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ELAN SCHOOL ARTICLES 1975
Lewiston Daily Sun, Saturday, August 2, 1975
Visit to Elan One Impresses Longley
By GEOFFREY GEVALT Sun Staff Writer

 :jamin:  :rocker:
POLAND SPRING - After an hour-long visit late Friday afternoon at Elan One, Gov. James B. Longley came away feeling "impressed," but he said that no formal statement will be made until next week, after he has had a chance to review the reports of the state's evaluation team.

Longley's visit to the rehabilitation center was prompted by allegations from Mary Lee Leahy, director of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services.

The director claimed that the emotionally disturbed youngsters were being mentally and physically abused, and after an evaluation team from her department viewed the center at Upper Range Pond, the 11 Illinois children in the program were ordered home. Three of the children have since returned voluntarily to Elan, and a fourth has began litigation to return.

Elan's founder, Joseph J. Ricci, characterized the allegations as slanderous and said he will be filing a $3 million suit against Leahy, the Illinois DCFS evaluation team and the state itself. During his visit, Longley talked with one of the Illinois children as well as 10 other youngsters.

"I was very impressed that the kids were saying that the program was helping them," Longley commented.

But Longley would go no further for the moment, saying that he first wanted to talk with Illinois Gov. Daniel Walker. He noted that he had tried to reach Walker Friday evening, but had not been able to. Longley hopes to reach him this weekend.

Longley said that he will meet with Maine Health and Welfare Commissioner David E. Smith and the evaluators from his department on Monday.

Smith said Friday night that he had not had any feedback from his seven staffers, but "the initial indication" is that the allegations from the people of Illinois have no foundation."

The commissioner explained that three evaluation teams from Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island have already given favorable reports on the center.

The evaluation by the Maine officials, including a psychologist and psychiatrist, was requested by Longley, who said that a formal statement from the study will be released "no later than Wednesday."

But as to Elan's activity in the next week, Ricci commented "we're going to try to get life back to normal. The victims in this whole thing have been the kids. I think we'll have a huge picnic…something to relieve the tensions."

Ricci said that Longley had a chance to talk with evaluators from both Maine and Connecticut during his visit.

The governor was appreciative that the Elan administration was open and cooperative.

Commenting on why he came back to Elan, one Illinois youth said "I came back because I wanted to get help, and I knew this was the only place I could get it."

The 18-year-old believes that his state's charges were trumped up.

"We tried to tell the investigators that they were crazy, but they weren't interested in what we felt about Elan. The just kept trying to convince us it was a bad place."

Ricci reportedly has stated that the Illinois investigators were rude and biased and were eventually asked to leave because of it.

The children at Elan's six centers, located in Poland Spring, Auburn, Parsonsfield and Waterford, are mostly from detention centers, state hospitals and foster homes. They have been in drugs, prostitution and larceny and have other emotional problems.

Elan administrators say that their program can work with these kids and object to the allegations and the way they were first reported in the news.

Ricci claims that the whole issue is a result of political haggling in the State of Illinois, concerning whether problem youths should be sent to out of state institutions.

Speculation is that Elan's fee, $1,200 a month, may also have been a reason for Illinois to take the kids out of the center.

Ricci has reportedly commented that Leahy was "acting outside the scope of her own authority" and the allegations made "are quite frankly a lie."

Ricci claims that the state's evaluation team came for an express purpose of finding fault to give the state an excuse to back out.

Elan is a controversial program, Smith noted at a recent news conference, and staffers from his agency have been working with the centers.

"You've got to remember these are some of the toughest children around," he said.


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Lewiston Evening Journal, Thursday, August 7, 1975
Investigation Shows No Evidence of Abuse at Elan One Center
By MAUREEN CONNOLLY Associated Press Writer

AUGUSTA, Maine (AP) - A preliminary investigation of the Elan One treatment center found no evidence of abuse and mistreatment of youngsters, state officials reported today.

The investigation into the Poland Spring center for troubled youngsters was launched last week after the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services withdrew 11 Illinois state wards from the facility, charging they had been mistreated.

State officials said the report was the unanimous opinion of the investigative team.

"The Maine investigation revealed no evidence of unjustifiable denials of civil liberties or of mistreatment, brutality or anything that could be considered abhorrent to all acceptable standards of child care," the Maine Department of Health and Welfare said in a statement.

"The investigation revealed that the Elan program was one of significant value that was achieving positive results in dealing with adolescents who had failed to respond to more traditional treatment or correctional methods," according to the statement.

Investigators said they felt "the staff appeared dedicated, competent, and caring and the residents of Elan appeared healthy, responsive, content and supportive of the program, staff and other residents of Elan."

The report continued "The residents interviewed usually expressed newly found feelings of dignity, self-assurance and mental well-being, and they attributed these feelings to the treatment they were receiving at Elan."

Gov. James B. Longley ordered Health and Welfare Commissioner David E. Smith to evaluate Elan after Mary Lee Leahy, head of the Illinois agency made the abuse charges.

She said the children were subjected to degrading treatment and violent punishment.

The staff of Elan, a privately owned facility, denied the abuse charges and said they were the result of political infighting among Illinois officials.

Several young people at Elan also told reporters in private that the charges were false.

The Department of Health and Welfare said it will send a final report to Illinois, incorporating the findings of other investigators from Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island. In addition, Smith said an Illinois evaluation team has been invited back to Maine to meet with other investigators.

The Maine investigation was conducted through Health and Welfare's Office of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Prevention. Team members included a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and attorneys.
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The Lewiston Daily Sun, Friday, August 8, 1975
State Probe Gives Elan a Clean Bill of Health

AUGUSTA, Maine (AP) - A preliminary report by state officials Thursday cleared the Elan One youth treatment center of charges of child abuse. The Department of Health and Welfare released the results of a week-long investigation into the Poland Spring center for troubled youngsters.

The state action was taken after the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services withdrew 11 Illinois state wards from the facility, charging they had been mistreated.

Maine officials said the report was the unanimous opinion of the investigative team.

"The Maine investigation revealed no evidence of unjustifiable denials of civil liberties or of mistreatment, brutality or anything that could be considered abhorrent to all acceptable standards of child care," the report said.

"The investigation revealed that the Elan program was one of significant value that was achieving positive results in dealing with adolescents who had failed to respond to more traditional treatment or correctional methods," according to the report.

Investigators said they felt "the staff appeared dedicated, competent, and caring, and the residents of Elan appeared healthy, responsive, content and supportive of the program and other residents of Elan."

Gov. James B. Longley ordered Health and Welfare Commissioner David E. Smith to evaluate Elan after Mary Lee Leahy, head of the Illinois agency made the abuse charges.

The director said the children were subjected to degrading treatment and violent punishment.

The staff of Elan, a privately owned facility, and its residents denied the abuse charges. Staff members said the allegations were the result of political infighting among Illinois officials.

The Department of Health and Welfare said it will send a final report to Illinois, incorporating the findings of other investigators from Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island. In addition, Smith said an Illinois evaluation team has been invited back to Maine to meet with other investigators.
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Portland Press Herald, Friday, August 8, 1975
Elan Center Cleared in Preliminary Report

AUGUSTA, Maine (AP) - A preliminary report by state officials Thursday cleared the Elan One youth treatment center of charges of child abuse.

The Department of Health and Welfare released the results of a week-long investigation into the Poland Spring center for troubled youngsters.

The state action was taken after the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services withdrew 11 Illinois state wards from the facility, charging they had been mistreated.

Maine officials said the report was the unanimous opinion of the investigative team.

"The Maine investigation revealed no evidence of unjustifiable denials of civil liberties or of mistreatment, brutality or anything that could be considered abhorrent to all acceptable standards of child care," the report said.

"The investigation revealed that the Elan program was one of significant value that was achieving positive results in dealing with adolescents who had failed to respond to more traditional treatment or correctional methods," according to the report.

Investigators said they felt "the staff appeared dedicated, competent, and caring, and the residents of Elan appeared healthy, responsive, content and supportive of the program and other residents of Elan."

The report continued "The residents interviewed usually expressed newly found feelings of dignity, self-assurance and mental well-being, and they attributed these feelings to the treatment they were receiving at Elan."

Gov. James B. Longley ordered Health and Welfare Commissioner David E. Smith to evaluate Elan after Mary Lee Leahy, head of the Illinois agency made the abuse charges.

She said the children were subjected to degrading treatment and violent punishment.

The staff of Elan, a privately owned facility, and its residents denied the abuse charges. Staff members said the allegations were the result of political infighting among Illinois officials.

The Department of Health and Welfare said it will send a final report to Illinois, incorporating the findings of other investigators from Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island. In addition, Smith said an Illinois evaluation team has been invited back to Maine to meet with other investigators.
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Portland Press Herald, Monday, August 11, 1975
Elan is Cleared

The Department of Health and Welfare, in a preliminary report, has cleared Elan One of charge of child abuse.

We're delighted at that finding and are confident if a more detailed report follows it will be in the same vein. From the information that had been made public, it would have been difficult to understand any other conclusion. But it is good to have a clean bill of health made official.

The investigation came after the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services withdrew 11 of its wards from the Poland Spring facility charging mistreatment. But officials of two other states immediately conducted their own investigations and found no reason to withdraw any of their wards, nothing that they could classify as mistreatment.

It was significant, too, that two of the young people returned to Illinois promptly ran away and came back to Elan One at Poland Spring. No one runs away to get back to people who abuse them. They obviously wanted what Elan One was offering.

What seems to be in much greater need of thorough investigation than Elan One is the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services. If the Illinois governor and other appropriate officials are as diligent in probing their own department as Maine officials have been in checking the Illinois complaint against Elan One, they might find something truly scandalous.

The real tragedy here is those nine young Illinois people who are being denied the help that their troubled contemporaries at Elan One are receiving - and that other Illinois young people might receive in the future.
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Portland Press Herald, Wednesday, October 22, 1975
Connecticut Investigators Okay Elan

POLAND SPRING, Maine (AP) - Connecticut investigators say they will continue sending youths with severe problems to a controversial care facility where therapy includes having the kids scream at each other.

"The kids we send to Elan are those we would have had to send to an adult correctional facility or a maximum security mental hospital," says Anthony Lovallo, director of treatment for the Connecticut Department of Children and Youth Services.

His boss, Commissioner Francis Maloney, says the program has helped most of the Connecticut youths sent there but adds there has not been a complete follow-up study.

The program is conducted by the Elan Corp., which runs five therapeutic communities in the Lewiston area. Connecticut has put troubled youths in Elan's care since 1973.

"We don't screen any of these kids before they come here. We don't care what their problems are or what crimes they have committed. After all, there has to be some place to treat kids like this," says Joseph Ricci, a former drug addict and Elan's therapeutic director.

To those unaccustomed to the program, screams coming from Elan's converted farm house often are terrifying. The visitor soon discovers it's part of the program.

"Primal scream is simply a way to give these kids an exit for their pain," Ricci says. "You can't hold anything back while screaming. The mind can't do two things at once."

The therapy also involves intense encounter group sessions and peer group pressures.

About 30 Connecticut youths, most of them with lengthy juvenile court records and most between 13 and 16 years old, are in Elan programs. Connecticut pays between $670 and $800 monthly per youth, which officials say is cheaper than at other private facilities. Regardless of cost, says Lovallo, Elan takes children unacceptable to other private facilities.

The Elan program recently gained attention when Illinois withdrew its children. State investigators said children were forced into boxing rings to settle disputes and some were handcuffed and placed in straitjackets.
 ::OMG::

To  The Élan Group:                                 My name is Mark, I was resident at the House in the early 70s and when I was there I saw things and heard  things I  really  should have paid more attention to. Now  I write 30 years later in anger and disappointment with the things that have and might still go on there. I was raised to believe that  loyalty everything I am full of  disappointment when I read that guys like Wiggins pulled a move like that or  Collman my he rest in Hell  If he thought Elan was hard well he in for one real good time now.I pray that  God was good enough to let Big Joe go to Hell and give him a old  style tune up.                                          I believe Mike was the guy who went home with me one time to Chicago,I think that was his last name Jeff G would know he was around   then with his little I think Gold MG convertible and Eddy had a  Buick Electra Black,and Big Joe had his Jag 4 door and his black hat and long coat. I spent many years  in the automobile dismantling trades   I am glad Mike never got too close. I could still be in prison. Any  group you join in life loyalty is most important, not just to the  group but to you. It might sound crazy I missed the house when I left and really felt misplaced .Most of you there right now don’t even deserve to hear or read this letter. Because your probably not  true to yourself or anyone yet in life because you have not hit that wall . I wish Big Joe was around to tell all of you about the wall and what it really means.You guys probably think its just for Gms and to vent boy are you wrong. And for ones that had  the honor  to talk to Joe that was probably  one of the best questions to ask him.                                                                  I was never afraid of Big Joe or his past he did not scare me or intimidate me,He helped  me save my own life.We maybe got a little closer than most due to some back and Fourths with the state I was from. But he saw I had loyalty,and drive.Was I a fucked up kid.know one will ever know how bad I was. The statues of limitations don’t run that far.  My state had me on  diesel  therapy  for many years before Elan. So by the time I got there it was a vacation in the north woods. Yes  there was its share of bullshit and people running around like someone stuck a happy rod up their ass. Screaming and yelling and acting like  they lost their minds,  and  yes some of them would have beaten to death anywhere else, But I was smart enough to relies that I put myself her no one else, and compare to some of the things the state tried,this wasn’t so bad. Just stay out of the way and listen.                                             Maybe  Elan should adopt a policy of no weak people. Yes give a test to get in, it’s a school right??? Because change takes strong people not weak .You put the weak in hospital and on drugs.not off of drugs . They need that kind of help because they  are not and  “don’t want be” strong. They need their hands held. Why take up space for the strong that can be helped.And maybe not admit it but want help.I got a hold of Big Joe back in the mid 80s he was running for or getting ready to run for Gov of the state..I thanked him for his kindness and concern when I was a kid and that he was 100% right about the wall. And how sorry I was for being such an  asshole kid.                                          Big Joe and me had many good talks I  always asked him to keep our  calls and conversation just between us and he did I know he did. Joe knew loyalty and trust.I would not be free if he didnt’t. I confided  in him with things that  would make  Skakel look like a church boy, I was a collector for a family business. And if it wasnt’t for people like Joe that had  grew up a hard life I really in  my position at the time would have had no one to talk to and man I needed some one  just to know I was not going crazy.                                                                     You folks that think Elan and I don’t know why they call it school.it’s a house with people who are all in bad spots in life and hopefully become a family to solve them, that think its hard just wait to  really be on your    own   life comes at you 500 miles an hour.Its like a dance sometimes you lead sometimes you follow I wanted to write a letter  asking how everyone is doing and  see who might  still be around.Like Jeff, Marty,Eddy. But as  I looked  I found all of this bullshit about the House and quite honestly I am shocked. I was  there around the  beginning  of Elan and I pride myself on always being very smart and on top of things all my life,good or bad I  knew what I was getting into, But to save my life I don’t remember any abuse or bad things going on. Was it paradise no,but then I wasnt’t on my own yet as an  adult. And looking back it was paradise.                                                   Maybe like Joe told me one night on the way back from Portland at about 2 or was it 3 in the morning Jeff G. that I was too much like him and that I will hit that wall one day and then the things he said will come back and make some sense.  Well he was right, And when that federal judge and state courts together gave 110 years. Guess who's words him my head. And I  know that the  some of the things I learned at Elan pulled me threw it. Most of all never give up and always try and make it. I went back on appeal and lost 100 years of my sentence and spent 5 on 10 years bit.I asked some of the lifers why they never killed themselves  and they said as long as your alive your life can change. And that nothing is forever good or bad. Those words have carried me threw life, And when times are hard I remember those things.I own a handyman  service  and some rental properties in Chicago and  NJ. So hard times  isnt’t just money its just life.                                                         The night Joe picked up in Portland I still to this day feel bad for him,He should have  put a bullet in my head on the way back to the house Lord knows I deserved it, and the roads were very dark in Maine in the 70s and all woods. I jerked him around so much,and he always gave me a break. Oh I got Gms and shot down and went to Parsons Field. I was also an expeditor and some good things too. Most of all I was young and just did not get it yet. I wasn’t  a drug addict like Big Joe, I was a risk addict, and that’s worse. I had no regard for my  life or anyone else's, When it came time for crime I was there, I thought I could live high forever  I tied coke and smoked some pot but that was not my thrill, Action was anything involving some kind of chance. I never liked gambling but I did think how great it would be to rob a  gambling house.                                                            My life is good and I am as happy as I will admit hah hah. But I do miss the house,    maybe not the one that’s  there now, I miss the house I was in I miss Jeff  I miss Marty and Eddy  M. and some others and  most of all I miss Big Joe. I plan to be out east maybe  late this year or next year to check on some property I have in NJ, I would like to see the house again. And not just from the driveway hah  hah. And hook up with you Marty &Jeff and maybe just talk, and scream into the mountains and maybe cry for a while with some old friends that do understand and don’t see weakness they see  a strong person just having  time out from life. Some just reaching for a hand not a bottle of something to make things go away..  Talk and understanding are  permanent things. Everything else is just a  bandage. And why would you put a bandage on a gunshot would when you can permanently fix things??                                                                        I hope in  these totally  misspelled words you see the wall now if not reread the letter. Everyone goes  threw life different and I have seen more than I ever  wanted to but everything I have seen has taught me something. I would prefer that the reason for my letter is my own business, Sharon knows why the letter came, And I am glad I wrote it, and thank you for asking me too. I loved that place, and I am far from crazy I think. It just when I was there everyone seemed to be going in the same direction. And the ones that weren’t well they needed help along and I am glad I got that help because the people I met on my vacation in the north woods helped forever in my life and still do.                                                                                        Thank You  Brothers & Sister                                  Take care of our house in the woods                                                                                                                                         P.S.                                       I f my letter sounds more like a primal group or a General Meeting via  mail, then it is.         I just cant describe how I screwed up by ever leaving. The House. I can blame it on the state or  my confusion  , but  I know it was my own eagerness  to become an adult and be on my own that screwed me. I never gave myself a chance to grow up and be a kid .I came from money and some power, but at an early age I screwed that up. I was told I was adopted when I was real young and instead of embracing it as a gift, I took it as an insult from my real parents and so my life went on always  feeling  kind of kicked to the curb so to speak .                        Its  taken me most of my life to shake that feeling, and I don’t know that I ever have, but I did learn to manage it in a way were it is not my constant problem or reason for things not going right all the time.  And guess what happened, I grew up. I took my life  and it failures and successes and made them work for me. I remember nothing is forever good or bad, Thank you to the Lifers in prison and that  you must be positive in life even when negativity is chasing you like a rabbit. Thank you Elan. That there are walls out there that you will hit threw life, how hard is up to you as well as avoiding them is too .Thank  you Big Joe. And that   life  has to be what you make it .I was in prison like I said before, and turned out in the end spending 4 years there . I was in States ville in Illinois and then  1 year  Marion fed in Illinois. Some how I made it threw, and why because it is what you make it, I had some things going for me inside. But in thinking all those connections are the reason I am here and yes they did help a lot .in my appeal I gave back 100 years of time to the Feds and had great connections in prison. I never had a fight or argument with anyone, except some hacks, but everyone had trouble with the rules. that’s kind of what brought us  all together there. But we were in a correctional center. I guess to be corrected ,ha ha .                     But the gift in that is that I was able to see how it would be without the friends I  had  in there to make it,  and some of the people had it tuff. But half of them made it that way by not doing their own time and still fucking around and getting into things they had no business  .Prison was and is just a small microcosm of our world. So is Elan and both have a great gift to give, and that is common sense,  That in life we relies is not so common and must be gained and saved. .In  Elan they yell and scream, and a lot of times it from people that  need to be yelled at themselves. I never liked yelling and screaming. And how did I avoid that? I stayed away from the things that triggered those kind of responses. I took responsibility for my life and actions, I have always had a bad temper I mean bad, and it got me into a lot of trouble over the years. And sometimes still does I have temper tantrums so fast people don’t even know I had it. I am the guy that will go in the opposite  direction right now, and walk away. Leaving whatever was there, there and not looking back. Almost a  Stallone  attitude. But it works. People that really know me see what happens but I avoid the confrontation in front of me.                                    Every challenge in life is not yours to take on and knowing your limitations in life is key, never fear anything but God himself,  everything else is just temporary. And Elan is going to tell you that and try and show you that and for some it works others in one ear and out the other, and I understand that totally  Because  no one ever told me anything , but I was shown some things I wish I would have been told.  When my state sent me there in 1974 early 1975 they sent 11 of us, It was like Castro when he sent the refugees and dumped the prison and crazy houses and sent them. to the U.S. in boats. We  were like a test project for Mary Lee Leahy and she sent the best from the state she could find. Big Joe and Doc had an uphill battle from the start. A few of us me included were just out of hand all the time, always trying the easy way out of anything and just up to no good, and the rest needed lots of drugs  and quiet time by themselves.                     In the end when Ms . Leahy pulled her whole card 3 of us non crazy went into our survival mode and  escaped, It was a chapter in life I will never forget. We got that Bitch at her own game {con troll} she at the helm was as crazy as some of the doctors, and counselors . Elan was a vacation in the north woods. Yes there were rules but there was love and caring and compassion when you needed  it, someone to talk to about anything. And I did not pour my life secrets to everyone ,but  I had some people I could .And I will tell you it is hard to find that in life and not be judged for what you say or looked at differently. Take advantage of those ears, and be most of all  be careful of whose ears .Because only someone who thinks like you will truly understand you, and that means you need to see just who you are ,and  what you are by watching others around you. Your twins are in the room, and they probably are  there for completely  different reasons that you are. And that is what makes the chase in life so interesting. Because that is life we will  always be looking for people like ourselves . And I believe Elan does that. And gives that chance,  take advantage of that, no amount of anything can buy that gift.
 :rocker:  :rocker:  ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::

::OMG::  ::OMG:: I find it hard to understand why you would split a thread and move some of us to our own area and now we still get the rush of Dany Bennison and someone new probable Felice as a troll. They think to know what they are talking about ,writing styles of people. Come on they aren't focused enough to make a observation like that . Because some of us speak harshly about Elan and fight back when people speak out of turn.That's not a writing style, it anger and thats a universal language. And if it was true who cares??. Its should put a smart person on guard ,that the people talking do know the workings of a computer and how to stay covert.That's being said, why do they follow then complain ?? It was apparent when you made your decision that you were trying to gain focus on the topics we were accused of distorting. But then they go seek the fight.Its all on the site and I know you can read threw it. I am not writing to complain or ask for your help. I just ask that next time they complain tell them too shut up and mind themselves. They are the pursuers and you set them up to show it. You will not find myself or any of the accused attack on other pages nor seek out targets. I personal have asked and warned them to back off but they dont seem to get it. Now maybe you will.They say the post are similar, well if they knew anything about researching Elan ,there is not allot of published info to provide. But non of them ever got the far into investigating Elan. to know that.I dont know if you were there, I was from 74-75 until the State of ill pulled us out due to abuse allegations etc, so I do have experience and times to talk about and insight to speack about Elan and places like it.I am not Complaining just wondering why these people find the need to instigate and not just move on?? . I thank you for your time and consideration, Have a great day Mark Babitz.  :jawdrop:  :beat:  P.S. Please dont take them out of the group just understand about being in the group :beat: .As I have shown you PSY I can drum up hits on a site look at the hits and post when I jumped in and Gary. It went from 50 views to 1400 or better post went from 12 or so to over 100 I believe, :cheers:  :rocker:  :rasta:  :jamin: I put dynamite :flame:  on paper, and people unarguably like it :rocker:  :rocker:  :rasta:  :rasta:  ::OMG::  :notworthy: . But notice how many post, apposed to views, it shows more read then talk, and thats why God gave us two ears and one mouth.I appreciate you letting us on the site, you have a very large audience and allot of different groups from different places that mix is great.In between the nuts we will get the post up and run a clean operation,that means legal not nice.Someone made a ridiculous comment that fornits was visited by parents etc and things need to be nice and friendly, I wont say who ,you will see it if you have time.How about the Penis thread or the pot thread etc, there are a few questionable pages here. But who cares everyone is getting what they need and thats a great thing.  Elan Discussion 48 post-291 views. starting from 0 a couple of days ago :rocker:  :rocker:

:feedtrolls:

:rocker: No I dont ,I am going by what he has said and posted , I dont even know if he is being honest. He claimed Joe Ricci was his guardian and he got shanghaied into it. Claims to being apart or watching some kid get dragged from a car by staff or something to that effect. I think he is full of shit and I have always said that. All the deep dark stuff about Elan he should be able share and he doesn't, boast to have med records etc.I take him with a grain of salt he goes from site to site with his companion starting fights.

Thank you for doing that,Some are more aggressive than others and some need the primal scream once and a while but atleast you know what your walking into. Serious Elan info only and the good nasty stuff like Straights does, Not allot of hand holding reminiscing about the good old days just straight business and thats getting Elan nothing but bad reviews and publicity on Elan and thats not a pretty job done by pretty people. Thank You again. Mark Babitz :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker: