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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: John Underwood on September 21, 2005, 11:45:00 AM

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 21, 2005, 11:45:00 AM

First of all, I do apologize for my (degrading to you and me) rant following the responses to my post regarding my old druggies friends, that was uncalled for, base - a more civilized response from me would have been appropriate.
Regarding the oft requested apologies for my part in The Seed, that would be the equivalent (to me) of supporting a lie, feeding a delusion. I further believe that if you don?t understand this, it?s simply because you don?t want to. This is what I believe, ...me! Some of the posts reflect a belief that I have an expectation that you need to believe, I don?t, not the tiniest. I do not begrudge anyone whose opinion is vastly different from mine, nor do I begrudge them the right to shout it from the mountaintop(s) if they so desire.
You invited me to post at this site to answer questions that would clear up certain ambiguities. I have. And yes, in my doing more than that, (expressing personal opinions, feelings), the attention has become focused on me, not the answers you sought. If I continue to post at this site I have no intention of not expressing my thoughts and opinions, but I will try to minimize so as to not misdirect from what you specifically ask.
Let?s begin with my answering one I already answered. NO, I never struck fuelaw (whoever that is) or anyone else at The Seed, never happened, an absolutely bold face lie! Now let me ask you a question. No one here, not even the most adamant Seed haters, remembers the staff actually hitting anyone, yet fuelaw claims he was ?beat-up? by staff,...and more than once, both in Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Does this not give you cause to think about, question the validity of his claims? If not, sobeit, no more on comments from me on this subject.
Yes, I did, (as did other staff), turn down parents who attempted to place their kids in The Seed if I thought they, (and this is the term I used to parents), were not candidates for the program. The contagion that effected many parents during those years resulted in many kids showing up that did not need the program. In fact, the most prominent, outspoken member of this web site was one of those turned down, her parents being told she did not need the program.
If there was any doubt about an intake, even if substantial drug use was admitted, they were required to first see a psychiatrist for evaluation. In Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Ft. Pierce it was Dr. Lester Keiser. In Cleveland it was Dr. David Logan. I do not remember the name of the doctor in St. Pete, though I?m sure if you want it, his name could be easily obtained. This was done strictly to determine if there was reason to suspect there may be other problems, not drug related.
There was one other post I read that I would like to respond to since I do have first hand knowledge regarding the validity of the accusation. Neither Judge Al Sepe or Judge Ellen Morphonios, (both sent many to The Seed), ever placed anyone in The Seed at the bequest of parents. Never. These are both people I knew well, considered friends, and neither took their judicial responsibility that lightly. Parents were never involved until after the fact and in many cases there was no parental involvement before or after. This was adult felony court at, (what was then called), The Criminal Court of Record at the Dade County Justice Building. These persons were all charged with felonies, - certain ones, at arraignment were interviewed, and if deemed candidates for rehabilitation, were give the choice of entering The Seed or continuing their entitled due process, not going to jail. I know, I was the one that sat in the court at the public defender?s table (in Sepe?s court) as they went through the court docket every morning. (A little side note here: Roy Black was one of the two public defenders permanently assigned to Sepe?s court during this period, I still get a kick out of how famous he has become).
Any other questions you have, ask, if I know, I?ll answer, but probably not in a timely manner.
Any other ill-founded, debasing, slanderous, profane, dishonest remarks, ...well, as you have so accurately and consistently pointed out, ... I have no control...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: cleveland on September 21, 2005, 12:49:00 PM

John, I appreciate your posting here. Please know in advance that I will not necessarily agree with you, but I have no reason to doubt your sincerity. If others have a different response, so be it.

No one ever struck me at the Seed, but I was 'shoved' from behind in the group. I was rarely yelled at, and it was usually indirectly during a Rap. Someone always had their arm around me when I was a newcomer, I was never alone, and had to leave the bathroom door open a crack when I used it. I was strip searched, including full body cavity search, which was humiliating. So that was the extent of actual 'physical' intrusions.

When I was admitted in Cleveland I met with Dr. Logan, who I believe was affiliated with Case. This meant a lot to me as I had experienced some anxietyh and depression and was afraid that I was 'mentally ill.' I later wrote Dr. Logan a letter, with very personal items that I was unwilling to share with him face to face (nothing terrible, just things that I found embarrasing and hard to understand). In the letter, which I copied to the Seed, I requested that he review whether I would be better served by therapy or the Seed. He didn't reply, and when I entered the Seed (post intake) I asked staff about the letter and they said they had 'no idea' what I was talking about. I was sort of shocked; but that was after the strip search and being told I was completely 'full of shit'. I had come in voluntarily because I thought this was some type of group therapy. I wanted to leave immediately but was told I had signed myself in for three irrevocable days. So I sat tight and after three days on the front row, I determined that although I was very uncomfortable with the 'program' that I had to admit I was unhappy and that I should 'give their way a try.' I now see this as manipulation (sorry John) and completely in keeping with step-type thinking.

There you go...my take on this time in my life.

Walter

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 21, 2005, 01:33:00 PM

Thank you john for so directly responding and for the apology. I sincerely appreciate it.

As for my suggestion you apologize for those you may have harmed during your tenure at the seed, that was merely a suggestion on my part and I have no direct need for it personally..

Ahh, violence at the seed.  I will tell you now why I believe Fuelaw was roughed up,and I will also be the first to throw it down that I have no first hand knowledge of it nor do I know the extent, if any, of your participation.


But violence at the seed. The topic first... I don't like it. In my opinion it negates the real problems with the treatment model. You can do away with all the violence, the temper tantrums, the threats and so forth and the basic treatment model is still wrong and harmfull.


But violence at the seed, whether overt or suggested, was a daily threat to us youngsters. Let me pontificate a little here.

First, the threat at intake was of a violent nature. If you do not sign yourself in, you are going to be declared incorrigible and go to JDC, and do you know what happens to kids at JDC?  This was the threat I received, an overt threat that I either sign myself in or face possible anal rape.  I was to weak and scared at 14 to even face the possibility of that, even tho I did put up a couragious fight and call the staff member who strip searched me a faggot while looking him in the eye and after exposing my organ I asked him "are you happy now". A juvenile statement and insensitive to homosexuals but one born of defiance.

Second, the threat once place on the first row. If you don't comply, we will have you court ordered and you will stay in captivity for longer, and if you still don't comply you will be placed in Jail/juvy.  Again, the overt sexual connotation/threat.  

Next, the Guards at the door, and the propensity for these guards to throw people to the concrete in an extremely one sided free for all action.  Just witnessing this once in my first three days was enough for me, I wasn't going to physically challenge those older kids with testosterone in their muscles, something my strong but pre-pubscent body was lacking.  The threat of physicall violence was always there.

Next, The constant MEAN spirited poking and prodding from behind for soley letting your back touch the chair or from nodding off from lack of sleep, exercise and from emotional duress. This was orwellian and cruel in the extreme, more on the line of torture than actual violence, but it was a constant reminder of what could and would happen if you didn't comply.

still again, the come down on you raps often reached threatening and frightening proportions, bordering on direct physical threats. I specifically remember people screaming things like "on the streets I would have raped you" to girls and " in prison you would be someone's girlfriend". With the threat of prison held over all our heads, the implied violence was constant.

Going further, the infamous parental beatings at the St Pete Seed. Not only did they occur, and people have repeatedly logged on this site with independent memories of it along with accounts in the press and testimony from parents, But even worse, after they occured they were used as THREATS against the rest of us. "don't think we can't get your parents in here" type of stuff.

Going further John, You struck a rather imposing physical presence to us youngsters, and you often became a frothing maniac, bordering on very scary, when screaming and belittling us in front of other people. Think back John. I have and I can see your face and demeaner as I type this.

Still again people would break pieces of the chair off and cut themselves with it and while bleeding get stood up and yelled at. This is extremely violent imagery to a captive person, especially a young one.

Lastly, I participated in violent actions against other seedlings IN FRONT OF SENIOR STAFF. Its true, and not only did I do it, so did another senior staff member. We took a 14 year old kid who broke free and ran for it in the parking lot, and tackled him ONTO THE PAVEMENT, held him down and threatened him physically into submission. He came up bloody, he was violently grabbed by the senior staff member, dragged in front of I believe Suzy  who seethed.."get him back in group" or something to that effect.

lastly, "boys" rap to me felt like violence. Here I was, devoid of any sexual experience, being shoved into a group of boys and asked to "relate" my sexual experiences or lack therof. It was a frightening experience that had me physically trembling before every "boys" rap.

Other people have other stories, but that is violence at the seed from GregFl's perspective. It not only existed in actuality, but the constant threat of being hurt during an escape, being locked up and raped, having your self beat up by a proxy of staff (being your own parent) being stuck in the back, or worse, if non-compliant being denied the basic right to take a piss or go number 2 until it appeared you were going to go in your pants. BTW, was there specific junior staff instruction on this bit of behavior modification? Because many many people have this as one of their number one complaints. Being reduced to such a helpless captive that even urinating or moving your bowels was a privelige withheld to those not in compliance and then to have these actions watched and logged into a book? Care to clear up the reasoning for that? I think I know John that it was really just a terror technique. we are being honest here, right?  I even remember the term, "you can just sit in your shit". this is violent, degrading, humiliating, and orwelian treatment of youngsters.

Now, back to Fuelaw. When this occured he was 13. He was defiant, he was small, and what may have seemed like a small jerking of the arm or slam against a wall could have seemed like a giant ass beating to him. I am just speculating. I really don't know the story in detail and maybe he would like to post it in totality for rebuttal. I cannot honestly comment on what occured but I will honestly say it does not surprise me.  I was there in 1973 and felt the violence charged atmosphere.


Bringing us full circle to 2005.  I am very sincere when I tell you I forgive you and all involved. You may not feel like you need or want my forgiveness, but I give it to you unconditionally. You may feel the end justified the means and that "saving lives" was more important than the other result, the result you see here on this forum where many many people have logged on and shared the torment of their involvement with The Seed.  It is real John,it is not sour grapes or a bunch of failures trying to justify their failure. Most of us are well adjusted adults that frankly don't need to keep bringing this stuff up everyday. I do this for a different reason. I don't need the therapy..I don't need the constant reminder, and I don't get angry, upset, emotional or otherwise stuck back there when I discuss it. Others need to go thru this and come out the otherside. This forum is in honor of those people and in honor of our shared experiences.

But again, back to full circle..here we are 30 years later. By any standard of objectivity, the Seed was a dismall failure, the legacy programs continue to harm people, and  the utopian dream of a seed "army" failed miserably just like all cults eventually do, and the end, as usual, did not justify the means.

It rarely does.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 21, 2005, 01:38:00 PM

BTW, I cannot speak for those Judges, but I have specific knowledge of a judge that lied for the seed. He was a judge in pinellas county.

His kid was in the program and he was an adamant seed supporter, providing fresh meat regularly to the seed. He overturned a Broward court order releasing a kid from the seed, claiming the kid admitted in open court to needing the seed and being a drug addict.

The problem? The kid was never in the judges court. The entire thing was fabricated.

What level of commitment to the cause does it take a judge to violate his oath of office? To get judges to commit kids for shoplifting to a lock down drug rehab? To sentence kids for "attitude" to the seed?

BTW, I know about the above case intimately. It was my mother that obtained the release order, and my father  and a local attorney, who also happened to have his kid in the seed,  whom finagled the Seed affiliated Judge to lie under oath.

Is any of this normal?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: rjfro22 on September 21, 2005, 02:41:00 PM

John U.,
            I am grateful for this forum, For years I would think about the seed and wonderd how people were doing.  It is so great to have my memories refreshed by so many people.  The Seed  was not  an easy place but it helped wake me up, there was plenty of tough love, sometimes it could have been a little more gentle,
but the Seed help me pull my life together, and I remember you as being a really great person and I want to thank you and most of the staff that worked so hard to help many of us that really needed it.  I hope things are going well for you in life.  Thanks again for
being a person that helped make a difference in this world, you helped save lives.
Highest Regard,
Richard F.[ This Message was edited by: rjfro22 on 2005-09-21 11:42 ]

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: JaLong on September 21, 2005, 10:47:00 PM

John,
You already know how I feel about the seed. Yes, it was very hard for the 10 months I was in there, yet "I" feel it saved my life. I too have lost 18 old friends to overdoses, murder, suicides, and AIDS, but I am still living my life, and it is great. Yes, I had to go to therapy afterwards to deal with my anxiety and PTSD which I had before I went in, just amplified more. Fear triggered my PTSD. I was in fear the whole ten months. One thing I must disagree with is the court orders. My dad pulled one out of his pocket on the way to the seed, and yes John it was from Pinellas Circut Court. I had never been arrested, nor ever saw a judge. Mrs Peterman though knew all about me during intake. She went through my litany of a lot of what I had done, and threatend to call the police if I didn't sign the form. After tearing up two, and then chewing one up she picked up the phone and said she was calling St Pete police right then. I freaked and signed the paper. I know she knew things about me because my best friend and her brother(who raped me at 14yrs old) were staff there. Imagine being 17 and seeing the "boy" who raped me. The strip search made me feel I was being raped all over again. Total fear. He did apologize when I was in the clinic with Arthur, yet that made it worse for me. This was my experience. I don't know who the judge was, and my parents only remember going to the court house to pick it up. They do remember telling the judge, along with another adult what I was into. I also can tell you my old boyfriend came in to get me "out". During exercise we would be looking at each other, and were told to stop it. Most of my friends were across the street yelling my name and I was made to go inside and stay there for 2 wks. He ended up throwing a chair across the room, bolted for the door, and was tackled to the ground by 3 guards. Then it was "comedown time". Can't remember the male staff, but he asked if anyone knew him. All the girls around me started pointing their fingers at my head and I was told to come up to the front and "tell him where he was at". Oh yeah I yelled at him, yet at the same time I whispered I don't mean anything I am saying. Then he split that night.  I know I don't need to tell you how I feel about you. You already now that. :smile: Thank you for writing again. I appreciate your input. Take care,
Julie

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: JaLong on September 21, 2005, 10:53:00 PM

I was just thinking, and I don't ever remember seeing or talking to a doctor at the St Pete seed in 1973. I remember quite a lot about those times.
C-Ya

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: FueLaw on September 22, 2005, 12:07:00 AM

Underwood, you will be glad to know that your friend Judge Sepe was indicted in the operation "court broom" scandal in Miami-Dade county. He played sick for about a decade but a federal judge finally sent him away for a while. His federal prison number was 37427-004.

Your other friend Judge Marphonios was also caught up in the same scandal and was forced off the bench. I guess birds of a feather do flock together. Very coincidental that you mention crooked disgraced judges as your friends.

Yes you did strike me and physically abuse me. What about the event at the open meeting prior to X-mass , do you remember it? What the hell was that all about? Having said that I dont really care about it. It wasn't the first time I got the shit knocked out of me. I care about the mental abuse and torture of thousands of kids. How do answer for that?

How about the other lies? What about the 90% crap? How many staffers failed or got booted? How come the seed did not rise up and save the world? What happend Johnnyboy? Why did you quit? Why did you kiss Barkers ass for 6 years? How come nothing that guys like you & Barker predicted would happend ever came to pass?

The answer is because you were full of shit then and your still full of shit 30 years later. How pathetic can you be?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2005, 01:40:00 AM

Jalong, you mean to say one of the St Pete staffers had raped you prior to coming into the seed?

If I interpreted that correctly, that must have been terrifying to sit there under the captivity of one of your rapists.

Please tell me I have read that wrong...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2005, 01:45:00 AM

Quote

Neither Judge Al Sepe or Judge Ellen Morphonios, (both sent many to The Seed), ever placed anyone in The Seed at the bequest of parents. Never. These are both people I knew well, considered friends, and neither took their judicial responsibility that lightly.

No, they didn't. They were very serious about their, ahem...judicial responsiblitites.


http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/o ... t%20broom' (http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/19944341.OP.pdf#search='Judge%20Sepe%20%20court%20broom')

But hey, they were devoted the the Seed "cause" right? What difference does it make if we have corrupt judges or rapist staff members as long as they "get it", eh?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2005, 02:03:00 AM

St Pete had a doctor, but not coincidentially he had a kid in the program, he was one of the rabid parents and he rubber stamped every questionable case. My father asked me to go see him after the seed and my dad and I had a major falling out over it. He set the appointment and I didn't go.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: OverLordd on September 22, 2005, 09:49:00 AM

Its very intresting to look at this and see what is being said. This John Underwood character defends the program, yet each person keeps coming up with experiance after experiance, and he cannot defend against it. Flordia during the 70's must of been a place full of coruption and fear. this is what I am lead to believe by what is being said. Even the posts by Underwood makes me beieve this.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: JaLong on September 22, 2005, 10:06:00 AM

Hey Greg, No you read that correctly. I was 14 yrs old and my best friend Linda who was staff in July of 73 has a brother Bruce who was also staff. He and 4 other guys gang raped me at their house. They were not staff there for long- too long for me. We did get together about 4 yrs ago, and I told him he F'd up my life. He started crying, as I was, and apologized. Then I could forgive him and put it away. It was a very healing experience for the both of us. But in the seed, having to see him every day was horrible. Especially when he came up to the clinic door and said,"I'm sorry". Not heartfelt at that. Thanks for asking. Ya know how they say "what goes around, comes around"? Bruce is the only one alive out of the five. I didn't wish them death. It was their choices to continue to do some pretty hard dope. God bless them.
Julie

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2005, 10:09:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-22 07:06:00, JaLong wrote:

"Hey Greg, No you read that correctly. I was 14 yrs old and my best friend Linda who was staff in July of 73 has a brother Bruce who was also staff. He and 4 other guys gang raped me at their house. They were not staff there for long- too long for me. We did get together about 4 yrs ago, and I told him he F'd up my life. He started crying, as I was, and apologized. Then I could forgive him and put it away. It was a very healing experience for the both of us. But in the seed, having to see him every day was horrible. Especially when he came up to the clinic door and said,"I'm sorry". Not heartfelt at that. Thanks for asking. Ya know how they say "what goes around, comes around"? Bruce is the only one alive out of the five. I didn't wish them death. It was their choices to continue to do some pretty hard dope. God bless them.

Julie"

Bruce!  This is the guy that did my intake strip search, and your right, he just disapeared one day.  About 17...skinny, preppy looking.

Yes Jalong I remember him. That name kept coming in my brain but no one else remembered him.

I am so sorry you went thru that on all levels and were continually abused by having to face down this guy while under restraint and captivity.

If this doesn't shine a spotlight on a very big flaw in the "kids helping kids" treatment model, I doubt anything will get thru.

Here we have criminals , rapists and drug addicts, several months later, in charge of the captivity of young children.  Also, these same children  were sent home to disfunctinal families where they were locked up, and often threatened and abused there.

Talk about a violence charged atmosphere, Jalong, no wonder you developed PTSD.  Unreal story.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 10:28:00 AM

Yes he can and yes he did. Read it again.  He said he never hit fufu or fuelaw or what ever his name is.  
It's amazing to me, how long an ego bruise can last.  I guess its hard to heal.
I was involved with the seed for a very long time.
I never saw any physical abuse.  (anything is possible I must admit, but I was in the thick of it for a long time and NEVER saw it.) I can hear echoes of people saying violence of any kind will not be tollerated.  I remember someone being asked to leave because they got into someones face.  Yes I must admit a rap session or two may have gotten a little harsh and sometimes a little too vulgar for my taste (I can't tell you how long ago that was maybe 25 or 30 yrs ago.) and that was stopped and never happened again.
Greg I must admit, I kinda like you.  You are clever some what witty and likeable and I can even tell you have a heart (most of the time) :grin:
My god I don't get your vendetta.  
Antigen is another story.  
I loved the Seed.  I have alot of fond memories.
I always will.  If I had anything to do with you I gave it my all and I cared.  I gave a shit as to what happened to you.  No I'm not a seed slave or moonie type.  I'm pretty independent and always have been.  I also was never a favorite son. I guess I did "get it" as far as I'm concerned. :grin:

"This message was in response to Overlord"

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 10:44:00 AM

Jalong,
I'm sorry for your suffering.  I'm also glad you are healing.

Greg,
Please don't sensationalize.  Jalong said she had PTSD before she came in. Her abuser was  not a known sexual predator.  He was an asshole and a kid himself (I'm not making excuses for him )He did an inexcusable act and I'm sure none of this was known at the time.

Jalong,
I would not have wanted to be in your shoes sitting in the group with him right there either.

[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-09-22 08:01 ]

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 11:27:00 AM

Lauderdale, who put that kid and other questionable characters in positions of authority over all those nonconsenting other kids? Think it was all Bruce's idea? That, somehow, he flew in under the "awareness" radar and scammed his way onto staff? I bet it wasn't even his idea. When staff asked me if I wanted to go on staff, it was an offer one couldn't refuse.

Seems there's a lot you didn't see going on. Forced strip searches are violence. Tackling someone for trying to walk away is violence. If these thing never happened in The Seed, then why was I expecting them when I landed up in Straight? Why was I not the least bit surprised to see someone thrown to the floor and sat on for refusing to say they were addicts and thankful for the "help"?

I can guess why cause I succumbed to it myself to a degree. We called that love. We repeated to ourselves and each other constantly that we did these violent things to each other out of love. Failure to adopt that perspective was just asking for a heaping helping of "love" yourself.

When I first got out, I couldn't sort my mind out about it well enough to even make a statement to law enforcement about the time I got sat on then bounced off the walls of a timeout room for awhile. At the time, in my mind, it was my fault. After all, I had a choice. I could have lied and said I was sorry for trying to get away. So I chose to get my ass kicked, right?

But it's been years and years. You still think it's a loving act to tackle someone who's trying to get away from you? Or have you actually blocked those incidents from your memory?

All religion is dumb. It's one big story they're feeding you so you'll  behave on Earth. If there is a god, then he's a prick.
--Howard Stern, American radio personality

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: wtaylorg on September 22, 2005, 11:40:00 AM

I myself was never really physically abused. At least not in the traditional use of the term. I was pounced on a few times and could feel the hate coming from peoples eyes often enough. The abuse that was delivered to me was a systematic taking away of liberty and desire.

That being said, 2 former very good friends of mine both Seed kids and graduates of the program, told me about instances of rape that occurred to them whileon the program. This was while I was still involved with the program, early 80's, Both instances happened at foster homes by oldcomers/timers. One of the guys that had this happen to them has never seemed right. I lost track of him some yrs ago, but I hope he found therapy or a way to put it behind him.

I know the instances were brought to staff and the person was told to get over it. In what words I'm not sure. I suspect staff told them it was "not important".

It's just another example of  the debasing treatment we all received in way form or another.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2005, 12:32:00 PM

Sensationalize?  Are you freaken kidding me?

How in the world could anything I say be more "sensational" than the words of a 16 year old girl, being held captive in a drug rehab with her rapist as one of the people in charge?  Know wonder she had PTSD before she went to the seed, and no wonder it worsened while she was there.

Sensationalize?

Get a grip...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 22, 2005, 12:36:00 PM

Quote

My god I don't get your vendetta.  

Why must you assume I even have one?  Consider this..I have spent a considerable amount of my time and effort to make a place where the people I supposedly have a vendetta against could feel comfortable telling their side of the story, you included.

Why must everything and everyone be framed in black and white here?  

My personal feelings about the program is that it was generally harmfull. I have studied what it was, how it was done, who dun it and where it headed. It is of general interest to me. I love the topic, and I enjoy the people who get something out of the forum.

Sue me if you don't like it. There are several lawyers right here on the forum to choose from.

 :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 01:03:00 PM

Antigen
 So you were on "Staff" at Straight Inc.?
How long did you work there?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 01:07:00 PM

No, I was on a newly invented phase called pre-training. I had every intention of hanging around through the trainee and, possibly, Jr. staff phases if I had to in order to escape to a college dorm or real job or something far, far away. But things got really .... intense, shall I say, while the HRS investigation was going on. A lot of us just up and split the day after all newcomers got started over and all days off and other "priviledges" were called in. I was one of those.

Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 01:15:00 PM

Antigen,
You were never at the"Seed".  Straight INC. is not the seed.  The same things that happened to you at "Straight Inc. did not happen to you at the SEED.  Can you get that into your head you seem to have a problem differentiating the two.  
Maybe you shoud seek help in figuring this concept out.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 01:26:00 PM

Then can you explain why I was just about the only newcomer who was expecting it? How would you know what Straight was like? Did you spend any time in Straight?

I did. You can keep on telling yourself that it was completely different. But I'm at a loss as to how you can keep believing it. So many fellow Seedlings have told you about the rapes and other violence that occured in the Seed. You never answer them. Only me. Why is that?

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 01:46:00 PM

No I was never at straight just like you were never on the Seed program.


And in answer to your question.  How the hell do you who I 've sent a private messages to.  Maybe I have asked.  You assume so much.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 01:52:00 PM

Let's just say the McNultys didn't always strictly abide by rules like "no talking behind backs" and "what goes on here stays here."

The fact remains that all I learned about the Program while my family was involved w/ the Seed held true and came in very handy when I found myself in Straight.

It's so obvious. John's story is that all those excesses and all the brutality was the fault of rebellious, misbehaving St. Pete parents. But ask anybody who was in Cleveland. They all got strip searched too. So did the kids in Ft. Lauderdale. Thom says he doesn't remember it. But there's a lot he doesn't remember.

I do clearly remember knowing that a strip search was a part of intake and that people who tried to walk or run away would be tackled to the ground and held there till they gave up.

How did I come to think that? Was it some sort of mental telepathy w/ those misbehaving St. Pete parents? Or could it possibly be that these practices really were carried on from the Seed?

Your explanation just seems a little far fetched to me. Essentially, you're saying that all of us who remember these things are just delusional, bitter and/or making things up. It doesn't wash, Lauderdale. It just doesn't.

Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: rjfro22 on September 22, 2005, 02:10:00 PM

Antigen
             You were not in the Seed. Making sandwiches for the seed as a small child does not make you an ex -Seedling or a pro on the Seed. What are you talking about, so many people posting violent abuses and rapes, I only  read a couple of postings.  You are blowing thing way out of proportion.  Straight and the Seed were two different places, please don't blur them.
The only abuses I remember at the Seed was when someone was in the hot seat, some people sometimes became a little to cruel, and for people or did not want to be there (forced by their parents) well of coures they would feel abused. The Seed was like a bootcamp , it was a tough love program,  it worked for me.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 22, 2005, 02:11:00 PM

Strip searches: People atttempted to bring drugs into the program, usually pot. I can't even believe this needs explaining.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: wtaylorg on September 22, 2005, 02:11:00 PM

Check your private messages Ft. Lauderdale

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 22, 2005, 02:15:00 PM

...and for the record, strip searches weren't arbitrarily decided upon as a pre-emptive, they began only after newcomers were caught with drugs on the premises at Andrews Ave.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 02:23:00 PM

Bullshit, plain and simple.

Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
PERICLES (430 BC)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 03:39:00 PM

Antigen,
That is why searches were done.  They were only done at the initial intake. Wouldn't that make sence to you.

Then again not much does , sometimes.

Maybe you should stick to sandwiches. :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 03:40:00 PM

Wtaylor-check your private messages.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 04:05:00 PM

again please, thanks

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 04:25:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-22 12:39:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Antigen,

That is why searches were done.  They were only done at the initial intake. Wouldn't that make sence to you.

No, not to me nor to people who run most legitimate rehabs. I was actually shocked when I landed up in DeKalb and then Macon county juvy (no crime, just an extradition order signed by one of your buddys on the bench in Pinellas) and was not strip searched. Turns out, only state prisons routinely strip search new inmates. Not county jails nor holding facilities. Imagine that.

Tell me something, how often did you actually find drugs or weapons stuffed up someones ass or cooch? Does it make sense to you to go on humiliating kids in this way even though it always turned out to be pointless? But it wasn't pointless, was it? There was a point to it. It just had nothing to do w/ the rediculous notion that middle class white kids were likely to stuff contraband up their asses, or even to expect a strip search at a "rehab".

History gives us a kind of chart, and we dare not surrender even a small rushlight in the darkness. The hasty reformer who does not remember the past will find himself condemned to repeat it.
--John Buchan

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 04:28:00 PM

Once again... you were at straight not the seed.

I'm sorry if something happened to you at straight,that was out of line.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 04:37:00 PM

So then... now you're suggesting that the Seed didn't do strip searches? Only Straight did that.

Actually, it didn't bother me. Would have, likely, if I hadn't been expecting it. Shit, I can only imagine how I might have acted if any of it had been a surprise. But it wasn't, Terry. Everything from the intake "interview" all the way through the nab raps, all of it was just exactly what I expected based on 10 years close contact with the Seed and Seedlings.

Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 04:49:00 PM

Why are you making this so friggin complicated.
Yes they did a search whenever anyone came on the program to see if the person had drugs on them.

Do you get it yet?

You are implying  that you were searched inappropriately at straight.  I'm sorry if that occured.

Plain and simple.

The End.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 04:54:00 PM

Hey I have 4 younger siblings- they all knew about the seed too.

My at the time my 12 yr old brother was told by one of my "old friends" that the seed sucked.  He punched them.  

I guess he got a good impression of the Seed.

My younger brothers never went into the seed.  They didn't need it.  

I never pressed it.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 22, 2005, 04:59:00 PM

Dear Ginger,
I personally didn't have to perform many strip searches (one of the priveledged senior staff as you are so found of saying), but to answer your question directly, not often. The word was out in Ft. Lauderdale. The last one I did where I actually found something (and maybe Marshall or others remember this because the guy was from Albany, Ga., and what was found was shown to the group as an example, if you try you will be caught): The guy pulled down his underwear and had his works kit with dope in it taped behind his scrotum. I remember this one so well, not because of the dope, but, as a man I cringed, I could not fathom the pain he must have endured sitting in a car from Albany to Ft. Lauderdale after seeing what he'd done.
How hard is it to figure out that if your running a drug rehab, every precaution has to be taken to keep drugs off the premises.
Again, it blows my mind that this even needs explaining.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 22, 2005, 06:47:00 PM

Well how come the Seed, Straight and the other spin offs are the only ones to do this? Why don't they do strip searches in hospital settings? Surely they have the same desire to keep drugs away from their patients, don't they?

So... one time out of how many thousands of kids humiliated? And you sincerely think that's justified?

That's the problem here, I think. You guys are just obsessed w/ drugs the way the puritans were obsessed w/ witchcraft. Very like that, in fact.
 

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
--John Adams, U.S. President

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 22, 2005, 07:11:00 PM

Maybe because they are in hospital gowns. :idea:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: JaLong on September 22, 2005, 11:09:00 PM

Thanks Greg and Lauderdale. Bruce and Linda went into the Lauderdale seed and were transfered to St. Pete seed. They were staff by CHOICE. As you said Greg, both were really messed up themselves, Linda still as far as I know. I also agree they had no buisness being on staff. They came from one of the most dysfunctional family that I have ever seen. I have put this whole situation away to Anothers hands, and that is where it will stay. Yes, he was 15 yrs old and made a poor choice which obviously hurt me. It's in the past now, and I won't talk about it again. I appreciate the kind words. I was a wee tad afraid I'd get some smart a** comments. Yes!!! I guess I can be honest and share here. Thanks.
Julie

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 23, 2005, 12:05:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-22 08:27:00, Antigen wrote:


I can guess why cause I succumbed to it myself to a degree. We called that love. We repeated to ourselves and each other constantly that we did these violent things to each other out of love. Failure to adopt that perspective was just asking for a heaping helping of "love" yourself.

"

Exactly, and for the record, Straight, Inc. was a clone of the seed only missing the softshoeing short one and his cronies. I have watched videos of Straight and even been to raps in the modern day incarnation of the seed program ( a derivitive program of  a straight branch).  They use the steps, the serenity prayer, the same songs, the motivating, the open meetings, the confessionals..they yell "im coming home", they get put on refreshers...and yes they get strip searched. The similarities run much much deeper.

To dismiss things ginger says by saying "you weren't a seedling" is just avoiding the topic.  You may disagree, and you may have a very rational and reasonable argument to present.. but to try to shift focus from what she says onto her is an old tactic that just can't work here. It is a bit of learned behavior that frankly we could of all done without

Im sorry.
 :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 23, 2005, 07:26:00 AM

Greg- I'll tell you what.  You always reply with the same tactics your own self brother.  You might want to take a look at your posts there is alot of commonality that gets a little redundant to me as well....Just for the record. :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Stripe on September 23, 2005, 10:25:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-22 13:49:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Why are you making this so friggin complicated.

Yes they did a search whenever anyone came on the program to see if the person had drugs on them.



Do you get it yet?



You are implying  that you were searched inappropriately at straight.  





Plain and simple.
br>

The End."

I beg to differ with you.  My bother and I were in SR 84 in Ft. Lauderdale begining March 13, 1973.  He was searched, I was not.  His clothes were taken and worn by male staff members, including John Underwood.  I saw my bother's clothing on John with my own eyes. My bag was searched but my clothes were not stolen.

APPARENTLY there were no hard and fast rules that I can see.  That's where the problem lies - it was all arbitrarily enforced.  Everything about the seed program was arbitrary.  That's why we have such differing experiences. Was the arbitraty enforcement of strip searches part of the control mechnaism? Probably; it makes sense to me. That's one of the mechanisims used to control prison populations.

That it was so arbitrary and we have such differeing experiences should be enough for all of us to question the validity of the entire experience.  It's like that George Orwell novel, 1984 - where some of us are more equal than others.  

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I feel left out because I didn't get searched. At this juncture, I'm really glad I was less equal than the others.

The whole inequity of experience is kind of creepy when you think about it.  What exactly were the criteria to search a kid? I mean, for my bother and I - we came from the same house, same experience, same family - so it figures that we should have been treated the same.  

Was there even a criteria?  Or was it used as  the "great equalizer" ?  Or, given Jalongs latest statements about her pre-seed rape (and jalong I mean no disrespect), were searches done because someone wanted to check out the "goods" on another kid?    

And, if the searchers did find dope, what was the protocol? Was that arbitrary, too?   Was it flushed, burned destoryed or used?  Was it turned over to the police or held as "evidence" ?  [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-23 07:30 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-23 07:33 ][ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-23 07:37 ]

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 10:32:00 AM

mabe the mustache just turned everyone off nd they didn't want to search you :rofl:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Stripe on September 23, 2005, 10:35:00 AM

you like me... you really, really like me....

I knew it all along. :cool:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 23, 2005, 10:41:00 AM

Well, in St Pete, it was universal, the strip search, and the rare instances they found anything they held it and threatened to turn it over to the police if you misbehaved.
There was some flack about this in the early press.


Ft Luaderdale, sorry you are not liking my writing style, but this is me..what you read is what you get.  I am trying to be as honest, straightforward, and open minded as I can be. I hope you are striving for the same goals.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 23, 2005, 10:51:00 AM

Ditto :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 11:06:00 AM

Well, my dear brother seems to be under the impression that it all depended on how willingly one signed themselves in. And that makes sense in the context of strip search as a means to humiliate and break one's spirit.

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 23, 2005, 11:53:00 AM

It has been suggested to me that I tone down that which can be interpreted as inflammatory rhetoric. I agree. (success not guaranteed, however)  I?ve also been asked to directly respond to questions, allegations, accusations. I agreed. I believed, and still do, it?s a good idea.
But now I have a question. At what point do I draw the line?
It occurred to me, in reading Stripe?s above post, the potential for allegations is infinite.
Stealing and wearing other peoples? clothes is a perfect example. Initially, I believed that the difference between legitimate, credible accusations and/or questions would be obvious to anyone. It goes without saying that was ridiculously naive on my part, even stupid.
So, at what point do I draw the line? The answer, of course, is up to me, but for the record, I have no intention of exhuming, resurrecting and hiring Roberto Clemente to field those statements that come from so deep in the outfield I have no interest in even attempting to field. (that wasn?t too inflammatory, was it?)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 23, 2005, 12:08:00 PM

Ooops, in my haste, I forgot to answer one of Stripe's questions that was legit.
At Fort Lauderdale (SR84) confiscated drugs were keep in a safe, w/o any kind identification as to it's origin attached. The City of Davie Police Dept. came, (at their discretion as to when, etc.), and picked up the drugs. Elsewhere, I really don't remember, right now. I will attempt to have my memory jogged by reliable sources and get back to you.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: 80's Guy on September 23, 2005, 12:08:00 PM

wtaylorg, it's great to hear you are doing well.

As I posted once before, you and I spent several days distributing flyers in the early 80's. Also, paraphrasing Cleveland, if there was anything real about my experience, it was getting to know people like you there, who in my book were more authentic than 99% of the others.

All I can say is, you missed nothing original all the years to follow '85, to the very end.
A few of us weathered the storm and decided to be unpopular, while we made decisions that went against "staff" simply because they continued to promote the old party line that a real education was "bullshit," unless you had a "calling" like certain members that seemed to come from a line of doctors or lawyers. Or better yet, according to the top dog, "if you had that unmistakable aura of a politician or some other high ranking member of society, then you should go to school, just don't forget who made you.? IMO so much of it was about imaginary "blue blood lineage.". . . if you know what I mean.

About the only element of goodness I have remaining from all those years are certain positive points in my life, which I do attribute to the experience, regardless of human flaws, great or small. However, I have had to work hard, and continue to, trying to shed the hardened, competitive, paranoid, insecure, stressed-out edge that environment so effectively promoted. I, despite the strong opinions of many individuals who post, do not hate or resent anyone there, but I do feel sorry for them because despite (as anon wrote above the "unusual closeness") almost all of my "friends" there hardly knew people like you or me at all. I hate to quote popular culture, but when it came to the relationship between that group and me, I am reminded of Madonna's song "Nobody Knows Me." The same is true for me not knowing them.

I would like to believe that if they had really listened to what they were preaching things would have ended radically different, but many of the ones preaching had tremendous egos, so what can we expect, right? The worst for me was feeling the loss of friends at the very end. Without getting too overdramatic, I spent several nights in tears wondering if the emptiness I had been left with would ever go away. I can forgive, but am aware that those in power knew that their selfish decisions would unravel a wave of pain for so many of my friends who were so blind to manipulation and deceit on the part of the leadership. It took me at least one year to start seeing the "clear as day writing on the wall." But it was beautiful to wake up one morning and feel really free. The irony is of course that I thank all the ones who brought it all down because they did us one hellofa lifetime favor. Thank You wherever you all ran to. Obviously, I do not believe my version is the absolute Truth, but the funny part is that it no longer has to be for me to be free.

I know of one case that, IMO, couldn't live without the "falsely imposed structure" and threw himself in what I would consider a religious cult, within one year of the experience. I, on the other hand, have not gotten over an uneasiness with being a part of any group.

For you it was leaving that lifted the fog. For me it took witnessing the final days, when all the key players had had enough time to settle in to a comfortable place, where they could really start playing games with peoples' lives and loyalties. The myth died for me when not soon after that, I realized I never really wanted to be there or even wanted to ever know most of those people. They were very different than who I was and how I wanted to live my life. Perhaps, like you, I should have had the guts to walk away a long time ago, but. . .no regrets at this point, just working on a new place I can call my own.

I have decided, in fact, that except for one or two people that were always transparent about their lives and did not try to manipulate me or the way I looked at them, I want very little to do with the people I knew from that era. Actually, for the first time I really am applying the saying, which they taught me: "We are not really good for each other, so you go along your way, and I will find the road to where I want to be . . ." Best Wishes and Good Luck On Your Journey.  ::rainbow::  ::rainbow::
  [ This Message was edited by: 80's Guy on 2005-09-23 08:48 ][ This Message was edited by: 80's Guy on 2005-09-23 09:06 ]

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Stripe on September 23, 2005, 04:28:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 08:53:00, John Underwood wrote:

"It has been suggested to me that I tone down that which can be interpreted as inflammatory rhetoric. I agree. (success not guaranteed, however)  I?ve also been asked to directly respond to questions, allegations, accusations. I agreed. I believed, and still do, it?s a good idea.

But now I have a question. At what point do I draw the line?

It occurred to me, in reading Stripe?s above post, the potential for allegations is infinite.

Stealing and wearing other peoples? clothes is a perfect example.

So, at what point do I draw the line? The answer, of course, is up to me, but for the record, I have no intention of exhuming, resurrecting and hiring Roberto Clemente to field those statements that come from so deep in the outfield I have no interest in even attempting to field. (that wasn?t too inflammatory, was it?) "

So is it true or not? I don't think asking you whether this occurred is such an "out there" question. Please don't try to make me look crazy because you won't or can't yet acknowledge what you did.

I don't suppose there is any way you could answer this question, although it's not intended as a trap.  Perhaps it is best to leave it alone since it is obvious that there will be no acknowledgment. But I find your refusal to "exhume, resurrect, etc.", strange:  as if being accountable for your own actions is a bad thing.

As for the durgs, thanks for the answer.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 06:03:00 PM

Isn't it amazing, though. We got John, Terry and (occasionally) my brother all evidently thinking it's perfectly fittin' and proper to treat us like misbehaving newcomers. Bwahahahaha!  :rofl:

All of these comforting and reasonable things were taught by the ministers in their pulpits -- by teachers in Sunday schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were assaulted in the cradle -- in their mother's arms. Then, the schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense, and all the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled with lies -- lies that mingled with their blood.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 06:36:00 PM

Sorry, sorry, Robin. Didn't mean to leave you out.

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 23, 2005, 07:38:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-22 10:15:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Antigen,

You were never at the"Seed".  Straight INC. is not the seed.  The same things that happened to you at "Straight Inc. did not happen to you at the SEED.  Can you get that into your head you seem to have a problem differentiating the two.  

Maybe you shoud seek help in figuring this concept out."

I'm not trying to nose in where I don't belong, but I believe this needs to be said...

There is a problem differenating the two... actually, there is a problem differentiating maybe three, and then some.  Can you get that into your head?

In another post, JaLong brought up "Peterman" Helen Petermann.  She (Petermann) started off being a Seed parent from what I understand, but according to JaLong's post, she was doing an intake?  http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=8#133933 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11878&forum=8#133933)

I'm a little too pressed for time to find out what her role was at Straight, but I believe her designation was that of "Clinical Staff".  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

From Straight, Helen Peterman, with George Ross (another long-timer) formed LIFE, Inc.  

When I first found this board, there wasn't much going on in the LIFE arena.  However, in reading threads from The Seed and Straight, I can tell you firsthand, that LIFE was the same shit, and Petermann was running it.  The only differences were that there were that church pews were substituted for blue chairs, and Mac & Cheese replaced the PB&J diet - although it depended on the host home you were in. In some, there was "No Dinner Night".

At intake, I was also threatened by Petermann - though not with Juvie, but with "Palms".  Sarasota Palms was a psych hospital, which seemed to be her favorite ultimatum... because "If you go to Palms, you know you'll never have a life with a psych history"  (I had none then, and I don't consider being pissed at lying assholes now a mental illness either.)

Same shit, different program: hours long standoff until you're forced to sign the paper, grabbed and belt-looped off to a room to be strip searched while your clothes were seam-searched, the motivating, the "Love ya, have a seat"... it's all the SAME, man!  Why can't you seem to believe that?

Hell, The Seed is still carries on today in Kids Helping Kids in Ohio - which was formed directly from the Petermann Railroad:  http://www.kidshelpingkids.com/History.html (http://www.kidshelpingkids.com/History.html)


KHK is a precise LIFE (working backward now... Straight, Seed) CLONE!  Damn, it's a strange coincidence that their parent propoganda is the same shit I found buried in my house after leaving the program in '84. http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.html#khk (http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.html#khk)

Ominous how Barker termed it "The Seed" thirty years ago, and how it spawned.  Just like a doctor, you don't need to have the disease to recognize the symptoms.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 08:02:00 PM

another know it all that was'nt there. Don't just assume things. I was in the Seed and I will never speek of Straight, 'cause I was never there.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 08:13:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"another know it all that was'nt there. Don't just assume things. I was in the Seed and I will never speek of Straight, 'cause I was never there. "

I've seen the Red Sox several times, but I've never seen the Padres.  Still, I bet I could describe their ball park pretty accurately, and I bet they play by the same rules.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 08:27:00 PM

and all white artist from new york  paint the same picture.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 08:39:00 PM

Thanks, Helen. I apreciate the vote of confidence. You mean it wasn't all just my imagination after all? LOL

Check out this gem:
http://www.isaccorp.org/khk/openmeeting1.jpg (http://www.isaccorp.org/khk/openmeeting1.jpg)

Aside from a few gramatical improvements, this might have been written by Lybbi herself.

Here's the thing, though. I don't know if any of the rest of you know anything much about LIFE. What I know of it comes to me from having gone to school w/ a couple of LIFErs. Like the old/new (non NIDA funded) Seed, it seemed a little more laid back.

For example, 5th phase LIFEr girls were allowed to wear makeup and even to go on permissions w/ approved non LIFErs. I remember that from the Seed, too. My sister (cir `78 or so) had a good friend who wasn't a Seedling. Such a good friend, in fact, that she was willing to go down to SR 84 for an intrusive and just plain creepy checkout meeting in order for my sis to be allowed to associate w/ her. Straightlings were forbiden to even talk w/ LIFErs, but there was no such restriction on them. They thought it was weird.

But these are very minor differences. Like the difference between one location or timeframe and another. The similarities are just overwhelming. Especially when contrasted w/ what we like to call "the real world."

But some of these folks, my brother included, are still into the kool aid to a degree that they can't allow themselves to see that.

If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves.  It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions.


Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 08:44:00 PM

yea, yea, yea all the same and this rolex i got downtown for 40 bucks is the same as the real ones the guy told me so it must be true

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 23, 2005, 08:47:00 PM

Guys do you have to piss on our legs and call it rain?

Stripsearching is and will always be humiliating and degrading. And when something makes a point of humiliating and making people to feel powerless, last I checked thats called abuse?

The thing that REALLY kills me is the standing assumption that all are druggies... plenty of them were sent for other reasons or NO reason, like Mrs. Handbasket here.

 :roll: but yeah, I guess digital penetration of an adolescent child's sexual orfifaces and the degredation and powerlessness with it is part of the whole stepcraft bullshit, right?

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 08:50:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"another know it all that was'nt there. Don't just assume things. I was in the Seed and I will never speek of Straight, 'cause I was never there. "

Hey dip shit. Yeah, I'm talkin' ta' you! And don't go bawling about the rough treatment. You know very well you've said worse than that to captive little girls, spit flyin', temples throbbing. Did ya' get off on it?

There are currently over 350 topics on the Seed just in this forum, plus a few tangental references in some of the others. Then there's Wes Fager's exhaustive research. Go ahead, go to http://thestraights.com/ (http://thestraights.com/) and search on The Seed.

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic that I have to be the one to tell you this, but what went on there, what you saw and who you saw, uh... it didn't stay there. Secrets have a limited shelf life.

If you want to go on believing that the Seed was a singular, unique and beautiful thing, you'd best sell that modem. You won't be needing it much.

Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.

--Scott Tillinghast

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: rjfro22 on September 23, 2005, 09:10:00 PM

Dip-shit        Real nice way to talk to someone.
You were't in the Seed,  What's your problem,  they didn't let you in.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 09:16:00 PM

Where do you think I learned it? :rofl:

A year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.



--Pentagon advisor, Richard Perle, September 22, 2003

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 09:27:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 17:47:00, Nihilanthic wrote:



 :roll: but yeah, I guess digital penetration of an adolescent child's sexual orfifaces and the degredation and powerlessness with it is part of the whole stepcraft bullshit, right

Bill W. said it, so it must be OK......

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 09:40:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-21 08:45:00, John Underwood wrote:

No one here, not even the most adamant Seed haters, remembers the staff actually hitting anyone, yet fuelaw claims he was ?beat-up? by staff,...and more than once, both in Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Does this not give you cause to think about, question the validity of his claims?

No, it doesn't. See, your memory of the whole thing is so different from mine and from that of others. You want to call somebody a liar? When you first started posting, didn't you say the Seed had always been voluntary?

I'll stop just barely short of calling you a liar. In order to lie, you have to know what the truth is and consciously decide to say something different. I don't think that's the case. I think you believe it.

The question is why? I think it's because you held a glorified position in that cult. It made you important and loved and needed. What you don't seem to want to understand (you must put some effort into not knowing it, it's that obvious to the rest of the world) is that being affiliated w/ Seed is nothing to brag about.

Again, I mean it as sincerely as I've ever meant anything when I say that I know your intentions were good. Probably still are in whatever capacity you're still inflicting the program onto others. But you were and are the face of the Seed, which is a monster to a lot of people.

Nope, you're not a liar as far as I know. What you are is a bullshitter, and you're your own best customer.

Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
--Edward Everett

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 23, 2005, 11:43:00 PM

Hello again Ginger,
No, I never said The Seed was voluntary. Ginger, I was there via court order. Left to my own
device(s), I would never have entered rehab.
Well,.. never's a strong word, ...I certainly wouldn't have at that particular time in my life.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 23, 2005, 11:57:00 PM

...and yes Ginger, my memories are quite different from yours, though I'm sure the fact that you were still in elementary school and I was in my 20s has nothing to do with the clarity of the memories, right?
I was at a family reunion a number of years ago, hadn't seen a lot of relatives in decades. It was strange how my aunts, uncles and cousins who were much older than me remembered things from when I was 7, 8, 9 years old so much differently than me. At the time, it never occurred to me that they were full of shit, hell, I actually believed them. Thanks for setting me Straight. (or do I mean setting me Seed, it's so damn confusing)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 24, 2005, 01:21:00 AM

What a disjointed thread.


Everyone take a deep breath.


Two Points.


Helena Handbasket (luv the name)  Mrs. Peterman did almost every intake at the St Pete Seed, including mine early described as threatening me with Juvy if I didn't sign myself in for the 3 day "peek".  The seed started off, at the very beginning, violating the first and most contradicted rule. She then went on to be the head beehive in charge of intake at Straight, Inc., and then of course you know the rest, took the Seed model and created Life which further branched out into seed type programs still in existence.  The Seed lives!  KILL THE MONSTER!!! lol.


Second, the clothes thing. I have no idea where the clothes all went, but they indeed were confiscated when you went in, and my sister indicated a long long time ago that other people were wearing her clothes. John, just what was the procedure with the confiscated clothes anyway?

One more point..  Tom S.  Your story. I believe you heard it and believed it, but first lets clear up the "THC" thing. There was no such thing as street Thc, ever. However, early in the 70s animal tranquilizers (real pcp) was sold as THC, and then later some strange snortable concoctions were sold as THC...some of them contained PCP for sure, but they all looked different and they indeed were dangerous.I had one of the worse experiences of my life on the stuff.

But liquidating your brain? Comn..that story sounds like one of the many urban legions passed around. If the girl sat there with half her face paralyzed and a brain disfunction, and Art barker was blaming this on drugs in a punch bowl..I think the story indeed does need further skeptical investigation. What about the rest of the people who drank the punch?  What really was wrong with this girl?  Tom S., you are a doctor, but that doesn't automatically make your story believable. I am not suggesting any malice, just that maybe you are repeating a story that really at the heart of it has some real problems associated with it. Use your skills as a doctor and investigate your own story for  a second.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 24, 2005, 01:28:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 20:57:00, John Underwood wrote:

"...and yes Ginger, my memories are quite different from yours, though I'm sure the fact that you were still in elementary school and I was in my 20s has nothing to do with the clarity of the memories, right?

I was at a family reunion a number of years ago, hadn't seen a lot of relatives in decades. It was strange how my aunts, uncles and cousins who were much older than me remembered things from when I was 7, 8, 9 years old so much differently than me.

I think there is a point in here. Of course we all have different memories, because we view the experience from different perspective. Now you John, and correct me if I am wrong, viewed it as your savior at age 20 or so and thought that you should help all "druggies"  have the same savior as you did.

Unfortunately, many many of the thousands that were forced into the seed neither wanted or needed to be saved. The basic premise that the seed was good whether you needed it or not was flawed at the core.  Can you at least see that now, that for many, we neither wanted or needed it and it ended up being a destructive force in our lives? That many people's families became so devisive over the issue that they never fully recovered?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 01:59:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 15:36:00, Antigen wrote:

"Sorry, sorry, Robin. Didn't mean to leave you out.

Thanks Antigen -- I was starting to feel soooo alone...and it was like, freaking me out...being alone and all... :razz:

RMartin

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 02:09:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 22:21:00, GregFL wrote:


One more point..  Tom S.  Your story. I believe you heard it and believed it, but first lets clear up the "THC" thing. There was no such thing as street Thc, ever. However, early in the 70s animal tranquilizers (real pcp) was sold as THC, and then later some strange snortable concoctions were sold as THC...some of them contained PCP for sure, but they all looked different and they indeed were dangerous.I had one of the worse experiences of my life on the stuff.

BULLS***!! - you have NO IDEA what you're talking about, OK?  Don't be so naive - There were so many who manufactured and manipulated all the drugs on the street... take it from ME.  I KNOW what went down!  How dare you speak about something you know NOTHING about! Sorry to hear about your "Bad Trip" - get on board w/ the others... Nuf said! RM

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 24, 2005, 02:31:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 17:39:00, Antigen wrote:

"Thanks, Helen. I apreciate the vote of confidence. You mean it wasn't all just my imagination after all? LOL

Check out this gem:

http://www.isaccorp.org/khk/openmeeting1.jpg (http://www.isaccorp.org/khk/openmeeting1.jpg)


Aside from a few gramatical improvements, this might have been written by Lybbi herself.


Here's the thing, though. I don't know if any of the rest of you know anything much about LIFE. What I know of it comes to me from having gone to school w/ a couple of LIFErs. Like the old/new (non NIDA funded) Seed, it seemed a little more laid back.


For example, 5th phase LIFEr girls were allowed to wear makeup and even to go on permissions w/ approved non LIFErs. I remember that from the Seed, too. My sister (cir `78 or so) had a good friend who wasn't a Seedling. Such a good friend, in fact, that she was willing to go down to SR 84 for an intrusive and just plain creepy checkout meeting in order for my sis to be allowed to associate w/ her. Straightlings were forbiden to even talk w/ LIFErs, but there was no such restriction on them. They thought it was weird.


But these are very minor differences. Like the difference between one location or timeframe and another. The similarities are just overwhelming. Especially when contrasted w/ what we like to call "the real world."


But some of these folks, my brother included, are still into the kool aid to a degree that they can't allow themselves to see that."

Did someone say Kool Aid!!!??? yummy! I can and do only address my experience at the Seed in Ft. Laud from '71-'76 or so. I don't doubt anyone elses experience, from a different time frame or program since I was not there. For me to do so, would just add to the rumors and speculation and broad assumptions I see made here. If you guys want truth, I don't see how any other tact could help you arrive there. If the goal is sensationalism and half truths and rumors, well then you are on the right track.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: John Underwood on September 24, 2005, 09:55:00 AM

Good morning Greg, how are you?
Newcomers picked out (with staff approval) what clothes they wanted to keep with them. The rest went home with mom & dad. This all took place before they left intake. Stealing of any kind would have resulted in either the front row or out the door. No one was above this.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 12:41:00 PM

When - what dates are you referring to ?  Please be more specific.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 12:43:00 PM

No one was above what???? Stealing???

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Robin Martin on September 24, 2005, 01:44:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-24 06:55:00, John Underwood wrote:

"Good morning Greg, how are you?

Newcomers picked out (with staff approval) what clothes they wanted to keep with them. The rest went home with mom & dad. This all took place before they left intake. Stealing of any kind would have resulted in either the front row or out the door. No one was above this. "

For the record...that's what happened upon my intake - consequently, my mom got rid of those clothes and the rest of my 'sleazy' wardrobe before I returned home. We went on a shopping spree and I got a whole new wardrobe, for a whole new me!

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Robin Martin on September 24, 2005, 02:03:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 23:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Quote

On 2005-09-23 22:21:00, GregFL wrote:

One more point..  Tom S.  Your story. I believe you heard it and believed it, but first lets clear up the "THC" thing. There was no such thing as street Thc, ever. However, early in the 70s animal tranquilizers (real pcp) was sold as THC, and then later some strange snortable concoctions were sold as THC...some of them contained PCP for sure, but they all looked different and they indeed were dangerous.I had one of the worse experiences of my life on the stuff.

Sorry, Greg - I've edited my reply!  Something in a previous post touched a hot spot and I was responding to that post...not what I've quoted you saying here. I was involved VERY DEEPLY in the scene but was very discerning in what ended up on the streets. Yes, PCP is an animal tranquilizer & THC is a hallucinogen - two totally different drugs w/ totally different effects. You were probably very lucky to have experienced "one of the worse experiences of my life" if this prevented you from continuing your abuse of that drug; others were not so fortunate.

_________________
I bid you peace!

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 24, 2005, 03:27:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-23 23:09:00, Anonymous wrote:


BULLS***!! - you have NO IDEA what you're talking about, OK?  Don't be so naive - There were so many who manufactured and manipulated all the drugs on the street... take it from ME.  I KNOW what went down!  How dare you speak about something you know NOTHING about! Sorry to hear about your "Bad Trip" - get on board w/ the others... Nuf said! RM"

No, nowhere near enough said.

You were there? You know what got put into the punch bowl? You know what the girl's medical trouble was? And you know, to a dead certainty, that it was TCH w/ strychnine that killed that girl? How dare anyone question the word as it proceedeth from the mouth of.... hey, who originated the story, anyway? We still don't even know who's story we're fighing over; only that it was a Seed authorized story so it must be true, huh?

But.... it doesn't stand scrutiny at all, does it? Like most of the Seed mythology; like the gateway theory or that bit about "druggie attitudes" or the 95% success rate. I could go on and on.

Looks to me like just another case of Art the demagog appropriating someone's tragic story for use in promoting his cause. That is a monstrous thing to do. Do you understand that at all?

Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.

--Thomas Carlyle

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 24, 2005, 04:13:00 PM

Have you tried naps.

Maybe even 15-30 min.s.  It could make all the difference in the world.

 :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 24, 2005, 04:27:00 PM

No thanks. It took me awhile to finally figure it out. But I've learned never to close my eyes in the company of steppers. They'll rob ya blind then call you flawed, bitter and sick when you catch them at it.

Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2005, 12:33:00 AM

Robin,  what is it that causes you to lash out like that? I am sure you didn't mean it..but why? .

Yes, I do know what I am talking about it is you, irrespective of how involved you were "in the scene" that is just off base in your reply. There was never any such thing as street THC,Never. THC is the pyschotropic substance found in marijuana and the extraction has never found its way onto the black market. The closest thing to "THC" to ever hit the street was some turkish hashish, and this was fairly rare.

Never happened Robin. Now, there were various substances sold as THC, but actual THC never hit the road as a street drug.




John, thanks for the reply. I believe that was the official version of what was supposed to happen to your clothes, but others just have reported different results.  Interesting.  Thanks again for coming back and participating.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 25, 2005, 01:41:00 AM

Greg,
I smoked a bit of that Turkish hashish in the 70's. If I had known it was so rare, I might have saved some...no, probably not. :lol:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 25, 2005, 05:42:00 AM

Me either, didn't save not even a gram!

 :grin:  :grin:

but serious, Hash was rare and is a way of refining Marijuana into a more THC laden product. That is the closest we ever got to street THC in the united states.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 01:31:00 PM

I'm confused. I thought THC was marijuana, and I did not think marijuana was a psychotropic drug. I thought it was relatively mild.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 25, 2005, 01:50:00 PM

THC is one of a couple of hundred canabanoid compounds in cannabis. Here's one good source for information, opinion, artwork and other material related to cannabis:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis.shtml (http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis.shtml)

And a question for all. Does anyone else think it's funny as hell that the alleged experts on all things substance abuse related don't know the first thing about it?

say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 25, 2005, 02:07:00 PM

Quote

And a question for all. Does anyone else think it's funny as hell that the alleged experts on all things substance abuse related don't know the first thing about it?

It may even turn out to be funnier than hell when all is said and done. Good thing the alleged experts have a place like this to come to get the information they need to be effective.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: ChrisL on September 25, 2005, 10:14:00 PM

You don't have to be a Shit expert to know what Shit smells like, so to speak....

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 25, 2005, 11:45:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-25 11:07:00, Thom wrote:

"

Quote

And a question for all. Does anyone else think it's funny as hell that the alleged experts on all things substance abuse related don't know the first thing about it?

It may even turn out to be funnier than hell when all is said and done. Good thing the alleged experts have a place like this to come to get the information they need to be effective."

Hey Thom - what exactly were Barker's credentials?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 26, 2005, 01:04:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-25 20:45:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:

"

Quote

On 2005-09-25 11:07:00, Thom wrote:


"

Quote

And a question for all. Does anyone else think it's funny as hell that the alleged experts on all things substance abuse related don't know the first thing about it?

It may even turn out to be funnier than hell when all is said and done. Good thing the alleged experts have a place like this to come to get the information they need to be effective."

Hey Thom - what exactly were Barker's credentials?"

I'm not sure, beyond 'been there, done that, lived in his car for a time'. Others here who know him better could better answer that one. I never heard of his having had 'formal training' but he may have had some. The best source, of course, would be the man himself.


My encounters with 'formally trained' counselors who have not had personal experience overcoming addiction would seem to indicate that they are generally underqualified in that they can rarely sufficiently identify with the addict, not having had the same, or similar life experiences. Again, this is a generalization, and I do know exceptions, but usually the thought processes of an addict or abuser can become so convoluted that it takes someone who has previously been in that state to truley identify the issues, and know how to lead the willing client to a better place.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 26, 2005, 02:47:00 AM

Art Barker's "qualifications" were a huge ego, a bunch of kiss assers around him to further inflate said ego, a society and government in panic that allowed him to pretty much do whatever he wanted for  a time,  a part time job as a comic at the playboy club, a couple bit parts in some pretty horrible movies, a propensity to break into a softshoe dance at any moment, a bunch of young misguided kids acting as thugs standing guard, parents who participated in holding kids captive at Art's direction,   and a stint in AA.

Did I miss any?

 :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 26, 2005, 02:53:00 AM

DISCLAIMER: This post deals with a normal bodily function, but uses some vulgar slang expressions to make certain points. If you feel you may be offended by such language, it is advised that you skip this one. The humor-impaired may run into problems here as well.

Quote

On 2005-09-25 19:14:00, ChrisL wrote:

"You don't have to be a Shit expert to know what Shit smells like, so to speak...."

True, true...butt it takes a discerning nose to recognise 'good shit' from 'bad shit', even though sometimes the expression, 'good shit' is nearly synonomous with 'bad shit'. What's almost as funny as hell to me is that you hear people talk about 'bad ass shit' in a positive context, usually referring to dope, yet we hardly ever hear the expression 'good ass shit' except, perhaps, during the course of a conversation about Preparation H or a similar product. An exception to the above would be when an illicit drug user happens across some really 'good shit', they may be more inclined to show their 'ass' shortly after burning, snorting, or injecting it. If you have a good ass, it is generally best left alone, but not unguarded.


Ironically, one would likely not use such a product as Preparation H unless they had a 'bad ass', and this condition may exist with or without the presence of shit. This is where the expression 'no shit' comes into play. 'No shit' to a dope fiend is generally considered to be bad ass news, whereas the same circumstance presented to a non-dope user is neither good or bad news, because they have no cause to give a shit.


No shit to someone who suffers from constipation, however, is not a welcome outcome, and can, over time, make the sufferer feel like shit. Often, upon observing someone in this condition, a well-intentioned friend or aquantance may offer the suggestion that the sufferer may be constipated. The usual sufferer response can range from the relatively mild, 'no shit' to a more extreme, and harsh retort such as 'no shirt, shitlock!!!' however, in cases where the sufferer is severely uncomfortable, he or she may, with no verbal warning, proceed to beat  shit out of the well meaning friend or aquantance. It is best, therefore, to perhaps be supportive, but not say shit. In some populations, the expression 'good ass shit' (noun) is shortened to 'good shit', which can easily be mistaken for the expected result of ingesting a laxative, which often results in the verb form of 'good shit'


Another illustration, which may help to bring clarity to points made above would be this hypothetical situation:

 If you were to ask two different people if they 'have anything for a headache', Person One might offer Tylenol or a similar product, whereas Person Two, having been asked the identical question, using the same inflection, could very well produce a sledge hammer, and/or a screaming child. A safer question, then, would be 'do you have anything to relieve a headache'


Another observation:
Often, out of a sense of false pride, a 'bad ass' with a 'bad ass' will opt to forego the afore mentioned Preparation H and Tylenol treatments, and pretend they are not uncomfortable. I am usually not comfortable in the company of this personality type.

Further more, and in conclusion,
dope, smack, crack, acid, weed, good/bad shit, stoned, wired  :em:  , crash, f'd up, wasted, strung out, busted, withdrawls, eight balls, shoot up, drive-by, waste, toast, toasted, horse, (any equestrians?)....
Boy, do I miss the good old days!





_________________
later, Thom

I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia!

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 26, 2005, 03:06:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-25 23:47:00, GregFL wrote:

"Art Barker's "qualifications" were a huge ego, a bunch of kiss assers around him to further inflate said ego, a society and government in panic that allowed him to pretty much do whatever he wanted for  a time,  a part time job as a comic at the playboy club, a couple bit parts in some pretty horrible movies, a propensity to break into a softshoe dance at any moment, a bunch of young misguided kids acting as thugs standing guard, parents who participated in holding kids captive at Art's direction,   and a stint in AA.



Did I miss any?



 :grin: "

Greg, with the exception of Art's mood-lightening soft shoe routines, and a stint in AA, your examples don't seem to demonstrate an understanding of the question. You may wish to re-read it, and try again.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2005, 03:32:00 AM

The point which flys over your step invested brain Thom is that Art Barker didn't have any qualifications that anyone has been able to demonstrate. In contrast, he was severly undereducated and totally ego-centric but devoid of any formal training. His only formal education came from a Ft Lauderdale diploma mill that closed shortly after awarding him a degree.

Remember that Honesty rule? You know, the first and most violated rule?  How does a diploma from a diploma mill hanging in your office resolve with this step?

Anyone?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 26, 2005, 03:47:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-26 00:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The point which flys over your step invested brain Thom is that Art Barker didn't have any qualifications that anyone has been able to demonstrate. In contrast, he was severly undereducated and totally ego-centric but devoid of any formal training. His only formal education came from a Ft Lauderdale diploma mill that closed shortly after awarding him a degree.



Remember that Honesty rule? You know, the first and most violated rule?  How does a diploma from a diploma mill hanging in your office resolve with this step?



Anyone?



"

did you mean invested or infested, well, same difference, I suppose. Did Art claim to have formal training? By severly undereducated, do you mean he was instructed at knife point? by a Butcher? or what? What would you consider to be adequate qualifications? Some Ph.D. or something? [ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-09-26 00:48 ]

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 26, 2005, 11:38:00 AM

Infested. severely.


Sorry for the typo. Thanks for diverting off the topic onto my typos.

What about the phony diploma. Care to answer to that one?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2005, 12:19:00 PM

no phony diploma.  An honorary coctorate.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 26, 2005, 12:34:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-26 00:47:00, Thom wrote:

Did Art claim to have formal training?

Art made a lot of wildly expansive claims. Here's a nice sampling of some of the more entertaining ones:

http://fornits.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php? ... =8&start=0 (http://fornits.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?Sort=&mode=viewtopic&topic=3452&forum=8&start=0)

It was not the least bit entertaining as a young kid to have my parents believe all his bullshit.

The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.
--Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 12:05:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-26 09:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"no phony diploma.  An honorary coctorate."

Was that a subliminal typo?

 :grin:

But in any event...tell me something. How does one get an honorary doctorate froma  diploma mill?

What a funny concept!

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 08:24:00 AM

I was there when the university gave it to him in 1972. Cocterate sucker.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 08:44:00 AM

In 1973 Fort Lauderdale College, an accredited state institution, purchased The Art Institute, changed its name to The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale.
(AiFL) degree and diploma programs are licensed by means of accreditation through the Florida State Department of Education, Commission for Independent Education ( 2650 Apalachee Parkway, Suite A, Tallahassee, FL 32301; 850-245-3200; toll-free 888-224-6684).
AiFL is accredited by the Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools (ACICS) (750 First Street, N.E., Suite 980, Washington, DC 20002-4241; 202-336-6780), a national accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education, to award Bachelor of Science and Associate of Science degrees, as well as diplomas.
The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale is approved for the training of veterans and eligible veterans? dependents and is authorized under federal law to enroll non-immigrant alien students.
It is from here that Art Barker received his honorary doctorate. He made no claims to have any formal education, nor did he ever refer to this degree as anything more than honorific.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 09:49:00 AM

Honorary doctorate in what?

According to the press and in contrary to your spin on it,  in 1973 the place he got his "diploma" from was shut down BY THE STATE in 1972.

Maybe his "diploma" and his "doctorate" are two different things, but I wouldn't wrap fish in either.

Again, what was his "doctorate" in, and how did he accomplish getting it?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 09:55:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-27 05:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I was there when the university gave it to him in 1972. Cocterate sucker."

Really? the other anon just claimed it was a "doctorate" from the "art institute" what university was that, and how long did he study for his "doctorate"?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 10:01:00 AM

Hey Greg,
Completly off topic.  I thought about you, okay actually prayed for you, during the hurricanes and was just wondering if you were traveling durin or through them.  Anyway, glad to see your posts.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 10:01:00 AM

so which is it, does/did Art have a "doctorate from Ft Lauderdale College (non-googleable BTW), The Art institue, The Art Institute of Florida, or a university so far not revealed, or some other institution?

If it was from "The Art Institute", was this really a diploma mill, and if not, how did Art earn this distinction. You indicated that someone bought the files from "the art institute", but that says nothing about this operation...




Lets here all about it!

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 10:03:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-27 06:49:00, GregFL wrote:

"Honorary doctorate in what?



According to the press and in contrary to your spin on it,  in 1973 the place he got his "diploma" from was shut down BY THE STATE in 1972.



According to the press and the administrations' spin on it there were WMDs in Iraq. If it's reported by the press it must be true, right?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 10:12:00 AM

There used to be a very popular bumper sticker, seen frequently in Pinellas county, some of you must remember, it read:
"THE ST. PETERSBURG TIMES. GOOD FOR TRAINING PUPPIES AND WRAPPING FISH."

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 10:59:00 AM

There was also this saying..."st Pete times, multi-time winner of the pulitzer prize" and another "St Pete Times...Florida's best newspaper". In any event, the quote did not come from there.

But in spite of that, I am asking for independent confirmation outside the scope of The reporting or some contrived justification for the "doctorate".

Anyone?  

BTW, why don't you come back out from behind that anon moniker...with the way you guys all divert topics a la Seed communication 101 , it is hard to tell who is jumping off topic and attacking another poster or other source without your forum handle.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 27, 2005, 11:10:00 AM

"The way you guys"  "Steppers"

Why don't you just go back 40 years and say
"you people".

At least it seems you have moved on from the synonon shit.  So I should give you credit for that.

Talk about side stepping and soft shoers.  I watch Antigen dance all the time.  Its a regular
Hoedown. (pardon my spelling) :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 27, 2005, 11:12:00 AM

No, you are a little confused there my good man. The seed was replete with Synanon style treatment. Initially I thought a direct connection might be there, but you may go back over a year ago to a post title called

"art barker likely never at synanon".

You are a little behind the 8 ball here.  How the synanon treatment modalities got to the seed is still a mystery..

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: cleveland on September 27, 2005, 03:59:00 PM

Greg,

AA, Synanon ("Sinners Anonymous") and The Seed all were derived from the Oxford Group movement. The goal of the Oxford Group members was to live like the original members of the christian church - so things like purity, group confession, moral inventories, 'carrying this message to all those we can help,' slogans, etc. were all derived from this group. The Agent Orange site has a ton of information and it was an eye opener for me how much of the original impulse for all of these groups had their origins in the 1920s and 30s!

Walter

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 28, 2005, 12:08:00 PM

Little irony for ya?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2633187.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2633187.stm)

Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow;

He who would search for perls must dive below.

Prolougue (from preface to
the Panther Book)
John Dryden, All for Love, Prolougue

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 28, 2005, 12:49:00 PM

You really seem so obsessed with cannabis.

Did you ever grow out of that? :roll:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 28, 2005, 01:53:00 PM

No, actually I think cannabis is a useful medicinal herb, mildly pleasant w/ few side effects, none of them serious.

You want to see some people obsessed w/ the stuff? Look into Enoch Gordis. That dingbat has been busted several times falsifying research in order to support his (cult's) view that it's a big scary deadly threat to society.

By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on September 28, 2005, 02:01:00 PM

"You want to see some people obsessed w/ the stuff? Look into Enoch Gordis. That dingbat has been busted several times falsifying research in order to support his (cult's) view that it's a big scary deadly threat to society."

NO I REALLY DON'T, THANK YOU. :silly:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: ChrisL on September 28, 2005, 10:22:00 PM

Ginger -
I thought this other article on the same site was very interesting too...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2498493.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2498493.stm)

Still alive & kicking in LA
via the Gulf Coast

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 28, 2005, 10:49:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-27 06:49:00, GregFL wrote:

"Honorary doctorate in what?



According to the press and in contrary to your spin on it,  in 1973 the place he got his "diploma" from was shut down BY THE STATE in 1972.



Maybe his "diploma" and his "doctorate" are two different things, but I wouldn't wrap fish in either.



Again, what was his "doctorate" in, and how did he accomplish getting it?



"

I took a course in Commercial Art at The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale in either '74 or '75. but, hey! if it was in 'The Press' that they were shut down, maybe I just dreamt it. :em:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: marshall on September 29, 2005, 12:19:00 AM

Thanks for that link, chris. My sister-in-law has been a heavy pot smoker for decades and has been on prescription anti-depressants for the past 5 or 6 years. I've been telling her for years that the two are antagonistic (re serotonin levels) and urged her to quit or at least cut down on the pot to see if she still needed the anti-depressants. I'm printing that article for her.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 02:40:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-27 12:59:00, cleveland wrote:

"Greg,



AA, Synanon ("Sinners Anonymous") and The Seed all were derived from the Oxford Group movement. The goal of the Oxford Group members was to live like the original members of the christian church - so things like purity, group confession, moral inventories, 'carrying this message to all those we can help,' slogans, etc. were all derived from this group. The Agent Orange site has a ton of information and it was an eye opener for me how much of the original impulse for all of these groups had their origins in the 1920s and 30s!



Walter"

Yes Walter, but for all the commonality of origen in the synanon and AA, the synanon SEEMS to be the originator of the "Come down on you" rap and many other techniques used at the seed.  One cannot deny the origins of the seed lay in AA or that also the origins of the synanon come from there as well, but what I am saying is where do the specific synanon style (not AA) treatment modalities used at the seed come from? How did they find their way to the seed?  This is the part that remains a mystery. Art Barker said several years ago to a reporter after denying any connection to the synanon that people just started showing up and bringing ideas with them. Who was he alluding to?

While we are on the subject of the synanon, the synanon became a rather bizzare head shaving,  dancing, tambourene beating cult that put rattlesnakes in their "enemies" mailboxes and many other way off the wall things.

I spent some time on their website several years ago researching weather Art Barker was ever there (very likely not).  Contained within their website were people almost identical to the Staffers and seed defenders we have here, glossing over all the negatives and the people that dared to critize and instead proclaimed how it had "Saved" and "helped" people.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 02:44:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-28 19:49:00, Thom wrote:

"

Quote

On 2005-09-27 06:49:00, GregFL wrote:


"Honorary doctorate in what?





According to the press and in contrary to your spin on it,  in 1973 the place he got his "diploma" from was shut down BY THE STATE in 1972.





Maybe his "diploma" and his "doctorate" are two different things, but I wouldn't wrap fish in either.





Again, what was his "doctorate" in, and how did he accomplish getting it?





"

I took a course in Commercial Art at The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale in either '74 or '75. but, hey! if it was in 'The Press' that they were shut down, maybe I just dreamt it. :em: "

Good one Thom!  I guess it doesn't really matter that that isn't where Art got his supposed degree tho, does it..as long as you are able to throw a little water on the fire.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Thom on September 29, 2005, 04:06:00 AM

I was responding to the question based on the information in this post:

Quote

On 2005-09-27 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"In 1973 Fort Lauderdale College, an accredited state institution, purchased The Art Institute, changed its name to The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale.

(AiFL) degree and diploma programs are licensed by means of accreditation through the Florida State Department of Education, Commission for Independent Education ( 2650 Apalachee Parkway, Suite A, Tallahassee, FL 32301; 850-245-3200; toll-free 888-224-6684).

AiFL is accredited by the Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools (ACICS) (750 First Street, N.E., Suite 980, Washington, DC 20002-4241; 202-336-6780), a national accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education, to award Bachelor of Science and Associate of Science degrees, as well as diplomas.

The Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale is approved for the training of veterans and eligible veterans? dependents and is authorized under federal law to enroll non-immigrant alien students.

It is from here that Art Barker received his honorary doctorate. He made no claims to have any formal education, nor did he ever refer to this degree as anything more than honorific.

"

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on September 29, 2005, 07:47:00 AM

Lets get to the bottom of this.

The Art Institute of Ft Lauderdale never awarded Art Barker any degree that I know of, honorary or otherwise.

This institution  has had a PHYSICAL LOCATION since 1968 but only offered "diploma" courses in Commercial Art, Interior Design, and Fashion Illustration in its early years.

The "Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale" wasn't  even awarded a license as a vocational school until 1975, YEARS after Art's supposed "DOCTORATE" and long after the mysterious "art institute" shut its doors.


The Art institute of Ft Lauderdale wasn't even accredited to offer a TWO YEAR program until 1979. some 7 years after the infamous "doctorate" degree was obtained by one Art barker..

The Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale BOUGHT the name and files of the DEFUNCT "Art Institute", reportedly shut down by the state of florida for being a diploma mill in 1973, and likely just to obtain the name because after all, they were at the time primarily an  ART SCHOOL. This was 6 YEARS BEFORE THEY WERE ACCREDITED TO EVEN OFFER A TWO YEAR DEGREE never mind a "Doctorate".

It wasn't until 25 YEARS LATER that the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale was accredited to offer a BACHELOR PROGRAM.

The Art institute of Ft Lauderdale is a respected Vocational local institution, an alternative to people that cannot attend a university.  There are similar colleges thruout the US that serve a need and purpose for their communities.  As I write this THEY STILL, 33 YEARS LATER, DO NOT OFFER DOCTORATE DEGREES, HONORARY OR OTHERWISE. THEY NEVER HAVE AND LIKELY NEVER WILL.

They were not even accredited until 2000 in spite of the misleading writing by "anon" above. They now serve as a community type vocational school offering bachelor level degrees for things such as broadcasting, fashion merchandising, interior design  and Culinary arts.

Anyone here care to give some background on the real institution that awarded Art his "doctorate" the defunct "ART INSTITUTE", not affiliated in any means or manner with the "Art institute of Ft Lauderdale" in 1972 when Art was awarded his "doctorate"?  On whose authority were they awarding doctorate degrees?  With what accredidation? In what field is Art's "doctorate"? What were the circumstances surrounding his honorary "doctorate".

 This time when responding, please  try to use the first and most twisted rule .


Just when are you post program seedlings gonna stop making excuses for one another?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 29, 2005, 11:42:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-28 19:22:00, ChrisL wrote:

"Ginger -

I thought this other article on the same site was very interesting too...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2498493.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2498493.stm)



Still alive & kicking in LA

via the Gulf Coast"

I think that one's going to turn out to be bunk just like the "brain on drugs" cat scan photo ads.

There may be a very slight statistical relationship between cannabis use and mental illness. But the study you reference doesn't show causation, just correlation. In other words, it doesn't show that cannabis use cuases mental illness. It shows that people w/ mental illness may be more inclined to smoke than others. Which makes sense, since one of the effects of cannabis is euphorea for most people (paranoia, sometimes accute paranoia for others)

Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 29, 2005, 10:28:00 PM

ask any heroin addict what the first illegal drug used was; pot doesn't cause anyone to stick a needle in their arm, but here's something to put your investigative skills at, how many heroin addicts wouldn't have been heroin addicts without pot
i'll give you a hint not many

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: marshall on September 30, 2005, 12:25:00 AM

According to current official thinking, it isn't just pot that leads to heroin and cocaine abuse. Now they are asserting that tobacco and beer lead to heroin too!  :eek: If cigarettes lead to hard drugs, all of us on the program in the 70's should be addicts by now courtesy of Art and the Seed. Most junkies smoked pot before they began using heroin therefore pot leads to heroin addiction. Sounds logical, right? Most junkies also smoked cigarettes before they began using heroin therefore tobacco use leads to heroin addiction....right?  :???: The gateway theory of drug abuse, though widely embraced by current drug policy makers, has precious little support from any scientific studies and many studies specifically refute it.

"The National Drug Control Strategy for 1997 unveiled by U.S. drug czar Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey (Office of National Drug Control Policy, 1997) adopts a "zero-tolerance" policy toward youthful alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana use. The strategy regards all of these as "gateway behaviors" leading to serious drug abuse. In support of this contention, the Strategy cites a report by the Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA, 1994) entitled Cigarettes, Alcohol, Marijuana: Gateways to Illicit Drug Use. The CASA report has been widely influential, in part because CASA president Joseph A. Califano, Jr., is a former Secretary of the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

Califano and CASA relied on data from a 1991 government survey to show that both adolescents and adults who have used cigarettes, alcohol, and marijuana are hundreds of times more likely to use cocaine than those who have never used any of the three substances. Califano's conclusion: The most critical step in stamping out dangerous drug abuse is to prevent young people from embarking on the road to perdition through the gateway of smoking, drinking, or using marijuana."

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 30, 2005, 12:45:00 PM

Here's a fairly recent study on the medical attributes of marijuana:
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/marimed/ (http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/marimed/)

This study was commissioned by the ONDCP under Barry McCaffrey (aka General McCzar), who immediately round-filed it as it didn't support their agenda.

Though the primary focus of the study was just the medical efficacy, it also debunks the gateway myth. It also recomends that further study be done into the medical uses of this herb and that, until that can be done, certain patients who can benefit from it and who are not having such good luck w/ the more dangerous prescription drugs should be given access to the crude form immediately. That was in `96.

Much earlier in this tragedy, Nixon put together a commission to study marijuana. He chose Republican governor Ray Shaffer to head his commission. I suppose he mistook him for one of his faithful extra chromozome republicans. Well, the Shaffer report thorougly debunks the very idea of marijuana as a major problem. This report was also round-filed. And it's interesting to note that it came out 2 years after Art set up shop to treat pot smoking teenagers for their non-existant progressive, terminal, incurable diseas.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lib ... ncmenu.htm (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/ncmenu.htm)

The only thing I know of that can lead to opiate addiction is regular use of opiates by people who, for reasons as yet not clearly understood, are prone to opiate addiction.

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
--George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on September 30, 2005, 08:50:00 PM

nice try Marshall but cigarettes and alcohol were peripherals to the subculture, pot wasn't, and it was the trappings of the subculture, not just the drug that led to the hard stuff

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on September 30, 2005, 09:56:00 PM

Thank you! Finally, you admit this wasn't a drug rehab, but a culture rehab.

And exactly what was the subculture we were all supposed to be trying to save the word from? Was Raymond Shaffer a part of that subculture? How about the Consumer's Union? Are they a part of this vast left wing conspiracy to subvert the youth of a nation too?

When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: marshall on September 30, 2005, 11:15:00 PM

Nice try Marshall? I'm not the one asserting this ridiculous contention (that cigarettes or alcohol lead to heroin). It was from Gen McCaffrey, drug czar, so take it up with him. I just pasted the article:

"The National Drug Control Strategy for 1997 unveiled by U.S. drug czar Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey (Office of National Drug Control Policy, 1997) adopts a "zero-tolerance" policy toward youthful alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana use. The strategy regards all of these as "gateway behaviors" leading to serious drug abuse."

I think it's absurd to assert that cigarettes lead to heroin. I also think it's absurd that pot leads to heroin, so I disagree with both you and the general. I'm not advocating marijuana use by any means. I personally have no use for it. As I've mentioned, I've smoked it exactly once in 30 years. I have no use for cigarettes either but will defend any adult's right to kill themselves via tobacco if they so choose.

BTW, I agree with Ginger that the whole 'subculture' thing is crap and one area where the seed really went whacko...leading to the silliness of attacking rock music as 'druggie music', certain styles of clothes, haircuts, slang, etc. As stupid as the 'culture wars' going on now. Reminds me of the religious right's tirades against secular humanism. Sorry, I have no use for the Seed's brand of culture or subculture either. BTW, listening to Sinatra will ultimately lead you to join the mafia and listening to Dean Martin will make you a drunk too.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Napolean Bonafart on October 01, 2005, 01:55:00 AM

I was smoking cigarettes at 10 dropped acid at 11. Smoked pot at 12 and did coke at 19. Did diadid and morphine through a hospital stay. Real drugs. Pot doesn't lead to heroin.

Nothing of value to the individual happens by coercion.

--Plato

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 08:47:00 AM

And listening to Jo-Lo will make your butt grow...

 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

Gawd, 30 years later, people still spouting the gateway theory?  Still fighting the "subculture"?

When will the madness end?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 02:43:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-29 04:47:00, GregFL wrote:

"Lets get to the bottom of this.



The Art Institute of Ft Lauderdale never awarded Art Barker any degree that I know of, honorary or otherwise.



This institution  has had a PHYSICAL LOCATION since 1968 but only offered "diploma" courses in Commercial Art, Interior Design, and Fashion Illustration in its early years.



The "Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale" wasn't  even awarded a license as a vocational school until 1975, YEARS after Art's supposed "DOCTORATE" and long after the mysterious "art institute" shut its doors.





The Art institute of Florida wasn't even accredited to offer a TWO YEAR program until 1979. some 7 years after the infamous "doctorate" degree was obtained by one Art barker..



The Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale BOUGHT the name and files of the DEFUNCT "Art Institute", reportedly shut down by the state of florida for being a diploma mill in 1973, and likely just to obtain the name because after all, they were at the time primarily an  ART SCHOOL. This was 6 YEARS BEFORE THEY WERE ACCREDITED TO EVEN OFFER A TWO YEAR DEGREE never mind a "Doctorate".



It wasn't until 25 YEARS LATER that the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale was accredited to offer a BACHELOR PROGRAM.



The Art institute of Ft Lauderdale is a respected Vocational local institution, an alternative to people that cannot attend a university.  There are similar colleges thruout the US that serve a need and purpose for their communities.  As I write this THEY STILL, 33 YEARS LATER, DO NOT OFFER DOCTORATE DEGREES, HONORARY OR OTHERWISE. THEY NEVER HAVE AND LIKELY NEVER WILL.



They were not even accredited until 2000 in spite of the misleading writing by "anon" above. They now serve as a community type vocational school offering bachelor level degrees for things such as broadcasting, fashion merchandising, interior design  and Culinary arts.



Anyone here care to give some background on the real institution that awarded Art his "doctorate" the defunct "ART INSTITUTE", not affiliated in any means or manner with the "Art institute of Ft Lauderdale" in 1972 when Art was awarded his "doctorate"?  On whose authority were they awarding doctorate degrees?  With what accredidation? In what field is Art's "doctorate"? What were the circumstances surrounding his honorary "doctorate".



 This time when responding, please  try to use the first and most twisted rule .





Just when are you post program seedlings gonna stop making excuses for one another?



"

Still no response?  The first Anon post suggested things that were simply just not true.. and now that I have posted the actual facts above...the defenders of the Doctorate have dried up.

How about an admission that something about the doctorate is a little fishy?

Comn, you can do it! Use that first and most pissed upon rule!!!!



 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: marshall on October 01, 2005, 03:34:00 PM

Napolean, from your post we might conclude that cigarettes lead to acid....acid leads to pot..pot to cocaine...to...

In my own case, I started with sips of liquor and beer as a kid. Mom and dad ocassionally let me have tiny amounts of alcohol from the time I was 8 or 9. Never got drunk but it removed most of the mystique of alcohol from my mind. I think that's one reason it's never held sway to any extent over me. I can have a beer or glass of wine without feeling the need to get drunk. I smoked pot over a year before I ever touched cigarettes...so pot leads to tobacco use too, I suppose.

imo, some of the 'this leads to that' gateway idea comes from the fact that our government and society lumps all 'illegal' drugs together to an extent. If they make cigarettes illegal, you'll likely start finding a much higher correlation between teens trying illegal cigarettes and use of other illegal drugs. If caffeine were made illegal, then you'd have people asserting that drinking coffee leads to cocaine with more people actually using both. As it stands, many people draw a line between legal and illegal drugs as if this were a moral distinction. People drink and smoke that wouldn't consider smoking pot or other drugs because those are illegal.

Interesting too that in countries where marijuana use is legal, the citizens use less than they do in countries where it's illegal.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 07:19:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-09-29 19:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"ask any heroin addict what the first illegal drug used was; pot doesn't cause anyone to stick a needle in their arm, but here's something to put your investigative skills at, how many heroin addicts wouldn't have been heroin addicts without pot

i'll give you a hint not many"

Most heroin addicts also tried cheerios before Heroin. Therefore...How many heroin addicts wouldn't have been heroin addicts without cheerios?


I'll give you a clue...because you haven't one.

 


:wstupid:  :wstupid:  :wstupid:  :wstupid:


Jeeuusus, the Gateway theory in 2005.


Hey anon, tell us a story about the Art institute and their accreditation to award honorific doctorate degrees.  

I love fiction!


 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 01, 2005, 07:31:00 PM

greg i dont think anyone remembers the details. i rember seeing something (1 am not any one of the anons from before) but dont remember the school.
but i also remember it being stated that it was honorary. so its not like its from a diploma factory. it already was just granted for whatever the reason was. it was never stated around me any other way.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 07:38:00 PM

Wrong.

If you are awarded a degree there has to be a reason, even if it is honorary.

The defunct institution allegedly had no authority to award any degree, honorary or otherwise, but instead was accused of SELLING degrees.

So I ask again..someone come up with the actual story surrounding this "doctorate".  The first anon just threw some whitewash on it, and then Thom came along and tried to divert from the question.

It remains.  Again, what were the circumstances surrounding the awarding of the degree, who did it, and under what authority was the degree awarded, and in what field.

These are not trick questions.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 01, 2005, 07:43:00 PM

gerg, i agree there was a reason. i am not saying there is no reason whatsoever. all i am saying was i never heard art or anyone claiming it to be anything other then honorary. i believe it came from a mainstream school and this is just memory hear but i recognized the schools name at the time i saw it.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 07:57:00 PM

Okay, but according to the press, and following the leads from "anon" above, lead right back to a defunct Diploma mill.

An honorary doctorate is a big deal involving speaches, ceremonies, press releases, photos, and a reason. It also involves an actual diploma from an institution authorized to issue doctorates.  

DID ANY OF THIS HAPPEN?  WAS THE DIPLOMA FROM A SOURCE AUTHORIZED TO ISSUE IT?  WAS THERE A CEREMONY?  OR MORE TO THE POINT, IS THIS ALL BULLSHIT AND WAS THE DEGREE JUST MERELY PURCHASED BY OR FOR MR. BARKER?

Again, not trick questions.


I am asking for clarification and reason to not believe the first and most loosely interpreted rule was trampled upon here.


Lets take it a step further and use an actual example of an honorary doctorate, how it is awarded, etc. from an actual facility that awards this type of degree.

http://rules.tamu.edu/urules/100/110799m1.htm (http://rules.tamu.edu/urules/100/110799m1.htm)

Or in general from Wikipedia..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 08:01:00 PM

the above is an outline of legitimate "honorary degrees.

The press accused Art of having a degree more on the lines of something like this.......

http://www.cosmoedu.net/concept.html (http://www.cosmoedu.net/concept.html)


Cosmopolitan University grants an Honorary Doctoral  Degree
to distinguished individuals who apply and qualify by meeting our standards.

Our list of honorary doctors keeps growing. It is in fact the world's most comprehensive list of honorary doctors - a very illustrious club of successful and distinguished members of our society - worldwide. Among them recipients like the German president Johannes Rau and many other high ranking renowned achievers from all walks of life and many countries.


The owner of an Honorary Doctorate is given the legal right to use "Doctor" before his or her name.

It?s time for YOU, to get YOUR Doctor Honoris Causa, YOUR Honorary Doctorate, which carries the same title, "Doctor" that?s used for a regular (earned) degree.

Prestige is guaranteed. Just check into a hotel as "John Doe" and as "Dr. John Doe". The way you?ll be treated is tremendously different! Your life as a Doctor will change dramatically. It?ll get easier, you will receive the amount of respect a Doctor deserves. Well, the advantages are countless. Think about it for a moment.

Michael Jackson has one, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Bob Hope, Robert Redford, Mike Tyson, Bill Clinton , George Bush and so on. Sad enough one has to be either rich or famous or both to attract the offer of a university.
More than one thousand traditional universities award Honorary Doctorates.

But the standards, conditions and fees of their HONORARY DEGREE POLICY are ridiculously high.

What we are doing at Cosmopolitan puts into perspective somewhat, the whole aspect of the real purpose of honorary
degrees. In fact, in our process we actually are recognizing people for their societal accomplishments rather than for the typical recognition of a monetary relationship
or as a publicity stunt.

Cosmopolitan University now grants an Honorary Doctoral degree too.
We feel that lots of distinguished people deserve an honorary degree, not just the rich and famous.

Your Honorary Degree will stem
from a legitimate, renowned and thriving University!
Cosmopolitan University uses this program to raise funds for some of its research projects. (through a reasonable handling fee that applies)


The university maintains a complete and permanent record on each Honorary Doctor and responds promptly to requests for validation when authorized by the recipient.


Your name will also be published on the CU's list of recipients of Honorary Degrees. (optional, it is up to you to be published or you choose NOT to appear on that list)

How to apply


TO APPLY just send us an  email --

and we will email you all the details right away.





Act TODAY. This offer will not last forever, in fact it?s a once in a lifetime opportunity to boost your social status.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 08:02:00 PM

So, I am asking, what is the truth?

Since I have no first hand knowledge, someone clear the good name of Art Barker here.

The press said his doctorate came from a diploma mill.

What is the truth?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 01, 2005, 08:07:00 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 01, 2005, 08:51:00 PM

the honorary degree question was already answered previously, but i guess since it was not satisfyingly enough disparging of Art it was rejected - swat - let's all join in a chorus of "we only want the brand of truth that fits the mold we've already cast" second verse "facts are only facts when we say, disagree with this and we'll tell you so"

maybe this will help, Dr. Jack Taylor, ( a real PHD and Seed parent), was one of the administrators of Fort Lauderdale College at the time, promoted the degree to honor Art for all the work he had done to help the community.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 01, 2005, 09:05:00 PM

Greg, not that my memory on this is all that great, or that it will clear up a whole lot. but i dont remember them really talking to much about any ceremony. i am sure soemthing had to be done to at least present it. but i dont remember anything being said about it.

not a very factual post, but the best i can remember as it pertains to it being discussed at the time.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 01, 2005, 11:37:00 PM

Oops[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-01 20:43 ]

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 01, 2005, 11:42:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-10-01 20:37:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:



On 2005-10-01 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:


"the honorary degree question was already answered previously, but i guess since it was not satisfyingly enough disparging of Art it was rejected - swat - let's all join in a chorus of "we only want the brand of truth that fits the mold we've already cast" second verse "facts are only facts when we say, disagree with this and we'll tell you so"





maybe this will help, Dr. Jack Taylor, ( a real PHD and Seed parent), was one of the administrators of Fort Lauderdale College at the time, promoted the degree to honor Art for all the work he had done to help the community."

Real PhD, eh?  Maybe he would care to give us a history lesson, or at least make one up.



Usually, colleges and universities are rabid about  preserving their histories.  My own Alma Mater sends me dead trees monthly emblazoned with accomplishments of alumni who are now only familiar in their own workforce.  But they are alumni, and the good ol' U. needs to get the word out while they beg for my contribution to the alumni association.



Why is there no history of this Ft. Lauderdale College?

Come to think of it - my mother reports that Helen Petermann had a wall full of diplomas.  There is nothing in Petermann's credentials that back this up.  Wasn't she also a seed parent?  Maybe she knows Dr. Jack Taylor?  

_________________
Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: marshall on October 01, 2005, 11:47:00 PM

It was all just word of mouth hear-say from oldtimers and oldcomers, but I recall being told that Art had studied all the major world religions as well as psychology and that this (in addtion to AA) is where he derived the Seed's methodology / content. I never questioned it at the time.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 02, 2005, 12:29:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-10-01 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"the honorary degree question was already answered previously, but i guess since it was not satisfyingly enough disparging of Art it was rejected - swat -

It was rejected because the answer was bullshit..it insinuated the Art institute Of Ft Lauderdale was accredited when in fact, in 1972 it was not, and the degree apparantly didn't come from there. In addition, The Art institute of Ft Lauderdale has never awarded doctorates of any type.  Yet the post was repleate with dishonest references to accreditation that came later for lesser degrees.


Looking for an honest answer...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 02, 2005, 12:31:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-10-01 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"the honorary degree question was already answered previously, but i guess since it was not satisfyingly enough disparging of Art it was rejected - swat - let's all join in a chorus of "we only want the brand of truth that fits the mold we've already cast" second verse "facts are only facts when we say, disagree with this and we'll tell you so"



maybe this will help, Dr. Jack Taylor, ( a real PHD and Seed parent), was one of the administrators of Fort Lauderdale College at the time, promoted the degree to honor Art for all the work he had done to help the community."

now its "ft lauderdale college" eh?

What happened to the Art Institute? or
the university"?  Or all the other bullshit about accreditations that weren't really in place in 1972 that were brought up for obvious reasons?


Okay, Ft lauderdale college...where were they located? what about the circumstances surrounding the "doctorate"?  Were they accredited?  

Tell us, oh wise anonymous possesor of the truth....

Lets just get a truer version of the truth this time please, without building up accreditations and so forth that don't relate to a doctorate nor that were even associated with the "college" in question.

Ft lauderdale college, eh?

New one on me. Just where were they located? Why doens't "the art institute of Ft Lauderdale" mention them in their history if indeed they were the earlier incarnation of what is now "the art institute of Ft lauderdale".  If they are, on who's authority did they award the "doctorate"? Did they possess a campus?  Did they have any accreditation to issue said "doctorate".

Did Art finish High school?  College?  Junior college?  

Comn, I know you can cough up the truth here...we are waiting...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 02, 2005, 12:44:00 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 02, 2005, 12:47:00 AM

http://studentaid2.ed.gov/gotocollege/s ... y_name.asp (http://studentaid2.ed.gov/gotocollege/search_by_name.asp)

No listing of "Ft Lauderdale College".

Curious.

Now it comes to light that a seed parent got Art the "doctorate".

This gets more interesting all the time!

Who was the accrediting agency for "Ft Lauderdale College" in 1972?  Under what authority were they issuing "doctorates"?  Where were they located?



Keep those trivia tidbits coming!!

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 02, 2005, 12:36:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-10-01 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"the honorary degree question was already answered previously, but i guess since it was not satisfyingly enough disparging of Art it was rejected - swat - let's all join in a chorus of "we only want the brand of truth that fits the mold

Crying wolf here.  You posted a gloss over about accreditation that simply wasn't true.

I am interested in the facts here. If you can demonstrate Art got his honorary Doctorate diploma from a legitimate Accredited college in 1972 that was accredited to issue Doctorate degrees (by a legitimate accrediting authority), I will apologize for even bringing it up.

 Just don't try again what you did the first time...sugar coat the facts and circumstances and throw a curve ball out there to distract from what really occured.

Please this time  use the first and most impotent rule...post the college and link us to some facts about said college. "Ft Lauderdale College" isn't even mentioned anywhere on the web that I can find, nor is it listed on the US Dept of Education website, nor does The Art Institute of Ft Lauderdale, who isn't now or have ever been accredited to issue doctorate degrees, listing them as a former incarnate.

So, clear this up once and for all and my apology will follow. Fair enough?

Go ahead...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 02, 2005, 01:07:00 PM

greg,answering (sorta) your earlier question. i dont think art completed college or a junior college. not formally at any rate, but i dont think he attended one. i never heard him talk about going thru one in the least. so its not hard definitive fact, but i think its accurate.  sorry i cannot be more specific, i am just going based on memories from a long time ago.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 02, 2005, 01:17:00 PM

Thanks anon # 24.    :grin:

But serious, that isn't the issue here, it is common knowledge Art had little or no formal education.

There was a specific allegation/statement in the press many years ago that Art obtained his degree from a diploma mill.  I regurgitated that and then along comes Anon # 19 ( :grin: ) to wax over "the art institute of Ft Lauderdale"  and their credentials. Notable is that in 1972 they were not accredited to award any type of degree at all.

Funny thing,  they have never awarded doctorates, honorary or otherwise, and certainly not in the field Art has his honorary doctorate in.

Further, THEY AREN"T EVEN THE PLACE that awarded Art his "doctorate", According to our anon poster who so professionally posted that in a manner meant to stop all questioning of the facts.

So I am just asking for someone to step forward with the real facts because admittedly I do not have them.  

It is revelant that someone who would lock little
children up and make them recite "honesty is the first and most important rule"  and based his entire life on that supposed premise MAY have accepted an honorary doctorate from a facility not accredited to issue doctorates...is it not?


Or maybe it really is a doctorate from the proper channels, from a proper university/college that was accreddited to award such a degree and that actually had a doctorate program.  Maybe he did qualify for a doctorate using the following or similar criteria...  

http://oregonstate.edu/facultystaff/han ... doctor.htm (http://oregonstate.edu/facultystaff/handbook/uniawa/doctor.htm)


Or maybe it was more along the lines of this....

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/dm1.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/dm1.html)

Lets here the truth!  Vive la verdad!


WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED?  This time, with some integrity please....

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 02, 2005, 01:34:00 PM

Quote

Lets here the truth!  Vive la verdad!





WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED?  This time, with some integrity please....



"

Greg, what's happened is that someone was hoping this would never be questioned, and never banked on the wealth of information - that is now at our fingertips - back in the 70s.  

Seems that Barker, as well his supporters had to "Gild the Lily" back then to make the program attractive, and no one ever questioned it then.  What does Barker have to lose now?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Troll Control on October 02, 2005, 01:35:00 PM

What's the difference?  Honorary degrees are as worthless as unaccredited ones.

Bill Cosby is an honorary "doctor."  All he seems to know how to do is drug and sexually assault women.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 02, 2005, 03:18:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-10-02 10:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What's the difference?  Honorary degrees are as worthless as unaccredited ones.



Bill Cosby is an honorary "doctor."  All he seems to know how to do is drug and sexually assault women."

Well if that is a fact, and not just tabloid bullshit, It's not like he's dragging these women in by flashing his sheepskin. Now flashing the foreskin is another story!  :rofl:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 02, 2005, 07:14:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-10-02 10:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What's the difference?  Honorary degrees are as worthless as unaccredited ones.



Bill Cosby is an honorary "doctor."  All he seems to know how to do is drug and sexually assault women."

There is a difference.

An honorary degree awarded by an accredited institution is usually a ceremony with much pomp and circumstance, and with the exception of the occasional celebrity alumni, done for people that have demonstrated something worthwhile for humanity in a way that has caught the attention of the university.

An honorary degree from a diploma mill is usually purchased by someone and used to dishonestly bolster someone's status.

Two very different animals here....

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 02, 2005, 10:22:00 PM

bayview drive just north of sunrise blvd. now; broward blvd. just east of u.s. 1 then, but keep it up, if you can't find it, it must not exist, right?
has anyone on this sight ever heard of the telephone book or directory assistance?
maybe if you'd paid attention at the seed the concept of using the simplest route may have occurred to you.
jesus christ, this site is like dealing with little children, can any of you actually do anything for yourselves?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: marshall on October 02, 2005, 10:53:00 PM

So, is this the one we're talking about?

http://stage.findtuition.com/college.ph ... it&lr=tuit (http://stage.findtuition.com/college.php?View=Basic&coid=2518&siteid=tuit&lr=tuit)

http://www.fmu.edu/ (http://www.fmu.edu/)

BTW anon, YOU are part of "this site" too. It's like saying; YOU stupid americans! Given the wide range of opinions & points of view expressed here, I'm dumbfounded how so many are able to lump every poster together as 'this site', etc.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 03, 2005, 06:32:00 AM

that link leads us here...


http://www.fmu.edu (http://www.fmu.edu)

Your gonna insult people that can't find Ft Lauderdale College by providing the directions to Florida Metropolitan University?

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Incredible.



Now its Florida Metropolitan University?


Unreal!   The facility keeps changing!

Notable is that Florida Metropolitan University (which I do not believe is the institution that Art obtained his Doctorate from)

DOES NOT OFFER DOCTORATE DEGREES!


Still waiting.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 03, 2005, 06:53:00 AM

Quote

maybe if you'd paid attention at the seed the concept of using the simplest route may have occurred to you.

Really?


Which rule was that?  Or maybe it was a step?  A sign?

Think think think, easy does it, and always use the simplest route.

May have well been, whatwith the inane bullshit you guys were force-feeding to kids being held captive against their will.



 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 03, 2005, 07:19:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-10-02 19:22:00, Anonymous wrote:



has anyone on this sight ever heard of the telephone book or directory assistance?

maybe if you'd paid attention at the seed the concept of using the simplest route may have occurred to you.

jesus christ, this site is like dealing with little children, can any of you actually do anything for yourselves? "

Hey, nice come down on ya staffer!

give yourself a pat on the back.  Art would be so proud of  the way you have progressed your social skills and all.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 03, 2005, 07:29:00 AM

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Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 03, 2005, 12:06:00 PM

I was there when he received the Honary Doctorate
from I thought it was Ft. Lauderdale University but it may have been Ft. Lauderdale College.  He was in a cap & gown.  I don't know if this school eventually became the Art Institute or not(no pun intended)

I already told you this once before.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 03, 2005, 02:15:00 PM

Hey now were getting somewhere.  He wore a cap and gown to the ceremony?

Tell me more!!!

For those observing, this is a different anon than just posted the nice little tirade above.


Ft Lauderdale university?  Another new one on me...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 03, 2005, 02:24:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-10-03 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I was there when he received the Honary Doctorate

from I thought it was Ft. Lauderdale University but it may have been Ft. Lauderdale College.  He was in a cap & gown.  I don't know if this school eventually became the Art Institute or not(no pun intended)



I already told you this once before."

Would it be significant to you if the institution that presented the honorary doctorate wasn't accredited to issue doctorate degrees?

Also, how did we get off on all this "art institute" crap if he never was there?

What happened to "ft lauderdale College/university?  There seems to be no record that this institution ever existed.

Just asking...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 03, 2005, 02:34:00 PM

Don't know.  I was there on broward blvd.  I remember about 6mos or a year before he received the doc. 5 guys from the Univ or college were on the program.  Art & about 5 other people received them if my memory serves me write(on the 5 that is)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 03, 2005, 11:25:00 PM

still waiting???
for what?
last time children, Ft.Lauderdale College exists today and did then at above location(s).
jesus h christ i even tell you where it is and how to find it and you come up with Florida Metropolitan???
yet you're puzzled by the tone of my response and insults???
when someone calls you morons, it's not an insult when you're morons, only when you think you're not

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 04, 2005, 09:01:00 AM

No one is puzzled by your seed staffer attitude at all...we just find it funny that you still fantasize that is an effective form of communication.

 :lol:  :lol:

Newflash for you.  That controntational in your face, attack the messenger, insult and degrade people you don't agree with - style of communication was anti-social and inappropriate then as well as now. It only works in the confines of a closed system where the people have been conditioned to believe that it is normal and productive when in fact it is not.

Now that we have that out of the way, If you have knowledge about Ft. lauderdale college, why don't you post it in a credible non-confrontational manner?  

Is that beyond your capabilities?  Why isn't it listed with the Florida Dept of Education? The US Dept of Education? Is this the facility that awarded the doctorate? Were they accredited to issue said diploma in in 1972?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 04, 2005, 09:15:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-10-03 20:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"still waiting???

for what?

last time children, Ft.Lauderdale College exists today and did then at above location(s).

jesus h christ i even tell you where it is and how to find it and you come up with Florida Metropolitan???

yet you're puzzled by the tone of my response and insults???

Again, no...but I did contact Florida Metropolitan University and found out they took over Ft. Lauderdale College in 1996.

 :grin:  :grin:

Your apology is not expected.  I forgive you...again.

 :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 04, 2005, 09:23:00 AM

So in my little journey for the truth, and wading thru the crap that has been thrown at the attempt...so far we have very little.

It appears that PERHAPS the "doctorate" was awarded by the now defunct Ft Lauderdale College which was acquired in 1996 by CCI Corp which operates Florida Metropolitan University,  a small local college 22 office corporation, accredited to offer up to master degrees. This corporation was founded in 1995.

We know little to nothing about Ft. Lauderdale College, its accredidation in 1972 and/or if this was really the place that gave Art his honorary doctorate or not.

Would someone who was there, that isn't socially retarded, please step forward with some bonafide facts?  Or at the least, like our one anon has honestly tried to do, with a admitted  not perfect 33 year old memory?  

It is an interesting point of topic the circumstance surrounding this honorary doctorate and the facility that chose to award it to him.  

It would be nice to either confirm or put to rest the press account of his doctorate so long ago...Ie:  was the honorary doctorate really from a diploma mill or was it from a facility that was accredited to offer doctorate degrees.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 04, 2005, 09:40:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-10-03 20:25:00, Anonymous wrote:




last time children, Ft.Lauderdale College exists today ...

jesus h christ i even tell you where it is and how to find it and you come up with Florida Metropolitan???
yet you're puzzled by the tone of my response and insults???
when someone calls you morons, it's not an insult when you're morons, only when you think you're not...

Er, no it does not exist anymore...but I don't want to confuse you with facts or upset you further..it is so apparent you are raging over there on the other side of your computer.

Man, it must be tough for you, coming here and facing all these beligerent ex-seedlings that actually verify the things you say, eh? Even when you belittle and call names, we still verify what you say.  How depressing that must be for an ex-staffer of your caliber! I bet you wish you could stand us up or put us on a refresher, eh?

 :grin:  :grin:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 04, 2005, 09:50:00 AM

Quote

yet you're puzzled by the tone of my response and insults???
"

And in all seriousness, here is where we find the biggest flaw in the way the Seed and the Seed knock of programs taught people to socialize with others.

When you are making a point, according to seed doctrine and culture, yelling, belittling, humiliating and any other tactic  to win the argument is deemed okay, even preferred to actual give and take. No voice is ever given to alternate viewpoints, and if someone is deemed wrong or on the wrong side of the argument, well then they Deserve whatever you say to them, dammit!  After all, it is for their own good the way you are treating them, right?

No wonder then that so many years later, a person who built his life around this fantasy of reality, this lie of an approach to communication, this warped sense of community, would still be unable to carry on any two way conversation.

So sad for you sir.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 04, 2005, 01:44:00 PM

Boy, arn't you getting a little carried here.
You are kinda talking to yourself. Right? :rofl:

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 04, 2005, 04:58:00 PM

nope

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 05, 2005, 07:21:00 AM

greg, it does seem to exsist today (ft lauderdale college). if i read the webpage correctly its a part of FMU. i googled it but had to go several pages into the search to pull references to it

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:sQ ... lege&hl=en (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:sQQ633Hb1I8J:encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761591844/Florida_Metropolitan_University%E2%80%94Fort_Lauderdale_College.html+fort+lauderdale+college&hl=en)

not sure if that link will work or not.

http://www.rgs.uci.edu/rig/school_codes/florida.htm (http://www.rgs.uci.edu/rig/school_codes/florida.htm)

and that link will show an assigned school code for none other then fort lauderdale college. not sure if its really apart of fmu or not, or really still functioning or not, but this certainly makes me think its still out there

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 05, 2005, 07:23:00 AM

do we actually know it was a doctorate and not just an honorary BA ? or MA for that matter?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 05, 2005, 07:24:00 AM

We know very little actual facts..only that the press said it was from a diploma mill.  This could or could not be factual.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 05, 2005, 07:27:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-10-05 04:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

"greg, it does seem to exsist today (ft lauderdale college). if i read the webpage correctly its a part of FMU. i googled it but had to go several pages into the search to pull references to it



http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:sQ ... lege&hl=en (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:sQQ633Hb1I8J:encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761591844/Florida_Metropolitan_University%E2%80%94Fort_Lauderdale_College.html+fort+lauderdale+college&hl=en)



not sure if that link will work or not.



http://www.rgs.uci.edu/rig/school_codes/florida.htm (http://www.rgs.uci.edu/rig/school_codes/florida.htm)



and that link will show an assigned school code for none other then fort lauderdale college. not sure if its really apart of fmu or not, or really still functioning or not, but this certainly makes me think its still out there"

No, I really checked. Ft Lauderdale college was assumed by Florida Metropolitan University. Look at your first link...

I think the first anon did what you did, saw a link but then he laughably tried to use it as a weapon of diversion and humiliation without checkng it out.  For instance, Ft. Lauderdale College has a dead phone number and a dead link, and no listing with the state, but FMU does. FMU has taken over Ft Lauderdale college  almost 10 years ago.

Those links aren't accurate I am afraid.


The questions remain however...

was Ft Lauderdale College the place that awarded Art his honorary doctorate? It seems one anon poster seems to think so, in spite of the "art institute" nonsense which apparently was not or never  affiliated with Ft. Lauderdale College.

What were the circumstances surrounding it?  (supposedly a seed parent arranged it according to one anon post).

If it was Ft lauderdale college, were they accredited to award Doctorate degrees? Accredited to award Any degrees at all in 1972?

If there was a ceremony, who attended? was anyone here there?

If it was, was  Ft lauderdale college a diploma mill in 1972 or an accredited institution?

If it wasn't Ft Lauderdale college, who was it?

Does anyone have the correct answers?


Still waiting...

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 05, 2005, 10:59:00 AM

The name was Fort Lauderdale University. I am sure that is the exact name that read on the diploma hanging in his office. The honorary doctorate degree I beleive was in "social sciences" or "human sciences."

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: GregFL on October 05, 2005, 11:25:00 AM

See how this gets convoluted?

Maybe it was  "Ft. Lauderdale University", an entirely seperate entity than all these others being bantered around.

there is no record of a "Ft Lauderdale University" Anywhere that I can find. That doesn't mean there wasn't an entity issuing diplomas with that name...

Do you know anything else about this?

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 05, 2005, 12:01:00 PM

It should have at least been licensed with the state of Florida to have its doors open for business. Whether or not it was accredited at the time is another story since it has to be regionally accredited by Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (or SACS) for it to be considered an accredited U.S. school. Respected accreditation can be a relative term, however, since some people knowingly pay for a degree and feel they have the right to its title, especially if said person does in fact already possess the knowledge to practice that someone else with an accredited degree possesses. Of course, there are several fields that would not accept an unaccredited degree for hiring purposes. To conclude, the fact that the school is licensed to award degrees is not synonymous to regional accreditation.

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Anonymous on October 05, 2005, 12:15:00 PM

You can search SACS accreditation here:

http://www.sacscoc.org/meminfo.asp (http://www.sacscoc.org/meminfo.asp)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: landyh on November 29, 2005, 02:06:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-09-22 15:47:00, Antigen wrote:

"Well how come the Seed, Straight and the other spin offs are the only ones to do this? Why don't they do strip searches in hospital settings? Surely they have the same desire to keep drugs away from their patients, don't they?



So... one time out of how many thousands of kids humiliated? And you sincerely think that's justified?



That's the problem here, I think. You guys are just obsessed w/ drugs the way the puritans were obsessed w/ witchcraft. Very like that, in fact.

 

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
--John Adams, U.S. President

"

Ginger,
One time? As i wrote elsewhere I was strip searched on my second time at the Seed. It took five guys to do it. I was 12 years old and if anyone got hurt physically it was the guys doing the search. I had a bag of weed in my underwear. John is on the money that this started because people did try to bring stuff in.  As to not being strip searched in county jails that is simply not true. I know this for a fact from personal experience. My sister and I talked this weekend  about our experience at the seed and we were in complete agreement that niether one of us ever saw anyone purposely hurt physically or even accidentally. Again being strip searched was somewhat traumatic  but I made it the difficult situation it was. Given the way I fought they would have had to go out of there way to keep from hurting me. I was hanging from the toilet partitions trying my best to kick the shit of them. Yet they did no more than restrain me. On the subject of JaLong I thing it is horrible that you had to endure facing your abuser as you did. But is there some implication that this was somehow the kind of thing the seed did to help with there conditioning efforts. I would imagine that you and your abuser were the only people who knew what happened. Please JaLong my intent is not at all to minimize your trauma as I had my own I understand the deep wounds that accompany it. But does anybody wonder where this rapist made the changes in his life that made him repentent? Is there nothing positive in that? I have to keep repeating apparently that those of you that see the seed in a totally negative light are just as blindly deluded as those who see it as a panacea. Can't we acknowlege that it was a little of both and call it a day.   [ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-28 23:10 ]

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: JaLong on November 29, 2005, 09:20:00 AM

Landyh,
Thanks for the comments. It was very many years when the guy truely apologized. I had called him and told him how he had f'd up my life. He cried, I cried, and I forgave him. Yes, I'm sure we were the only ones there, except for his sister who was also on staff knew. I have some fond memories of the seed. Especially the friends I made there and still have. I have been re-united with more form this site. The way I look at it, I took what I needed from the seed to continue on with my life, and let the rest go. Yes, I needed counseling, and still do. Yet so is life. I really enjoyed going over to the GUY'S house down near Bayfront Hosp.
I feel we all go through trials in our lives, and as long as we learn something from them- that is all that matters.
Take care,
Julie

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: cajun75 on November 29, 2005, 11:35:00 AM

Landyh,

I want to thank you for bringing your thoughts and memories of the seed to this forum. I think I truly put the whole experience behind me once I left. I did not think about it much, yet I don't know if I intentionally just blocked out the whole experience and that was just the mechanism I used to deal with it or not. I brought this up to me Dad and he said the seed tought me to take responsibility for my life. I tend to disagree with him as how can a child take responsibilty for his own life without being tought kindness, unselfish love, and character from the ones who love them. I think I just coped with the situation, went through the motions, and was glad to just leave. I still think my father had some responsibilty for my actions as I was just reaching out for attention. For my situation, you do not leave children at home, leave town for a week at a time, and excpect 14 and 15 year olds to take responsibilty for themselves. I am speaking for myself and my brother. I would never dream of doing that to my children. I think as I grew older, I did take responsibilty for my life but responsibilty begins at home at an early age from nurturing parents. I never got that as a child. I think the experience has tought me to be a kind and caring person, but it took me a long time to realize this as I struggled to know myself. I was bitter after leaving the seed and was just determined to make it on my own. It has been only in the last few years that I have reconciled the differences and ill feelings I have had regarding my parents. It took self realization and learning to know myself and a strong belief in God. I can say that I was not mistreated while I was at the seed. I went into the Seed in February 1975 and I was not strip searched and I don't know when they started this. My brother who was also there says the seed saved his life. I think everyones prespective and circumstances are different as I do not feel as though the seed saved my life.

Kind Regards,

Chuck

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: Antigen on November 29, 2005, 12:42:00 PM

Again, Landy, I know their intentions were and are good. But, like all zealots and insular groups, they often do a lot of harm believing that their cause justifies a bit of trauma.

I know it started out as a voluntary thing. That alone probably made a world of difference. People went there and submitted to whatever requirements Art and Hap and Mave laid down or they voluntarily did not.

But people get carried away. People especially get carried away in an environment where no natural dissent is tolerated. Predictably enough, it got worse and worse to the point where, in Straight, they were talking parents into committing little kids preemptively; because they were making friends who made the parents nervous or because they snuck a beer once from Dad's cooler. Those kids were strip searched and coerced into confessing a drug habit or a druggie attitude that would eventually lead to a habit that would eventually lead to a heroin addiction and undignified death on skidrow.

Now think about the total environment in the Seed on your second time around. If they hadn't strip searched you, then what? You might have pulled out a bag of sticky sometime later. Then what? Do you think the whole group would have been brought down by the sight of it? Or is it more likely that whoever was around would have snatched it outa your hand and reported you for it? The strip search wasn't at all necessary to protect the group from drugs. However, it's known to be a very effective means of disorienting and dominating a person.

Then we come to find out that the gateway theory was entirely bogus anyway. Pot, the one drug they could almost count on almost all teenagers to have tried, is just not that dangerous.

Like I said, they lied a LOT. Not so much to others as to themselves.

A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.


--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: landyh on November 29, 2005, 05:45:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-11-29 06:20:00, JaLong wrote:

"Landyh,

Thanks for the comments. It was very many years when the guy truely apologized. I had called him and told him how he had f'd up my life. He cried, I cried, and I forgave him. Yes, I'm sure we were the only ones there, except for his sister who was also on staff knew. I have some fond memories of the seed. Especially the friends I made there and still have. I have been re-united with more form this site. The way I look at it, I took what I needed from the seed to continue on with my life, and let the rest go. Yes, I needed counseling, and still do. Yet so is life. I really enjoyed going over to the GUY'S house down near Bayfront Hosp.

I feel we all go through trials in our lives, and as long as we learn something from them- that is all that matters.

Take care,

Julie"

Thank you also for your comments here. I have to say too that I did read in your posts that his apology while at the seed seemed to you to be insincere. Sounds like maybe he had reached the point of being ashamed which isn't quite the same as being sorry. It is hard for me to think of abusers as positive in anyway but I suppose if there still out there I would rather mine to have found there own healing. At the very least that they don't continue the same patterns of abuse to this day. I am so glad that you were able to confront at least one of your abusers though it is tough for me to sympathize with the fate of the other 4 guys.
Sounds like you found some healing there. I'm working on it. Cheers!

Title: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
Post by: ChrisL on December 01, 2005, 06:04:00 PM

The healing is in both sides; asking for and the act of forgiving...I recently reached out to someone by writing them a letter, asking for their forgiveness, even if I never hear from them, and I told them in my letter it was not neccesary, I still felt better, somehow in someway by giving up that old grudge, defense, resentment, whatever you want to call it, I felt better inside (& not just a relief of guilt, because I really had nothing to feel guilty about) I felt that by asking for forgiveness I had also forgiven them...after 25 years...