understanding of the consequences. I have spent years feeling awfully guilty and remorseful about things I said and did back then.
Please accept my apologies if I offened you, or any other rank and file as it was not my intention to do that. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-06-22 10:14 ]"
Stripe, I think you miss one point here. Even the very top people...Libby..Suzie..these people were just kids themselves and duped into the scheme. They, at least early on, weren't sophisticated enough, smart enough, or even educated enough to understand the techniques they were using..they were only on the program themselves and then elevated to hero status by the group and by Art.
We were all victims...yes even Art himself...he was a victim of AA dogma and an ego that overshadowed reality and self perpeuated into god/hero worship. I believe he really thought that the "drugs" and druggie culture were going to destroy american society and he was waging a one man war against it, a war that spoke loudly to the fears of our parents. This mindset was shared by my father and we were basically casualties of this war, our youthfull innocence expendable in the greater more important drug war and "counter culture" issues of the day.
I am not excusing Art only trying to understand how we ALL approach this topic.
You and I for instance will come to different conclusions than someone who spent 20 years there, believing the seed was their actual family, only to be left alone by this family without explanation when the shit hit the fan.
Still others (Robin?) will think differently than us because she apparently didn't experience much trauma at the seed and spent the last 30 years believing it saved her life.
We all need to try to understand why the other guy has a certain mindset when we broach a topic in this forum. It is hard to do granted, but it imrpoves the dialogue tremendously.
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"We were all victims...yes even Art himself...he was a victim of AA dogma and an ego that overshadowed reality and self perpeuated into god/hero worship. I believe he really thought that the "drugs" and druggie culture were going to destroy american society and he was waging a one man war against it, a war that spoke loudly to the fears of our parents. This mindset was shared by my father and we were basically casualties of this war, our youthfull innocence expendable in the greater more important drug war and "counter culture" issues of the day."
You hit the nail right on the head here, Greg. I agree 100%. :nworthy:
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I would argue that this war is still on...
Those who believe that people are naturally bad and need to be controlled, that the world is made up of right vs. wrong, good vs. evil, and that sacrificing a few rights or people's feelings in order to 'fight' the bad guys or control the 'evil' in yourself is OK.
On the other hand are those who believe that people want to be good, that empathy and compassion, responsibility and honesty are more important than power and control. Today, the 'conserviative backlash' against 'us druggies' is in full swing, and it's considered unAmerican to question the 'powers that be,' that the poor are there because they are 'weak,' and that the state owes anything to the public.
Even in myself I struggle with these two competing versions of the world, and now, thanks to the hysterical right wing that seems to control everything while protesting it doesn't, it is even more clear to me how much my heart is in the right place.
Controlling people 'for their own good' never works out...helping myself and then others to find their own power and compassion is the way to go...
I think we Seedlings understand this mor than many people do.
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Rest assured that Anon & 80's guy are very familiar with the events of the final days. They do not need someone to tell them what happened they lived it.
What is at issue here were the actions taking by a few with no regards toward the consequences of their actions, actions that very much affected the lives of 80?s guy, anon and so many others in so many different areas. People that based their whole life on what the Seed had preached and supposedly lived.
I can only imagine how betrayed and confused so many must have felt who had based their lives around the Seed only to find their lives shattered by the action of a few who never even bothered to inform or get the opinion of all of the people who ultimately would be affected.
What Gaul for those involved to take such action without consulting the others involved, hiding behind the mask of ? Doing the right thing? When all that they really wanted to do is to gain their independence from the influence of Art Barker with no regards to all those involved. The only thing that mattered to them was their selfish motives with no regards to what their actions would bring to so many.
Most were caught between two warring factions with their lives and many of their relationships destroyed and shattered.
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On 2005-06-23 06:49:00, Anonymous
I can only imagine how betrayed and confused so many must have felt who had based their lives around the Seed only to find their lives shattered by the action of a few
See, this is the problem. What action? What Few? The people here are getting these coded explanations.
It isn't a secret anymore. Everyone knows that Libby and Art had a sho-down and Art got pissed and there was a split down Libby/Art lines. What is lacking is detail in the story. Not providing the detail only leads to inproper assumptions and incorrect conclusions by the vast majority of the people that are reading.
Please someone tell the story...tell it anonymously and no one will find out who spilled the beans.
Sometimes the right thing to do is find the integrity to right a wrong. A wrong has been committed here on the people that built their life around this disfunction, and the right thing to do is to explain in detail what went down.
Lets let the truth find its way here.
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The truth has found it way here.
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Greg,
I see your point there regarding the young tender age of the staff. I think in my memory, they were big scary people. I'm not sure though, that they did not know or understand what they were doing. For me, it still boils down to accountabiity.
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Stripe are you female? The mustache kind of threw me. Then again alot of us are in our late 40's and 50's. What are you accountable for? Did you take home newcomers? If you did were you accountable for them? :question:
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On 2005-06-23 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
What are you accountable for? Did you take home newcomers? If you did were you accountable for them? "
This gets real cloudy, especially for those committed real young.
I knew I was selling out, even tho I was 14, but I saw no other way out. I did some very shamefull things as a seedling. I threw a kid down hard on the concrete that was trying to run, I tortured my newcomer by keeping him up and generally being an asshole, I "motivated" my desire to Come down on other kids for little or no reason...among other things.
Whos fault is this? Certainly I was accountable but again I was a 14 year old kid. However, I could of resisted more, I know this for a fact.
So with forgiving others for the wrongs they did me there ( I forgive you all) I also forgive myself. This doesn't mean sugar coat or forget, it means I let go of the anger and hostility and understand that we all adopted mindsets of survival and immersion.
From this position of forgiveness I think it is easier to understand what really occured because the facts become clearer, at least for me.
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On 2005-06-23 12:28:00, Stripe wrote:
"Greg,
I see your point there regarding the young tender age of the staff. I think in my memory, they were big scary people. "
You know, that is so funny because I felt the same way. Not too long ago I ran across a current picture of Libby and she is about 4'11 and just a small woman of little physical stature.
We were all kids Stripe. I think if we could pick Libby's mind now she would be regretfull of much of what she did. I hope so anyway for her sake.
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What am I accountable for? Every thing I have ever done with respect to that program, and in my life gnerally. I hope that someday I do have the opportunity to personally apologize to the one and only one new comer who was under my charge. And no, I was not physically abusive or mean, but like all Seedlings, I followed the rules. And yes, if that person had bad expereinces in life because of things I said or did, even if I was just following the company line, she deserves to have her problems acknowledged - especially any problems she might have as a direct result of having been a person under my charge. Yes, I am accountable too, even if I DID NOT make a living off of that place. Afterall, it's a two way street.