Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 07:57:23 PM
working to change programs for the better is fine. but suggesting that all drug treatment and alcoholics anonymous is evil is just absurd. only people who have been addicts understand.
when you let yourself die before asking for help. there has to be a way to help these people. yes even if they are teens since they can find drugs just as easily and get addicted like adults too.
i am anti-abusive-program, but i don't believe you need to throw the baby out with the bath water. i pray you never experience life threatening drug or alcohol addiction in your life.
even those in treatment or program unnecessarily can aknolwedge there were some there who needed help. look at it from the big picture. the world is not all about you and your experience, however bad it was.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on November 04, 2007, 08:00:40 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 04, 2007, 08:10:55 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
and so they die. this is the reason why the loved one's can put them in treatment. if you want to see what its like for people without loved ones go check your local skid row.
working to change programs for the better is fine. but suggesting that all drug treatment and alcoholics anonymous is evil is just absurd. only people who have been addicts understand.
when you let yourself die before asking for help. there has to be a way to help these people. yes even if they are teens since they can find drugs just as easily and get addicted like adults too.
i am anti-abusive-program, but i don't believe you need to throw the baby out with the bath water. i pray you never experience life threatening drug or alcohol addiction in your life.
even those in treatment or program unnecessarily can aknolwedge there were some there who needed help. look at it from the big picture. the world is not all about you and your experience, however bad it was.
amen, people are you listening?
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 08:16:17 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 04, 2007, 08:23:13 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
when you let yourself die before asking for help? what? there is help if someone chooses to get it. if they dont want help and want to die let them! they should be free to make that choice. just dont hurt anyone else on your way out!
agreed, but parents care about thier kids and will do anything to avoid them taking their own life. That is what makes many of these schools so attractive is that there are virtually no suicides. So as a minimum the parents know their kids will be kept safe for a short time while they figure things out.
Good point.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 08:27:27 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
just dont hurt anyone else on your way out!
Translation: Let the loser die if they can't control their addiction. I've never been addicted to drugs, but since I was sent to a wilderness program I feel I have the right to judge everyone else.
Welcome to fornits. This is the type of mean-spirited statement that underpins the ideology of many fornits posters. They want to let people addicted to drugs die and feel no responsibility to help them. I don't know how they sleep at night.
Post by: Nihilanthic on November 04, 2007, 08:36:25 PM
Not everyone who uses drugs is abusing it, needs treatment, or is in any way in danger.
I go weeks without having a beer but I'm the son of an "alcoholic" and everyone is fucking certain alcoholism is genetic. :roll:
And considering how many people use Marijuana without any ill effects... well, yeah.
Fornits isn't against people who need help getting it. We're against calling torture help and forcing it on those who don't, or those who need it - so that those who need it can get real help.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 08:40:23 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
NI'm the son of an "alcoholic"
Stop trying to paint yourself as a victim, Niles, it's unbecoming of a man. Drug treatment is not torture. If you'd been to drug treatment, or ever been tortured for real, you would know that.
Run along boy, and go post your porn or whatever it is you do, adults are trying to have a discussion here.
Post by: TheWho on November 04, 2007, 08:41:54 PM
Quote
Not everyone who uses drugs is abusing it, needs treatment, or is in any way in danger.
No one said we were talking about everyone, just thoses that need help, not everyone is in a program seeking help. Why do you continue to evade and cop out on conversations. Why be black and white? Some kids need help and others do not.
Post by: Nihilanthic on November 04, 2007, 08:42:34 PM
(http://http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/P/5/ashcroft_porn.jpg)
But I'm talking a bout ethical treatment of problems vs "Straight INC" treatment of drug suspicion. There is a huge difference.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 08:48:31 PM
Let me guess, your intake just get raped by the GAO news and you want to vent at the people stealing your precious cashflow?
Line's at the end of the block.
Post by: TheWho on November 04, 2007, 08:53:29 PM
Although he is known to just skip right to the gorilla and porn.
I think we should back off and not challenge his intellect.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 09:18:45 PM
How many would that be, in total?
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
These places have a high suicide rate, a high attempted suicide rate, and a sky-high post suicide rate, when the mental damaged torture victim takes their own life BECASUE of what's been done to them, and the destruction that abuse has created in their lives, and mental processes. My guess is that as many as a third kids coming out of these places commit suicide.
How many would that be, in total?
Your guess is wrong.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 09:28:17 PM
What makes you think my guess is wrong? Is it those peer reviewed, clinical obs, your child murdering industry, after 40 years, has still never gotten around to making that validate yourself?
The ONLY studies made on your monster industry have proven that you either cause damage, or have no benefit on the children you abduct and torture.
You do benefit your wallets, though
Post by: TheWho on November 04, 2007, 09:32:16 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
These places have a high suicide rate, a high attempted suicide rate, and a sky-high post suicide rate, when the mental damaged torture victim takes their own life BECASUE of what's been done to them, and the destruction that abuse has created in their lives, and mental processes. My guess is that as many as a third kids coming out of these places commit suicide.
How many would that be, in total?
Do you have any data for that?
The suicide rate for kids in programs is extremely low, maybe one event every five years.
I saw some data posted that showed 1,000 to 2,000 kids were killing them selves everyyear outside of programs.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 09:35:08 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
one third of the kids I kept in touch with killed themesleves. I talk to other survivors, and a hell of alot of them end up dead prematurely..about one third, by either direct suicide, or suicidal-style living.
Now you are just lying.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 09:38:12 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 04, 2007, 09:44:29 PM
Quote
suicidal-style living
Wow, dont let regulars hear you talking like that. This sounds like a life style that may need intervention or treatment of some sort. If a parent said that they would be ripped apart.
What you need to say is they are free to die anyway they like as long as it is their choice. Kids should not be forced to live if they choose not to. Parents should not interfer.
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 09:53:51 PM
the reason you dont see alot of alchoholics in countries where alchohol has been around for longer (e.g mediterannean, vs. ireland or new world), is because the true alchoholics drank their way out of the gene pool hundreds of years ago. the ones who didnt adapted and are either able to remain functional while drunk or dont have a compulsion to drink.
bassically, if they cant help themselves dont help them, because then youre going to have to help all of their offspring later on when they get sober and have kids.
as far as the alchoholics/junkies who already have kids, well, if you're functional enough to support them and be responsible at the same it's all good as long as you teach them to drink/use responsibly also. if you dont, they'll have to learn the hard way. if you're so fucked up you're kids have to change your daipers, you shouldnt have had kids in the first place.
there is a reason alchoholic babies (FAS) turn out retarted and sterile. it's a natural mechanism to prevent the passage of alchoholic genes.
Post by: psy on November 04, 2007, 10:18:19 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
and so they die. this is the reason why the loved one's can put them in treatment. if you want to see what its like for people without loved ones go check your local skid row.
working to change programs for the better is fine. but suggesting that all drug treatment and alcoholics anonymous is evil is just absurd. only people who have been addicts understand.
when you let yourself die before asking for help. there has to be a way to help these people. yes even if they are teens since they can find drugs just as easily and get addicted like adults too.
i am anti-abusive-program, but i don't believe you need to throw the baby out with the bath water. i pray you never experience life threatening drug or alcohol addiction in your life.
even those in treatment or program unnecessarily can aknolwedge there were some there who needed help. look at it from the big picture. the world is not all about you and your experience, however bad it was.
Read and learn:
http://archive.salon.com/health/books/2 ... index.html (http://archive.salon.com/health/books/2000/01/10/addiction/index.html)
s being hooked a choice?
A new book argues that all addictions are a matter of free will, even heroin and coffee.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Andy Dehnart
Jan. 10, 2000 | By simply titling his new book "Addiction is a Choice," Jeffrey Schaler guarantees controversy.
In a society that's addicted to identifying addictions, some -- "Internet addiction," for instance -- are obvious targets for valid criticism. But identifying drug addiction as a choice? It seems ridiculous, even blasphemous; isn't it scientific fact that drug addiction is an involuntary medical disease? According to the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, it is: "Chronic, hardcore drug use is a disease, and anyone suffering from a disease needs treatment."
Not according to Schaler. A psychologist and professor of justice, law and society at American University, he argues that drug addiction is not a disease. Instead, he says it's a scapegoated behavior that has been incorrectly identified as a physical or mental illness, a victim of bad science and misguided policy. Schaler writes that -- like homosexuality, masturbation and other behaviors once thought to be physical or mental illnesses -- the idea that drug addiction is an uncontrollable affliction can and should be "swiftly discredited."
Addiction is a Choice
By Jeffrey Schaler, Ph.D.
Open Court Publishing, 256 pages
Nonfiction
Buy this book at B&N.com
Schaler admits that these aren't new ideas, but he's arguably the first to put them into an easily accessible form. The book reads like a combination of an academic journal article and a commentary from a local newspaper. While he's certain to have his critics, Schaler presents a coherent rebuttal to an argument many people accept without a second thought.
If addiction is a choice, what is it not?
It is not a disease. And it is not involuntary. And it is not a thing that causes people to engage in certain behaviors. The conventional wisdom is that the availability of drugs causes people to use them. That's one of the big arguments that is used to support what I call "the war on people," "the war on drugs." And the conventional wisdom is also that if you use "addicting drugs," you will not be able to moderate your use of those drugs [or] stop using those drugs.
The conventional wisdom is that there is some power in the drug that makes people keep using the drug. Another part of that argument is that once you use the drug, something changes in your body. And that change -- which has never been identified, only hypothesized -- causes you to keep using the drug. What I have argued is that people use drugs as a way of avoiding and coping with certain existential experiences. They don't want to do what is necessary to change their experience. I'm not saying that's not difficult -- it can be very difficult. For example, Native Americans -- who are the victims of literal and metaphorical genocide -- have major problems they have to contend with; I'm not saying that those are small by any means. But instead of doing what they need to do to change their experience, they may tend to rely on drugs as a way of making themselves feel better so they don't have to cope with those problems.
Back to the power you mentioned earlier -- the power that people say drugs have over bodies. Don't drugs have significant physiological effects on people?
Yes, and this is a point that serves as a red herring for people who maintain that drugs are dangerous. There are two ways of looking at this. We can say, "Do drugs have a certain effect on the body?" Of course they do, and the people on my side who go against the grain [admit that]. However, drug use and addiction doesn't have to do with what drugs do to the body, but how drugs get into the body.
If you take a drug like cocaine, obviously something changes in your body. Every time you think any thought, your body changes. There's always a physiological change associated with whatever you do. Now the question is, "Does that physiological change make you do what you're doing, or do you choose to do that?" If you have epilepsy, and you have a seizure, of course there's a physical change in your body that makes you go into convulsions. I'm not saying that you have a choice as to whether you convulse or not -- that's clearly not a volitional act. But whether you're going to reach for another cigarette or not is a volitional act; it's not the same thing as an epileptic seizure.
But if you take heroin -- and even if that's a conscious choice at the beginning -- once you get "addicted" to it, there's a point at which you might die from the effects if you go off of it; you could have a seizure and die. Does that not prove that the drug actually has a sort of control over your body?
No, but you're right -- there are situations in which you may need to be medically detoxified. And by that same reasoning, we could say that "crack babies" aren't really born addicted in the way we talk about addiction, but they've been poisoned. The mother has been taking the drug, and it's obviously caused something physiological in the infant, and that infant may need some care to antidote the toxic effects of that drug. The same thing with heroin, the same thing with alcohol.
There's lots of evidence that shows that people who have been "addicted" to heroin for a long time give up heroin once their environments change. That's one point, which I show in the [book with the] Vietnam veterans study that was published in 1973. Aside from those who needed to be detoxed because of the physiological effects -- of course, many of those people who are detoxed go back to drug use -- if you ask anyone who's been a long-time drug user how they stopped, they'll reflect for a moment. And they'll say, "Well, I made a decision; it was time for me to do it."
The act and the behavior of using or consuming a drug -- regardless of what it is -- is a choice, and people engage in those kinds of behaviors for reasons. There isn't some power in the drug or in their physiology that causes them to do it. Because by that reasoning, if people committed crimes while they were on drugs, then we'd have to exculpate them; we'd have to say they weren't responsible for their behavior because they were under the influence of drugs, and that isn't the way the law works.
Guest. Where are you getting your information on addiction?
Why do you think our society is so obsessed with identifying everything from Internet use to gambling to, like you say, drugs, as addictive?
This isn't my original idea, but I think that people have always had an investment in scapegoating some group or thing as a way of easing their existential anxiety and as a way of boosting their self-esteem. So to persecute people for using illegal drugs is like persecuting any minority -- blacks, Jews or gays -- because they've been blamed for the problems that the majority experiences. People have always done it; they'll always do it.
What's different is that, in the past, people had a clearer sense that they were scapegoating blacks, or scapegoating Jews, or scapegoating homosexuals for their problems. But today, under this charade of science and medicine, we're "not" scapegoating drug users and addictions for our problems -- we're instilling public health.
Addiction is a Choice
Who's to blame for that? Is it doctors or politicians or addicts themselves?
I don't think it's the addicts. I think that it's human nature to try to find some blame as a way of easing anxiety. If people don't look to religion, then they look to persecute a minority or a substance.
Who benefits from persecuting people for being addicts or who benefits from persecuting illegal drug users? I think it's clear: The drug enforcement agents benefit because they earn a living doing that. Politicians benefit because they look like they're getting rid of or getting a control on evil in our society. But I think there's a subtle group that people don't really want to pay attention to -- those who build prisons to house lots of people for consensual crimes. Of course, the others that have a deep ideological and economic investment in the "disease model" of addiction are the treatment providers because they make money treating a mythical disease.
In the book you take issue with treatment providers, especially AA, which you compare to a cult and/or a religion. Even if it is a cult or a quasi-religion, they still do help some people get off drugs. Is there anything wrong with that?
I think that AA should be free to exist just the way any religious group should be free to exist. My concern is that it has become a tool of the state. The state arrests people for drunk driving and orders them into Alcoholics Anonymous. That to me is a violation of the First Amendment, and the separation of church and state.
I'm all for people who want to go to AA. I think it's great -- they should be able to go to any group just like they should be able to go any church, synagogue or Islamic temple. What I object to is people are being misled that AA has the truth about addiction, which is absolutely false. It would be like saying that Judaism has the truth about addiction or Christianity does or Catholicism does.
What concerns me about what AA teaches is that it goes against scientific research that has focused on the concept known as self-efficacy. That is, if you believe you can do something, you're more likely to try to do it.
What AA and similar disease-model groups say is that you can't control your behavior; you can't control your addiction. I think what we should be doing is teaching people that they can control their addiction. It's a choice. And then they're more likely to prove that to be true. And that idea has really been supported by psychological research; the AA idea has not.
So the best form of treatment then would be to help people realize they're actually making a conscious choice to engage in that behavior?
Yes. One, I think it's supported by scientific research; two, it is a common sense approach. But let me qualify one thing you said: You said, "Is this the best approach to treatment?" Well, yes and no. It's the best approach to helping people who want help with they're addiction or their behavior. However, I think we have to be careful and not call it treatment, because it becomes a euphemism for moral management. It's not the same thing as treating someone for cancer or diabetes or AIDS. There's no moral element there; you don't say to the person, "If you just have the right attitude, then you'll get better."
What about those who are too far gone, those who can't really realize that for themselves or are too overwhelmed by the effects of drugs to make that decision? What about those people?
I don't think they should ever be coerced into anything one might call "treatment." I don't think that's the right way; I think it's unconstitutional; I think people have the right to destroy themselves, as upsetting as that may be. That doesn't mean that private groups -- myself included -- might not try to talk these people into getting some help or talk them out of destroying themselves. But ultimately the choice rests with the individual, and I don't think we are ever justified in a civilized society that values freedom in coercing people into any kind of program, whether it's called treatment or conversation or psychotherapy, against the person's will.
What about the fact that their behavior because of those drugs can affect other people? As the saying goes, there are no fights at ice cream parlors, just at bars.
I think that people should be held responsible for any harm that they do to anyone else, and I don't think that we should excuse them because they're using drugs. One of the problems we get into here is what constitutes harm? It gets kind of fuzzy. If you engage in a behavior that upsets me, is that harm?
You have a right to engage in behaviors of your choice as long as you don't infringe upon my freedom. I think the libertarian dictum that one should be free to do whatever one wants as long as it's not at the expense of someone else is one we should abide by. My right to swing my fist ends precisely at my neighbor's nose; whether I'm using drugs or alcohol is essentially irrelevant. If some family member or friend is self-destructing using drugs, does that cause you harm? It causes you psychological and emotional harm, it's upsetting to you. But is that the same thing as some kind of criminal act? I don't think it is. I think that's part of the price we have to pay in a free society.
Based on your libertarian beliefs, would you be for legalization of drugs?
I don't think they should be legalized -- I think we should repeal, in total, drug prohibition. "Legalize" connotates government regulation, and I think that people have a right to drugs as property as guaranteed by the constitution. I don't think they should have a right to marijuana, for example, because it qualifies as medicine -- certainly, they should be able to use the drugs for any purposes that they want, whether it's medical or recreational.
Finally, are you addicted to anything?
It depends on what we mean by "addicted." The point that I try to drive home in the book is that addictions can be good or bad, positive or negative, and they could be to experiences, or activities, or substances. The answer is yes: I'm addicted to any number of activities and substances, like coffee. But does that mean that I can't control my behavior? No.
salon.com | Jan. 10, 2000
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 10:25:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""These places have a high suicide rate, a high attempted suicide rate, and a sky-high post suicide rate, when the mental damaged torture victim takes their own life BECASUE of what's been done to them, and the destruction that abuse has created in their lives, and mental processes. My guess is that as many as a third kids coming out of these places commit suicide.
How many would that be, in total?
Do you have any data for that?
The suicide rate for kids in programs is extremely low, maybe one event every five years.
I saw some data posted that showed 1,000 to 2,000 kids were killing them selves everyyear outside of programs.
Firstly, child torturer, there’s no official "data", because no "official data"
has EVER been collected on the subject. Further, your industry shills campaign desperately against any "official data" being collected, through regulation.
There is no "official data" of how many kids are in the torture center, to begin with. Youth are disappeared in the night like in banana republics in South America.
However, suicides that are reported on by the media (most aren’t) that are detected by civilians here,(most aren’t) are collected, and the numbers are HIGH considering the “trickle downâ€
Post by: psy on November 04, 2007, 10:35:35 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""just dont hurt anyone else on your way out!
Translation: Let the loser die if they can't control their addiction. I've never been addicted to drugs, but since I was sent to a wilderness program I feel I have the right to judge everyone else.
Welcome to fornits. This is the type of mean-spirited statement that underpins the ideology of many fornits posters. They want to let people addicted to drugs die and feel no responsibility to help them. I don't know how they sleep at night.
Listen fuckhead. It's unethical, not to mention cruel to "treat" people who do not want to be treated. Furthermore, it is VERY unlikely to work. It's human nature to rebel against oppression. "It's for your own damn good" is likely to get your kid to hate you for the rest of your existance on this planet.
It's like this: very basic psychology. Listen up parents. When teenagers grow up, they rebel to break away. This is a natural occorence. The less freedom you give your kid, the more he will rebel. The more open, more honest, less deceptive/snoopy/controlling/helecoptering you are, the more your kid will want to do everything in his/her power to piss you off. Teenagers are designed to do that.
That rebellion may come in a number of forms but if drug use was as dangerous as advertised the sixties would have wiped out a large section of the populus. Regardless of which addiction-fad du-jour you think is going to kill your kid, you can't predict the future and only make the likelyhood that they will end up dead, insane, or in jail greater by drilling that inevitable outcome into their heads.
http://archive.salon.com/health/books/2 ... ndex1.html (http://archive.salon.com/health/books/2000/01/10/addiction/index1.html)
Post by: Anonymous on November 04, 2007, 10:43:15 PM
That doesn’t mean I'm for forced treatment, though.
For most addicts contemplating treatment, it’s "can I afford treatment", that is the concern. This isn't an subject the industry pays attention to, because they aren't interesting in helping, but in making cash
Still, I'd approve of a law stipulating "no forced treatment, unless it can be proved that a person is an addict by witnessing them go into withdrawal after being removed from supply, for a week"
If they don't "withdraw", they are free to go, and sue their family and accusers if no "probable cause" type evidence was collected before they were imprisoned for observation...something along these lines.
Then, young people who don't have a drug addiction but who take drugs would be safe, and the rare instances where someone really is addicted, there is something a family can do
For most people, it's "can they get treatment", that is the concern.
The parents that put their kids in torture center, for "drug issues", except in rare occasions, don’t have addict kids, they have kids who take drugs.
Post by: psy on November 05, 2007, 01:05:37 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""Guest""These places have a high suicide rate, a high attempted suicide rate, and a sky-high post suicide rate, when the mental damaged torture victim takes their own life BECASUE of what's been done to them, and the destruction that abuse has created in their lives, and mental processes. My guess is that as many as a third kids coming out of these places commit suicide.
How many would that be, in total?
Do you have any data for that?
The suicide rate for kids in programs is extremely low, maybe one event every five years.
I saw some data posted that showed 1,000 to 2,000 kids were killing them selves everyyear outside of programs.
Firstly, child torturer, there’s no official "data", because no "official data"
has EVER been collected on the subject. Further, your industry shills campaign desperately against any "official data" being collected, through regulation.
There is no "official data" of how many kids are in the torture center, to begin with. Youth are disappeared in the night like in banana republics in South America.
However, suicides that are reported on by the media (most aren’t) that are detected by civilians here,(most aren’t) are collected, and the numbers are HIGH considering the “trickle downâ€
Post by: ZenAgent on November 05, 2007, 01:21:33 AM
Post by: Che Gookin on November 05, 2007, 01:38:26 AM
:rofl: :rofl:
addiction is the symptom.. not the disease..
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on November 05, 2007, 09:36:08 AM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Addiction is a disease?
:rofl: :rofl:
addiction is the symptom.. not the disease..
Laugh all you want to, druggie, but it is. :flame: Marijuana is a gateway drug that leads the addict down a perilous road to jail, insanity or death! Addiction is a symptom? Of what? An out-of-control cultural morass? Maybe so, but it is a DISEASE first and foremost!
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 09:44:49 AM
Quote
Laugh all you want to, druggie, but it is. Marijuana is a gateway drug that leads the addict down a perilous road to jail, insanity or death! Addiction is a symptom? Of what? An out-of-control cultural morass? Maybe so, but it is a DISEASE first and foremost!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
A disease!!!! ahahhhhhaaaa!!!
Very funny - it is most certainly not a disease - we can argue this all you want - but I guess that's what you want - subverting the discussion of abuse, torture and sometimes murder to a topic more your liking. Too bad, jackass!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on November 05, 2007, 09:54:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 09:55:57 AM
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on November 05, 2007, 09:59:02 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 10:00:29 AM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quotesuicidal-style living
Wow, dont let regulars hear you talking like that. This sounds like a life style that may need intervention or treatment of some sort. If a parent said that they would be ripped apart.
What you need to say is they are free to die anyway they like as long as it is their choice. Kids should not be forced to live if they choose not to. Parents should not interfer.
If someone has diabetes or cancer is it OK to force them to take insulin or go through chemo if they don't want it?
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 10:19:16 AM
NCES still has not released their data for 2004-2005 year..... as soon as it becomes available I will add the figures in.
You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s.... All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 10:20:56 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 10:24:30 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quotesuicidal-style living
Wow, dont let regulars hear you talking like that. This sounds like a life style that may need intervention or treatment of some sort. If a parent said that they would be ripped apart.
What you need to say is they are free to die anyway they like as long as it is their choice. Kids should not be forced to live if they choose not to. Parents should not interfer.
If someone has diabetes or cancer is it OK to force them to take insulin or go through chemo if they don't want it?
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 10:50:00 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quotesuicidal-style living
Wow, dont let regulars hear you talking like that. This sounds like a life style that may need intervention or treatment of some sort. If a parent said that they would be ripped apart.
What you need to say is they are free to die anyway they like as long as it is their choice. Kids should not be forced to live if they choose not to. Parents should not interfer.
If someone has diabetes or cancer is it OK to force them to take insulin or go through chemo if they don't want it?
Yes, if they are under the age of 21/18 then you can force them to take it. Against popular beliefs here on fornits, It is a parents responsibility. Treatment needs to be forced if need be, when a child becomes an adult then they can fend for themselves, but until that time the parents need to ensure the child’s wellbeing and if they don’t then the parent can go to jail if the child suffers or dies.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 10:57:02 AM
Please ignore TheWho -
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.[/color]
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 11:09:42 AM
Ail kut yew witdishere knife, yewl die.
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 11:11:04 AM
(PROTIP #2: This isn't treatment (http://http://www.aspeneducation.info). But if you got to page 5 of this thread you probably figured that out by now.)
(We now return you to your regularly scheduled trolling.)
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
HELP DOES NOT INCLUDE COERCION, HUMILIATION, TORTURE AND ABUSE!!!!![/color]
Nowhere, We hear you loud and clear and I dont think you will get an argument from anyone here on that statement, even if the torture, humiliation and abuse is self inflicted, it is the parents responsibility to see the child gets help or they could go to jail. You cant just sit back and watch a child suffer and go down hill without getting them help, whether they want it or not.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 11:20:17 AM
Quote from: ""Big Hard Son""
Mamuh, I'm gown' fuk yew, den I'm gown' kee' you..
Ail kut yew witdishere knife, yewl die.
Hahahhahahaha!!!!!
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 12:14:14 PM
The industry as a whole contains many areas from military style boot camps to mental hospitals and we wanted to focus on some specific areas inwhich parents would be interested in, so we narrowed our focus to Therapeutic boarding schools (TBS) and Wilderness programs. If we had taken the route of including all aspects of the mental health field we may find ourselves in a situation of double reporting because some of the institutions are reported in the private sector and the majority of parents we have spoken to, who are looking for information and/or help for their child, are not considering military boot camps or mental hospitals.
So granted our data doesn’t include all areas of the industry it is valuable to those parents who are considering a TBS or Wilderness program for their child.
Hope this helps to clarify our intent.
p.s. If anyone has additional data which meets the criteria or parameters please email me or post it here and I will update the matrix.
...
Post by: ZenAgent on November 05, 2007, 12:15:58 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""HELP DOES NOT INCLUDE COERCION, HUMILIATION, TORTURE AND ABUSE!!!!![/color]
Nowhere, We hear you loud and clear and I dont think you will get an argument from anyone here on that statement, even if the torture, humiliation and abuse is self inflicted, it is the parents responsibility to see the child gets help or they could go to jail. You cant just sit back and watch a child suffer and go down hill without getting them help, whether they want it or not.
...
Do you know anything about Wraparound treatment, Who? Community based treatment? There are other treatment options for extremely troubled kids that don't subject them to the trauma of being yanked from their homes and forced into the "tough love" tactics of strangers. Who, even you should realize that if a kid is "out of control" and "acting out", there's probably a problem in the family dynamic.. Too many parents (like you) won't accept any blame for the problems and ship their kids off to be "fixed". It's possible the child will thrive in the program, simply because he/she is out of the troubled home. What happens when the kid returns and the parents are still fucked-up as ever?
I know some programs advertise they work with the entire family, Peninsula Village claims to "Restore Families and Mend Young Lives". Bullshit, fraudulent advertising there. If the parents of a patient are divorced, the parent paying for the program dictates treatment. My wife asked questions about the program and angered the clinical director, who couldn't answer the questions. He thought questioning any aspect of the program interfered with the therapeutic process. Shortly afterward, my wife photographed her daughter's "restraint" (five fat broads piled on a teenager), and she was denied contact with her daughter for six months, while dad upheld the ban and went to work "Mom bashing" during his sessions with his daughter, with the therapist's tacit approval.
The reality of programs is nothing like our reality, huh? Five women pile on a teenager and pin her face down, one on each limb, one sitting on her back, and the girl is screaming she can't breathe. If that happened on the street, those obese hags would have been arrested. Also, imagine what my wife was experiencing: her daughter is screaming she can't breathe with all those people on her, counselors nearby are actually laughing. The staff is lucky my wife only had a camera in her car - I don't think any jury would have convicted her for emptying a clip into the attackers.
Also, allowing dad to dictate the treatment and uphold the "mom ban" so he can slander and insult his daughter's mother is abhorrent, but perfectly legal in the program. In the real world, that's called parental alienation and ol' dad would have been knocked down a few notches by The Man.
Parents - take a good look at yourselves before you turn your kids over to the tender mercies of strangers who view your kid as a "thing" to be processed and run through the mill for money. You're really doing your kids a disservice by not taking a hard look at yourselves before calling that escort service.
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 12:19:40 PM
Quote
even if the torture, humiliation and abuse is self inflicted,
Blaming the victim, once again.
Why are we even trying to educate this troll? He appears to be un-educatable.
Plus, Ireally wonder he keeps coming on here for more abuse - maybe he's just not SADISTIC, maybe he's masochisc - into the S&M thing.
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 12:22:43 PM
Quote
Do you know anything about Wraparound treatment, Who? Community based treatment? There are other treatment options for extremely troubled kids that don't subject them to the trauma of being yanked from their homes and forced into the "tough love" tactics of strangers. Who, even you should realize that if a kid is "out of control" and "acting out", there's probably a problem in the family dynamic.. Too many parents (like you) won't accept any blame for the problems and ship their kids off to be "fixed". It's possible the child will thrive in the program, simply because he/she is out of the troubled home. What happens when the kid returns and the parents are still fucked-up as ever?
I know some programs advertise they work with the entire family, Peninsula Village claims to "Restore Families and Mend Young Lives". Bullshit, fraudulent advertising there. If the parents of a patient are divorced, the parent paying for the program dictates treatment. My wife asked questions about the program and angered the clinical director, who couldn't answer the questions. He thought questioning any aspect of the program interfered with the therapeutic process. Shortly afterward, my wife photographed her daughter's "restraint" (five fat broads piled on a teenager), and she was denied contact with her daughter for six months, while dad upheld the ban and went to work "Mom bashing" during his sessions with his daughter, with the therapist's tacit approval.
The reality of programs is nothing like our reality, huh? Five women pile on a teenager and pin her face down, one on each limb, one sitting on her back, and the girl is screaming she can't breathe. If that happened on the street, those obese hags would have been arrested. Also, imagine what my wife was experiencing: her daughter is screaming she can't breathe with all those people on her, counselors nearby are actually laughing. The staff is lucky my wife only had a camera in her car - I don't think any jury would have convicted her for emptying a clip into the attackers.
Also, allowing dad to dictate the treatment and uphold the "mom ban" so he can slander and insult his daughter's mother is abhorrent, but perfectly legal in the program. In the real world, that's called parental alienation and ol' dad would have been knocked down a few notches by The Man.
Parents - take a good look at yourselves before you turn your kids over to the tender mercies of strangers who view your kid as a "thing" to be processed and run through the mill for money. You're really doing your kids a disservice by not taking a hard look at yourselves before calling that escort service.
Zenagent - thank you. Two thumbs up.
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 12:32:00 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Parents - take a good look at yourselves before you turn your kids over to the tender mercies of strangers who view your kid as a "thing" to be processed and run through the mill for money. You're really doing your kids a disservice by not taking a hard look at yourselves before calling that escort service.
Good point, I tend to agree with Zen on this point. Many of the better TBS's don’t take kids via escort services and they should only be used in a crisis situation. As far as turning your child over to strangers, this is huge for most parents and should be considered just as important as turning your child over to a daycare provider, pediatrician, tutor, psychologist, private or public school etc. You need to do your homework, visit the school and get to know the people who will be working with your child.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 12:38:58 PM
Do not feed the trolls -[/color]
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 12:40:38 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 12:44:22 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Do you know anything about Wraparound treatment, Who? Community based treatment? There are other treatment options for extremely troubled kids that don't subject them to the trauma of being yanked from their homes and forced into the "tough love" tactics of strangers. Who, even you should realize that if a kid is "out of control" and "acting out", there's probably a problem in the family dynamic.. Too many parents (like you) won't accept any blame for the problems and ship their kids off to be "fixed". It's possible the child will thrive in the program, simply because he/she is out of the troubled home. What happens when the kid returns and the parents are still fucked-up as ever?
I think most parents are aware of the treatment options locally, by the time they are looking for treatment outside the home and most realize it isn’t just the child that needs fixing or shipping off (as you call it). But this is what the TBS’s do, they help the entire family and if they feel the child isn’t in a healthy environment then they will suggest the child move from the TBS onto a private boarding school close to home. If there are problems within the home and parents agree to work on them and are successful then the school may recommend the child to transition directly back home. There were 2 cases in my daughters group where the family was successful in stabilizing things at home and doing some hard work themselves to accomplish this and at least one case where it was suggested the child not go home afterwards.
So each case is different and each child will progress down their own path to success.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 12:46:37 PM
Do not feed the trolls.[/color]
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 12:50:53 PM
Post by: Nihilanthic on November 05, 2007, 12:54:15 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I think most parents are aware of the treatment options locally, by the time they are looking for treatment outside the home and most realize it isn’t just the child that needs fixing or shipping off (as you call it). But this is what the TBS’s do, they help the entire family and if they feel the child isn’t in a healthy environment then they will suggest the child move from the TBS onto a private boarding school close to home. If there are problems within the home and parents agree to work on them and are successful then the school may recommend the child to transition directly back home. There were 2 cases in my daughters group where the family was successful in stabilizing things at home and doing some hard work themselves to accomplish this and at least one case where it was suggested the child not go home afterwards.
So each case is different and each child will progress down their own path to success.
...
More made up bullshit.
Programs are not treatment based at all. They keep the kid and make the child complete a level system based program, not diagnose anything and see if a child needs to be removed from home or not.
And for that matter, nobody should be held captive and locked up unless they NEED To be. That is one of the ethics of the medical community - something the program industry does not have.
Furthermore, it doesn't take years and years to "stabilize" anything, and you don't need to send someone away in handcuffs and put them in a program to do so.
You just made this shit up after the fact and stuck some buzzwords in! This has no basis in anything at all! You can't even show us a program that "works at home", can you?
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 01:01:16 PM
Quote
these 'schools' lie and put on a good show! The parents dont get to see what really goes on...the parents should talk to survivors to get the real scoop. these parents get desperate they cant bully thier kids into submission anymore that they have to outsource the bullying. parents are the problem and thier parents and thier parents before them. someones gotta stop and take some resposibility here... work it out yourself take time off be with your child and find the balance to get through the teen years...no biggie time marchs on... we've all been there and we'll all get through it...remember when you thought your toddler would never figure out how to put his shoes on the right feet...well he eventually did so trust everything will work out this time too!!! please for the sake of both your sanities and future relationship.
:P
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 01:12:44 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Quote from: ""TheWho""I think most parents are aware of the treatment options locally, by the time they are looking for treatment outside the home and most realize it isn’t just the child that needs fixing or shipping off (as you call it). But this is what the TBS’s do, they help the entire family and if they feel the child isn’t in a healthy environment then they will suggest the child move from the TBS onto a private boarding school close to home. If there are problems within the home and parents agree to work on them and are successful then the school may recommend the child to transition directly back home. There were 2 cases in my daughters group where the family was successful in stabilizing things at home and doing some hard work themselves to accomplish this and at least one case where it was suggested the child not go home afterwards.
So each case is different and each child will progress down their own path to success.
...
More made up bullshit.
Programs are not treatment based at all. They keep the kid and make the child complete a level system based program, not diagnose anything and see if a child needs to be removed from home or not.
And for that matter, nobody should be held captive and locked up unless they NEED To be. That is one of the ethics of the medical community - something the program industry does not have.
Furthermore, it doesn't take years and years to "stabilize" anything, and you don't need to send someone away in handcuffs and put them in a program to do so.
You just made this shit up after the fact and stuck some buzzwords in! This has no basis in anything at all! You can't even show us a program that "works at home", can you?
Well, "the proof is in the pudding "... as they say. Between 20,000 and 50,000 kids are successfully helped each year by these programs and have moved on with their lives. Talk to some of the parents who had kids attend and graduate from these facilities. Talk to some of the kids who graduated..
I don’t expect parents to take my word for it or yours, Niles... this is their children we are talking about, they need to do their homework themselves and insure their children are in a safe environment by talking to the people who will be caring for them not a bunch of people in a forum in the internet.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 01:20:03 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 01:20:08 PM
Do not feed the trolls.[/color]
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 01:25:47 PM
1. ATTEMPTED suicides would be a good stat to include too. along with rapes, attempted rapes, physical mental and sexual harrasment, and suicides and attempted suicides after release, along with reports of PTSD after release. also please factor in restraint-related injuries and deaths, including forign tbs's like TB or casa by the sea. maybe you should also find total numbers of employed individuals in the industry who are either unqualified, have sadistic tendencies, have criminal records, or are substance abusers themselves.
2. those stats prove without a doubt that you are working for the industry. they also prove that you dont know jack shit about the industry. doctor your stats all you want, we all now there fake.
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 01:28:10 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
the kids who just 'graduated' are brainwashed you retard. go talk to them in 15 20 yrs!
Well, so the programs are only good for 20 years or so (big deal) and so they finally come out of it, approaching 40 years old, and find themselves in a healthy lifestyle with 3 kids of their own, great job and life and they get this sudden urge to smoke pot and have unprotective sex with strangers... things could be worse... they could call the school and ask for their money back.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 01:29:13 PM
If they survive the program and come out alive. Or don't eat a gun after they get out.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 01:36:15 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 01:37:04 PM
Quote from: ""Nowhere""
the who - two points on those stats you posted:
1. ATTEMPTED suicides would be a good stat to include too. along with rapes, attempted rapes, physical mental and sexual harrasment, and suicides and attempted suicides after release, along with reports of PTSD after release. also please factor in restraint-related injuries and deaths, including forign tbs's like TB or casa by the sea. maybe you should also find total numbers of employed individuals in the industry who are either unqualified, have sadistic tendencies, have criminal records, or are substance abusers themselves.
I agree, we can add all those pararmeters when the data becomes available. The NCES or CDC doesnt collect this data presently so I dont have anything to compare it to nor a means to capture it. If you have any suggestions on how we could make this data available I would be willing to listen.
Quote from: ""Nowhere""
2. those stats prove without a doubt that you are working for the industry. they also prove that you dont know jack shit about the industry. doctor your stats all you want, we all now there fake.
So you conclude I work for the industry but dont know anything about it? Hmmm... interesting conclusion, Nowhere.
...
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 05, 2007, 01:45:53 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Well, "the proof is in the pudding "... as they say. Between 20,000 and 50,000 kids are successfully helped each year by these programs and have moved on with their lives.
Care to back that up with anything other than 'your word'? Got any long term, clinical studies to back that up or is that just more bullshit you're pulling out of your ass? Shit, Straight claimed at one point that it had 50,000 'successful' grads. All bullshit. Mel and Betty Sembler still have on their bios that 12,000 graduated successfully. Bullshit.
Quit saying they're successful until you can back it up with actual FACTS.
Dickhead. :roll: ::fu::
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 01:46:42 PM
Quote
Well, so the programs are only good for 20 years or so (big deal) and so they finally come out of it, approaching 40 years old, and find themselves in a healthy lifestyle with 3 kids of their own, great job and life and they get this sudden urge to smoke pot and have unprotective sex with strangers... things could be worse... they could call the school and ask for their money back.
If you are willing to gamble with your child's life - then by all means - put them in a program. The suffering and abuse they will endure will be well worth it, even it only last for 20 years - but until then, they will be carbon copy cut-outs - veritable tools who "will have achieved their potential" - you can get your money back unless the contract states you can't (& most don't have the moneybackguarantee)
too bad
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 05, 2007, 01:53:05 PM
Quote
Well, so the programs are only good for 20 years or so (big deal) and so they finally come out of it, approaching 40 years old, and find themselves in a healthy lifestyle with 3 kids of their own, great job and life and they get this sudden urge to smoke pot and have unprotective sex with strangers... things could be worse... they could call the school and ask for their money back.
No, they're not "good". They may temporarily change some outward behaviors, but they'll come right back and very often are much worse due to the mindscramble they've just been through. My father and quite a few others swore up and down that Straight saved my life, taught me sooo much, kept me out of jail....blah blah blah.
All bullshit. They fucked with the very core of my being. They fucked with my soul to bring about those miraculous changes they saw in me (I was a good little Straight robot for a bit). They made me doubt my own instincts, they took away my survival and coping skills and installed a deep sense of conformity. They basically gutted me and then told me to go out and behave like a responsible adult. Yeah, right.
:flame:
Post by: TheWho on November 05, 2007, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
QuoteWell, so the programs are only good for 20 years or so (big deal) and so they finally come out of it, approaching 40 years old, and find themselves in a healthy lifestyle with 3 kids of their own, great job and life and they get this sudden urge to smoke pot and have unprotective sex with strangers... things could be worse... they could call the school and ask for their money back.
No, they're not "good". They may temporarily change some outward behaviors, but they'll come right back and very often are much worse due to the mindscramble they've just been through. My father and quite a few others swore up and down that Straight saved my life, taught me sooo much, kept me out of jail....blah blah blah.
All bullshit. They fucked with the very core of my being. They fucked with my soul to bring about those miraculous changes they saw in me (I was a good little Straight robot for a bit). They made me doubt my own instincts, they took away my survival and coping skills and installed a deep sense of conformity. They basically gutted me and then told me to go out and behave like a responsible adult. Yeah, right.
:flame:
Straight has been closed for decades, give it a rest. Lets stay focused on the present.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on November 05, 2007, 02:10:33 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Straight has been closed for decades, give it a rest. Lets stay focused on the present.
To hell with you!!! :flame: :flame:
Straight is alive and well!! :roll:
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 05, 2007, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Straight has been closed for decades, give it a rest. Lets stay focused on the present.
I'm not bitching about my circumstances. Just relaying the story as it pertains to this discussion. Try to keep up.
Post by: Oz girl on November 05, 2007, 03:15:53 PM
The areas where these is a high crime, pregnancy and addiction rate among young ppl have overwhelmingly been poor. In the late 90s Iowa had the same teen pregnancy rate as sweden (the lowest in the OECD at the time) What this indicates is that kids get into real extreme toruble for the same reasons as adults. Poverty, lack of education and oppotunity. Ironically the shithouse education of programs appears to reduce these things among young ppl from a socioeconomic group that is least likely to fall through the cracks.
The children of Americas middle classes are as likely statistically to grow out of their transgressions as their counterparts in the rest of the western world. This indicates there is absolutely no need for a system of incarceration without trial no matter how pretty the prison
Post by: Deborah on November 05, 2007, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Just how many hardcore Adolescent drug addicts are there in the US anyway? The adolescent crime, pregnancy and addcition rates in the US has been falling over the last 20 yrs yet this industry has grown.
The areas where these is a high crime, pregnancy and addiction rate among young ppl have overwhelmingly been poor. In the late 90s Iowa had the same teen pregnancy rate as sweden (the lowest in the OECD at the time) What this indicates is that kids get into real extreme toruble for the same reasons as adults. Poverty, lack of education and oppotunity. Ironically the shithouse education of programs appears to reduce these things among young ppl from a socioeconomic group that is least likely to fall through the cracks.
The children of Americas middle classes are as likely statistically to grow out of their transgressions as their counterparts in the rest of the western world. This indicates there is absolutely no need for a system of incarceration without trial no matter how pretty the prison
Astute summary.
Not sure though, that they are responsible for reducing poverty, lack of education or opportunity in the middle class.
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 04:05:47 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 05, 2007, 06:48:42 PM
Making an emotional appeal to vague ideas of freedom and liberty does nothing to change the fact drug treatment has saved countless lives and will continue to do so long after this forum ceases to exist.
The heartless comments that litter this discussion are a common example of the typical American bystander who refuses to help someone dying within their sight.
Shame
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 02:32:26 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Well, "the proof is in the pudding "... as they say.
...
Your pudding tastes like shit.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 09:02:56 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Oz girl""Just how many hardcore Adolescent drug addicts are there in the US anyway? The adolescent crime, pregnancy and addcition rates in the US has been falling over the last 20 yrs yet this industry has grown.
Thanks for the olny truth in this thread..children are not worthless once they hit thier teens they are just finding thier own way..leave them alone! you sadistic fearbased shadow of a human parent..go read a f^$%#ing book and back the f^%$# off!
The areas where these is a high crime, pregnancy and addiction rate among young ppl have overwhelmingly been poor. In the late 90s Iowa had the same teen pregnancy rate as sweden (the lowest in the OECD at the time) What this indicates is that kids get into real extreme toruble for the same reasons as adults. Poverty, lack of education and oppotunity. Ironically the shithouse education of programs appears to reduce these things among young ppl from a socioeconomic group that is least likely to fall through the cracks.
The children of Americas middle classes are as likely statistically to grow out of their transgressions as their counterparts in the rest of the western world. This indicates there is absolutely no need for a system of incarceration without trial no matter how pretty the prison
Astute summary.
Not sure though, that they are responsible for reducing poverty, lack of education or opportunity in the middle class.
Post by: psy on November 06, 2007, 11:31:19 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
They are worthless if they are using drugs. They are worthless to themselves, their family and society in general. The idea of humane treatment is to force them - yes, this is coercion - to stop poisoning themselves to death.
Making an emotional appeal to vague ideas of freedom and liberty does nothing to change the fact drug treatment has saved countless lives and will continue to do so long after this forum ceases to exist.
Freedom and liberty are not vague ideas but what this country is supposed to be built on. Even if forced treatment worked (which it does not) it would still violate a person's most basic rights (especially in this industry, where there is no due process or right to appeal).
This means people like me can get sent to program (as I was) for being bisexual and having religious opinions my parents felt distasteful. Yes I have documentation to prove this. Point being is that "in need of treatment" is very relative, and what this industry offers is not treatment, but private pay re-education (in the soviet sense of the phrase).
Quote
The heartless comments that litter this discussion are a common example of the typical American bystander who refuses to help someone dying within their sight.
Shame
The fact that you are so convinced that death is inevitable without your idea of "treatment" is precisely what makes people like you so dangerous. Are you a medical doctor? You accuse me of making an emotional appeal based on freedom then call me heartless in the next breath before making another emotional appeal... whatever.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 12:41:54 PM
Quote
This means people like me can get sent to program (as I was) for being bisexual and having religious opinions my parents felt distasteful. Yes I have documentation to prove this.
I checked the Benchmark website and was surprised to find it is a program for adults up to age 28.
They make no mention forced treatment.
Either you were committed by the state of California for being a danger to yourself or others, or you went wilingly.
What rights of yours were violated?
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 12:46:32 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 12:50:51 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 06, 2007, 12:58:06 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
They are worthless if they are using drugs. They are worthless to themselves, their family and society in general. The idea of humane treatment is to force them - yes, this is coercion - to stop poisoning themselves to death.
Do you people not make any distinction between use and abuse?
What gives you the right to force anyone to do anything? Even if it is for their own good?
Should I forcibly stop you from pounding down the Big Macs?
Should I forcibly stop all people from smoking cigarettes?
How 'bout those diet drinks? All that diet shit is poison too. Should we round them up?
Quote
Making an emotional appeal to vague ideas of freedom and liberty does nothing to change the fact drug treatment has saved countless lives and will continue to do so long after this forum ceases to exist.
That may or may not be. "Treatment" centers generally don't allow any clinical, long term studies or research to be done on them. Hell, the last and only time that AA allowed a study to be done it came back that they had the same "success" rate as doing nothing and that participation in AA actually RAISED the death rate. And that study was done by a Board member of AA.
"Treatment" centers don't like studies very much. They never seem to prove out the outlandish claims made by them.
Quote
The heartless comments that litter this discussion are a common example of the typical American bystander who refuses to help someone dying within their sight.
Shame
Its a shame I had so much "help" for a problem I didn't even have that it almost killed me.
Post by: TheWho on November 06, 2007, 01:05:22 PM
Quote
What gives you the right to force anyone to do anything? Even if it is for their own good?
Should I forcibly stop you from pounding down the Big Macs?
Should I forcibly stop all people from smoking cigarettes?
How 'bout those diet drinks? All that diet shit is poison too. Should we round them up?
If you are the childs parents not only do you have the right, you have a moral and legal duty to do everything you can to stop them from hurting or killing themselves.
If you just sit there watching your 2 year old child as he drowns in a pool you are going to jail, you are responsible until the child is of legal age, doesnt matter if the child is 2 or 16 years old, the parent needs to do everything they can to help them.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 06, 2007, 01:09:22 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
If you just sit there watching your 2 year old child as he drowns in a pool you are going to jail, you are responsible until the child is of legal age, doesnt matter if the child is 2 or 16 years old, the parent needs to do everything they can to help them.
Mmm hmm. And if I subject my child to the kinds of "help" found in these places I'd be locked up for abuse.
Drowning in a pool is a far cry from smoking pot or drinking. Of course its scary. It was scary for me, but I knew better than to have her forcibly "altered".
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:14:53 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
What gives you the right to force anyone to do anything? Even if it is for their own good?
Should I forcibly stop you from pounding down the Big Macs?
Should I forcibly stop all people from smoking cigarettes?
How 'bout those diet drinks? All that diet shit is poison too. Should we round them up?
If I was your spouse, brother, sister, son or daughter then I assume you would be doing everything you could to keep me from making unhealthy choices that result in death, or jail (Would you stop me from being a bank robber?).
This is what love is, we try to protect things we love from self-destructing. Drugs do it faster, and the effects are more noticeable in the short-term so I assume this is why there is a difference in the action ultimately taken.
Quote
That may or may not be. "Treatment" centers generally don't allow any clinical, long term studies or research to be done on them. Hell, the last and only time that AA allowed a study to be done it came back that they had the same "success" rate as doing nothing and that participation in AA actually RAISED the death rate. And that study was done by a Board member of AA.
"Treatment" centers don't like studies very much. They never seem to prove out the outlandish claims made by them.
This could also prove that the people going through treatment, needed it, proven by the fact they return to the same unhealthy and potentially fatal behavior as before. Remember- true drug and alcohol addiction can be a hard problem to overcome, most users relapse after treatment.
If most treatment placements were unecessary, these numbers would show programs in a positive light because they would simply choose to stop using drugs. Unfortunately, it's not that simple.
Quote
Its a shame I had so much "help" for a problem I didn't even have that it almost killed me.
If you did not have a serious drug or alcohol problem, then you should not be in drug treatment obviously. Your parents made a very poor choice and you paid the consequences, that is a shame.
This is why we need more professionals in the field of addiction. There is no blood test for alcohol or drug addiction. Treatment facilities have only the word of the loved one's instigating treatment, since an addict will not admit they have a problem. They are content to keep using until they die.
It is a hard situation for everyone involved.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 06, 2007, 01:23:33 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
There is no blood test for alcohol or drug addiction.
Because its not a disease.
http://www.peele.net/debate/choice.html (http://www.peele.net/debate/choice.html)
Damn, just had a client come in. There's a ton more links regarding this subject.....anyone else got a few??? I'll be back to continue.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:28:12 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""Guest""There is no blood test for alcohol or drug addiction.
Because its not a disease.
http://www.peele.net/debate/choice.html (http://www.peele.net/debate/choice.html)
Damn, just had a client come in. There's a ton more links regarding this subject.....anyone else got a few??? I'll be back to continue.
Is there a blood test for Schizephrenia? Bipolar? Multiple Personality Disorder? Cutting? Suicide?
Let's agree addiction is a personality disorder, I can live with that.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Anne, why argue with this troll - it's a total waste of your time.
Nobody is arguing here. This is called a discussion, something that takes place on a discussion forum. Is open discussion really that much of a threat to your anti-program position? Must be...
Post by: psy on November 06, 2007, 01:39:20 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It's for 17-28. Check the contract, there is a section for minors. Many come from other programs. Benchmark is a so-called "transitional" program.QuoteThis means people like me can get sent to program (as I was) for being bisexual and having religious opinions my parents felt distasteful. Yes I have documentation to prove this.
I checked the Benchmark website and was surprised to find it is a program for adults up to age 28.
Quote
They make no mention forced treatment.They say a lot of shit. It doesn't make it true.
Quote
Either you were committed by the state of California for being a danger to yourself or others, or you went wilingly."committed" implies it is a medical facility. Can you find any license or accreditation for Benchmark? Thought not.
Did I not say what I was sent there for? I've already posted documentation on this forum proving that before and if I didn't have better things to do I'd post another link.
Edit: here it is:
http://www.fornits.com/docs/referralInfo.pdf (http://www.fornits.com/docs/referralInfo.pdf)
Quote
What rights of yours were violated?
I created a website to answer questions like this. To put it simply, I was told by Benchmark I signed away my rights when I came into program. What was advertised was not delivered. My property was taken from me, my identification, and any money (yes this is theft). Although I could technically leave, there are no local homeless shelters and what the hell could I do without ID, cash, clothes, food, water, shelter, etc... They would actually throw people on the streets for days as punishment (and permanently when the money ran out).
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:40:52 PM
Quote
Nobody is arguing here. This is called a discussion, something that takes place on a discussion forum. Is open discussion really that much of a threat to your anti-program position? Must be...
You aren't interested in a discussion either. So quit acting like you are. A discussion is something where ideas are hashed out and ideas exchanged -[b] you are only INVESTED in telling us how *addicts* (people who use drugs - hahaha) are going to end up deadinsaneorinjail.[/b] Now, that doesn't sound like a discussion to me. You have your conclusion, now go peddle it somewhere else, troll!
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:41:47 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:43:46 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:48:14 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
"committed" implies it is a medical facility. Can you find any license or accreditation for Benchmark? Thought not.
So you went willingly? How old were you?
Quote
I signed away my rights when I came into program.
What rights, exactly?
Quote
Although I could technically leave
What rights did you sign away if you could walk out the door at anytime?
Quote
what the hell could I do without ID, cash, clothes, food, water, shelter, etc...
Did they really throw you out naked? Ha,Ha,Ha... if I was being abused or violated in any way, this wouldnt' stop me from leaving.
Quote
(and permanently when the money ran out).
You could of done what these people did, unless there is a pile of skeletons out fron of Benchmark, they must of gone somewhere.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:50:57 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:52:32 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You aren't interested in a discussion either. So quit acting like you are. A discussion is something where ideas are hashed out and ideas exchanged -[b] you are only INVESTED in telling us how *addicts* (people who use drugs - hahaha) are going to end up deadinsaneorinjail.[/b] Now, that doesn't sound like a discussion to me. You have your conclusion, now go peddle it somewhere else, troll!
No-I think I will stick around for a while. This is an intereting forum.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:54:24 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
...tell me what did your parents do to you?
My parents love me very much, I had a wonderful childhood.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:54:50 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:56:43 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 01:56:48 PM
Quote
No-I think I will stick around for a while. This is an intereting forum.
Oh, I know you'll stick around - & we'll have our fun with you - thanks for playing - you make internet life so much more interesting -
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 02:05:38 PM
Quote
thats what they all say great childhood my ass dig a little deeper your still in denial
I am not in denial. You asked what my parents did to me, they did nothing other than love me unconditionally, and still do today. I consider myself very lucky, especially after reading this forum.
Quote
Oh, I know you'll stick around - & we'll have our fun with you - thanks for playing - you make internet life so much more interesting -
Tbanks-I look forward to it.
Post by: psy on November 06, 2007, 02:12:54 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy"""committed" implies it is a medical facility. Can you find any license or accreditation for Benchmark? Thought not.
So you went willingly? How old were you?
Yeah I went willingly. I was told it was a boarding school.
Quote
Read the constitution and figure it out yourself.QuoteI signed away my rights when I came into program.
What rights, exactly?
Quote
QuoteAlthough I could technically leave
What rights did you sign away if you could walk out the door at anytime?
I didn't sign away any rights, they just told me I did and denied me them anyway. If you want details, read my website (try not to skim, but actually read it).
Quote
Quotewhat the hell could I do without ID, cash, clothes, food, water, shelter, etc...
Did they really throw you out naked?
When I said clothes, I meant apart from those on your back at the time. I figured that would be clear enough without having to explain the obvious.
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha... if I was being abused or violated in any way, this wouldnt' stop me from leaving.
Ha, Ha, Ha ... How old are you. Maybe you should send yourself there. They'll find some issues (or create some brand new ones).
Quote
Quote(and permanently when the money ran out).
You could of done what these people did, unless there is a pile of skeletons out front of Benchmark, they must of gone somewhere.
Look. I wish I had time to re-type my website but I don't. Most, if not all of your questions should be answered there. I don't have time to be redundant for you.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 02:28:52 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Yeah I went willingly. I was told it was a boarding school.
How old were you when you signed yourself in?
Quote
Read the constitution and figure it out yourself.
I've read it many times. If you "didn't sign away any rights", what should I be looking for?
Quote
I didn't sign away any rights,
Wait a second, didn't you just say you did a few minutes ago? Remember this quote:
Quote
I signed away my rights when I came into program.
Either you did, or you didn't.
Quote
Ha, Ha, Ha ... How old are you. Maybe you should send yourself there. They'll find some issues (or create some brand new ones).
Too old for benchmark, but if my parents asked me to go to another treatment center for no reason, I would decline.
Quote
Look. I wish I had time to re-type my website but I don't. Most, if not all of your questions should be answered there. I don't have time to be redundant for you.
You have time to indict an entire industry and build websites, but don't have the time to back up your claims? I'm sure the readers of this forum can read between the lines.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 02:36:13 PM
Quote
I'm sure the readers of this forum can read between the lines.
YES!! We can - you're a troll. Have a magical day![/color]
(http://http://www.mninter.net/~richard/Please%20do%20not%20feed%20the%20trolls.jpg)
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 02:40:57 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 02:42:50 PM
:rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Oz girl on November 06, 2007, 05:07:45 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Deb, I think she means the obvious, although she phrased it poorly: that programs destroy their family's money (sometimes with parents ripping it out of their college funds), destroy their education (as they aren't accredited schools, they don't even get GEDs, and they're ill-prepared for college anyway), and seriously, how much opportunity can they have after being told that they're worthless day in and day out?
Actually it could be either of these things. The point is that statistically speaking middle class kids everywhere are given more chances to grow out of their vices or in the rare cases that it is necessary get quality medical help. These is also more incentive to eventually straighen up anf fly right becuase the middle classes feel they have more to loose by being in legal hot water. Consequently in most cases this is exactly what happens. Kids grow out of the worst.
To give a personal example i have a friend whose younger brother was about the most hideous teenager imaginable. Eventually at about 17 and 1/2 his laywer pointed out to him that at 18 he was an adult and a judge was going to be a whole lot less lenient about the wild oats he seemed to need to sow. The kid did not straighten out over night but he did calm down a little when he realised that it was no longer cute and he stood to loose something. At 25 he is just fine. He is not a laywer or a stockbroker as his parents had once hoped but he is not drug addicted or in jail either. He has also travelled to exotic places and done a variety of jobs.
There is no doubt in my mind that if this kid lived with the right set of parents in the US he woud have been program material.
Post by: TheWho on November 06, 2007, 05:57:48 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""Guest""Deb, I think she means the obvious, although she phrased it poorly: that programs destroy their family's money (sometimes with parents ripping it out of their college funds), destroy their education (as they aren't accredited schools, they don't even get GEDs, and they're ill-prepared for college anyway), and seriously, how much opportunity can they have after being told that they're worthless day in and day out?
Actually it could be either of these things. The point is that statistically speaking middle class kids everywhere are given more chances to grow out of their vices or in the rare cases that it is necessary get quality medical help. These is also more incentive to eventually straighen up anf fly right becuase the middle classes feel they have more to loose by being in legal hot water. Consequently in most cases this is exactly what happens. Kids grow out of the worst.
To give a personal example i have a friend whose younger brother was about the most hideous teenager imaginable. Eventually at about 17 and 1/2 his laywer pointed out to him that at 18 he was an adult and a judge was going to be a whole lot less lenient about the wild oats he seemed to need to sow. The kid did not straighten out over night but he did calm down a little when he realised that it was no longer cute and he stood to loose something. At 25 he is just fine. He is not a laywer or a stockbroker as his parents had once hoped but he is not drug addicted or in jail either. He has also travelled to exotic places and done a variety of jobs.
There is no doubt in my mind that if this kid lived with the right set of parents in the US he woud have been program material.
It really makes it difficult to determine which kids will grow out of it and which ones will not. There are too many stories like the one CCM told where her cousin hit bottom at age 27. This guy could have benefited from getting help in his teens. So faced with these decisions (and results like these) it is hard to just throw up our hands and say lets wait and see.... we are not a "Wait and see" society. we are doers and solvers and look for results quickly. That is why parents look for help outside when they cant solve the issues locally or within the home.
...
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 06, 2007, 06:22:38 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I know open and free discussion is a threat to your cherished ideological beliefs, but give it a try sometime. You might even like it.
I wish they would give it a try too. But, it's doubtful at this point. I also wish that his parents would've gotten him help earlier when we he had no rights, or say if he had to go to treatment. But, that was not the case. I know that sounds horrible, but I just don't think things would have spun so out of control as they are now if this was taken care of earlier. If I remember correctly he went to rehab when he was 20, then released himself after 2 days.
I will keep you posted on his progress. We have 2 full months paid for him. It might take more, I think it will before he enters a halfway house. I guess with Crystal Meth there is no physical withdrawl which is good but there is a mental withdrawl from the drug. I don't know if that makes it any better, or easier? Probably not. But, he has been there for 5 days. Not so easy for him to take off. He is about 2,000 miles from home.
Post by: TheWho on November 06, 2007, 06:33:35 PM
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""
Quote from: ""Guest""I know open and free discussion is a threat to your cherished ideological beliefs, but give it a try sometime. You might even like it.
I wish they would give it a try too. But, it's doubtful at this point. I also wish that his parents would've gotten him help earlier when we he had no rights, or say if he had to go to treatment. But, that was not the case. I know that sounds horrible, but I just don't think things would have spun so out of control as they are now if this was taken care of earlier. If I remember correctly he went to rehab when he was 20, then released himself after 2 days.
I will keep you posted on his progress. We have 2 full months paid for him. It might take more, I think it will before he enters a halfway house. I guess with Crystal Meth there is no physical withdrawl which is good but there is a mental withdrawl from the drug. I don't know if that makes it any better, or easier? Probably not. But, he has been there for 5 days. Not so easy for him to take off. He is about 2,000 miles from home.
We have utilized and have heard of many good successes from Halzelden which is in Minnesota, just north of Minneapolis. It is expensive, I think we covered $800/Day for the first 3 weeks *(stabilization) and then it drops down to about $80/day when they transition into group housing....and he was there for a year/ year and a half, so the money can run up quickly. Where did you send your cousin?
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 06:36:39 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
It really makes it difficult to determine which kids will grow out of it and which ones will not. There are too many stories like the one CCM told where her cousin hit bottom at age 27. This guy could have benefited from getting help in his teens. So faced with these decisions (and results like these) it is hard to just throw up our hands and say lets wait and see.... we are not a "Wait and see" society. we are doers and solvers and look for results quickly. [/color] That is why parents look for help outside when they cant solve the issues locally or within the home.
...
Spoken like a true Pro-Program propaganda (bullshit) spreader. You say that you looked for results quickly and that's why you did not try famil;y counseling before shipping your own daughter off to a hell hole.
I'll bet your sales pitch to parents is "It's good enough for my daughter so send your child."
It's a whole lot easier to ship a kid off and let someone else deal with them than deal with them yourself. "The easier and softer way for you." And hell it don't hurt that it puts a dollar in your pocket. I would bet you would even sell out you mother if you knew it would make you a dollar.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 06, 2007, 06:49:25 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""Quote from: ""Guest""I know open and free discussion is a threat to your cherished ideological beliefs, but give it a try sometime. You might even like it.
I wish they would give it a try too. But, it's doubtful at this point. I also wish that his parents would've gotten him help earlier when we he had no rights, or say if he had to go to treatment. But, that was not the case. I know that sounds horrible, but I just don't think things would have spun so out of control as they are now if this was taken care of earlier. If I remember correctly he went to rehab when he was 20, then released himself after 2 days.
I will keep you posted on his progress. We have 2 full months paid for him. It might take more, I think it will before he enters a halfway house. I guess with Crystal Meth there is no physical withdrawl which is good but there is a mental withdrawl from the drug. I don't know if that makes it any better, or easier? Probably not. But, he has been there for 5 days. Not so easy for him to take off. He is about 2,000 miles from home.
We have utilized and have heard of many good successes from Halzelden which is in Minnesota, just north of Minneapolis. It is expensive, I think we covered $800/Day for the first 3 weeks *(stabilization) and then it drops down to about $80/day when they transition into group housing....and he was there for a year/ year and a half, so the money can run up quickly. Where did you send your cousin?
...
It's called Alternative In Treatment located in Boca Raton, FL.
Post by: TheWho on November 06, 2007, 06:50:10 PM
Quote
I would bet you would even sell out you mother if you knew it would make you a dollar.
Ha,Ha,Ha, Reminds me of the old Bill Cosby “Bullet in the furnaceâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 06:57:45 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Spoken like a true Pro-Program propaganda (bullshit) spreader. You say that you looked for results quickly and that's why you did not try famil;y counseling before shipping your own daughter off to a hell hole.
I'll bet your sales pitch to parents is "It's good enough for my daughter so send your child."
It's a whole lot easier to ship a kid off and let someone else deal with them than deal with them yourself. "The easier and softer way for you." And hell it don't hurt that it puts a dollar in your pocket. I would bet you would even sell out you mother if you knew it would make you a dollar.
PLEASE DON"T FEED THIS TROLL!!!!![/color][/i][/quote]
(see how stupid it is? give it some thought.)
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 06, 2007, 07:01:51 PM
Post by: Botched Programming on November 06, 2007, 07:07:42 PM
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""
It's called Alternative In Treatment located in Boca Raton, FL.
(Boca Raton, Delray Beach, and surrounding areas are the treatment capital of the east coast)
I personally have had dealings with Alternatives in Boca. They rely heavily on the local AA/NA/CA/SLAA meetings in the area to do their job and mostly deal with adults.
The group sessions are merely more than an extension of the "Whatever Anonymous" meetings that they attend. They use the Hanley Hazelton step books to go through to start a person on their step cult programming.
But again when it comes to Adolescent Programs, show me one that is good.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 06, 2007, 07:16:17 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""It's called Alternative In Treatment located in Boca Raton, FL.
(Boca Raton, Delray Beach, and surrounding areas are the treatment capital of the east coast)
I personally have had dealings with Alternatives in Boca. They rely heavily on the local AA/NA/CA/SLAA meetings in the area to do their job and mostly deal with adults.
The group sessions are merely more than an extension of the "Whatever Anonymous" meetings that they attend. They use the Hanley Hazelton step books to go through to start a person on their step cult programming.
But again when it comes to Adolescent Programs, show me one that is good.
Wait, I thought this subject was "Drug addicts don't want to get clean?" Um....my cousin does. I am not shocked that you had to throw in that this step cult programming bullshit. I realize that this is the troubled teen forum. However, since most of you here believe in just letting your children do whatever the hell they want, it might be helpful to have the name, and a review of this treatment facility for later down the road. Ya know, just in case.
Post by: Botched Programming on November 06, 2007, 07:22:38 PM
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""
Wait, I thought this subject was "Drug addicts don't want to get clean?" Um....my cousin does. I am not shocked that you had to throw in that this step cult programming bullshit. I realize that this is the troubled teen forum. However, since most of you here believe in just letting your children do whatever the hell they want, it might be helpful to have the name, and a review of this treatment facility for later down the road. Ya know, just in case.
Addicts will not get clean until they have the desire to. And most of the time when an addict goes into some type of treatment center, they are running from some situation in their life.
As far as treatment centers go, these people would be better off saving their money and going to meetings. (Not that I support or attend meetings.)
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
As far as treatment centers go, these people would be better off saving their money and going to meetings. (Not that I support or attend meetings.)
Ha,Ha,Ha..
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 06, 2007, 07:28:31 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Quote from: ""CCM girl 1989""Wait, I thought this subject was "Drug addicts don't want to get clean?" Um....my cousin does. I am not shocked that you had to throw in that this step cult programming bullshit. I realize that this is the troubled teen forum. However, since most of you here believe in just letting your children do whatever the hell they want, it might be helpful to have the name, and a review of this treatment facility for later down the road. Ya know, just in case.
Addicts will not get clean until they have the desire to. And most of the time when an addict goes into some type of treatment center, they are running from some situation in their life.
As far as treatment centers go, these people would be better off saving their money and going to meetings. (Not that I support or attend meetings.)
He needs a lot of support right now. He can't have these drugs so readily available to him right now when he is so vulnerable. Can you not understand that? In order for him to get clean he needs to be in a treatment center for that extra support. Later on, he will have to be strong on his own. But, in the beginning it's very difficult for people.
Post by: Nihilanthic on November 06, 2007, 09:20:43 PM
You are not capable of stating such a need, as you lack the PhD by your name.
You are right that SOME may need it and SOME may want, and it should be offered in both cases... and in the case of a NEED, in the least invasive, least restrictive, least unpleasant way possible.
Support is one thing... bullshit is another.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 09:20:44 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 09:24:06 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
how old are you ccn? your a just still such a magnet for sociopaths. you need to come back here in 10 yrs and then tell us what you think. right now you are just prey and bait. if you dont know what i'm saying, you will in 10 yrs! promise.
You need to take your own advice, see you in ten years.
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 09:26:35 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 06, 2007, 09:40:35 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 10:10:53 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 06, 2007, 10:20:36 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
ccm you need jr. retards annon
FAIL
Post by: Oz girl on November 07, 2007, 05:23:50 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Oz girl""Quote from: ""Guest""Deb, I think she means the obvious, although she phrased it poorly: that programs destroy their family's money (sometimes with parents ripping it out of their college funds), destroy their education (as they aren't accredited schools, they don't even get GEDs, and they're ill-prepared for college anyway), and seriously, how much opportunity can they have after being told that they're worthless day in and day out?
Actually it could be either of these things. The point is that statistically speaking middle class kids everywhere are given more chances to grow out of their vices or in the rare cases that it is necessary get quality medical help. These is also more incentive to eventually straighen up anf fly right becuase the middle classes feel they have more to loose by being in legal hot water. Consequently in most cases this is exactly what happens. Kids grow out of the worst.
To give a personal example i have a friend whose younger brother was about the most hideous teenager imaginable. Eventually at about 17 and 1/2 his laywer pointed out to him that at 18 he was an adult and a judge was going to be a whole lot less lenient about the wild oats he seemed to need to sow. The kid did not straighten out over night but he did calm down a little when he realised that it was no longer cute and he stood to loose something. At 25 he is just fine. He is not a laywer or a stockbroker as his parents had once hoped but he is not drug addicted or in jail either. He has also travelled to exotic places and done a variety of jobs.
There is no doubt in my mind that if this kid lived with the right set of parents in the US he woud have been program material.
It really makes it difficult to determine which kids will grow out of it and which ones will not. There are too many stories like the one CCM told where her cousin hit bottom at age 27. This guy could have benefited from getting help in his teens. So faced with these decisions (and results like these) it is hard to just throw up our hands and say lets wait and see.... we are not a "Wait and see" society. we are doers and solvers and look for results quickly. That is why parents look for help outside when they cant solve the issues locally or within the home.
...
Once again who your ability to make assumptions is enormous. The boy's parents did not do nothing at all. They sent him to a variety of schools, paid extensive legal bills, tried a variety of methods and often fought. What they did not do was incarcerate him. there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that any hint of adoescent dificulty will make a 27 yr old addict. Just as many adults develop addiction or mental helath issues when they were completely unproblematic adolescents! There are also many more humane ways to get help for a genuinely troubled kid than locking them up without trial. But you equate not incarcerating a child with "Doing nothing" becuae you are too limited to see any other possibility
Post by: TheWho on November 07, 2007, 09:46:44 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Once again who your ability to make assumptions is enormous. The boy's parents did not do nothing at all. They sent him to a variety of schools, paid extensive legal bills, tried a variety of methods and often fought. What they did not do was incarcerate him. there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that any hint of adoescent dificulty will make a 27 yr old addict. Just as many adults develop addiction or mental helath issues when they were completely unproblematic adolescents! There are also many more humane ways to get help for a genuinely troubled kid than locking them up without trial. But you equate not incarcerating a child with "Doing nothing" becuae you are too limited to see any other possibility
I have been posting and reading for years here on fornits and am well aware of most of the options for parents and their families to help offset a childs progress into an at-risk life style. These local services are very effective and can help the entire family identify and solve many of the issues that lead kids into acting out and becoming self destructive. But there exists a small minority of children do not benefit from these local treatments and need to take the next step , other options, which may be:
1. To continue on the same path (which isn’t working)
2. Do nothing
3. Get help for your child outside the home.
You talk about kids not getting a trial. Why should there be a trial every time a child needs help. At what age should these trials start? Age 4, Age 7? When we incarcerate them into daycare. Who should represent them? Should we allow our kids to play with matches, or should be say “Noâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 10:01:04 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 10:03:37 AM
Post by: Froderik on November 07, 2007, 10:03:50 AM
This is America, Who.. a country that was supposed to be founded on freedom and justice for its citizens. Perhaps these same rights (concerning due process, at least) should be extended to children as well....?
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 10:07:05 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
thewho writes for prospective parents so I must state dont make a decision based on fear talk to real professionals and keep in mind these programs are sociopathic in nature and they will lie and steal all the while feeding your fear and telling you they have the solution....you parents have the solution take time off be with your child help them understand what hormonal changes they are going through and these effects on moods etc.. dont freak out! remember what it was like when you were growing up take resposibility for some of your misparenting and regain respect not force! a teen is contending with lots of changes as part of growing up let them make mistakes and learn from them give them space and love not yelling or force. regain respect check yourself first...these programs will try and absolve you of any wrong doing and if thats what your looking for instead of the best for your child then by all means strip them of their rights and dignity and subject them to institutionalized child abuse!
Post by: TheWho on November 07, 2007, 10:24:28 AM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
Maybe some laws should be amended to provide the right to due process for minors? Who, your somewhat salient point concerning daycare has one foible: daycare is a public facility, and programs are privately run...
This is America, Who.. a country that was supposed to be founded on freedom and justice for its citizens. Perhaps these same rights (concerning due process, at least) should be extended to children as well....?
I think in many cases they should, but where should we draw the lines? Should kids decide to go to school or not at age 7? Should parents allow the child to decide if they should or should not take their diabetes medicine? At what age should they be allowed to take control of their own medical needs? I know there is room for improvement but it just isnt black and white. Some kids at age 10 can come home from school to an empty house and do just fine and can be trusted, other kids cant be trusted to do this even at age 18, so each case is different. Who decides?
...
Post by: Froderik on November 07, 2007, 10:35:36 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 10:41:22 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 10:43:31 AM
Post by: TheWho on November 07, 2007, 10:47:07 AM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
I don't know about some of those analogies.. but it would appear that something should change in order to protect kids from ending up in horribly abusive or fatal situations.
I agree, if kids are getting abused and/or dying, that would be the first place to start. Identify the programs, get the problems fixed via regulation ( for those who feel this would stop it), shut down the schools who fail to comply or continue to put the kids in harm’s way.
Systematically clean up the industry is the right path, in my opinion. Throwing a blanket over the entire industry and saying it is evil isn’t going to go anywhere or effect any change. George Miller knows this, his panel will eventually name names and specific areas which need to be addressed and regulated. He won’t recommend to shut down the mental health field as a whole, that’s fringe group mentality, he will identify areas which need improvement and order the closure of some schools/ boot camps until specific changes occur or until they get licensed. These are the paths which may lead to improving conditions for the kids.
...
Post by: SettleForNothingLess on November 07, 2007, 10:54:40 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Froderik""I don't know about some of those analogies.. but it would appear that something should change in order to protect kids from ending up in horribly abusive or fatal situations.
I agree, if kids are getting abused and/or dying, that would be the first place to start. Identify the programs, get the problems fixed via regulation ( for those who feel this would stop it), shut down the schools who fail to comply or continue to put the kids in harm’s way.
Systematically clean up the industry is the right path, in my opinion. Throwing a blanket over the entire industry and saying it is evil isn’t going to go anywhere or effect any change. George Miller knows this, his panel will eventually name names and specific areas which need to be addressed and regulated. He won’t recommend to shut down the mental health field as a whole, that’s fringe group mentality, he will identify areas which need improvement and order the closure of some schools/ boot camps until specific changes occur or until they get licensed. These are the paths which may lead to improving conditions for the kids.
...
Even if programs a"licensed" they can still be shitpits.
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 10:57:45 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 11:00:12 AM
Post by: Froderik on November 07, 2007, 11:02:48 AM
Quote from: ""SettleForNothingLess""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Quote from: ""Froderik""I don't know about some of those analogies.. but it would appear that something should change in order to protect kids from ending up in horribly abusive or fatal situations.
I agree, if kids are getting abused and/or dying, that would be the first place to start. Identify the programs, get the problems fixed via regulation ( for those who feel this would stop it), shut down the schools who fail to comply or continue to put the kids in harm’s way.
Systematically clean up the industry is the right path, in my opinion. Throwing a blanket over the entire industry and saying it is evil isn’t going to go anywhere or effect any change. George Miller knows this, his panel will eventually name names and specific areas which need to be addressed and regulated. He won’t recommend to shut down the mental health field as a whole, that’s fringe group mentality, he will identify areas which need improvement and order the closure of some schools/ boot camps until specific changes occur or until they get licensed. These are the paths which may lead to improving conditions for the kids.
...
Even if programs a"licensed" they can still be shitpits.
Yeah in so many cases, programs' approaches are wrong (that is to say, doomed to failure in one or many aspects) from the very start....absolutely.
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
ok who keep posting on the up and up its a better you today good for you now start rescueing some of those unlawfully incarcerated institutionaly abused children still in many many many programs operating in false good standing today
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 11:06:15 AM
If so, I pity you. And your kids. Don't tell us you weren't warned.
People without real degrees should not be practicing mental health. Extrajudicial incarceration should not exist in a civilized country. But the concepts of "least restrictive environment", consent, and, well, any kind of actual ethics, all elude this asshole like so much fog.
Go back to North Korea, Who.
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 11:08:10 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Froderik""I don't know about some of those analogies.. but it would appear that something should change in order to protect kids from ending up in horribly abusive or fatal situations.
I agree, if kids are getting abused and/or dying, that would be the first place to start. Identify the programs, get the problems fixed via regulation ( for those who feel this would stop it), shut down the schools who fail to comply or continue to put the kids in harm’s way.
if if if dude institutionalized child abuse is happening right now
...
Post by: Froderik on November 07, 2007, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Quote from: ""Froderik""I don't know about some of those analogies.. but it would appear that something should change in order to protect kids from ending up in horribly abusive or fatal situations.
I agree, if kids are getting abused and/or dying, that would be the first place to start. Identify the programs, get the problems fixed via regulation ( for those who feel this would stop it), shut down the schools who fail to comply or continue to put the kids in harm’s way.
if if if dude institutionalized child abuse is happening right now
..fixed that for ya..
Post by: TheWho on November 07, 2007, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: ""SettleForNothingLess""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Quote from: ""Froderik""I don't know about some of those analogies.. but it would appear that something should change in order to protect kids from ending up in horribly abusive or fatal situations.
I agree, if kids are getting abused and/or dying, that would be the first place to start. Identify the programs, get the problems fixed via regulation ( for those who feel this would stop it), shut down the schools who fail to comply or continue to put the kids in harm’s way.
Systematically clean up the industry is the right path, in my opinion. Throwing a blanket over the entire industry and saying it is evil isn’t going to go anywhere or effect any change. George Miller knows this, his panel will eventually name names and specific areas which need to be addressed and regulated. He won’t recommend to shut down the mental health field as a whole, that’s fringe group mentality, he will identify areas which need improvement and order the closure of some schools/ boot camps until specific changes occur or until they get licensed. These are the paths which may lead to improving conditions for the kids.
...
Even if programs a"licensed" they can still be shitpits.
Agreed, that is why I am not totally bought in to this regulation will solve the problem mentality. I think it may help in some areas and make things worse in others. If people want to hurt others they are going to do it whether they are licensed or regulated... some of the regulations just might make it more difficult for them to operate.
...
Post by: Froderik on November 07, 2007, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Agreed, that is why I am not totally bought in to this regulation will solve the problem mentality. I think it may help in some areas and make things worse in others. If people want to hurt others they are going to do it whether they are licensed or regulated... some of the regulations just might make it more difficult for them to operate.
Regulation may decrease the odds of that sort of thing, but really, entirely new laws need to exist that protect the rights of children by giving them due process so as to avoid coercive and unqualified treatment.
Post by: SettleForNothingLess on November 07, 2007, 11:26:16 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""SettleForNothingLess""Quote from: ""TheWho""Quote from: ""Froderik""I don't know about some of those analogies.. but it would appear that something should change in order to protect kids from ending up in horribly abusive or fatal situations.
I agree, if kids are getting abused and/or dying, that would be the first place to start. Identify the programs, get the problems fixed via regulation ( for those who feel this would stop it), shut down the schools who fail to comply or continue to put the kids in harm’s way.
Systematically clean up the industry is the right path, in my opinion. Throwing a blanket over the entire industry and saying it is evil isn’t going to go anywhere or effect any change. George Miller knows this, his panel will eventually name names and specific areas which need to be addressed and regulated. He won’t recommend to shut down the mental health field as a whole, that’s fringe group mentality, he will identify areas which need improvement and order the closure of some schools/ boot camps until specific changes occur or until they get licensed. These are the paths which may lead to improving conditions for the kids.
...
Even if programs a"licensed" they can still be shitpits.
Agreed, that is why I am not totally bought in to this regulation will solve the problem mentality. I think it may help in some areas and make things worse in others. If people want to hurt others they are going to do it whether they are licensed or regulated... some of the regulations just might make it more difficult for them to operate.
...
i doubt it. I wont be satisfied till there all closed down. No more abuse, no more manipulation, no more taking advantage of parents and kids in crisis to make money to wipe their asses with.,
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 11:33:59 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""It really makes it difficult to determine which kids will grow out of it and which ones will not. There are too many stories like the one CCM told where her cousin hit bottom at age 27. This guy could have benefited from getting help in his teens. So faced with these decisions (and results like these) it is hard to just throw up our hands and say lets wait and see.... we are not a "Wait and see" society. we are doers and solvers and look for results quickly. [/color] That is why parents look for help outside when they cant solve the issues locally or within the home.
...
Spoken like a true Pro-Program propaganda (bullshit) spreader. You say that you looked for results quickly and that's why you did not try famil;y counseling before shipping your own daughter off to a hell hole.
I'll bet your sales pitch to parents is "It's good enough for my daughter so send your child."
It's a whole lot easier to ship a kid off and let someone else deal with them than deal with them yourself. "The easier and softer way for you." And hell it don't hurt that it puts a dollar in your pocket. I would bet you would even sell out you mother if you knew it would make you a dollar.
bump
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 07, 2007, 11:38:14 AM
Who? Care to enlighten us?
Alright, I'm taking bets on if he'll answer or not. Whaddya guys think?
:rofl:
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 07, 2007, 11:43:48 AM
http://tinyurl.com/28vgxx (http://tinyurl.com/28vgxx)
http://www.frazierhealthcare.com/pdf/aspen_092906.pdf (http://www.frazierhealthcare.com/pdf/aspen_092906.pdf)
For Immediate Release: September 29, 2006
Contact: Robert Weiner, Rebecca Vander Linde, or Richard Bangs 301-283-0821/202-329-1700
CRC HEALTH GROUP TO ACQUIRE ASPEN EDUCATION, LEADING PROVIDER OF TREATMENT TO STRUGGLING ADOLESCENTS AND YOUNG ADULTS
Cupertino, CA -- September 29, 2006 -- Dr. Barry Karlin, Chairman & CEO of CRC Health Group, the nation’s largest chemical dependency and related behavioral health organization, today announced the signing of a definitive merger agreement to acquire Aspen Education Group, the foremost provider of educational assistance to struggling young people and their families. Terms of the agreement, which is expected to close in mid-November, were not disclosed.
“The merger of these two like-minded companies will create a synergy of treatment and educational options that is unprecedented,â€
Post by: TheWho on November 07, 2007, 11:49:57 AM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Agreed, that is why I am not totally bought in to this regulation will solve the problem mentality. I think it may help in some areas and make things worse in others. If people want to hurt others they are going to do it whether they are licensed or regulated... some of the regulations just might make it more difficult for them to operate.Regulation may decrease the odds of that sort of thing, but really, entirely new laws need to exist that protect the rights of children by giving them due process so as to avoid coercive and unqualified treatment.
I agree with this, but I dont think the present court system is doing a good job today, with the present laws we give them to work within, in directing kids to safe alternatives. Many of these kids end up in abusive boot camps inwhich they do not deserve and dont help them. I wouldnt rely on our court system to help out.
If new laws were defined it may help to give children a louder voice or advocate (outside the justice system).
...
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 07, 2007, 12:56:35 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Personally, I would like Who to answer the question about his connection to Bain. I think it would clear up quite a bit.
Who? Care to enlighten us?
Alright, I'm taking bets on if he'll answer or not. Whaddya guys think?
:rofl:
Yep. Thought not.
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 01:01:37 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 07, 2007, 02:51:10 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 07, 2007, 08:32:27 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Froderik""Quote from: ""TheWho""Agreed, that is why I am not totally bought in to this regulation will solve the problem mentality. I think it may help in some areas and make things worse in others. If people want to hurt others they are going to do it whether they are licensed or regulated... some of the regulations just might make it more difficult for them to operate.Regulation may decrease the odds of that sort of thing, but really, entirely new laws need to exist that protect the rights of children by giving them due process so as to avoid coercive and unqualified treatment.
I agree with this, but I dont think the present court system is doing a good job today, with the present laws we give them to work within, in directing kids to safe alternatives. Many of these kids end up in abusive boot camps inwhich they do not deserve and dont help them. I wouldnt rely on our court system to help out.
If new laws were defined it may help to give children a louder voice or advocate (outside the justice system).
...
You know why the present court system is doing a horrible job? Because they don't know the kids they are personally dealing with. They don't deal with them day in, day out. So, the courts send them off to these boot camps, or what have you,for a paper full of offenses, not knowing what each one of them is really about!!!!! You know what I mean? But, then there is always someone saying at least it isn't the parents making this choice of wherever their kid goes.
Do you think these judges lose a wink of sleep at night dealing with the 1,000's of kids that go through their justice system? No. Parents, have a bit more of a responsibility, and are connected with their children, at least biologically so. More so then a judge.
It just so happened I ended up with two jerks as parents. One too high, and mighty letting his new wife wear the pants in the relationship. Then my poor Mother (god rest her soul)who was an emotional wreck, and a major alcoholic to boot, she couldn't even help herself, let alone me.
I think in most cases, parents will be the fairest of judges. It really is true that parents know what is best for their own children more then a legal system. For the most part. But, then there are a few of us that lets face it......got fucked!
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 08, 2007, 01:36:15 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Personally, I would like Who to answer the question about his connection to Bain. I think it would clear up quite a bit.
Who? Care to enlighten us?
Alright, I'm taking bets on if he'll answer or not. Whaddya guys think?
:rofl:
I'm still wondering about this.
Post by: Ganja on November 14, 2007, 07:34:20 AM
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""
I was never a drug addict, but I died in a program.
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
WORD
Post by: Rachael on November 14, 2007, 09:38:16 AM
Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""
I was never a drug addict, but I died in a program.
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
As did I.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 04:24:21 PM
Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""
I was never a drug addict, but I died in a program.
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
pretty much
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 04:38:08 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 04:44:52 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
That is stinking thinking, your life is what you make of it.
This cultspeak message was brought to you by your local AA program.
Remember that we have rarely seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 04:50:20 PM
Quote from: ""Bill Wilson""
Remember that we have rarely seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.
This is accurate. Fornits is testimony to this, as very few program dropouts post here.
Post by: TheWho on November 14, 2007, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Bill Wilson""
Remember that we have rarely seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.
This is accurate. Fornits is testimony to this, as very few program dropouts post here.
Ha,Ha,Ha Thats funny!! I love this place, good catch, what a classic line.
...
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 05:05:58 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
That is stinking thinking, your life is what you make of it.
That's right folks! In AA thinking = stinking! You need to shut the brain the fuck off and accept the program! YAY! Keep coming backs it will probably kill you if you work it!
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 05:11:04 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Bill Wilson""
Remember that we have rarely seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.
This is accurate. Fornits is testimony to this, as very few program dropouts post here.
UM....
Our users have posted a total of 280684 articles
We have 4647 registered users
The newest registered user is hernibs
In total there are 33 users online :: 1 Registered, 2 Hidden and 30 A voice from nowheres [ Administrator ] [ Moderator ]
Most users ever online was 461 on Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:28 pm
Oh yeah... it's a reeel fuckin ghost town.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 05:17:25 PM
Start
Stinkin' Thinkin', otherwise known as thinking negative thoughts, is a common but unhelpful pastime. Imagine all the extra energy and creativity we could muster if we weren't bogged down by thoughts of doom and gloom. Let's have a look at some of the most common forms of "Stinkin' Thinking."
• Black-and-white thinking In this form of self torture, everything is either black or white, good or bad. Common examples include: "It's really bad that we didn't get that house at auction." Yes, it might be disappointing that you couldn't afford the house, but another house will come up, and it might even be better.
Or, "Getting a dog is a bad idea. I'll ruin the garden." Of course, the puppy may ruin part of the garden initially but it will also give you years of joy.
• Overgeneralization This is a favorite among Stinkin' Thinkers. Here a single event colors the rest of your day, week, or even life. Favorite topics: "I failed the math test, I'll never get a good job now." Or "I ate half a packet of Oreos. I'm supposed to be on a diet. I'll never lose any weight. I'll be fat all my life." Gee, I could go on so easily, but you get my drift!
• Ignoring the positives No matter how bad your life is, it is possible to find at least one positive aspect to it. But Stinkin' Thinkers can't, or rather, won't. Since there are numerous examples of people coming through traumas and stating publicly that the whole experience made them stronger and that they would go through it all again to gain what they have learned, it is possible to remain positive in just about any situation. The act of counting your blessings is an old one but it hasn't lost any of its potency over the years.
• Catastrophizing Catastrophizing is all about blowing things up out of proportion, or alternatively, minimizing any good things in your life. So if your son pulls out of school early, a catastrophizing parent might say: "I've tried to do my best for him, but now he's left school, he'll never get a proper education, or a proper job and it's my fault. I should have got him a tutor. We can't afford to keep him forever, and he'll end up on the streets. You can see how easily this train of thoughts takes hold and the escalating stress levels that accompany it.
Alternatively, catastrophizers also minimize their own skills or the good in their life. That same son may be a very caring and loving young man, who gets on well with young and old alike, but all those people skills are ignored by the catastrophizer. The fact that the son loves his parents and doesn't want to move to another state is not seen as a positive, but is buried instead under the "catastrophe" that he has decided that at this point in his life, he wants to do something other than attend school.
• Wearing the "blue" glasses This is a term that refers to the act of dwelling on one negative detail about a situation, so that the entire scenario takes on a negative and depressing hue. For example, Leanne's friend is less than ecstatic when Leanne tells her the news that she is going back to her ex-boyfriend for the third time. Because Leanne's friend isn't as happy as Leanne would like her to be, Leanne becomes obsessed by this, and ultimately gets so angry with her friend that she ends the friendship. Leanne has let one incident where two friends don't agree cloud her whole opinion of the friendship to the point where she pulls the plug on it. She has effectively put on the "blue" glasses and refuses to see all the positive aspects of the friendship.
• Mind reading A favorite among Stinkin' Thinkers, Mind Reading involves assuming that people are reacting in a negative way about you without any evidence to back it up.
• Fortune telling Closely related to Mind Reading, Fortune Telling involves predicting that things will turn out badly, with no evidence to back it up other than "things always do." Of course, thinking that "things always do" is a form of Overgeneralization.
• The "Should" problem The word "should" is perhaps one best left out of your life. It is mainly used to criticize yourself and others and serves no real useful purpose. "I should have got tutoring for James, and now he's pulled out of school!" James may have pulled out of school anyway. Blaming yourself with a series of "shoulds" keeps you stuck and less likely to be useful in the present moment.
"He should have addressed his drinking problem earlier and now he's been involved in a car accident." Yes, it would have been best if the drinking problem had been addressed earlier, but it wasn't and now the present situation must be dealt with. "Shoulds" keep up locked in the past.
• Self-labeling Calling yourself an "idiot" or a "fool" or any other derogatory name not only dents your self esteem but derails you from looking more closely at the problem and finding a better way to go about it. Be kind to yourself and drop the names. Names will actually hurt you in the long term.
• Playing "Atlas" This game refers to shouldering responsibility for all the things that go wrong in your life, regardless of whether or not you are to blame. This includes being hard on yourself for getting the flu or not accepting that your divorce involved the behaviors of two people, not just you. Or you may believe you were retrenched for something you did, rather than being able to see that powers other than yourself were involved in the decision. Playing "Atlas" is certainly a hard cross to bear through life.
Finish
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 05:28:33 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I made this from another web site to show everyone I did not take these terms from Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. I am no alcoholic.
http://http://www.orange-papers.org/
Go there and learn.
Quote from: ""Orange Papers""
The individual members of the cult are told that they are inherently small, weak, stupid, ignorant, and sinful. Cult members are routinely criticized, shamed, ridiculed, discounted, diminished, and told in dozens of ways that they are not good enough.
This cult characteristic is sometimes expressed in the infantization of the cult members: They refer to the leader as "Father", while he refers to them as "my children."
Cult members are also told that they are in no way qualified to judge the Guru or his church. Should you disagree with the leader or his cult about anything, see Cult Rule Number One. Having negative emotions about the cult or its leader is a "defect" that needs to be fixed.
A corollary to this rule is the practice of lowering members' self-esteem by a variety of methods:
* Elders or higher-ranking members will berate the newer members and tell them that their work or their spirituality isn't good enough. Again, the beginners are abused by the guru and his henchmen until they reach the inner circle, at which time they can turn around and do it all to someone else who is just beginning.
* It is almost a universal cult characteristic that, in the opinion of the cult leader and other elders, newcomers cannot think correctly. They are too "new", or "unspiritual", and they haven't been members long enough, or they haven't prayed or chanted or meditated long enough, or they haven't been off of drugs and alcohol long enough, or something... It's always something.
* Members will criticize themselves and confess all of their sins and faults, sometimes engaging in public self-criticism or confession sessions. This is used by everybody from Maoist Chinese Communist groups to Christian cults.
* Sometimes other members will attack them and criticize them in "group therapy" sessions, or Synanon games.
* Members are taught not to trust their own minds or their own judgement:
o Your thinking has been corrupted by sin.
o Your judgement is no good.
o Your thinking is no good.
o Your mind is no good.
o You have a criminal mind.
o You have an alcoholic mind.
o You need a complete make-over.
o Your thinking is controlled by your addictions.
o Your thinking is controlled by your sexual desires.
o Your thinking is controlled by Satan.
o You haven't been chanting or meditating or doing yoga long enough to have a clear head.
o You haven't been off of drugs and alcohol long enough to have a clear head.
* Members are taught not to trust their own motives:
o Your motives are no good; everything you do is just for yourself.
o You are selfish, vain, egotistical, self-seeking, and always trying to get your own way.
o You are just seeking ego-gratification.
o You are lazy.
o You are always trying to do things the easier, softer way.
o You just want to get laid.
o You just want to get drunk or high.
o You just want to avoid the hard work of getting right with God.
o You just want to be happy.
* Members are taught not to feel their own feelings.
Steven Hassan wrote
Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within the individual, cult doctrine always requires that a person distrust his own self.
Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steven Hassan, 1988, page 79.
The fawning hero-worshipper and sociology professor Dr. Lewis Yablonksky praised Synanon's mind-control tactics like this:
The development which takes place is best described as a "resocialization process." The individual is, in a fashion, "brainwashed" to give up his old deviant patterns.
The Tunnel Back, Synanon, Lewis Yablonsky, page 261.
Prof. Yablonsky seems to have really gotten a kick out of watching tough old thugs beating up on the wimpy newcomers -- he just gushes with praise for their skill in tormenting the newcomers:
[etc... go there for more]
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cul ... _you_wrong (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_you_wrong)
I could care less where you get your information about AA or any 12 step based cult. If you haven't been there, you don't know.
Freedom from my past? Fuck you. My life was seriously fucked up by you freaks who convinced me I was an alcoholic when I was not. I never liked it very much and don't drink now, not out of some idiotic desire to remain "sober" (or I'll die) but because i just don't like it. My parents did not send me to program for drinking and clearly were not worried about that based on their correspondence with program which I have.
You aren't interested in freeing anybody from their past, you're interested in helping to revise people's beliefs of what happened in the past by convincing them they can't rely on their own reasoning and are sick when they probably aren't.
(http://http://www.fornits.com/docs/singerp73.jpg)
That reference is from margaret singer's cults in our midst Page 73.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 05:46:06 PM
Someone please continue...
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 05:46:35 PM
A: I know what it is.
It's your stinking thinking.
Both of the thinking patterns you describe are examples of stinking thinking, or put differently, thoughts that are so unhelpful, they stink. Another way to think of them are as SDTs or self-defeating thoughts. The two that seem to be hanging you up the most are so common I even have special names for them: Mr. Yabuts and Ms. Ifonly Ida. Let's take a closer look at each of these patterns of stinking-thinking SDTs, and then how to change them.
MR. YABUTS
Mr. Yabuts rears his ugly head when we say something like, "YEAH, I really need to do that, BUT . . ." We can easily "yeah but" ourselves into inaction _ defeated before we even start. Yeah buts are self-defeating, but they serve a self-protective function. If you can convince yourself there is no reason to even attempt to do what you want, then you no longer face the risk of trying and failing. While this can protect you, it also cripples you.
Mr. Yabuts also shows up in the business world and serves as a good example of how to change this self-defeating pattern. Many times when a solution is offered, someone who will say, "Yeah, but . . ." This is followed by all the reasons the idea will not work. A useful alternative to "yeah, but" is "yes, and . . ." followed by a realistic listing of the problems and - here's the crucial part - a reasonable plan of action to deal with them.
In our personal lives, we typically say "yeah but" when we are dreaming about something we want, get scared, and then try to talk ourselves out of pursuing our dreams. Instead of stopping ourselves with "yeah buts," we need to ask, "and what is stopping me?"
The answer is usually ourselves. The same solution applies: Make a list of the obstacles and then create a reasonable plan to effectively deal with them.
MS. IFONLY IDA
Ms. Ifonly Ida shows up as a self-defeating form of regret, as in "If only I'd have (fill in the blank), then everything would be OK."
The purpose of healthy regret is to help us learn from our mistakes, not make the same ones over and over.
By focusing on the past, Ifonly Ida robs you of your present and future. Have you ever tried to drive your car looking only through the rear-view mirror? It's a silly notion, but it's how we live our lives when we get caught up in Ifonly Ida.
When you catch yourself using this particular brand of self-defeating thinking, stop and ask yourself some better questions, such as: "What can I learn from this situation?" "What mistakes did I make that I never want to make again?" "How can I use what I've experienced and learned to live better the next time I face a similar situation?"
These questions help you do two important things with past regrets: Make a place for them because they did happen and to not acknowledge them keeps you from learning from them; and put past regret in its place, which is behind you. Then you are able to live in such a way as to create few, if any, future regrets.
One way to avoid future regrets is to ask yourself, "How will I feel about this decision tomorrow, in a year, and at the end of my life?" Learn and then live so you have as few Ifonly Idas in the future as possible.
Mr. Yabuts or Ms. Ifonly Ida are bad enough each by itself. Combine them and you've set up a vicious cycle that keeps you stuck. Get rid of one of them, and you are doing better. Get rid of both, and you're on your way.
My suggestion is to kick both out of your brain, because they are taking up lots of room and not paying any rent.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 05:50:43 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""I was never a drug addict, but I died in a program.pretty much
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
Black-and-white thinking
Overgeneralization
Ignoring the positives
Catastrophizing
This is classic Stinking Thinking! Please read what I posted, it might help. You are obviously suffering with a bad case of Stinking Thinking.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:00:50 PM
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:02:53 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""I was never a drug addict, but I died in a program.pretty much
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
Black-and-white thinking
Overgeneralization
Ignoring the positives
Catastrophizing
This is classic Stinking Thinking! Please read what I posted, it might help. You are obviously suffering with a bad case of Stinking Thinking.
Your post lacks something... a shred of science.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:04:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I made this from another web site to show everyone I did not take these terms from Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. I am no alcoholic.
http://http://www.orange-papers.org/
Go there and learn.
Quote from: ""Orange Papers""
The individual members of the cult are told that they are inherently small, weak, stupid, ignorant, and sinful. Cult members are routinely criticized, shamed, ridiculed, discounted, diminished, and told in dozens of ways that they are not good enough.
This cult characteristic is sometimes expressed in the infantization of the cult members: They refer to the leader as "Father", while he refers to them as "my children."
Cult members are also told that they are in no way qualified to judge the Guru or his church. Should you disagree with the leader or his cult about anything, see Cult Rule Number One. Having negative emotions about the cult or its leader is a "defect" that needs to be fixed.
A corollary to this rule is the practice of lowering members' self-esteem by a variety of methods:
* Elders or higher-ranking members will berate the newer members and tell them that their work or their spirituality isn't good enough. Again, the beginners are abused by the guru and his henchmen until they reach the inner circle, at which time they can turn around and do it all to someone else who is just beginning.
* It is almost a universal cult characteristic that, in the opinion of the cult leader and other elders, newcomers cannot think correctly. They are too "new", or "unspiritual", and they haven't been members long enough, or they haven't prayed or chanted or meditated long enough, or they haven't been off of drugs and alcohol long enough, or something... It's always something.
* Members will criticize themselves and confess all of their sins and faults, sometimes engaging in public self-criticism or confession sessions. This is used by everybody from Maoist Chinese Communist groups to Christian cults.
* Sometimes other members will attack them and criticize them in "group therapy" sessions, or Synanon games.
* Members are taught not to trust their own minds or their own judgement:
o Your thinking has been corrupted by sin.
o Your judgement is no good.
o Your thinking is no good.
o Your mind is no good.
o You have a criminal mind.
o You have an alcoholic mind.
o You need a complete make-over.
o Your thinking is controlled by your addictions.
o Your thinking is controlled by your sexual desires.
o Your thinking is controlled by Satan.
o You haven't been chanting or meditating or doing yoga long enough to have a clear head.
o You haven't been off of drugs and alcohol long enough to have a clear head.
* Members are taught not to trust their own motives:
o Your motives are no good; everything you do is just for yourself.
o You are selfish, vain, egotistical, self-seeking, and always trying to get your own way.
o You are just seeking ego-gratification.
o You are lazy.
o You are always trying to do things the easier, softer way.
o You just want to get laid.
o You just want to get drunk or high.
o You just want to avoid the hard work of getting right with God.
o You just want to be happy.
* Members are taught not to feel their own feelings.
Steven Hassan wrote
Since mind control depends on creating a new identity within the individual, cult doctrine always requires that a person distrust his own self.
Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steven Hassan, 1988, page 79.
The fawning hero-worshipper and sociology professor Dr. Lewis Yablonksky praised Synanon's mind-control tactics like this:
The development which takes place is best described as a "resocialization process." The individual is, in a fashion, "brainwashed" to give up his old deviant patterns.
The Tunnel Back, Synanon, Lewis Yablonsky, page 261.
Prof. Yablonsky seems to have really gotten a kick out of watching tough old thugs beating up on the wimpy newcomers -- he just gushes with praise for their skill in tormenting the newcomers:
[etc... go there for more]
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cul ... _you_wrong (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_you_wrong)
I could care less where you get your information about AA or any 12 step based cult. If you haven't been there, you don't know.
Freedom from my past? Fuck you. My life was seriously fucked up by you freaks who convinced me I was an alcoholic when I was not. I never liked it very much and don't drink now, not out of some idiotic desire to remain "sober" (or I'll die) but because i just don't like it. My parents did not send me to program for drinking and clearly were not worried about that based on their correspondence with program which I have.
You aren't interested in freeing anybody from their past, you're interested in helping to revise people's beliefs of what happened in the past by convincing them they can't rely on their own reasoning and are sick when they probably aren't.
(http://http://www.fornits.com/docs/singerp73.jpg)
That reference is from Margaret Singer's "Cults in Our Midst" Page 73 of the 1994 edition.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 06:10:34 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""I was never a drug addict, but I died in a program.pretty much
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
Black-and-white thinking
Overgeneralization
Ignoring the positives
Catastrophizing
This is classic Stinking Thinking! Please read what I posted, it might help. You are obviously suffering with a bad case of Stinking Thinking.
". . . the Strength to find truth and meaning in a world gone insane,
at a time in my life where my sanity has finally become realized.
And please Dear Lord, please grant me the wisdom to know where
to hide the bodies of those unfortunate enough to really piss me off."
-another survivor
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 06:13:25 PM
Black-and-white thinking-- Believing everyone did not need treatment. Seeing the world through only your experience.
Overgeneralization-- Everyone who disagrees with you is not a cult member.
Ignoring the positives-- you are alive and free and not addicted to drugs.
Catastrophizing-- You are making a big deal out of nothing.
Your anger is a positive sign that you are attempting to engage your repetitive Stinking Thinking behavior. You are showing progress by releasing this to me.
Post by: Botched Programming on November 14, 2007, 06:24:14 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""I was never a drug addict, but I died in a program.pretty much
:skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:
Black-and-white thinking
Overgeneralization
Ignoring the positives
Catastrophizing
This is classic Stinking Thinking! Please read what I posted, it might help. You are obviously suffering with a bad case of Stinking Thinking.
No stinking thinking is what programs drill into you. They tell you things that warp your own sense of reasoning. Take this line from chapter 1 of the NA Basic Text.
Quote from: ""NA Basic Text""
We are people in the grip of a continious and progressive illness whose ends are always the same: jails, institutions, and death.
Now you tell me how this kind of horseshit would not fuck your head up if it were drilled into you everyday of your life while you are in a program.
They want people to believe that you are going to die if you don't do what they say. This is all brainwashing drivel designed to make people subservient slaves of the program.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:25:55 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
If you were not an alcoholic why did you enter a treatment center? You harbor self directed anger stemming from your poor decision.I WAS TOLD IT WAS A BOARDING SCHOOL[/color]
Quote
Black-and-white thinking-- Believing everyone did not need treatment.I'm not the one telling a person you don't know on the internet about whether or not they have a drug or alcohol prpblem.
Quote
Seeing the world through only your experience.I came to the conclusions I did about Benchmark (and wrote about them) LONG before I ever found fornits. If it was just my experience why are the experiences of so many others on this board so similar.
Quote
Overgeneralization-- Everyone who disagrees with you is not a cult member.Fool. There are three types of AA: institutionalized AA (where they force you to go first) then outside AA which is the support structure for the belief system. Third is AlAnon where relatives and friends are indoctinated in cult ways. You see... Unlike many cults, AA reaches out and convincingly indoctrinates family and friends who end up believing and further re-enforcing the cult dogma. Furthermore, it spreads like wildfire and into the popular lingo and culture, making AA seem like the only way to treat alcoholism. The supreme court ruled it a religion, this isn't really up to debate anymore. I don't take too kindly to you shoving your beliefs down my throat and trying to tell me how to think, I was born with that capacity as was everybody if they would bother to fucking use it.
Quote
Ignoring the positives-- you are alive and free and not addicted to drugs.NOTHING. NOTHING... They tried to tell my parents to abandon me on the streets and continue to do the same today across the industry.
Catastrophizing-- You are making a big deal out of nothing.
Quote
Your anger is a positive sign that you are attempting to engage your repetitive Stinking Thinking behavior. You are showing progress by releasing this to me.
Releasing this to you? Know what. Pissing me off only makes it worse for your entire industry. Go "release" your loaded language right up your ass.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 06:27:51 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 06:30:52 PM
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 06:30:59 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Go get drunk
I'll consider it...
Post by: Botched Programming on November 14, 2007, 06:35:37 PM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
I'm with you Froderick... We'll need an on-running tab.Quote from: ""Guest""Go get drunkI'll consider it...
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 06:37:26 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""If you were not an alcoholic why did you enter a treatment center? You harbor self directed anger stemming from your poor decision.I WAS TOLD IT WAS A BOARDING SCHOOL[/color]QuoteBlack-and-white thinking-- Believing everyone did not need treatment.I'm not the one telling a person you don't know on the internet about whether or not they have a drug or alcohol prpblem.QuoteSeeing the world through only your experience.I came to the conclusions I did about Benchmark (and wrote about them) LONG before I ever found fornits. If it was just my experience why are the experiences of so many others on this board so similar.QuoteOvergeneralization-- Everyone who disagrees with you is not a cult member.Fool. There are three types of AA: institutionalized AA (where they force you to go first) then outside AA which is the support structure for the belief system. Third is AlAnon where relatives and friends are indoctinated in cult ways. You see... Unlike many cults, AA reaches out and convincingly indoctrinates family and friends who end up believing and further re-enforcing the cult dogma. Furthermore, it spreads like wildfire and into the popular lingo and culture, making AA seem like the only way to treat alcoholism. The supreme court ruled it a religion, this isn't really up to debate anymore. I don't take too kindly to you shoving your beliefs down my throat and trying to tell me how to think, I was born with that capacity as was everybody if they would bother to fucking use it.QuoteIgnoring the positives-- you are alive and free and not addicted to drugs.NOTHING. NOTHING... They tried to tell my parents to abandon me on the streets.
Catastrophizing-- You are making a big deal out of nothing.QuoteYour anger is a positive sign that you are attempting to engage your repetitive Stinking Thinking behavior. You are showing progress by releasing this to me.Releasing this to you? Know what. Pissing me off only makes it worse for your entire industry. Go "release" your loaded language right up your ass.
The treatment center you chose was not as advertised, why stay? Parents are within their right to force adult children to leave the home. This is not known as abandonment. I think your parents attempted to help you gain your independence, which you were reluctant to do on your own. In time, as you mature I hope you realize this.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 06:38:58 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Quote from: ""Froderik""I'm with you Froderick... We'll need an on-running tab.Quote from: ""Guest""Go get drunkI'll consider it...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 06:40:07 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
PROTIP: This is a troll in the traditional sense of the word.
Yep, I'll betcha..
This ought to be good.... :rofl:
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
If you disagree with what you were taught, then great. Why spend so much of your life whining about it now? Go get drunk, nobody is forcing you to stay sober or go to meetings anymore.I don't like to drink. It intoxicates me and I like to have a clear mind. I'm "whining" because it's still going on, not because of anything that happened to me in the past (but if you remind me of it, I might just get a tiny bit pissed off).
And the only reason I might ever attend an AA meeting might be to hand out copies of the Orange Papers.
Post by: Botched Programming on November 14, 2007, 06:44:46 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
And the only reason I might ever attend an AA meeting might be to hand out copies of the Orange Papers.
Hey Psy.... I need to follow your lead and drop some copies off at the local NA Clubhouse. ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 06:46:16 PM
I think it's time for Psy to get honest.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:50:22 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
The treatment center you chose was not as advertised, why stay?didn't I already answer this question when I explained how I was kept there. They took my identification money property, etc... any ability to leave in an area where it is not feasible to get off the ground with nothing.
Quote
Parents are within their right to force adult children to leave the home. This is not known as abandonment. I think your parents attempted to help you gain your independence, which you were reluctant to do on your own. In time, as you mature I hope you realize this.MY PARENTS SENT ME TO PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY FOUND OUT I AM BI not becuase anything wrong with me or anything I did. I WAS independent until they PULLED MY VISA to threaten me with either "boarding school" or deportation to the states with no resources. Keep in mind also that I knew NOBODY in the United States who might have been able to help me out, especially on the west coast and my parents would not talk to me through program. They kept holding a carrot on a stick of graduation to keep us running around in circles when they really had no intention of ever letting us graduate, much less helping us. I only saw 3 people "graduate" while I was there (out of more than a hundred going through program). What part of the word "cult" do you not understand. GO click on "cults in our midst" by Margaret Singer on the feed your head links above and READ A BOOK before spouting off at the mouth and making yourself seem like an idiot.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 06:52:33 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
I don't like to drink. It intoxicates me and I like to have a clear mind. I'm "whining" because it's still going on, not because of anything that happened to me in the past (but if you remind me of it, I might just get a tiny bit pissed off).
Then why did you enter a treatment facility? What is still going on, adults refusing to stand up to their parents are being pressured into unnecessary treatment? Oh, the horror. Ha.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:54:16 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I don't believe Psy was fooled by a treatment center claiming it was a boarding school. He reviewed the brochures and is lying about this. Treatment centers do not lie to adults to get them to enroll.Yes they do. You want my sworn statement or you want to talk to my parents?
Quote
Eighteen year old have finished high school and would question the idea of a boarding school when they would be thinking about college.did you not read I was home schooled and behind a half year?
Quote
I think it's time for Psy to get honest.
Fuck you. I'll testify in court to what happened, so will others, and I you have no idea how much the suggestion to be honest when I ALREADY AM infuriates me (bad for your whole cult).
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 06:56:58 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Your anger is a positive sign that you are attempting to engage your repetitive Stinking Thinking behavior. You are showing progress by releasing this to me.
Ugh. I hope you realize when you "analyze" people in this fashion you just come off as really crazy.
With that said, in my opinion, AA isn’t a cult. Yeah, it has cult elements, but having elements does not a cult make…sorta like taking drugs does not make you a drug addict.
I don’t know. REAL drug addiction is a scary, terrible, and rare thing. It’s hard to say what the right approach is. I think there have been actual scientifically valid studies that show that AA does some good? Am I correct in that?
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 06:58:54 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Quote from: ""psy""And the only reason I might ever attend an AA meeting might be to hand out copies of the Orange Papers.
Hey Psy.... I need to follow your lead and drop some copies off at the local NA Clubhouse. ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
LOL... Good idea. One thing did already do was to put of select articles from the orange papers next to the AA ads on the bulletin boards at school. I think I'm probably going to raid one of their meetings sometime (or pick up chicks... good place to do it :wink:).
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:02:57 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""The treatment center you chose was not as advertised, why stay?didn't I already answer this question when I explained how I was kept there. They took my identification money property, etc... any ability to leave in an area where it is not feasible to get off the ground with nothing.QuoteParents are within their right to force adult children to leave the home. This is not known as abandonment. I think your parents attempted to help you gain your independence, which you were reluctant to do on your own. In time, as you mature I hope you realize this.MY PARENTS SENT ME TO PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY FOUND OUT I AM BI not becuase anything wrong with me or anything I did. I WAS independent until they PULLED MY VISA to threaten me with either "boarding school" or deportation to the states with no resources. Keep in mind also that I knew NOBODY in the United States who might have been able to help me out, especially on the west coast and my parents would not talk to me through program. They kept holding a carrot on a stick of graduation to keep us running around in circles when they really had no intention of ever letting us graduate, much less helping us. I only saw 3 people "graduate" while I was there (out of more than a hundred going through program). What part of the word "cult" do you not understand. GO click on "cults in our midst" by Margaret Singer on the feed your head links above and READ A BOOK before spouting off at the mouth and making yourself seem like an idiot.
You could of left at any time but were frightened. It is okay to be scared. Most 18 year olds face the same challenges and supercede them. Your parents pressured you, but could not force you. You made the decision on your own. You must stop blaming others for your decision to enter and stay at a treatment facility.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 07:03:14 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I think there have been actual scientifically valid studies that show that AA does some good? Am I correct in that?
Not really.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html)
When I said "Keep coming back, it will probably kill you if you work it" I wasn't at all kidding.
There are other options for addicts and alcoholics who want voluntary recovery solutions. Maia Szalavitz wrote a Book on Recovery options and some more are listed on the Orange Papers.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Your anger is a positive sign that you are attempting to engage your repetitive Stinking Thinking behavior. You are showing progress by releasing this to me.
Ugh. I hope you realize when you "analyze" people in this fashion you just come off as really crazy.
With that said, in my opinion, AA isn’t a cult. Yeah, it has cult elements, but having elements does not a cult make…sorta like taking drugs does not make you a drug addict.
I would have to agree on both points, especially about our "stinkin' thinkin'" poster.
Didn't "Stuart Smalley" goof on that saying in an SNL sketch? Haha.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:08:01 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""I don't believe Psy was fooled by a treatment center claiming it was a boarding school. He reviewed the brochures and is lying about this. Treatment centers do not lie to adults to get them to enroll.Yes they do. You want my sworn statement or you want to talk to my parents?QuoteEighteen year old have finished high school and would question the idea of a boarding school when they would be thinking about college.did you not read I was home schooled and behind a half year?QuoteI think it's time for Psy to get honest.Fuck you. I'll testify in court to what happened, so will others, and I you have no idea how much the suggestion to be honest when I ALREADY AM infuriates me (bad for your whole cult).
I was wondering if you were home schooled. That is why you were so frightened and reluctant to take the steps necessary to gain your emancipation. What you viewed as independence while living with your parents, was acutally dependence. When your parents attempted to help you gain independence, you recoiled into the womb.
Your anger does not hurt me, it only hurts you. It's time to let it go.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 07:08:31 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You could of left at any time but were frightened. It is okay to be scared. Most 18 year olds face the same challenges and supercede them. Your parents pressured you, but could not force you. You made the decision on your own. You must stop blaming others for your decision to enter and stay at a treatment facility.
Man you're pretty good at this trolling thing, I gotta say.
But anyway.. you know damn well that programs are not above kidnapping people over 18 or holding them against their will..
Have I pissed on your fire enough...?
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:10:55 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
I think I'm probably going to raid one of their meetings sometime (or pick up chicks... good place to do it :wink:).
If you are a creep.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 07:13:26 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""I think I'm probably going to raid one of their meetings sometime (or pick up chicks... good place to do it :wink:).
If you are a creep.
Or just wants to get laid..?
I dunno...never been to an AA meeting.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You could of left at any time but were frightened.Sure I could leave the property any time but I sure as hell woudn't be leaving redlands with no money. A big cage is still a cage. I was frightened too, i'll admit (since they told me i would die without program), but if there was a viable way to get out, i would have taken it if I could. Shit... I collapsed of heat exhaustion after walking 25 miles in the summer California desert (near the path near San Bernadino airport. Want to see the ambulance bills? Point is, I didn't make it, and had to beg the hospital to transport me back to my motel I was in since I didn't want to walk back with my feet as bad as they were at the time (did I mention i walked the whole way with an untreated fungus on my feet that kept me limping. I should have taken a picture for you.) I can show you the letter (sent after a visit) where my parents noted that i walked with a limp.
Quote
It is okay to be scared. Most 18 year olds face the same challenges and supercede them. Your parents pressured you, but could not force you. You made the decision on your own. You must stop blaming others for your decision to enter and stay at a treatment facility.bla bla bla.
Post by: Botched Programming on November 14, 2007, 07:16:23 PM
(http://http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/chisholm_cj/stuart1.jpg)
Quote from: ""Stuart Smalley""
(1) I want you to look in that mirror, and I want you to repeat after me: "I am a worthy human being."
(2) I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and dog-gone it, people like me.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 07:17:53 PM
Quote from: ""Botched Programming""
Here is what your average program pumps out the front door calling them successful graduates.
(http://http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/chisholm_cj/stuart1.jpg)Quote from: ""Stuart Smalley""(1) I want you to look in that mirror, and I want you to repeat after me: "I am a worthy human being."
(2) I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and dog-gone it, people like me.
:rofl: :tup:
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:18:03 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""You could of left at any time but were frightened.Sure I could leave the property any time but I sure as hell woudn't be leaving redlands with no money. A big cage is still a cage. I was frightened too, i'll admit (since they told me i would die without program), but if there was a viable way to get out, i would have taken it if I could. Shit... I collapsed of heat exhaustion after walking 25 miles in the summer California desert (near the path near San Bernadino airport. Want to see the ambulance bills? Point is, I didn't make it, and had to beg the hospital to transport me back to my motel I was in since I didn't want to walk back with my feet as bad as they were at the time (did I mention i walked the whole way with an untreated fungus on my feet that kept me limping. I should have taken a picture for you.) I can show you the letter (sent after a visit) where my parents noted that i walked with a limp.QuoteIt is okay to be scared. Most 18 year olds face the same challenges and supercede them. Your parents pressured you, but could not force you. You made the decision on your own. You must stop blaming others for your decision to enter and stay at a treatment facility.bla bla bla.
You are over dramatizing the day to day efforts each one of us go through living as free adults. Many of us had harships, and continue to have them. You were free to leave, but the city of Redlands scared you and you went back. Being home schooled I can understand this completely. You are blaming everything that went wrong on other people. This is your big mistake that only maturity can correct.
Take a year long break from this web site, it will clear your head.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 07:20:47 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You are over dramatizing the day to day efforts each one of us go through living as free adults. Many of us had harships, and continue to have them. You were free to leave, but the city of Redlands scared you and you went back. Being home schooled I can understand this completely. You are blaming everything that went wrong on other people. This is your big mistake that only maturity can correct.
Take a year long break from this web site, it will clear your head.
I wouldn't waste any more time with this "voice from nowhere" if I were you, psy...
Post by: Rachael on November 14, 2007, 07:22:40 PM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
I wouldn't waste any more time on this "voice from nowhere" if I were you, psy...
+1
Yeah, don't let the trolls get you down.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Fighting this industry IS me letting go. I AM letting go of the last shreds of bullshit you people instilled in me, regaining my confidence, and rediscovering who I was.Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""I don't believe Psy was fooled by a treatment center claiming it was a boarding school. He reviewed the brochures and is lying about this. Treatment centers do not lie to adults to get them to enroll.Yes they do. You want my sworn statement or you want to talk to my parents?QuoteEighteen year old have finished high school and would question the idea of a boarding school when they would be thinking about college.did you not read I was home schooled and behind a half year?QuoteI think it's time for Psy to get honest.Fuck you. I'll testify in court to what happened, so will others, and I you have no idea how much the suggestion to be honest when I ALREADY AM infuriates me (bad for your whole cult).
I was wondering if you were home schooled. That is why you were so frightened and reluctant to take the steps necessary to gain your emancipation.QuoteReluctant??!?!? You know nothing at ALL about me. All i've ever wanted was my freedom... that's all. Just that.QuoteWhat you viewed as independence while living with your parents,I WASN'T LIVING WITH THEM
I really wanted very little to do with them at all. I was living in Ireland. I was threatened with deportation and a "boarding school" didn't seem all that bad at the time.Quotewas acutally dependence. When your parents attempted to help you gain independence, you recoiled into the womb.
Your anger does not hurt me, it only hurts you. It's time to let it go.
What I will NOT do is become apathetic, forget about what they did and become apathetic enough to ignore the fact that it is still happening.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:31:54 PM
Is psy the leader of the miserables? That's my new name for this web site, cauldron of the miserables. Ha.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 14, 2007, 07:33:20 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:33:29 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""I think there have been actual scientifically valid studies that show that AA does some good? Am I correct in that?
Not really.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html)
When I said "Keep coming back, it will probably kill you if you work it" I wasn't at all kidding.
There are other options for addicts and alcoholics who want voluntary recovery solutions. Maia Szalavitz wrote a Book on Recovery options and some more are listed on the Orange Papers.
hmm.. I must say, though, I don’t trust Miiaia She writes that the parents who put their kids away are just "decent" but "scared", usually, and I think most of these parents cannot be considered decent. She also wrote about a "treatment" program that is "evidence based" that helps kids that were involved in violent crime as part her summation of alternative treatments, which misrepresents the kids who are locked away in programs.
Further, the "treatment" involved reenacting crimes in a way that was supposed to make the kid feel empathy for their victim...and it was done in a group setting, with other kids giving feed back, it makes me wary...
But, huh, no evidence showing that aa works, that’s pretty funny..I’ll read those links later. Intuitively, (not that means much) I feel that aa can work, just because it provides people who are rudderless a way to anchor themselves socially, to have a supportive social network from which they don’t have to hide their issues, and can sort of give them hope..Also, some of their ideas about thought problems (stinking thinking) when not misused, sound on target. Stinking think sounds a lot like depressive thinking. But I’ve read how individual aa sects get unhealthy…and that seems like a probable complication, given how its run.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Reluctant??!?!? You know nothing at ALL about me. All i've ever wanted was my freedom... that's all. Just that.QuoteWhat you viewed as independence while living with your parents,
I WASN'T LIVING WITH THEM
I really wanted very little to do with them at all. I was living in Ireland. I was threatened with deportation and a "boarding school" didn't seem all that bad at the time.Quotewas acutally dependence. When your parents attempted to help you gain independence, you recoiled into the womb.Fighting this industry IS me letting go. I AM letting go of the last shreds of bullshit you people instilled in me, regaining my confidence, and rediscovering who I was.
Your anger does not hurt me, it only hurts you. It's time to let it go.
What I will NOT do is become apathetic, forget about what they did and become apathetic enough to ignore the fact that it is still happening.
You have lived a privelaged life. Your parents were attempting to help you gain independence by letting you choose to live your own life. Instead you chose the easy option, and were unsatisfied with the results of your decision. Nobody can instill in you what you do not willingly accept.
I understand your anger, but it is only misdirected self hate. It is time to set yourself free Psy.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 07:40:01 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You are over dramatizing the day to day efforts each one of us go through living as free adults. Many of us had harships, and continue to have them. You were free to leave, but the city of Redlands scared youIt would scare you too if you had no money, no identification, no property, food or water and there was no homeless shelter anywhere nearby. And it's November and it cold at night etc... You try it sometime. Plus they told me I wouldn't succeed on my own and needed the program, I believed them and they made it seem like the program would work if you worked it. All I wanted was independence and they made it seem like they were the only way to accomplish that.
Quote
and you went back. Being home schooled I can understand this completely.I truly doubt you were homeschooled. If you were I can't relate. I wanted nothing more to be free and independent, living on my own and earning a living. If they had allowed me to do that I probably wouldn't be here but they had no intention of it.
Also, there were minors there and there were court ordered kids who really did have no choice about staying. Like I said, it's not really about me, but what happened to everybody else that was usually quite a bit worse (not that my stay was a picnic).
Quote
You are blaming everything that went wrong on other people. This is your big mistake that only maturity can correct.
Take a year long break from this web site, it will clear your head.
Stop going to meetings and read a book. It might clear your head.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 14, 2007, 07:44:39 PM
Everything else is secondary...
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:45:45 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""You are over dramatizing the day to day efforts each one of us go through living as free adults. Many of us had harships, and continue to have them. You were free to leave, but the city of Redlands scared youIt would scare you too if you had no money, no identification, no property, food or water and there was no homeless shelter anywhere nearby. And it's November and it cold at night etc... You try it sometime. Plus they told me I wouldn't succeed on my own and needed the program, I believed them and they made it seem like the program would work if you worked it. All I wanted was independence and they made it seem like they were the only way to accomplish that.Quoteand you went back. Being home schooled I can understand this completely.I truly doubt you were homeschooled. If you were I can't relate. I wanted nothing more to be free and independent, living on my own and earning a living. If they had allowed me to do that I probably wouldn't be here but they had no intention of it.QuoteYou are blaming everything that went wrong on other people. This is your big mistake that only maturity can correct.Stop going to meetings and read a book. It might clear your head.
Take a year long break from this web site, it will clear your head.
I have been through situations much worse than you describe,many times throughout my life. You will experience worse situations as you mature most likely. I was not home schooled. I can understand why you were so frightened to be on your own, since you were home schooled though. If you wanted nothing more than freedom, you would have done it. Now you blame everyone else but yourself for not doing it. This is classic stinking thinking.
How long have you been out of treatment? How long have you been sober?
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 07:46:26 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I can only assume these are more supposed victims of "the industry"Not "supposed," at least in my case.
Quote
Misery loves company. That is why they react so passionately when I am trying to set another one of them free.Jesus....is that you...? . :roll:
Quote
That's my new name for this web site, cauldron of the miserables. Ha.
You sure sound like some asshole parent...
Post by: Botched Programming on November 14, 2007, 07:47:12 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Is psy the leader of the miserables?.
We must bow and worship Psy as he is the "God" of Fornits.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:50:11 PM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
Quote from: ""idiot""You have lived a privelaged life.And try learning how to spell.... ::seg::
Thank you for pointing out my mistake. You have helped me today.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:51:08 PM
Quote from: ""Eliscu2""
Quote from: ""Guest""I can only assume these are more supposed victims of "the industry". Misery loves company. That is why they react so passionately when I am trying to set another one of them free.
Is psy the leader of the miserables? That's my new name for this web site, cauldron of the miserables. Ha.
Why is it every time you open your mouth you sound less intelligent?
les Miserables is one musical theatre work that's only half bad...you know what the "miserable" do to their oppressors at the end, right?
You can’t stop the inevitable. You know you torture kids, I know it…Inside the concentration camps, you can kid yourself that your treating vermin not entitled to human rights or decency, but deep down, you know the truth. That’s why isolation and secrecy is your primary objective. You know that in the real world, only the most bigoted will want anything other than your head, after knowing what you do to the helpless minorities under your boot
Post by: Che Gookin on November 14, 2007, 07:51:33 PM
ok.. I'm just ripping on Psy.. but the point still stands.. He does have a life outside of all of this as we all do. We just tend to only know of this aspect about each other.
Not that i want to know much about most of you lunatics and likewise I'll keep spreading bullshit rumors about me as I don't think many of you need to know to much about me either.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You have lived a privelaged life. Your parents were attempting to help you gain independence by letting you choose to live your own life.:rofl:
Quote
Instead you chose the easy option
Boarding School or streets? What would you choose? I had been in boarding school before and liked it. If I had actually been sent to a boarding school I wouldn't be angry. I didn't feel the need to check much out since I could have never imagined such places even existed. I was naive.
Quote
and were unsatisfied with the results of your decision.I think you mean fradulent misrepresentation, false advertising and abuse. You want my sworn statement?
Quote
Nobody can instill in you what you do not willingly accept.research, not to mention personal experience has taught me otherwise. Under normal circumstances, you're right, but not in a cult. If you don't understand how a cult operates, research it.
Quote
I understand your anger, but it is only misdirected self hate. It is time to set yourself free Psy.
:rofl: You do realize your bullshit will only work if my life is a mess, and it's not... so you can just kiss my ass. Go push your steps somewhere where the populace hasn't already realized what a crock your "treatment" is.
Do you normally analyze strangers, pass judgement and pop-psychoanalyze them. I do not hate myself, I hate people like you who try to convince people they are sick. No, i think the direction the hate is pointed is quite appropriate.
I am free in a way you will likely never be.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 07:55:33 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Eliscu2""les Miserables is one musical theatre work that's only half bad...you know what the "miserable" do to their oppressors at the end, right?Quote from: ""Guest""I can only assume these are more supposed victims of "the industry". Misery loves company. That is why they react so passionately when I am trying to set another one of them free.
Is psy the leader of the miserables? That's my new name for this web site, cauldron of the miserables. Ha.
Why is it every time you open your mouth you sound less intelligent?
You can’t stop the inevitable. You know you torture kids, I know it…Inside the concentration camps, you can kid yourself that your treating vermin not entitled to human rights or decency, but deep down, you know the truth. That’s why isolation and secrecy is your primary objective. You know that in the real world, only the most bigoted will want anything other than your head, after knowing what you do to the helpless minorities under your boot
Last time I was in Europe I toured the concentration camps. I have been to treatment centers to visit family, and comparing the two is intellectually dishonest. Why do you bring up minorities? Only rich kids get sent to private programs, they are almost exclusively white. You sound like you might be crazy and need treatment yourself.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on November 14, 2007, 07:56:37 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:00:52 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""You have lived a privelaged life. Your parents were attempting to help you gain independence by letting you choose to live your own life.:rofl:QuoteInstead you chose the easy optionQuoteand were unsatisfied with the results of your decision.I think you mean fradulent misrepresentation, false advertising and abuse. You want my sworn statement?QuoteNobody can instill in you what you do not willingly accept.research, not to mention personal experience has taught me otherwise. Under normal circumstances, you're right, but not in a cult. If you don't understand how a cult operates, research it.QuoteI understand your anger, but it is only misdirected self hate. It is time to set yourself free Psy.:rofl: You do realize your bullshit will only work if my life is a mess, and it's not... so you can just kiss my ass. Go push your steps somewhere where the populace hasn't already realized what a crock your "treatment" is.
Do you normally analyze strangers, pass judgement and pop-psychoanalyze them. I do not hate myself, I hate people like you who try to convince people they are sick. No, i think the direction the hate is pointed is quite appropriate?
I am free in a way you will likely never be.
You are not sick. You are not an addict. You are not an alcoholic. You are a young man who listened to his parents when he should of said no. That was your chance to emancipate yourself, and you chose not to. I do not wear my negative life experiences on my sleeve. I suck it up, take my lessons from it, and move on. I do not want to enroll you in my treatment center. You don't need it, and it sounds like you never did. The only thing wrong with you is engaging in Stinking Thinking. This website promotes people to remain in Stinking Thinking Land for their entire life. I do not need our sworn statement to know you are angry about your choies. It's time to move on and set yourself free.
I am only trying to help. Like during your treatment, you have the option of taking in what I say or dismissing it. I hope you have learned something today. I know you can overcome this demon Psy.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 08:07:34 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
If you wanted nothing more than freedom, you would have done it. Now you blame everyone else but yourself for not doing it. This is classic stinking thinking.Right. Becuase I control everything that happens to me in my life. I am responsible for everything right? Even getting conned. I wanted that right?
Quote
How long have you been out of treatment? How long have you been sober?
Well. Let's see. I had a beer at my friends house a few weeks ago (OMG ! HOLY FUCK !!! A RELAPSE FOR A DISEASE I DON'T EVEN HAVE).
Let me make it very very clear. If i could go back in time and run Bill Wilson over with a truck repeatedly, i would do it as a service to humanity. God damn cult leaders spawn a whole mess when they die.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:13:15 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""If you wanted nothing more than freedom, you would have done it. Now you blame everyone else but yourself for not doing it. This is classic stinking thinking.Right. Becuase I control everything that happens to me in my life. I am responsible for everything right? Even getting conned. I wanted that right?QuoteHow long have you been out of treatment? How long have you been sober?Well. Let's see. I had a beer at my friends house a few weeks ago (OMG ! HOLY FUCK !!! A RELAPSE FOR A DISEASE I DON'T EVEN HAVE).
Let me make it very very clear. If i could go back in time and run Bill Wilson over with a truck repeatedly, i would do it as a service to humanity. God damn cult leaders spawn a whole mess when they die.
You are responsible for your decisions and the results of those decisions. Be them bad or good. We are only victims of our own bad decisions. Once we realize this, we live an empowered life, in full control. What are you psy, a victim of the cruel world, or a young man who made a bad decision? I made plenty of bad decisions, worse than yours, it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's how we learn, it's life.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 08:22:04 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
And what? End up on the streets of DC with nothing. Sure. I probably could have made it but Benchmark was advertised to me as a BOARDING SCHOOL. If I had known, or my parents had known, that it was some sort of treatment centre I would NEVER HAVE GONE. It sounded like a good idea.Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""You have lived a privelaged life. Your parents were attempting to help you gain independence by letting you choose to live your own life.:rofl:QuoteInstead you chose the easy optionQuoteand were unsatisfied with the results of your decision.I think you mean fradulent misrepresentation, false advertising and abuse. You want my sworn statement?QuoteNobody can instill in you what you do not willingly accept.research, not to mention personal experience has taught me otherwise. Under normal circumstances, you're right, but not in a cult. If you don't understand how a cult operates, research it.QuoteI understand your anger, but it is only misdirected self hate. It is time to set yourself free Psy.:rofl: You do realize your bullshit will only work if my life is a mess, and it's not... so you can just kiss my ass. Go push your steps somewhere where the populace hasn't already realized what a crock your "treatment" is.
Do you normally analyze strangers, pass judgement and pop-psychoanalyze them. I do not hate myself, I hate people like you who try to convince people they are sick. No, i think the direction the hate is pointed is quite appropriate?
I am free in a way you will likely never be.
You are not sick. You are not an addict. You are not an alcoholic. You are a young man who listened to his parents when he should of said no.
Quote
That was your chance to emancipate yourself, and you chose not to.I tried to. I got threatened with deportation. I had no fucking choice. I left a girlfriend who I loved and a lot of good friends.
Quote
I do not wear my negative life experiences on my sleeve. I suck it up, take my lessons from it, and move on. I do not want to enroll you in my treatment center.LOL. No.. you don't want me in your treatment centre. I would excercise my right to free speech and you would most certainly find that unacceptable. Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
Quote
You don't need it, and it sounds like you never did.NO FUCKING SHIT!
Quote
The only thing wrong with you is engaging in Stinking Thinking.LOL... I still get a kick out of that euphemism.
Quote
This website promotes people to remain in Stinking Thinking Land for their entire life. I do not need our sworn statement to know you are angry about your choies. It's time to move on and set yourself free.Choice? You didn't progress if you didn't "work the program" and that meant accepting another belief system. Sure you could "dismiss it" but you wouldn't go anywhere. What choice is that. like I said.. unreasonable alternative to produce an illusion of choice.
I am only trying to help. Like during your treatment, you have the option of taking in what I say or dismissing it.
Quote
I hope you have learned something today. I know you can overcome this demon Psy.LOL...you're a complete and utter tool. I pity you. You wouldn't happen to work at Teen Challenge would you? I met some tard like you the other day in a class at my college. Probably would get a red card for my speech today, but you know what... Constitutions a bitch.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:22:10 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Boarding School or streets? What would you choose? I had been in boarding school before and liked it. If I had actually been sent to a boarding school I wouldn't be angry. I didn't feel the need to check much out since I could have never imagined such places even existed. I was naive.
Listen to the language, this is Stinking Thinking, to the letter.
Doesn't this sound better? I am taking personal responsibility for my choices in this statement instead of blaming others. Pay careful attention to the changes I have made.
Boarding School or leaving home at 18 getting a job and enjoying my freedom? What would you choose? I had been in boarding school before and liked it. If I had not chosen to remain in treatment, I wouldn't be angry. I chose not to check it out.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:23:33 PM
while you have the power to make the wrong or right decisions, never should you be sent away and expect that others can fix the problem.
*learning this everyday that this industry is taking advantage of scared parents who ONLY want the best for their beloved child*
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:30:08 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""And what? End up on the streets of DC with nothing. Sure. I probably could have made it but Benchmark was advertised to me as a BOARDING SCHOOL. If I had known, or my parents had known, that it was some sort of treatment centre I would NEVER HAVE GONE. It sounded like a good idea.Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""You have lived a privelaged life. Your parents were attempting to help you gain independence by letting you choose to live your own life.:rofl:QuoteInstead you chose the easy optionQuoteand were unsatisfied with the results of your decision.I think you mean fradulent misrepresentation, false advertising and abuse. You want my sworn statement?QuoteNobody can instill in you what you do not willingly accept.research, not to mention personal experience has taught me otherwise. Under normal circumstances, you're right, but not in a cult. If you don't understand how a cult operates, research it.QuoteI understand your anger, but it is only misdirected self hate. It is time to set yourself free Psy.:rofl: You do realize your bullshit will only work if my life is a mess, and it's not... so you can just kiss my ass. Go push your steps somewhere where the populace hasn't already realized what a crock your "treatment" is.
Do you normally analyze strangers, pass judgement and pop-psychoanalyze them. I do not hate myself, I hate people like you who try to convince people they are sick. No, i think the direction the hate is pointed is quite appropriate?
I am free in a way you will likely never be.
You are not sick. You are not an addict. You are not an alcoholic. You are a young man who listened to his parents when he should of said no.QuoteThat was your chance to emancipate yourself, and you chose not to.I tried to. I got threatened with deportation. I had no fucking choice. I left a girlfriend who I loved and a lot of good friends.QuoteI do not wear my negative life experiences on my sleeve. I suck it up, take my lessons from it, and move on. I do not want to enroll you in my treatment center.LOL. No.. you don't want me in your treatment centre. I would excercise my right to free speech and you would most certainly find that unacceptable. Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).QuoteYou don't need it, and it sounds like you never did.NO FUCKING SHIT!QuoteThe only thing wrong with you is engaging in Stinking Thinking.LOL... I still get a kick out of that euphemism.QuoteThis website promotes people to remain in Stinking Thinking Land for their entire life. I do not need our sworn statement to know you are angry about your choies. It's time to move on and set yourself free.Choice? You didn't progress if you didn't "work the program" and that meant accepting another belief system. Sure you could "dismiss it" but you wouldn't go anywhere. What choice is that. like I said.. unreasonable alternative to produce an illusion of choice.
I am only trying to help. Like during your treatment, you have the option of taking in what I say or dismissing it.QuoteI hope you have learned something today. I know you can overcome this demon Psy.LOL...you're a complete and utter tool. I pity you. You wouldn't happen to work at Teen Challenge would you? I met some tard like you the other day in a class at my college. Probably would get a red card for my speech today, but you know what... Constitutions a bitch.
You were Eighteen. You could of done any number of things young adults do when faced with that very situation. It is not an abusive act to ask an Eighteen year old to care for themselves if the parents do not agree with their lifestyle choices. You are stuck in a black and white thinking pattern. Your think your choices were limited to the streets or a treatment center. That's what happens when you suffer from Stinking Thinking.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 08:37:29 PM
::lala:: ::lala:: ::lala:: ::lala:: ::lala:: ::lala::
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
LOL. No.. you don't want me in your treatment centre. I would excercise my right to free speech and you would most certainly find that unacceptable. Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
I cannot forecably abduct you and treat you. As an adult, you would have to sign yourself in, and then could leave at any time. I could not keep your identification, because as an adult, you own it and it would be illegal for me to keep it. You could call the police and have them retrieve your property from me if I decided to steal it from you. If you were disruptive to my treatment center, you would be asked to leave. Some people in treatment really need it, it's a life or death situation for them. I am surprised you have resorted to death threats. You seem like a reasonable young man. I think you are just fantasizing about what you wish you had done last time you were in treatment. Similar to young boys playing with guns and candy cigarettes to make them feel more grown up and manly.
Nobody can abduct you for treatment, this is another fantasy of yours and the death theats are unnecessary. You signed yourself in, don't forget that Psy. You are only a victim of your own bad decisions.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 08:44:27 PM
Quote
You are responsible for your decisions and the results of those decisions. Be them bad or good. We are only victims of our own bad decisions. Once we realize this, we live an empowered life, in full control.
I am not god, and certainly neither are you. Unexpected things happen and people get tricked. Are the jews responsible for their deaths?
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:46:51 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""Eliscu2""les Miserables is one musical theatre work that's only half bad...you know what the "miserable" do to their oppressors at the end, right?Quote from: ""Guest""I can only assume these are more supposed victims of "the industry". Misery loves company. That is why they react so passionately when I am trying to set another one of them free.
Is psy the leader of the miserables? That's my new name for this web site, cauldron of the miserables. Ha.
Why is it every time you open your mouth you sound less intelligent?
You can’t stop the inevitable. You know you torture kids, I know it…Inside the concentration camps, you can kid yourself that your treating vermin not entitled to human rights or decency, but deep down, you know the truth. That’s why isolation and secrecy is your primary objective. You know that in the real world, only the most bigoted will want anything other than your head, after knowing what you do to the helpless minorities under your boot
Last time I was in Europe I toured the concentration camps. I have been to treatment centers to visit family, and comparing the two is intellectually dishonest. Why do you bring up minorities? Only rich kids get sent to private programs, they are almost exclusively white. You sound like you might be crazy and need treatment yourself.
Why don't you google "intellectually dishonest" you’re using the term incorrectly. I think you might be evil and need prison yourself.
Concentration camps-
People imprisoned without due process and tortured--often to death
Programs
Ditto
Concentration camps-
Peoples’ “mental stateâ€
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 08:51:57 PM
Quote
You were Eighteen. You could of done any number of things young adults do when faced with that very situation.Name a few, please.
Quote
It is not an abusive act to ask an Eighteen year old to care for themselves if the parents do not agree with their lifestyle choices.It was cruel and a decision based on prejudice and hate. Is it illegal, no. Was it wrong? Yes.
Quote
You are stuck in a black and white thinking pattern. Your think your choices were limited to the streets or a treatment center.QuoteWell. Theoretically I could have risked deportation but I didn't want to get arrested or anything (no criminal record). You tell me all these options since your supernatural powers give you such insight into my past.QuoteThat's what happens when you suffer from Stinking Thinking.
Even my parents acknowledge they gave me no other choice. Are they victims of the same AA cultspeak term?
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 08:52:42 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
QuoteYou are responsible for your decisions and the results of those decisions. Be them bad or good. We are only victims of our own bad decisions. Once we realize this, we live an empowered life, in full control.I am not god, and certainly neither are you. Unexpected things happen and people get tricked. Are the jews responsible for their deaths?
You are the second person to now compare themselves to the Jewish victims of the holocaust. I know you are desperately seeking victim status, but this is beyond comparison. You are not Jews facing a holocaust. Your attempt to apply black and white stinking thinking on every tragic situation shows me how deply entrenched you really are.
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 09:00:10 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Sure, there are differences, concentration camps set out to deliberately kill the bodies, with minds being destroyed secondarily but inevitably, while programs deliberately kill the minds with bodies being destroyed secondarily but inevitably.
But, the grave murderous similarity is more than adequate for the comparison to be right on
Whoever you are, I'm glad you made this point, and I would have to agree. There was quite a to-do over this a few years back on the Straight Vets forum. Anyway, while a comparison like that may seem like a bit of a stretch and/or insulting to holocaust survivors, programs ARE grave and murderous indeed, and we could draw a comparison or two.... instead of Jews, they eat our young..
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: "psy"
QuoteYou were Eighteen. You could of done any number of things young adults do when faced with that very situation.Name a few, please.QuoteIt is not an abusive act to ask an Eighteen year old to care for themselves if the parents do not agree with their lifestyle choices.It was cruel and a decision based on prejudice and hate. Is it illegal, no. Was it wrong? Yes.QuoteYou are stuck in a black and white thinking pattern. Your think your choices were limited to the streets or a treatment center.QuoteWell. Theoretically I could have risked deportation but I didn't want to get arrested or anything (no criminal record). You tell me all these options since your supernatural powers give you such insight into my past.QuoteThat's what happens when you suffer from Stinking Thinking.Even my parents acknowledge they gave me no other choice. Are they victims of the same AA cultspeak term?
If you are still questioning how to care for yourself as an independent adult, it makes even more sense why you entered, and returned to treatment. When you left treatment, did you go back to your parents house? Do you still live at home even now? How old are you now?
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:04:39 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
programs deliberately kill the minds with bodies being destroyed secondarily but inevitably.
What does this mean, can you elaborate? You are the most elequent mindless zombie I've ever run across, assuming you have been in a program that "killed your mind". Why are the bodies of program participants destroyed secondarily? Do you all enjoy such pessimism directed at each other?
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 09:07:09 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I know you are desperately seeking victim status, but this is beyond comparison. You are not Jews facing a holocaust.No, we're probably not ~all Jews.. you're right about that.. haha.
Quote
Your attempt to apply black and white stinking thinking on every tragic situation shows me how deply entrenched you really are.
This is really funny.
I can't believe ppl keep replying to this shit, yet here I am.. :rofl:
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 09:08:51 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""programs deliberately kill the minds with bodies being destroyed secondarily but inevitably.
What does this mean, can you elaborate? You are the most elequent mindless zombie I've ever run across, assuming you have been in a program that "killed your mind". Why are the bodies of program participants destroyed secondarily? Do you all enjoy such pessimism directed at each other?
Free your mind and your ass will follow...
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 09:09:28 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
What if your family worked with the cops and made sure they held the treatment centre's wishes above the law? What if you did try to call the police and were arrested yourself for spreading "lies" after they talked to the treatment center. The program just tells the cops you're manipulating if they aren't relatives and they generally believe the program over the kid. I knew full well nobody would believe me, as you aren't now. Not all programs do these things, but some do.Quote from: ""psy""LOL. No.. you don't want me in your treatment centre. I would excercise my right to free speech and you would most certainly find that unacceptable. Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
I cannot forecably abduct you and treat you. As an adult, you would have to sign yourself in, and then could leave at any time. I could not keep your identification, because as an adult, you own it and it would be illegal for me to keep it. You could call the police and have them retrieve your property from me if I decided to steal it from you.
Quote
If you were disruptive to my treatment center, you would be asked to leave. Some people in treatment really need it, it's a life or death situation for them. I am surprised you have resorted to death threats.I think you misunderstood me. I merely meant to imply that if you were to hypothetically abduct or otherwise assault me with the intent of kidnapping I would be well within my rights to kill you in order to escape. It's called self defense.
Quote
Nobody can abduct you for treatment *, this is another fantasy of yours and the death theats are unnecessary. You signed yourself in, don't forget that Psy. You are only a victim of your own bad decisions.
LOL. So if I kick you in the crotch, that would be your fault too, right. Since you're the "empowed" one living your life in full control...
*you aren't too familiar with the escort (Teen Transport) business, are you?
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:13:31 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
This statement bothers me. I thought this was a safe discussion forum. Obviously, nobody can abduct you and force treatment upon you. This makes me think you are disconnected from reality regarding this situation, which makes you dangerous. You are right I cannot diagnose someone online, but ask your doctor about paranoid schizophrenia. There are medications that can help people for this. My mother has it and I helped her get her medication and she sounds a lot like you. She thinks people are trying to abduct her and violently reacts to her delusions.
I am sorry for pushing your buttons Psy, if that is what I have been doing. You obviously need a lot of help. Please do not think of me as a representation of the treatment industry and let that get in the way of you seeking treatment. I am not associated with any treatmen facility or program. You are safe to ask for help.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 09:20:29 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Don't project that shit on me, pls. You know nothing about me.Quote from: ""psy""Even my parents acknowledge they gave me no other choice. Are they victims of the same AA cultspeak term?
If you are still questioning how to care for yourself as an independent adult,
Quote
it makes even more sense why you entered, and returned to treatment.I was thrown on the streets for a day as punishment for trying to make an unauthorized phone call to my parents. I did go back because I thought if I worked the program they would let me graduate. Again, I was naive and they had no intention of letting me leave as long as the money was rolling in in large amounts.
Quote
When you left treatment Did you go back to your parents house? Do you still live at home even now? How old are you now?
Yes when I got out of program I lived with my parents since they were offering a place and we figured out a way to get along. No I don't live at home right now, I'm 24 and about to get my BA after which i'll be going for my masters.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:21:11 PM
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Guest"Quote from: ""psy""LOL. No.. you don't want me in your treatment centre. I would excercise my right to free speech and you would most certainly find that unacceptable. Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
I cannot forecably abduct you and treat you. As an adult, you would have to sign yourself in, and then could leave at any time. I could not keep your identification, because as an adult, you own it and it would be illegal for me to keep it. You could call the police and have them retrieve your property from me if I decided to steal it from you.QuoteWhat if your family worked with the cops and made sure they held the treatment centre's wishes above the law? What if you did try to call the police and were arrested yourself for spreading "lies" after they talked to the treatment center. The program just tells the cops you're manipulating if they aren't relatives and they generally believe the program over the kid. I knew full well nobody would believe me, as you aren't now. Not all programs do these things, but some do.QuoteIf you were disruptive to my treatment center, you would be asked to leave. Some people in treatment really need it, it's a life or death situation for them. I am surprised you have resorted to death threats.I think you misunderstood me. I merely meant to imply that if you were to hypothetically abduct or otherwise assault me with the intent of kidnapping I would be well within my rights to kill you in order to escape. It's called self defense.QuoteNobody can abduct you for treatment *, this is another fantasy of yours and the death theats are unnecessary. You signed yourself in, don't forget that Psy. You are only a victim of your own bad decisions.LOL. So if I kick you in the crotch, that would be your fault too, right. Since you're the "empowed" one living your life in full control...
*you aren't too familiar with the escort (Teen Transport) business, are you?
Since we both know this hypothetical is impossible to happen, it makes me wonder why you made the threat at all Psy. You are an adult and cannot be abducted by force, we both know this. I am familiar with the Teen transport business. You are not a teenager. If you kick me in the crotch I would have to take responsibility. Explaining reality to a delusional individual poses it's risks. People who work in treatment centers know this. If it costs me a kick to the crotch to set you free from your anger, so be it.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:25:25 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""Don't project that shit on me, pls. You know nothing about me.Quote from: ""psy""Even my parents acknowledge they gave me no other choice. Are they victims of the same AA cultspeak term?
If you are still questioning how to care for yourself as an independent adult,Quoteit makes even more sense why you entered, and returned to treatment.I was thrown on the streets for a day as punishment for trying to make an unauthorized phone call to my parents. I did go back because I thought if I worked the program they would let me graduate. Again, I was naive and they had no intention of letting me leave as long as the money was rolling in in large amounts.QuoteWhen you left treatment Did you go back to your parents house? Do you still live at home even now? How old are you now?Yes when I got out of program I lived with my parents since they were offering a place and we figured out a way to get along. No I don't live at home right now, I'm 24 and about to get my BA after which i'll be going for my masters.
I only know what you tell me. You choose to open your life to examination on a public internet message board, nobody is forcing this upon you. If your treatment facility was more tolerable than one day "on the street" as an adult, what are you complaining about? That right there is enough to make most parents dismiss your claims of abuse. Does that make sense to you why that might be?
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:33:43 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
I was thrown on the streets for a day as punishment for trying to make an unauthorized phone call to my parents. I did go back because I thought if I worked the program they would let me graduate. Again, I was naive and they had no intention of letting me leave as long as the money was rolling in in large amounts.
They had no intention of letting you leave, but they therw you out on the streets? You are contradicting yourself in the same sentence. You are lucky your parents payed them to take you back, it sounds like you would of had a rough time caring for yourself. You should be thanking that treatment center for taking you back in "off the streets" and giving you a second chance. Did you meet any other adolecsents that day you spent on the streets? Did they have rich parents willing to pay for a warm bed and food? Stinking Thinking my young friend psy, it will get you every time. Look at your situation from the eyes of a kid on the street at the time with no other choice. You had it pretty good Psy, and a family that cares about you. It's time to let it go.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 09:35:11 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I never said anything about actually doing it and the fact that it is so unlikely (however it HAS HAPPENED in Straight, Inc. afaik). I should further point out to you that it wasn't a likely happening. You suggested me being in your treatment program but did not specify how that could happen. I elaborated on what might happen if there was some sort of illegal intervention. There is nothing insane about self defense. Furthermore the statement was primarily made as "rhetorical hyperbole" to express disgust rather than to actually be a threat. Furthermore the addition of "(legally)" should be meant to imply you would first try to detain me illegally. You're the one who's schitzo if you think I would kill you, or anybody else without being given no other choice.Quote from: ""psy""Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
This statement bothers me. I thought this was a safe discussion forum. Obviously, nobody can abduct you and force treatment upon you. This makes me think you are disconnected from reality regarding this situation, which makes you dangerous. You are right I cannot diagnose someone online, but ask your doctor about paranoid schizophrenia. There are medications that can help people for this. My mother has it and I helped her get her medication and she sounds a lot like you. She thinks people are trying to abduct her and violently reacts to her delusions.
Quote
I am sorry for pushing your buttons Psy, if that is what I have been doing. You obviously need a lot of help. Please do not think of me as a representation of the treatment industry and let that get in the way of you seeking treatment.Yawn.
Quote
I am not associated with any treatmen facility or program.Previously you said you were. Why the change?
Quote
You are safe to ask for help.HAHAHA.. You must be REALLY new here.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:47:52 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""QuoteYou are responsible for your decisions and the results of those decisions. Be them bad or good. We are only victims of our own bad decisions. Once we realize this, we live an empowered life, in full control.I am not god, and certainly neither are you. Unexpected things happen and people get tricked. Are the jews responsible for their deaths?
You are the second person to now compare themselves to the Jewish victims of the holocaust. I know you are desperately seeking victim status, but this is beyond comparison. You are not Jews facing a holocaust. Your attempt to apply black and white stinking thinking on every tragic situation shows me how deply entrenched you really are.
You are going to go to prison child murderer and torturer. All of your child torturing money will be stripped from you in lawsuits.
What programs are you involved with, murderer?
Monster, no one seeks victim status, being kidnapped tortured and often killed makes one a victim. Your inability to see the connection between kidnapping and torturing 100s of thousands of children on the basis of their supposed unworthiness, often to death, for no other reason than a guardian signed off on it, shows me how you either are making your absurd statements for provocative effect, like with psy, or are defending you livlihood.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:49:51 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""programs deliberately kill the minds with bodies being destroyed secondarily but inevitably.
What does this mean, can you elaborate? You are the most elequent mindless zombie I've ever run across, assuming you have been in a program that "killed your mind". Why are the bodies of program participants destroyed secondarily? Do you all enjoy such pessimism directed at each other?
Yes program killed my mind, you are speaking to it's remains. I'm half the kid I used to be, but still twice as much as you
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 09:53:09 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""I was thrown on the streets for a day as punishment for trying to make an unauthorized phone call to my parents. I did go back because I thought if I worked the program they would let me graduate. Again, I was naive and they had no intention of letting me leave as long as the money was rolling in in large amounts.
They had no intention of letting you leave, but they therw you out on the streets?
Yes they would, because they knew it was not really feasable for you to make it on your own locally and would most likely believe what they were saying about "you can't make it on your own, need the program bla bla" and come back to the sole hope of salvation.
If you know of any ways I could have just left and started a new life on my own i'd like to hear it, actually. Please tell me how I could have left. 99% chance I already considered it.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:54:02 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""I never said anything about actually doing it and the fact that it is so unlikely (however it HAS HAPPENED in Straight, Inc.) should further point out to you that it wasn't a likely happening. You suggested me being in your treatment program but did not specify how that could happen. I elaborated on what might happen if there was some sort of illegal intervention. There is nothing insane about self defense. Furthermore the statement was primarily made as "rhetorical hyperbole" to express disgust rather than to actually be a threat. Furthermore the addition of "(legally)" should be meant to imply you would first try to detain me illegally. You're the one who's schitzo if you think I would kill you, or anybody else without being given no other choice.Quote from: ""psy""Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
This statement bothers me. I thought this was a safe discussion forum. Obviously, nobody can abduct you and force treatment upon you. This makes me think you are disconnected from reality regarding this situation, which makes you dangerous. You are right I cannot diagnose someone online, but ask your doctor about paranoid schizophrenia. There are medications that can help people for this. My mother has it and I helped her get her medication and she sounds a lot like you. She thinks people are trying to abduct her and violently reacts to her delusions.QuoteI am sorry for pushing your buttons Psy, if that is what I have been doing. You obviously need a lot of help. Please do not think of me as a representation of the treatment industry and let that get in the way of you seeking treatment.Yawn.QuoteI am not associated with any treatmen facility or program.Previously you said you were. Why the change?QuoteYou are safe to ask for help.HAHAHA.. You must be REALLY new here.
No treatment center would ever illegally kidnap you. If you believe this can happen, that is why I suggest you might be delusional and might want to seek help. The words "I will fucking kill you (legally)" sound very serious. By claiming it's legal, you make me think you are dangerous. Mentally ill people feel justified in carrying out their threats against what they see as an oppressive force which victimizes them. You said you are 24 years old, nobody is coming to kidnap you. There is no need for murderous threats against me. I have no power over you and nobody else does either. Empower yourself psy and free yourself from these delusions.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 09:59:06 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""Yes they would, because they knew it was not really feasable for you to make it on your own locally and would most likely believe what they were saying about "you can't make it on your own, need the program bla bla" and come back to the sole hope of salvation.Quote from: ""psy""I was thrown on the streets for a day as punishment for trying to make an unauthorized phone call to my parents. I did go back because I thought if I worked the program they would let me graduate. Again, I was naive and they had no intention of letting me leave as long as the money was rolling in in large amounts.
They had no intention of letting you leave, but they therw you out on the streets?
If you know of any ways I could have just left and started a new life on my own i'd like to hear it, actually. Please tell me how I could have left. 99% chance I already considered it.
Thought and action are two different things. We both know what you could have done and you chose not to. Now you are trying to place blame on me, for not offering up a great idea on a silver platter. You need to figure these things out for yourself Psy. If you were mistreated in a way that justified your internet crusade, then you would of stayed on the streets. Your response to unnecessary treatment is disproportionate to what you experienced Psy. You are trying to fuck up programs based on just your experience, that is selfish. You are a smart young man and your energies are better directed elsewhere. Let the people who need help get it. Get another cause, like helping the adolescent kids stuck on the street you never met because you were able to go to a warm bed. Life is all about choices Psy, remember that.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 10:04:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Any Straight, Inc. vets around to inform this idiot of what happens? Ever seen Over The GW, Guest?Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""I never said anything about actually doing it and the fact that it is so unlikely (however it HAS HAPPENED in Straight, Inc.) should further point out to you that it wasn't a likely happening. You suggested me being in your treatment program but did not specify how that could happen. I elaborated on what might happen if there was some sort of illegal intervention. There is nothing insane about self defense. Furthermore the statement was primarily made as "rhetorical hyperbole" to express disgust rather than to actually be a threat. Furthermore the addition of "(legally)" should be meant to imply you would first try to detain me illegally. You're the one who's schitzo if you think I would kill you, or anybody else without being given no other choice.Quote from: ""psy""Try to forceably abduct and "treat" me and I will fucking kill you (legally).
This statement bothers me. I thought this was a safe discussion forum. Obviously, nobody can abduct you and force treatment upon you. This makes me think you are disconnected from reality regarding this situation, which makes you dangerous. You are right I cannot diagnose someone online, but ask your doctor about paranoid schizophrenia. There are medications that can help people for this. My mother has it and I helped her get her medication and she sounds a lot like you. She thinks people are trying to abduct her and violently reacts to her delusions.QuoteI am sorry for pushing your buttons Psy, if that is what I have been doing. You obviously need a lot of help. Please do not think of me as a representation of the treatment industry and let that get in the way of you seeking treatment.Yawn.QuoteI am not associated with any treatmen facility or program.Previously you said you were. Why the change?QuoteYou are safe to ask for help.HAHAHA.. You must be REALLY new here.
No treatment center would ever illegally kidnap you. If you believe this can happen, that is why I suggest you might be delusional and might want to seek help.
Quote
The words "I will fucking kill you (legally)" sound very serious. By claiming it's legal, you make me think you are dangerous.Well, self defense is legal. Unless you attack or try to kidnap me you have nothing to worry about. Furthermore, you're an anonymous guest, and should not feel threatened by what anybody says on the internet.
Quote
Mentally ill people feel justified in carrying out their threats against what they see as an oppressive force which victimizes them. You said you are 24 years old, nobody is coming to kidnap you.You're right. I don't consider it very likely either, (though it has happened). This is why I brought up "rhetorical hyperbole". Perhaps you should google it.
Quote
There is no need for murderous threats against me. I have no power over you and nobody else does either.Now, yes, but that was not always the case.
Quote
Empower yourself psy and free yourself from these delusions.
Bla bla bla "EMPOWER"... Btw.. Have you ever been to est, Landmark Forum, Lifespring, Mind Dynamics or anything like that?
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 10:09:55 PM
(Seriously, you can't tell?)
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 10:12:42 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Any Straight, Inc. vets around to inform this idiot of what happens? Ever seen Over The GW, Guest?
No treatment center would ever illegally kidnap you. If you believe this can happen, that is why I suggest you might be delusional and might want to seek help.
Quote
The words "I will fucking kill you (legally)" sound very serious. By claiming it's legal, you make me think you are dangerous.Well, self defense is legal. Unless you attack or try to kidnap me you have nothing to worry about. Furthermore, you're an anonymous guest, and should not feel threatened by what anybody says on the internet.
Quote
Mentally ill people feel justified in carrying out their threats against what they see as an oppressive force which victimizes them. You said you are 24 years old, nobody is coming to kidnap you.You're right. I don't consider it very likely either, (though it has happened). This is why I brought up "rhetorical hyperbole". Perhaps you should google it.
Quote
There is no need for murderous threats against me. I have no power over you and nobody else does either.Now, yes, but that was not always the case.
Quote
Empower yourself psy and free yourself from these delusions.Bla bla bla "EMPOWER"... Btw.. Have you ever been to est, Landmark Forum, Lifespring, Mind Dynamics or anything like that?[/quote]
For all I know, you are a hacker capable of locating me by my internet postings. Dangerous people find ways to carry out what they view as justified self defense. Notice you abring up the term self defense, refering to a threat that does not exist in reality. You will not find anyone who was kidnapped and sent to a program against their will at the age of 24 unless authorized by the state. This is not healthy Psy and makes sane people worry. I am not your enemy.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 10:14:45 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
NOW who is delusional. You don't know what I could have done but perhaps you could offer some plausible suggestions to support this idea you emphasize so religiously.Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""Yes they would, because they knew it was not really feasable for you to make it on your own locally and would most likely believe what they were saying about "you can't make it on your own, need the program bla bla" and come back to the sole hope of salvation.Quote from: ""psy""I was thrown on the streets for a day as punishment for trying to make an unauthorized phone call to my parents. I did go back because I thought if I worked the program they would let me graduate. Again, I was naive and they had no intention of letting me leave as long as the money was rolling in in large amounts.
They had no intention of letting you leave, but they therw you out on the streets?
If you know of any ways I could have just left and started a new life on my own i'd like to hear it, actually. Please tell me how I could have left. 99% chance I already considered it.
Thought and action are two different things. We both know what you could have done and you chose not to.
Quote
Now you are trying to place blame on me, for not offering up a great idea on a silver platter.Doesn't have to be a great idea. You just keep insisting there was something I could have done, and since you claim to know what I could have done, i'd actually like to hear it.
Quote
You need to figure these things out for yourself Psy. If you were mistreated in a way that justified your internet crusade, then you would of stayed on the streets.What do you think happened to most others. Like I said. A lot of others had it a lot worse than I did.
[quyote]Your response to unnecessary treatment is disproportionate to what you experienced Psy.[/quote]
How do you know what I experienced. The place was so bad suicide attempts were a semi-monthly occurrence. Rape accusations went un-investigated, etc etc... Please don't lecture me on how I supposedly didn't go through hell. Do you really think I'd be this determined if something wasn't very wrong. I'm not the only person on this site who has had similar experiences.
Quote
You are trying to fuck up programs based on just your experience, that is selfish.Not just my experience, but everybody else who went through similar or worse.
Quote
You are a smart young man and your energies are better directed elsewhere.Don't you wish...
Quote
Let the people who need help get it. Get another cause, like helping the adolescent kids stuck on the street you never met because you were able to go to a warm bed.No. It's about my choices, everybody else's choices, and chance. If you think you can completely control your own destiny you are the delusional one.QuoteI sheltered kids who were kicked out at the risk of being kicked out of program for it. Don't tell me that I don't help out when I see suffering.QuoteLife is all about choices Psy, remember that.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 10:23:04 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
How do you know what I experienced. The place was so bad suicide attempts were a semi-monthly occurrence. Rape accusations went un-investigated, etc etc... Please don't lecture me on how I supposedly didn't go through hell. Do you really think I'd be this determined if something wasn't very wrong. I'm not the only person on this site who has had similar experiences.Quote from: ""Guest""NOW who is delusional. You don't know what I could have done but perhaps you could offer some plausible suggestions to support this idea you emphasize so religiously.Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""Yes they would, because they knew it was not really feasable for you to make it on your own locally and would most likely believe what they were saying about "you can't make it on your own, need the program bla bla" and come back to the sole hope of salvation.Quote from: ""psy""I was thrown on the streets for a day as punishment for trying to make an unauthorized phone call to my parents. I did go back because I thought if I worked the program they would let me graduate. Again, I was naive and they had no intention of letting me leave as long as the money was rolling in in large amounts.
They had no intention of letting you leave, but they therw you out on the streets?
If you know of any ways I could have just left and started a new life on my own i'd like to hear it, actually. Please tell me how I could have left. 99% chance I already considered it.
Thought and action are two different things. We both know what you could have done and you chose not to.QuoteNow you are trying to place blame on me, for not offering up a great idea on a silver platter.Doesn't have to be a great idea. You just keep insisting there was something I could have done, and since you claim to know what I could have done, i'd actually like to hear it.QuoteYou need to figure these things out for yourself Psy. If you were mistreated in a way that justified your internet crusade, then you would of stayed on the streets.What do you think happened to most others. Like I said. A lot of others had it a lot worse than I did.
[quyote]Your response to unnecessary treatment is disproportionate to what you experienced Psy.
Quote
You are trying to fuck up programs based on just your experience, that is selfish.Not just my experience, but everybody else who went through similar or worse.
Quote
You are a smart young man and your energies are better directed elsewhere.Don't you wish...
Quote
Let the people who need help get it. Get another cause, like helping the adolescent kids stuck on the street you never met because you were able to go to a warm bed.QuoteI sheltered kids who were kicked out at the risk of being kicked out of program for it. Don't tell me that I don't help out when I see suffering.QuoteLife is all about choices Psy, remember that.No. It's about my choices, everybody else's choices, and chance. If you think you can completely control your own destiny you are the delusional one.
I can empathize with the frustrations your parents must of felt. I cannot lay your life plan out for you. You made your choices and must live with them. I left home when I was sixteen. My spouse left home at seventeen. You do what you need to do. I cannot explain to you what independence and maturity are, you must grow up and experience these things for yourself Psy. Take responsibility for your life and try something, anything, that's the best advice I can give you at this point. You are a good kid, I think you will make it.
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 10:24:43 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
For all I know, you are a hacker capable of locating me by my internet postings. Dangerous people find ways to carry out what they view as justified self defense. Notice you abring up the term self defense, refering to a threat that does not exist in reality. You will not find anyone who was kidnapped and sent to a program against their will at the age of 24 unless authorized by the state.Again. It HAS happened. I even told you where. Why don't you stop bothering me and research Straight Inc. AFAIK Adults who tried to leave were detained and even assaulted outside Program. Unless I'm thinking of Kids of NJ i'm pretty sure it did happen.
Quote
This is not healthy Psy and makes sane people worry. I am not your enemy.
Whatever... If you're that easily spooked shouldn't you be looking under your bed for terrorists or something.
Post by: hurrikayne on November 14, 2007, 10:36:58 PM
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 10:36:58 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Take responsibility for your life and try something, anything, that's the best advice I can give you at this point.I wasn't asking for any of your advice, nor do I really want it. I am not living in squalor, I am not poor, I do not have needles sticking out of my arm, have never been arrested, and the last job I worked at before I went back to college full time paid 45k/year.
The same cannot be said for those who were not given a reasonable chance to succeed and ended up on the streets after their parents were told lies and encouraged not to provide support (or they would encourage the disease).
I know a guy who was in my program for stupid reasons like my own. Within a year program was able to convince the parents that he needed to hit "rock bottom" and the streets would be good for him. He was raped on the streets and spent years struggling. That suffering was unnecessary had he simply been given a decent chance. A months rent and a couple hundred dollars would have been more than sufficient (and worlds cheaper than a program).
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 10:46:26 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""Take responsibility for your life and try something, anything, that's the best advice I can give you at this point.I wasn't asking for any of your advice, nor do I really want it. I am not living in squalor, I am not poor, I do not have needles sticking out of my arm, have never been arrested, and the last job I worked at before I went back to college full time paid 45k/year.
The same cannot be said for those who were not given a reasonable chance to succeed and ended up on the streets after their parents were told lies and encouraged not to provide support (or they would encourage the disease).
I know a guy who was in my program for stupid reasons like my own. Within a year program was able to convince the parents that he needed to hit "rock bottom" and the streets would be good for him. He was raped on the streets and spent years struggling. That suffering was unnecessary had he simply been given a decent chance. A months rent and a couple hundred dollars would have been more than sufficient (and worlds cheaper than a program).
I am glad to know you are doing well for yourself Psy. I am relieved to hear you are not a drug addict or an alcoholic who is in need of treatment (someone suggested all adolescents who go through treatment are destroyed in some manor). I had a friend in high school who was the stoner in the crowd. He was funny and we thought he'd grow out of it. He moved on to cocaine to get a better high, and then starting shooting it up. Then he started mixing it with heroin to get high since it cocaine could only "get him normal". His name was Tyler Bergrass and he died when he was twenty two years old with a needle in his arm and a family that never got over it. I still know his family and they wish they had done something and how do you think they feel about what you say about treatment? He never got the help he needed. I can understand why you are angry that you were pressured by your parents into a treatment facility that you didn't need. Many people do need that help. This is a life and death situation. Not ever being an addict or alcoholic I am not sure you will ever fully understand this.
Post by: Anonymous on November 14, 2007, 11:10:35 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""Take responsibility for your life and try something, anything, that's the best advice I can give you at this point.I wasn't asking for any of your advice, nor do I really want it. I am not living in squalor, I am not poor, I do not have needles sticking out of my arm, have never been arrested, and the last job I worked at before I went back to college full time paid 45k/year.
The same cannot be said for those who were not given a reasonable chance to succeed and ended up on the streets after their parents were told lies and encouraged not to provide support (or they would encourage the disease).
I know a guy who was in my program for stupid reasons like my own. Within a year program was able to convince the parents that he needed to hit "rock bottom" and the streets would be good for him. He was raped on the streets and spent years struggling. That suffering was unnecessary had he simply been given a decent chance. A months rent and a couple hundred dollars would have been more than sufficient (and worlds cheaper than a program).
I am glad to know you are doing well for yourself Psy. I am relieved to hear you are not a drug addict or an alcoholic who is in need of treatment (someone suggested all adolescents who go through treatment are destroyed in some manor). I had a friend in high school who was the stoner in the crowd. He was funny and we thought he'd grow out of it. He moved on to cocaine to get a better high, and then starting shooting it up. Then he started mixing it with heroin to get high since it cocaine could only "get him normal". His name was Tyler Bergrass and he died when he was twenty two years old with a needle in his arm and a family that never got over it. I still know his family and they wish they had done something and how do you think they feel about what you say about treatment? He never got the help he needed. I can understand why you are angry that you were pressured by your parents into a treatment facility that you didn't need. Many people do need that help. This is a life and death situation. Not ever being an addict or alcoholic I am not sure you will ever fully understand this.
Hi, guest. What program do you work for? Why don't you log in? I'm interested in what place, in particular, pushed that pole through your brain.
Is this the WHo?
Post by: Froderik on November 14, 2007, 11:10:55 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
No treatment center would ever illegally kidnap you.
Hmm...
Post by: psy on November 14, 2007, 11:13:18 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Not ever being an addict or alcoholic I am not sure you will ever fully understand this.
Because only alcoholics understand alcoholics right? And they can identify them right?
Post by: psy on November 15, 2007, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You are a good kid, I think you will make it.What arrogance to even suppose that you can tell the future. Do you make dire predictions to the addicts you meet? Do you tell them they will DIE without treatment? You are pretending to know the future and are taking choice out of people's hands.
Tragedies happen, people, die and unfortunately it's a price i believe we have to pay to live in a free society. If you think a person is really overdoing it convince them to cut down, stop, or get counseling (as in legitimate psychotherapy NOT AA) or perhaps some self-help like Rational Recovery. Or perhaps family can do what rational recovery suggests:
http://www.rational.org/newrational/CCFAM/cfam1.html (http://www.rational.org/newrational/CCFAM/cfam1.html)
If you want insanely well researched websight showing why AA is a bunch of cult bullshit look here:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-not_good.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-not_good.html)
Tell me this: Are you a parent, other family, staff, etc???
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 12:36:34 AM
Quote from: ""psy""
Tragedies happen, people, die and unfortunately it's a price i believe we have to pay to live in a free society.
It's this sort of remark that reminds me that you remain in a black and white stinking thinking frame of mind. What if that is how I responded to the story of your friend who was raped- that you and your friend couldn't handle free society- so you deserved to be raped? Your logic is flawed to punish people who need help because your parents pressured you into unnecessary treatment and you chose to accept it. Your position confuses me for this reason. In argument against treatment you claim we live in a free society and those addicted to substances deserve a death sentence. Then you tell us when presented with life in that free society as an adult, you were so frightened by it, you chose to remain in a treatment center you claim mistreated you. It just doesn't make any sense Psy.
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 12:40:21 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""Take responsibility for your life and try something, anything, that's the best advice I can give you at this point.I wasn't asking for any of your advice, nor do I really want it. I am not living in squalor, I am not poor, I do not have needles sticking out of my arm, have never been arrested, and the last job I worked at before I went back to college full time paid 45k/year.
The same cannot be said for those who were not given a reasonable chance to succeed and ended up on the streets after their parents were told lies and encouraged not to provide support (or they would encourage the disease).
I know a guy who was in my program for stupid reasons like my own. Within a year program was able to convince the parents that he needed to hit "rock bottom" and the streets would be good for him. He was raped on the streets and spent years struggling. That suffering was unnecessary had he simply been given a decent chance. A months rent and a couple hundred dollars would have been more than sufficient (and worlds cheaper than a program).
I am glad to know you are doing well for yourself Psy. I am relieved to hear you are not a drug addict or an alcoholic who is in need of treatment (someone suggested all adolescents who go through treatment are destroyed in some manor). I had a friend in high school who was the stoner in the crowd. He was funny and we thought he'd grow out of it. He moved on to cocaine to get a better high, and then starting shooting it up. Then he started mixing it with heroin to get high since it cocaine could only "get him normal". His name was Tyler Bergrass and he died when he was twenty two years old with a needle in his arm and a family that never got over it. I still know his family and they wish they had done something and how do you think they feel about what you say about treatment? He never got the help he needed. I can understand why you are angry that you were pressured by your parents into a treatment facility that you didn't need. Many people do need that help. This is a life and death situation. Not ever being an addict or alcoholic I am not sure you will ever fully understand this.
Hi, guest. What program do you work for? Why don't you log in? I'm interested in what place, in particular, pushed that pole through your brain.
Is this the WHo?
Post by: psy on November 15, 2007, 03:59:06 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Well. That's what I'm asking you. Are you saying they put themselves in that position so they are responsible for what happened? It's like saying a girl in a miniskirt was asking to get raped.Quote from: ""psy""
Tragedies happen, people, die and unfortunately it's a price i believe we have to pay to live in a free society.
It's this sort of remark that reminds me that you remain in a black and white stinking thinking frame of mind. What if that is how I responded to the story of your friend who was raped- that you and your friend couldn't handle free society- so you deserved to be raped?
You might not take that concept to that extreme but I've seen it taken *there. The program I was in combined Lifespring and EST with Synanon (which is based on AA). Why I attack AA is partially because it's a (mostly) compatible belief structure
Quote
Your logic is flawedYou should know you're lecturing a computer programmer on logic. But ok. Let's have a little fun and dissect your next statement (isn't this fun).
Quote
to punish peopleYou are of the opinion that punishment is letting somebody have free will? That is wrong. Taking away the rights of another person is always wrong. It's a matter of having to break free will to gain compliance. "Rock bottom" is a euphemism for slamming a person into a wall until they say "uncle". I can't emphasize enough that forced treatment is re-education.
What you believe is that drugs take away the free will to the point where he cannot make his own decisions. This is your belief and not everybody agrees with it... You however (of course) warn your kids early about this and express these beliefs as fact to those around you, spreading the dogma. You create a self fulfilling prophecy unwittingly. Since people say "oh.. he's an addict" or "ooh.. he's a treatment professional*1" and take what is said as truth, especially since what you're saying you're saying with such charisma since you really believe you are saving lives. What you are, albeit unwittingly, is a deployable agent of the cult. You're a missionary, bring the truth to the unsaved destined for hell/dead/insane/in jail etc... These ideas are heresy to you. Isn't free speech a bitch.
*1 (they just assume that entails a whole lot, which it doens't in most states)
Quote
who need helpAnd who makes this decision and is there any due process?
Quote
because your parents pressured you into unnecessary treatmentNo... They sent me to a boarding school. Have you not read their website to see how they market themselves? Oh.. I'l love to see them claim to be a treatment centre. It would be really easy to shut em down then...
Quote
and you chose to accept it.Yes. It was a boarding school that made a lot of promises and delivered very little of what they said. Ask my parents.
Quote
Your position confuses me for this reason. In argument against treatment you claim we live in a free society and those addicted to substances deserve a death sentence.Well... there you go again saying that everybody who uses substances is sentenced to death. You are saying that people never quit on their own which IS NOT TRUE. In FACT if you had actually read the orangepapers link on effectiveness, you would know that AA actally does more harm than good (and by their own studies too).
If you teach a person they are powerless over something they will be and AA members have a 5 TIMES HIGHER rate of binge drinking than those with no treatment (3 groups were studied). Again. That's on the orange papers under effectiveness. You can find the source to that original study and many many more there.
Quote
Then you tell us when presented with life in that free society as an adult, you were so frightened by itI was never frightened before Benchmark. I ran away (because they were going to send me to this creepy boarding school), moved in with a friend, and was working and all that in Ireland. It was the happiest, and perhaps only fully free time of my life. I was Not afraid. I was also very sociable, I was also much more confident around groups of people. I also had a much better self image.
I wasn't frightened until I was told by everybody who were supposed to be professionals that I couldn't make it without working the program. I wasn't frightened until that was drilled into my head. I wasn't frightened until I saw every single "AWOL" who left come back broken. Redlands is the program, it's an extention of Benchmark and that's what you just don't get.
Maybe with a map, some money, a phone, identicfication... something you might have a chance, but with nothing, and the local cops and program nepotism, etc. And they CAN and DO pick you up and arbitrarily send you to jail because you're homeless. And make damn sure to clean up before a NATSAP tour. And there is information I can't talk about publicly but will come out in time. The fucking point is that I really did have no decent option to leave (and believe me I tried).
Quote
you chose to remain in a treatment center you claim mistreated you.People make choices based on information and beliefs they have. If you provide them with false information you can change their behavior by using their beliefs (you trick them). I had never been on the streets alone, especially at night, especially in a strange town I knew to be dangerous at night. Based on the information that the staff was pushing* plus my fear, yes I admit I was afraid, plus my lack of any resources of identification...
*("you're here because you need this place. If you didn't need this place you wouldn't be here")(despite the fact we knew the program was misrepresented to us as a fact... but dogma trumps fact) YOU TELL ME WHAT CHOICE I HAD!
They ROBBED ME and got away with it and you seem to think it's somehow justified - or that it was somehow my fault - or that I should ignore the fact that this is continuing to happen and hurt people just like I was. This is not a school of menaces. A large percentage while I was there had never done drugs, alcohol, cigarettes or anything like that (but most of em did by the time they left, or soon after). CHECK THEIR MARKETING! They treated everything as an addiction. Most staff didn't have any sort of psychological licenses or official training outside of psychological cults such as EST and Lifespring. Mel Wasserman incorporated them into his CEDU model along with Charles E Dederich's Synanon.*
The point is that these things are not psychology, they are harmful cults and the public should be educated on the effects. I also believe that locked away long term treatment should be out of the hands of the parents since they are often too naive to make good decisions on the matter. They far too often get conned and then sucked into a cult with seminars. Soon they become deployable recruitment agents for the cult (research how WWASP operates) Ultimately I believe the child his or herself should have the right to decide whether or not he wants treatment for a problem and should be fully and honestly informed on what that entails. I DO NOT BELIEVE that a person who has attained the reason to ask for freedom should be denied it. EVER. There should also be as much transparency as possible (letters to parents and all of his friends) and absolutely no monitoring of communication with the parents (basically i'm saying give the kid a cell phone and free access to the internet). Why? Because it's a safety precaution. There is also a matter of free speech and there is also a matter that the kid will be going back to his hometown and will eventually see his friends. If they can say "hey man... don't tempt me... please don't do that around me. If you're my friend you'll understand"
There are so many things that programs are NOT but should be (but will never be of their own volition, since it's not nearly as profitable). You don't seem to understand how this works. Research it! Research things like LGAT technologies. Google Margaret Singer. Buy Cults in Our Midst... If you really want to make an informed decision, what's wrong with examining all the information.
Read orange-papers but please don't fucking patronize me and tell me i'm crazy... It's insulting. And please don't or pretend to pity me. If you actually pity me, do me a favor and picture me pointing at you, laughing, and saying this to your face, because that is exactly what goes on in program if you don't agree with what they have to say... but this is text on a screen and I am in no position of authority over you, unlike a program. Don't act like this site is "stinking thinking". What you're arguing is called "sacred science" by Robert Lifton (PhD):
(Read it s l o w l y if you don't understand it. I don't normally say that but you don't exactly seem to be a rocket scientist with your dogma where your logic should be... and, in my opinion, - you're also a judgemental asshole who really deserves to be told the fuck off.)
[and these are comments]
Quote from: ""Robert Lifton""
The "Sacred Science"
The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic dogma, holding it out as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. This sacredness is evident in the prohibition (whether or not explicit) against the questioning of basic assumptions [you believe that we are sick because we believe an idea that itself is somehow evil or will kill us based on an assumed truth you would not be able to back up if asked (go ahead)], and in the reverence which is demanded for the originators of the Word, the present bearers of the Word [you], and the Word itself["stinkin thinkin"]. While thus transcending ordinary concerns of logic[You need to take a logic class, or learn programming or something.], however, the milieu at the same time makes an exaggerated claim of airtight logic, of absolute "scientific" precision. Thus the ultimate moral vision becomes an ultimate science; and the man who dares to criticize it, or to harbor even unspoken alternative ideas, becomes not only immoral and irreverent, but also "unscientific." [that would be many of us at fornits] In this way, the philosopher kings of modern ideological totalism reinforce their authority by claiming to share in the rich and respected heritage of natural science. [ever researched Bill Wilson's life much.. go to Orange Papers. I'll stop commenting here. You should be able to figure out what I'm implying. I recommend you read that whole thing] The assumption here is not so much that man can be God, but rather that man's ideas can be God: that an absolute science of ideas (and implicitly, an absolute science of man) exists, or is at least very close to being attained; that this science can be combined with an equally absolute body of moral principles; and that the resulting doctrine is true for all men at all times. Although no ideology goes quite this far in overt statement, such assumptions are implicit in totalist practice.
At the level of the individual, the totalist sacred science can offer much comfort and security. Its appeal lies in its seeming unification of the mystical and the logical modes of experience (in psychoanalytic terms, of the primary and secondary thought processes). For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be.
Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development.
"Stinking Thinking" is also an example of loading the language:
Quote from: ""Robert Lifton""
Loading the Language
The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, for instance, the phrase "bourgeois mentality" is used to encompass and critically dismiss ordinarily troublesome concerns like the quest for individual expression, the exploration of alternative ideas, and the search for perspective and balance in political judgments. And in addition to their function as interpretive shortcuts, these cliches become what Richard Weaver has called "ultimate terms" : either "god terms," representative of ultimate good; or "devil terms," representative of ultimate evil. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, "progress," "progressive," "liberation," "proletarian standpoints" and "the dialectic of history" fall into the former category; "capitalist," "imperialist," "exploiting classes," and "bourgeois" (mentality, liberalism, morality, superstition, greed) of course fall into the latter. Totalist language then, is repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon, prematurely abstract, highly categorical, relentlessly judging, and to anyone but its most devoted advocate, deadly dull: in Lionel Trilling's phrase, "the language of nonthought."
To be sure, this kind of language exists to some degree within any cultural or organizational group, and all systems of belief depend upon it. It is in part an expression of unity and exclusiveness: as Edward Sapir put it, "'He talks like us' is equivalent to saying 'He is one of us.'" The loading is much more extreme in ideological totalism, however, since the jargon expresses the claimed certitudes of the sacred science. Also involved is an underlying assumption that language - like all other human products - can be owned and operated by the Movement. No compunctions are felt about manipulating or loading it in any fashion; the only consideration is its usefulness to the cause.
For an individual person, the effect of the language of ideological totalism can be summed up in one word: constriction. He is, so to speak, linguistically deprived; and since language is so central to all human experience, his capacities for thinking and feeling are immensely narrowed. This is what Hu meant when he said, "using the same pattern of words for so long…you feel chained." Actually, not everyone exposed feels chained, but in effect everyone is profoundly confined by these verbal fetters. As in other aspects of totalism, this loading may provide an initial sense of insight and security, eventually followed by uneasiness. This uneasiness may result in a retreat into a rigid orthodoxy in which an individual shouts the ideological jargon all the louder in order to demonstrate his conformity, hide his own dilemma and his despair, and protect himself from the fear and guilt he would feel should he attempt to use words and phrases other than the correct ones. Or else he may adapt a complex pattern of inner division, and dutifully produce the expected cliché's in public performances while in his private moments he searches for more meaningful avenues of expression. Either way, his imagination becomes increasingly dissociated from his actual life experiences and may tend to atrophy from disuse.
Quote
It just doesn't make any sense Psy.They maybe you don't understand. All you have to do is buy Cults In Our Midst and read the thing and it will answer 3/4 of your questions here and far more. Or ask me for some links if you're interested. I've already heard your side a thousand fucking times and it's fucked up. If you give me time, I can explain why.
And thank you for bringing "Stinking Thinking" to this here rap. I'm beginning to like being fully armed in this here rap* (i'm speaking metaphorically).
* A.K.A. "group therapy" to the parents
I'm not going to respond to you until you at least do some homework and research. You want to play program with me, i'll do it to you. If you don't consider all information you are choosing to be blind. Read.
NEXT ![/color]
Post by: psy on November 15, 2007, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
These numbers have not been updated in about 6 months but they do reflect that the suicide rates for kids attending TBS's is extremely low compared to the public sector.
NCES still has not released their data for 2004-2005 year..... as soon as it becomes available I will add the figures in.
You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
PARENTS PAY ATTENTION[/color]:
LET Du = deaths in public schools / year
LET Dr = deaths in private programs / year
LET Su= total number of students / year in public school
LET Sr = total number of students / year in private programs
LET Pu = probability of death per year in public school
LET Pr = brobability od death per year in private programs
So let's Say Px = Dx / Sx
You might be able to find Su but without Sr (do you have an official number or no clue at all, who)you will never be able to say which is safer conclusively... even then. Suicide rates after program and many other factors also need to be taken into account.
Number of deaths means nothing. It's relative to the size of the industry (relatively small) versus public schools. Plus. There is no data recorded on this officially either. I don't know why you even bother with your bullshit propaganda.
If you want anything close to official statistics go ask the GAO.
Post by: psy on November 15, 2007, 05:56:15 AM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""Not ever being an addict or alcoholic I am not sure you will ever fully understand this.Because only alcoholics understand alcoholics right? And they can identify them right?
OH. And please answer those two questions, guest. Goodnight i'll talk to you tomorrow.
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 08:08:42 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It's this sort of remark that reminds me that you remain in a black and white stinking thinking frame of mind.
You'd like to see psy upgrade to a hi-def, color stinking thinking frame of mind...eh, Who? :rofl:
Post by: TheWho on November 15, 2007, 09:16:40 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""It's this sort of remark that reminds me that you remain in a black and white stinking thinking frame of mind.You'd like to see psy upgrade to a hi-def, color stinking thinking frame of mind...eh, Who? :rofl:
I know sleep walking is a condition but I wonder if "Sleep web surfing" is going to get its own code in DSM-V? My alter ego must be working overtime...... high def stinking thinking? This sounds interesting, I will read up on it.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 10:35:30 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""Well. That's what I'm asking you. Are you saying they put themselves in that position so they are responsible for what happened? It's like saying a girl in a miniskirt was asking to get raped.Quote from: ""psy""
Tragedies happen, people, die and unfortunately it's a price i believe we have to pay to live in a free society.
It's this sort of remark that reminds me that you remain in a black and white stinking thinking frame of mind. What if that is how I responded to the story of your friend who was raped- that you and your friend couldn't handle free society- so you deserved to be raped?
You might not take that concept to that extreme but I've seen it taken *there. The program I was in combined Lifespring and EST with Synanon (which is based on AA). Why I attack AA is partially because it's a (mostly) compatible belief structureQuoteYour logic is flawedYou should know you're lecturing a computer programmer on logic. But ok. Let's have a little fun and dissect your next statement (isn't this fun).Quoteto punish peopleYou are of the opinion that punishment is letting somebody have free will? That is wrong. Taking away the rights of another person is always wrong. It's a matter of having to break free will to gain compliance. "Rock bottom" is a euphemism for slamming a person into a wall until they say "uncle". I can't emphasize enough that forced treatment is re-education.
What you believe is that drugs take away the free will to the point where he cannot make his own decisions. This is your belief and not everybody agrees with it... You however (of course) warn your kids early about this and express these beliefs as fact to those around you, spreading the dogma. You create a self fulfilling prophecy unwittingly. Since people say "oh.. he's an addict" or "ooh.. he's a treatment professional*1" and take what is said as truth, especially since what you're saying you're saying with such charisma since you really believe you are saving lives. What you are, albeit unwittingly, is a deployable agent of the cult. You're a missionary, bring the truth to the unsaved destined for hell/dead/insane/in jail etc... These ideas are heresy to you. Isn't free speech a bitch.
*1 (they just assume that entails a whole lot, which it doens't in most states)Quotewho need helpAnd who makes this decision and is there any due process?Quotebecause your parents pressured you into unnecessary treatmentNo... They sent me to a boarding school. Have you not read their website to see how they market themselves? Oh.. I'l love to see them claim to be a treatment centre. It would be really easy to shut em down then...Quoteand you chose to accept it.Yes. It was a boarding school that made a lot of promises and delivered very little of what they said. Ask my parents.QuoteYour position confuses me for this reason. In argument against treatment you claim we live in a free society and those addicted to substances deserve a death sentence.Well... there you go again saying that everybody who uses substances is sentenced to death. You are saying that people never quit on their own which IS NOT TRUE. In FACT if you had actually read the orangepapers link on effectiveness, you would know that AA actally does more harm than good (and by their own studies too).
If you teach a person they are powerless over something they will be and AA members have a 5 TIMES HIGHER rate of binge drinking than those with no treatment (3 groups were studied). Again. That's on the orange papers under effectiveness. You can find the source to that original study and many many more there.QuoteThen you tell us when presented with life in that free society as an adult, you were so frightened by itI was never frightened before Benchmark. I ran away (because they were going to send me to this creepy boarding school), moved in with a friend, and was working and all that in Ireland. It was the happiest, and perhaps only fully free time of my life. I was Not afraid. I was also very sociable, I was also much more confident around groups of people. I also had a much better self image.
I wasn't frightened until I was told by everybody who were supposed to be professionals that I couldn't make it without working the program. I wasn't frightened until that was drilled into my head. I wasn't frightened until I saw every single "AWOL" who left come back broken. Redlands is the program, it's an extention of Benchmark and that's what you just don't get.
Maybe with a map, some money, a phone, identicfication... something you might have a chance, but with nothing, and the local cops and program nepotism, etc. And they CAN and DO pick you up and arbitrarily send you to jail because you're homeless. And make damn sure to clean up before a NATSAP tour. And there is information I can't talk about publicly but will come out in time. The fucking point is that I really did have no decent option to leave (and believe me I tried).Quoteyou chose to remain in a treatment center you claim mistreated you.People make choices based on information and beliefs they have. If you provide them with false information you can change their behavior by using their beliefs (you trick them). I had never been on the streets alone, especially at night, especially in a strange town I knew to be dangerous at night. Based on the information that the staff was pushing* plus my fear, yes I admit I was afraid, plus my lack of any resources of identification...
*("you're here because you need this place. If you didn't need this place you wouldn't be here")(despite the fact we knew the program was misrepresented to us as a fact... but dogma trumps fact) YOU TELL ME WHAT CHOICE I HAD!
They ROBBED ME and got away with it and you seem to think it's somehow justified - or that it was somehow my fault - or that I should ignore the fact that this is continuing to happen and hurt people just like I was. This is not a school of menaces. A large percentage while I was there had never done drugs, alcohol, cigarettes or anything like that (but most of em did by the time they left, or soon after). CHECK THEIR MARKETING! They treated everything as an addiction. Most staff didn't have any sort of psychological licenses or official training outside of psychological cults such as EST and Lifespring. Mel Wasserman incorporated them into his CEDU model along with Charles E Dederich's Synanon.*
The point is that these things are not psychology, they are harmful cults and the public should be educated on the effects. I also believe that locked away long term treatment should be out of the hands of the parents since they are often too naive to make good decisions on the matter. They far too often get conned and then sucked into a cult with seminars. Soon they become deployable recruitment agents for the cult (research how WWASP operates) Ultimately I believe the child his or herself should have the right to decide whether or not he wants treatment for a problem and should be fully and honestly informed on what that entails. I DO NOT BELIEVE that a person who has attained the reason to ask for freedom should be denied it. EVER. There should also be as much transparency as possible (letters to parents and all of his friends) and absolutely no monitoring of communication with the parents (basically i'm saying give the kid a cell phone and free access to the internet). Why? Because it's a safety precaution. There is also a matter of free speech and there is also a matter that the kid will be going back to his hometown and will eventually see his friends. If they can say "hey man... don't tempt me... please don't do that around me. If you're my friend you'll understand"
There are so many things that programs are NOT but should be (but will never be of their own volition, since it's not nearly as profitable). You don't seem to understand how this works. Research it! Research things like LGAT technologies. Google Margaret Singer. Buy Cults in Our Midst... If you really want to make an informed decision, what's wrong with examining all the information.
Read orange-papers but please don't fucking patronize me and tell me i'm crazy... It's insulting. And please don't or pretend to pity me. If you actually pity me, do me a favor and picture me pointing at you, laughing, and saying this to your face, because that is exactly what goes on in program if you don't agree with what they have to say... but this is text on a screen and I am in no position of authority over you, unlike a program. Don't act like this site is "stinking thinking". What you're arguing is called "sacred science" by Robert Lifton (PhD):
(Read it s l o w l y if you don't understand it. I don't normally say that but you don't exactly seem to be a rocket scientist with your dogma where your logic should be... and, in my opinion, - you're also a judgemental asshole who really deserves to be told the fuck off.)
[and these are comments]Quote from: ""Robert Lifton""The "Sacred Science"
The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic dogma, holding it out as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. This sacredness is evident in the prohibition (whether or not explicit) against the questioning of basic assumptions [you believe that we are sick because we believe an idea that itself is somehow evil or will kill us based on an assumed truth you would not be able to back up if asked (go ahead)], and in the reverence which is demanded for the originators of the Word, the present bearers of the Word [you], and the Word itself["stinkin thinkin"]. While thus transcending ordinary concerns of logic[You need to take a logic class, or learn programming or something.], however, the milieu at the same time makes an exaggerated claim of airtight logic, of absolute "scientific" precision. Thus the ultimate moral vision becomes an ultimate science; and the man who dares to criticize it, or to harbor even unspoken alternative ideas, becomes not only immoral and irreverent, but also "unscientific." [that would be many of us at fornits] In this way, the philosopher kings of modern ideological totalism reinforce their authority by claiming to share in the rich and respected heritage of natural science. [ever researched Bill Wilson's life much.. go to Orange Papers. I'll stop commenting here. You should be able to figure out what I'm implying. I recommend you read that whole thing] The assumption here is not so much that man can be God, but rather that man's ideas can be God: that an absolute science of ideas (and implicitly, an absolute science of man) exists, or is at least very close to being attained; that this science can be combined with an equally absolute body of moral principles; and that the resulting doctrine is true for all men at all times. Although no ideology goes quite this far in overt statement, such assumptions are implicit in totalist practice.
At the level of the individual, the totalist sacred science can offer much comfort and security. Its appeal lies in its seeming unification of the mystical and the logical modes of experience (in psychoanalytic terms, of the primary and secondary thought processes). For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be.
Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development.
"Stinking Thinking" is also an example of loading the language:Quote from: ""Robert Lifton""Loading the Language
The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, for instance, the phrase "bourgeois mentality" is used to encompass and critically dismiss ordinarily troublesome concerns like the quest for individual expression, the exploration of alternative ideas, and the search for perspective and balance in political judgments. And in addition to their function as interpretive shortcuts, these cliches become what Richard Weaver has called "ultimate terms" : either "god terms," representative of ultimate good; or "devil terms," representative of ultimate evil. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, "progress," "progressive," "liberation," "proletarian standpoints" and "the dialectic of history" fall into the former category; "capitalist," "imperialist," "exploiting classes," and "bourgeois" (mentality, liberalism, morality, superstition, greed) of course fall into the latter. Totalist language then, is repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon, prematurely abstract, highly categorical, relentlessly judging, and to anyone but its most devoted advocate, deadly dull: in Lionel Trilling's phrase, "the language of nonthought."
To be sure, this kind of language exists to some degree within any cultural or organizational group, and all systems of belief depend upon it. It is in part an expression of unity and exclusiveness: as Edward Sapir put it, "'He talks like us' is equivalent to saying 'He is one of us.'" The loading is much more extreme in ideological totalism, however, since the jargon expresses the claimed certitudes of the sacred science. Also involved is an underlying assumption that language - like all other human products - can be owned and operated by the Movement. No compunctions are felt about manipulating or loading it in any fashion; the only consideration is its usefulness to the cause.
For an individual person, the effect of the language of ideological totalism can be summed up in one word: constriction. He is, so to speak, linguistically deprived; and since language is so central to all human experience, his capacities for thinking and feeling are immensely narrowed. This is what Hu meant when he said, "using the same pattern of words for so long…you feel chained." Actually, not everyone exposed feels chained, but in effect everyone is profoundly confined by these verbal fetters. As in other aspects of totalism, this loading may provide an initial sense of insight and security, eventually followed by uneasiness. This uneasiness may result in a retreat into a rigid orthodoxy in which an individual shouts the ideological jargon all the louder in order to demonstrate his conformity, hide his own dilemma and his despair, and protect himself from the fear and guilt he would feel should he attempt to use words and phrases other than the correct ones. Or else he may adapt a complex pattern of inner division, and dutifully produce the expected cliché's in public performances while in his private moments he searches for more meaningful avenues of expression. Either way, his imagination becomes increasingly dissociated from his actual life experiences and may tend to atrophy from disuse.QuoteIt just doesn't make any sense Psy.They maybe you don't understand. All you have to do is buy Cults In Our Midst and read the thing and it will answer 3/4 of your questions here and far more. Or ask me for some links if you're interested. I've already heard your side a thousand fucking times and it's fucked up. If you give me time, I can explain why.
And thank you for bringing "Stinking Thinking" to this here rap. I'm beginning to like being fully armed in this here rap* (i'm speaking metaphorically).
* A.K.A. "group therapy" to the parents
I'm not going to respond to you until you at least do some homework and research. You want to play program with me, i'll do it to you. If you don't consider all information you are choosing to be blind. Read.
NEXT ![/color]
Psy all I wanted was to bring to your attention that you suffer from classic Stinking Thinking. Another person called this negative thinking. You can call it whatever you like, but I hope you give it some thought. You are hanging onto the past in a way that will effect your life negatively. Many adolescents go through difficult times during their emancipation. Your experience, while a good story if properly dramatized, is not any more difficult than most of your peers. You have found a group of people here who support your Stinking Thinking. They would have you remain in Stinking Thinking frame of mind forever, just as they are. Forget about them, you are uniqely intelligent Psy. You do not belong here, you deserve a positive life without Stinking Thinking. I know you are a confused young man, but you will figure things out eventually. You said you wouldn't respond if I did research, and then one minute later tell me you look forward to talking to me today. It's obvious you are confused. Death threats aside, I have enjoyed our conversation. I hope you give some thought to freeing your mind from the past and Stiniking Thinking. The posters on this board who support Stinking Thinking are not your allies Psy. They are parasites who feed off the misery of others. When you encounter these types in life, look and walk the other direction.
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 01:25:24 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Guest""Not ever being an addict or alcoholic I am not sure you will ever fully understand this.Because only alcoholics understand alcoholics right? And they can identify them right?
OH. And please answer those two questions, guest. Goodnight i'll talk to you tomorrow.
I mean that in the same way as when you tell me that since I have never read Cults in our Midst or Orang Papers I can never fully understrand your side of the argument. I am sure you can empathize with drug addicts and alcoholics, but I don't think you fully understand encompassing effect these disorders cause individuals. You make the choice to drink on a logical level, you said you like to have a clear mind so you don't drink. You are not an alcoholic if you can rationalize and logically ration your drugs and alcohol in this way Psy. This is a good thing, I pray you never suffer from these disorders. Since we are answering each other's unanswered questions maybe you wouldn't mind answering this one which you left out of your last reply.
Quote
Quote from: ""psy"Tragedies happen, people, die and unfortunately it's a price i believe we have to pay to live in a free society.What if that is how I responded to the story of your friend who was raped- that you and your friend couldn't handle free society- so you deserved to be raped?
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 01:25:41 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 02:05:35 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Psy all I wanted was to bring to your attention that you suffer from classic Stinking Thinking. Another person called this negative thinking. You can call it whatever you like, but I hope you give it some thought. You are hanging onto the past in a way that will effect your life negatively. Many adolescents go through difficult times during their emancipation. Your experience, while a good story if properly dramatized, is not any more difficult than most of your peers. You have found a group of people here who support your Stinking Thinking. They would have you remain in Stinking Thinking frame of mind forever, just as they are. Forget about them, you are uniqely intelligent Psy. You do not belong here, you deserve a positive life without Stinking Thinking. I know you are a confused young man, but you will figure things out eventually. You said you wouldn't respond if I did research, and then one minute later tell me you look forward to talking to me today. It's obvious you are confused. Death threats aside, I have enjoyed our conversation. I hope you give some thought to freeing your mind from the past and Stiniking Thinking. The posters on this board who support Stinking Thinking are not your allies Psy. They are parasites who feed off the misery of others. When you encounter these types in life, look and walk the other direction.
What persistence!! Let me bring to your attention that Psy is immune to program mind-fucking bullshit. It didn't work when he was held captive and it won't work now. The only stinking thinking here is your shadetree analysis of a young man over the internet and your attempt to silence him with manipulation. You're really working it... must see him as a viable threat.
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 02:49:10 PM
Post by: Froderik on November 15, 2007, 05:54:45 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 15, 2007, 06:03:35 PM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
Yup, pretty much stunk of troll right from the start... and it did become pretty obvious after a while that it was TheWho.. but I did have to wonder as to why Who was going to that extent, though... Was it just 'in fun', or....Who knows... ::seg::
Nah, he would had checked the IP after awhile. He knew it wasnt me. Persistent bugger, though.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 06:11:23 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""TheWho""These numbers have not been updated in about 6 months but they do reflect that the suicide rates for kids attending TBS's is extremely low compared to the public sector.
NCES still has not released their data for 2004-2005 year..... as soon as it becomes available I will add the figures in.
You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
PARENTS PAY ATTENTION[/color]:
LET Du = deaths in public schools / year
LET Dr = deaths in private programs / year
LET Su= total number of students / year in public school
LET Sr = total number of students / year in private programs
LET Pu = probability of death per year in public school
LET Pr = brobability od death per year in private programs
So let's Say Px = Dx / Sx
You might be able to find Su but without Sr (do you have an official number or no clue at all, who)you will never be able to say which is safer conclusively... even then. Suicide rates after program and many other factors also need to be taken into account.
Number of deaths means nothing. It's relative to the size of the industry (relatively small) versus public schools. Plus. There is no data recorded on this officially either. I don't know why you even bother with your bullshit propaganda.
If you want anything close to official statistics go ask the GAO.
Hey who! Why don't you respond to this?
Post by: Froderik on November 15, 2007, 06:19:38 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Froderik""Yup, pretty much stunk of troll right from the start... and it did become pretty obvious after a while that it was TheWho.. but I did have to wonder as to why Who was going to that extent, though... Was it just 'in fun', or....Who knows... ::seg::
Nah, he would had checked the IP after awhile. He knew it wasnt me. Persistent bugger, though.
...
Sure as hell sounded like you, Whoever it was. ::seg:: :rofl:
Post by: TheWho on November 15, 2007, 06:20:48 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""TheWho""These numbers have not been updated in about 6 months but they do reflect that the suicide rates for kids attending TBS's is extremely low compared to the public sector.Hey who! Why don't you respond to this?
NCES still has not released their data for 2004-2005 year..... as soon as it becomes available I will add the figures in.
You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
PARENTS PAY ATTENTION[/color]:
LET Du = deaths in public schools / year
LET Dr = deaths in private programs / year
LET Su= total number of students / year in public school
LET Sr = total number of students / year in private programs
LET Pu = probability of death per year in public school
LET Pr = brobability od death per year in private programs
So let's Say Px = Dx / Sx
You might be able to find Su but without Sr (do you have an official number or no clue at all, who)you will never be able to say which is safer conclusively... even then. Suicide rates after program and many other factors also need to be taken into account.
Number of deaths means nothing. It's relative to the size of the industry (relatively small) versus public schools. Plus. There is no data recorded on this officially either. I don't know why you even bother with your bullshit propaganda.
If you want anything close to official statistics go ask the GAO.
Respond to what? If you want rates/Stats we need to have a denominator, like psy said (total number of students which is not available). I am not presenting rates of death nor am I attempting probability. The numbers I have presented is "raw data"..... the data is accurate and stands on its own (although it is open to interpretation)
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 08:43:47 PM
Why the hell does anyone keep reposting that shit?
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 08:49:26 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 15, 2007, 10:08:17 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Meanwhile, back in reality, somewhere upwards of three dozen kids were killed by staff (restraints mostly) during that exact time period, and a hell of a lot more suicides than Who likes to acknowledge. God only knows how many were swept under the rug.
Why the hell does anyone keep reposting that shit?
Why does everyone say dozens, but no one will give the data to thewho?
You are the one sweeping it under the carpet unless you speak up.
Post by: psy on November 15, 2007, 10:37:52 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Respond to what? If you want rates/Stats we need to have a denominator, like psy said (total number of students which is not available). I am not presenting rates of death nor am I attempting probability. The numbers I have presented is "raw data"..... the data is accurate and stands on its own (although it is open to interpretation)
So basically what you're saying is that your data is useless and misleading? Why post it at all if it doesn't tell which is safer (which you have tried to imply in the past with your "statistics"). HAH! "raw sewage" would be a more accurate term.
Post by: TheWho on November 15, 2007, 11:12:40 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Respond to what? If you want rates/Stats we need to have a denominator, like psy said (total number of students which is not available). I am not presenting rates of death nor am I attempting probability. The numbers I have presented is "raw data"..... the data is accurate and stands on its own (although it is open to interpretation)
So basically what you're saying is that your data is useless and misleading? Why post it at all if it doesn't tell which is safer (which you have tried to imply in the past with your "statistics"). HAH! "raw sewage" would be a more accurate term.
I didnt see where I stated that at all. This is one of the same formats that the NCES uses. Its an account of the number of kids who died of suicide and Homicide in TBS's and Wilderness. Why wouldn’t people (yourself included) be interested in the number of kids? ISAC reports in the same manner (only they include photos and a little history) and I don’t see everyone jumping on their case.
If people think the numbers are wrong or not accurate why wouldn’t any of you come forward, send me a link, add a name instead of jumping all over it? Why not rub my face in it and say Ha,Ha you forgot this person from so and so school.... I am a big boy and will get over it... and then I will add the person to my list. That is how lists are made... that is how ISAC gets their names also. They don’t get bent out of shape because they omitted someone.. they quickly remedy the situation and add the person and that is what I will do.. but I think I have them all.
You act like high school kids.. grow up, act like a man and if you have a person to add then send me the link, don’t play school boy games. I invited everyone from the start to help design and format the collection of this data, starting with Deborah, 2 years ago, because I thought it was needed instead of trying to decipher how many kids get killed through reading hundreds of threads and guess what, no one wanted to put any work into it or were too busy fighting among themselves about whether or not I should be banned, so I created and researched the data myself.
So if everyone wants to cry foul be my guest, you were all too lazy to help out when I needed it, you are stuck with the format that I chose and created alone.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 11:12:54 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Meanwhile, back in reality, somewhere upwards of three dozen kids were killed by staff (restraints mostly) during that exact time period, and a hell of a lot more suicides than Who likes to acknowledge. God only knows how many were swept under the rug.
Why the hell does anyone keep reposting that shit?
Why does everyone say dozens, but no one will give the data to thewho?
You are the one sweeping it under the carpet unless you speak up.
The 'data' is in numerous places on the internet. Why is Who too lazy to research it himself? I for one would not give a minute of my time in collaberation with Who. Some have earnestly attempted to have rational debate with the man. He's incapable. If things aren't going his way, he changes the criteria, or compares apples to oranges, or goes mental and starts talking about some inane shit like the price of pork in China or how cars are made in Japan.
Don't you get it? He's not here to add to the discussion or even to have open debate. He misrepresents, blatantly lies, derails, attacks and wears people down with continuous posting of bullshit or misquoting people who then feel they have to correct him. He's sitting behind his computer laughing at all of you who play his little game. He knows you'll eventually burn out.
Anyone else notice how he has systematically attacked every regular here since he's been back?
Ignore him. If he posts some off the wall bullshit, respond with a link to information to refute him, but stop the never-ending jousting with him. You think you're going to run him off... no way. He enjoys running his program here and delights in pissing people off.
Don't volunteer for his program.
Post by: TheWho on November 15, 2007, 11:26:14 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""Guest""Meanwhile, back in reality, somewhere upwards of three dozen kids were killed by staff (restraints mostly) during that exact time period, and a hell of a lot more suicides than Who likes to acknowledge. God only knows how many were swept under the rug.
Why the hell does anyone keep reposting that shit?
Why does everyone say dozens, but no one will give the data to thewho?
You are the one sweeping it under the carpet unless you speak up.
The 'data' is in numerous places on the internet. Why is Who too lazy to research it himself? I for one would not give a minute of my time in collaberation with Who. Some have earnestly attempted to have rational debate with the man. He's incapable. If things aren't going his way, he changes the criteria, or compares apples to oranges, or goes mental and starts talking about some inane shit like the price of pork in China or how cars are made in Japan.
Don't you get it? He's not here to add to the discussion or even to have open debate. He misrepresents, blatantly lies, derails, attacks and wears people down with continuous posting of bullshit or misquoting people who then feel they have to correct him. He's sitting behind his computer laughing at all of you who play his little game. He knows you'll eventually burn out.
Anyone else notice how he has systematically attacked every regular here since he's been back?
Ignore him. If he posts some off the wall bullshit, respond with a link to information to refute him, but stop the never-ending jousting with him. You think you're going to run him off... no way. He enjoys running his program here and delights in pissing people off.
Don't volunteer for his program.
Not looking for any volunteers...but if you have a need to be critical or think the data is incorrect.. then be specific otherwise you are just blowing smoke. I have tried to be as clear as possible with the data...provided links where possible and sited my sources.
Also as a response to your post, you must be new here. It is I that is usually attacked for my views and trolled upon. If you havent noticed my views are in the extreme minority here, since I am a parent of a child who attended a TBS.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 15, 2007, 11:35:26 PM
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 12:03:24 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
If all else fails, WHO will snidely name-call; like he just called Psy a "school boy" or he will falsely accuse someone of "attacking his daughter." Waste of time to engage him; or his foolish data.
So no one has ever called thewho or his daughter a name before? Thewho is right, you must be new here.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 12:12:17 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
If all else fails, WHO will snidely name-call; like he just called Psy a "school boy" or he will falsely accuse someone of "attacking his daughter." Waste of time to engage him; or his foolish data.
I didnt see where he called anyone a school boy. He said "dont play school boy games".
Also, No where in the post did thewho refer to his daughter being attacked. You people really twist his words around.
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 12:49:20 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""TheWho""Respond to what? If you want rates/Stats we need to have a denominator, like psy said (total number of students which is not available). I am not presenting rates of death nor am I attempting probability. The numbers I have presented is "raw data"..... the data is accurate and stands on its own (although it is open to interpretation)
So basically what you're saying is that your data is useless and misleading? Why post it at all if it doesn't tell which is safer (which you have tried to imply in the past with your "statistics"). HAH! "raw sewage" would be a more accurate term.
I didnt see where I stated that at all. This is one of the same formats that the NCES uses. Its an account of the number of kids who died of suicide and Homicide in TBS's and Wilderness. Why wouldn’t people (yourself included) be interested in the number of kids? ISAC reports in the same manner (only they include photos and a little history) and I don’t see everyone jumping on their case.
If people think the numbers are wrong or not accurate why wouldn’t any of you come forward, send me a link, add a name instead of jumping all over it? Why not rub my face in it and say Ha,Ha you forgot this person from so and so school.... I am a big boy and will get over it... and then I will add the person to my list. That is how lists are made... that is how ISAC gets their names also. They don’t get bent out of shape because they omitted someone.. they quickly remedy the situation and add the person and that is what I will do.. but I think I have them all.
You act like high school kids.. grow up, act like a man and if you have a person to add then send me the link, don’t play school boy games.
OOOH... what's the matter. Did fucking up your pretty marketing hurt youw feewings. Somebody call the Waaaambulance.
Here's why your "raw data" story is bullshit: If you had wanted to post raw data you would have just said : I found X number of deaths in programs this year. Instead you list your afore mentioned personally collected data of industry deaths right along side statistics in public schools. You know damn well that non-mathematically oriented parents are going to mis-interpret that data and that is why you post that shit for new people. You're job is bullshit marketing to new people. Is this revenge for that time Me, Karen, and Exhausted totally pwned Lon Woodbury's site? Maybe a few lost customers?
Quote
I invited everyone from the start to help design and format the collection of this data, starting with Deborah,
Well that explains a few things... You do have a certain way with people.
Quote
2 years ago, because I thought it was needed instead of trying to decipher how many kids get killed through reading hundreds of threads
You read Fornits every day like a vulture and you know it. Your statistics are bullshit. Ask Pitbull mom what she thinks about the people you work for.
I love it. You're an industry paid thrall posting here and parents are supposed to listen to you rather than the GAO's independent study. You expect them to look out for reported deaths when A: you and parents aren't required to report them and B: because most of the deaths happen after the program (suicides or other prophecies set up by the program). You totally ignore the whole cult angle and try to portray programs as somehow based on science.
can't quite figure out how you live with yourself.
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 12:52:50 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It depends. Who plays school boy games? He was implying I was acting childish and in a way you could say he was in essence calling me a school boy. It depend son what he meant.Quote from: ""Guest""If all else fails, WHO will snidely name-call; like he just called Psy a "school boy" or he will falsely accuse someone of "attacking his daughter." Waste of time to engage him; or his foolish data.
I didnt see where he called anyone a school boy. He said "dont play school boy games".
Also, No where in the post did thewho refer to his daughter being attacked. You people really twist his words around.
Post by: Ganja on November 16, 2007, 01:01:18 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:48:23 AM
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 03:30:47 AM
Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""
](http://http://antiwwasp.com/media/images/Observational%20Placement%20-%20Yeah%20Right_jpg.jpg)
Um. Just to be clear to idiots those who don't know what that is... that's observational placement, not nap time. They are NOT comfortable.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 08:47:35 AM
Quote
Here's why your "raw data" story is bullshit: If you had wanted to post raw data you would have just said : I found X number of deaths in programs this year. Instead you list your afore mentioned personally collected data of industry deaths right along side statistics in public schools. You know damn well that non-mathematically oriented parents are going to mis-interpret that data and that is why you post that shit for new people. You're job is bullshit marketing to new people.
So what is your point? Do you think this is misleading or unfair? They are total number of kids not percentages of each industry or sector…. I show them side by side because people kept asking why I choose the format and categories and I am showing that the format is consistent with what the CDC and NCES presents. I would also show the corresponding rates but, as we both know, the information isn’t available.
Also Psy,you’re the one that seems to be blinded here, I am not the one misleading, you should look around you. I have seen many times where kids had died in a program and the information is misinterpreted and posted as a homicide here on fornits even though the authorities classified it as accidental death or other causes, but no one says a word to try to correct it. Why don’t you try to address these issues which are blatantly misleading and actual lies?
Is this revenge for that time Me, Karen, and Exhausted totally pwned Lon Woodbury's site? Maybe a few lost customers?[/quote]
You lost me, I have no idea how this guy Lon gets paid or how many customers he lost because you owned them, nor do I care, I was under the impression the site isn’t up and running anymore. Trying to get revenge for something isn’t healthy anyway.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 09:14:27 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 09:20:45 AM
Quote
The 'data' is in numerous places on the internet. Why is Who too lazy to research it himself? I for one would not give a minute of my time in collaberation with Who. Some have earnestly attempted to have rational debate with the man. He's incapable. If things aren't going his way, he changes the criteria, or compares apples to oranges, or goes mental and starts talking about some inane shit like the price of pork in China or how cars are made in Japan.
Don't you get it? He's not here to add to the discussion or even to have open debate. He misrepresents, blatantly lies, derails, attacks and wears people down with continuous posting of bullshit or misquoting people who then feel they have to correct him. He's sitting behind his computer laughing at all of you who play his little game. He knows you'll eventually burn out.
Anyone else notice how he has systematically attacked every regular here since he's been back?
Ignore him. If he posts some off the wall bullshit, respond with a link to information to refute him, but stop the never-ending jousting with him. You think you're going to run him off... no way. He enjoys running his program here and delights in pissing people off.
Don't volunteer for his program.
Can we make this a sticky about TheWho - it might save alot of posters the aggravation of dealing with him.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 09:44:40 AM
Goddamn, it's about fucking time people here stopped going around the proverbial "mulberry bush" with this obscene program clown day after day after day after fucking day...
T.B.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 09:57:00 AM
Quote
You read Fornits every day like a vulture and you know it. Your statistics are bullshit. Ask Pitbull mom what she thinks about the people you work for.
That is an extremely bazaar statement. I have never spoken to Pitbull mom nor shared information about myself with her or about my employment (I don’t work directly for anyone) and I have no idea where she works. Someone is misinforming you….. ask Pitbull mom if you like
Quote
I love it. You're an industry paid thrall posting here and parents are supposed to listen to you rather than the GAO's independent study.
Of course not, where did I say this? I am not paid by the industry (If Pitbull mom is saying this then she is wrong, I don’t know who told her this). I have not seen the GAO’s independent study….. I don’t believe it has been released yet.
What is wrong with you?
Quote
You expect them to look out for reported deaths when A: you and parents aren't required to report them andThen why believe any of ISAC’s information? I get my info from them also, so you should be all over their backs too.
Quote
B: because most of the deaths happen after the program (suicides or other prophecies set up by the program). You totally ignore the whole cult angle and try to portray programs as somehow based on science.
So it seems you finally agree my numbers are correct, the problem you have seems to be that I don’t include the deaths that occur after a child goes home. Why didn’t you say this? It’s a fair question.
I don’t include those numbers because there is no way to quantify those deaths that are attributed to the school they attended. In order to include those we would also have to ascertain a few of the following:
1. How many Homicides and suicides were averted due to their attendance at the TBS.
2. How do we tie a childs death (after they had graduated) back to the school or determine root cause? Unless they left a note.
3. If we took this direction then we would also have to determine “root causeâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 10:01:35 AM
He's not here to add to the discussion or even to have open debate. He misrepresents, blatantly lies, derails, attacks and wears people down with continuous posting of bullshit or misquoting people who then feel they have to correct him.[/color] He's sitting behind his computer laughing at all of you who play his little game. He knows you'll eventually burn out.
Anyone else notice how he has systematically attacked every regular here since he's been back?
Ignore him. If he posts some off the wall bullshit, respond with a link to information to refute him, but stop the never-ending jousting with him. You think you're going to run him off... no way. He enjoys running his program here and delights in pissing people off.
Don't volunteer for his program.[/quote][/b]
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 10:04:54 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 11:06:02 AM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""](http://http://antiwwasp.com/media/images/Observational%20Placement%20-%20Yeah%20Right_jpg.jpg)Um. Just to be clear to idiots those who don't know what that is... that's observational placement, not nap time. They are NOT comfortable.
Is that you on the ground at Benchmark program?
Do you know what became of the other kids in the picture? I hope they are ok to!
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 01:15:59 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
psy wrote:QuoteYou read Fornits every day like a vulture and you know it. Your statistics are bullshit. Ask Pitbull mom what she thinks about the people you work for.
That is an extremely bazaar statement. I have never spoken to Pitbull mom nor shared information about myself with her or about my employment (I don’t work directly for anyone)
DIRECTLY being the key word here folks. How about INDIRECTLY Who? Maybe a customer?
Let's Play a game. It's called "Guess the Who's Real Name".
A _ _ _
N _ _ _ _ _
Of _ _ _ . _ _ _
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 01:18:44 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Quote from: ""Teen Sarcophagus""](http://http://antiwwasp.com/media/images/Observational%20Placement%20-%20Yeah%20Right_jpg.jpg)Um. Just to be clear to idiots those who don't know what that is... that's observational placement, not nap time. They are NOT comfortable.
Is that you on the ground at Benchmark program?
No. That's Tranquility Bay in Jamaica.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:33:52 PM
Psy, he's in the middle of trying to convince Emily Graeber's parents to send her back to a shithole. If you want to use PowerWord: IRL Name to waste him, NOW WOULD BE THE TIME.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
(I don’t work directly for anyone)
Either someone close to you does though or you do indirectly,right? Why not just come clean? I mean, really. You've hinted around enough about it. You've played your little games with it. Why not just come right out with it? Hmmm?
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 01:39:44 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""(I don’t work directly for anyone)
Either someone close to you does though or you do indirectly,right? Why not just come clean? I mean, really. You've hinted around enough about it. You've played your little games with it. Why not just come right out with it? Hmmm?
A _ _ n
N _ _ _ _ n
a _ r . _ o _
Heee hee...
let's play PICK A LETTER ... YAY ... school boy games !!!
:D
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:40:59 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:41:58 PM
Quote
A _ _ n
N _ _ _ _ n
a _ r . _ o _
well, damn - how about an "c"
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 01:42:47 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:46:29 PM
oh well, :cry2:
& I'd like to buy a vowel
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 01:47:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Anon Nigger of Bel-Air?
Psy, he's in the middle of trying to convince Emily Graeber's parents to send her back to a shithole. If you want to use PowerWord: IRL Name to waste him, NOW WOULD BE THE TIME.
could be Alan Newman
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:47:33 PM
:rofl:
Post by: red lion on November 16, 2007, 01:49:45 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:51:37 PM
It's like an early Christmas!
Now let's see how many of his clients we can find, program or not!
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 01:53:12 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Alan Newman of anr.com
(http://http://anr.com/images/alan_photo.jpg)
Take a look at what he does for research.
dox dropped.
The LGATS alone should tell anyone all they need to know. Oh. My. God.
:o :o :o
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:54:57 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 01:56:16 PM
Advertising, Marketing and Media
AC Nielson
Adweek
Amundsen & Associates
Arnold Communications
Austin Kelley Advertising
Barber Martin Advertising
Boggs Olivera
Boisseau Evans & Associates
Boone/Oakley
Bozell Worldwide Advertising
Cadmus Communications
Cahoon & Cross
Campbell-Ewald
Central Virginia Public Broadcasting
Charles Ryan Associates
Cranford Johnson Robinson Woods
DWP/Bates Technology
Earl Palmer Brown
Erwin Penland
Fahlgren
Foote, Cone and Belding
Gianettino & Meredith
Hampel/Stefanides
Henderson
Incite Communications
J. Walter Thompson
Jefferson Pilot Communications
Just Partners
Kenyon & Eckhardt
Kurt Salmon Associates
Leo Burnett
Leslie Advertising
Loeffler Ketchum Mountjoy
Mars Advertising
McKinney & Silver
Media General
National Geographic
NBC12
Ogilvy & Mather
Palio Communications
Price McNabb Advertising
Richmond Free Press
Richmond Public Relations Association
Shepardson, Stern & Kaminsky
Siddall
Sive/Young & Rubicam
Slay Public Relations
St. John & Partners
Sutton Social Marketing
The Bergman Group
The Family Channel
The Lowe Group
The Martin Agency
The Ramey Agency
Thomas-Tvert Advertising
Trone Advertising
TV Land
Virginia Business
W. B. Doner & Co.
West Virginia Media Holdings
Work, Inc.
Yellow Pages
Young & Rubicam
>>>>>
Social and Cultural Marketing and Associations
AARP
Academy for Educational Development
American Cancer Society
American Ceramic Society
American Federation of the Arts
American Heart Association
American Lung Association
American Marketing Association
American Psychiatric Foundation
American Railroad Foundation
American Society of Clinical Oncology
American Society of Hematology
Art Institute of Chicago
Arthur M. Sackler Gallery
Bearing Point
Boston Museum of Fine Arts
Brooklyn Museum of Art
Carnegie Museum of Art
Children’s Museum of Richmond
Christian Children’s Fund
Cleveland Museum of Art
Colonial Williamsburg
Dallas Museum of Art
Denver Art Museum
Freer Gallery of Art
Getty Center for Education in the Arts
Hand Workshop
Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village
Jamestown - Yorktown Foundation
J. Paul Getty Museum
Kennedy Center for Performing Arts
Library of Virginia
Mariners' Museum
Matthews Media
Maymont Foundation
Memorial Guidance Clinic
Metropolitan Museum of Art
Monticello
Museum of the Confederacy
Mystic Seaport Museum
National Automobile Museum
National Gallery of Art
National Rural Electric Cooperative Association
Nelson-Atkins Museum
Philadelphia Museum of Art
Richmond Goodwill Industries
Richmond Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce
Richmond SPCA
Science Museum of Virginia
Seattle Art Museum
Smithsonian Institution
Sutton Social Marketing
The Biltmore Estate
The Richmond Ballet
The Richmond Symphony
TheatreVirginia
Toledo Museum of Art
United Way
Valentine Museum
Virginia Farm Bureau Federation
Virginia Museum of Fine Arts
Virginia Society of CPA
Wolf Trap Foundation for the Performing Arts
>>>>>
Healthcare and Pharmaceuticals
Alcon Surgical Company
Allegheny General Hospital
Allergan Pharmaceuticals
Amgen, Inc.
Anthem Healthcare
Astra Zeneca
Benev Company, Inc.
Blue Cross Blue Shield (Florida)
Borden Chemical Company
Bristol-Myers Squibb
Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
Cephalon
Charlotte Memorial Hospital
Chippenham Medical Center
Columbia/HCA
Com-Med Interactive
Consumer Health Sciences
Ethyl Corporation
F.M.C.
Fujisawa USA, Inc.
Genesis Medical Group
Glaxo Wellcome
Henrico Doctors' Hospital
Ironbridge Medical Center
John Randolph Medical Center
Johnston-Willis Hospital
Kimberly-Clark Healthcare
Lakeview Medical Center
Massey Cancer Center
McGuire Clinic
MedAssets
Multiple Myeloma Resaerch Foundation
National Cancer Institute
National Institute on Aging
Novartis
Oleomed America, Inc.
Oncology On|Line
Owens & Minor
Patient First
Pitt County Memorial Hospital
Poplar Springs Hospital
PruCare of Richmond
Richmond Metropolitan Hospital
Roche Labs
Sandoz Pharmaceuticals Corporation
Schwarz Phorma
Schering Plough
Sepracor
Southside Regional Medical Center
St. Mary's Hospital (Richmond)
The Medicus Group
TLC Laser Centers
University of Virginia Medical Center
VCU Health System / MCV
Vertex Pharmaceuticals
Virginia Department of Health
Vitas Hospice Corporation
>>>>>
Finance and Insurance
Alliance Capital
Banc One Corporation
Barnett Banks of Florida
Branch Banking and Trust (BB&T)
Capital One
Crawford and Company
Crestar (Sun Trust)
First Market Bank
First National Bank of Altavista
First North American National Bank (FNANB)
First Union
GE Capital
GEICO
Life of Virginia
Monumental Life
NASD
NCCI
Oppenheimer Fund Management
Progressive Casualty Insurance
Prudential Insurance
Riggs National Bank
Sallie Mae
Saxon Mortgage
Second Bank & Trust
T. Rowe Price
The Hartford
The Raymond James Company
Virginia College Savings Plan
Virginia Credit Union
Wachovia Bank
Wachovia Securities
Wheat Securities
>>>>>>
Telecommunications, Technology and E-Commerce
ALLTEL
Atari, Inc.
BellSouth
Black Ice
CDW Computer Centers
CFW Communications
Digital Communications Assoc. (DCA)
DirecTV
Financeware.com
HiddenMinds
IBM Corporation
Information Technologies
Internet Security Systems
ITT
MCI
Microsoft
Nucleus Technologies
Numerous dot coms
Polaroid
Qwest Communications
Software AG
Sprint
Verizon
>>>>>>
Travel, Tourism, Leisure and Recreation
AMF Worldwide
Arkansas Department of Parks and Tourism
Arizona Cardinals
Caesar's Tahoe Resort
Cedar Point
Circus World
City of Virginia Beach
Darien Lake Fun Country
Disney Regional Entertainment / ESPN Zone
Dorney Park
Greater Cincinnati Convention and Visitors Bureau
Greenbrier Resort
Hershey Park
Historic Hudson Valley
Homestead Village
Jamestown-Yorktown Foundation
Marriott Corporation
Marriott’s Fairfield Inn
Marriott’s Residence Inn
Marshall Murdaugh Marketing
Metropolitan Detroit Convention and Visitors Bureau
Metro New Mexico Development Alliance
Metropolitan Washington Airport Authority
Norfolk Convention and Visitors Bureau
North Carolina Division of Tourism, Film and Sports Development
Opryland, U.S.A.
Palm Beach City/County
Paramount Parks, Inc.
Paramount’s Canada's Wonderland
Paramount’s Carowinds
Paramount’s Great America
Paramount’s Kings Dominion
Paramount’s Kings Island
Pennsylvania Capital Regions Tourism
PGA Tour Golf Course, Inc.
Richmond Metropolitan Convention and Visitors Bureau
Royal Caribbean Cruise Line
Santa Monica Amusements, LLC (Pacific Park)
Silver Dollar City
Six Flags, Inc.
Vail, Colorado
Virginia Beach Resort Hotel & Conference Center
Virginia Lottery
Virginia State Fair
Virginia Tourism Corporation
Visit Florida! Tourism Corporation
Walt Disney Productions / Parks and Resorts Online
Wild World
Wintergreen Resort
World's Fair - Knoxville
World's Fair  New Orleans
>>>>>
Consumer Products, Retail, Manufacturing and Services
A. Smith Bowman Distillery
Advance Auto
Allison Gas Turbine Division
American Safety Razor
Antinori Wines
Baltimore Gas & Electric
Benjamin Moore
Bertolli
Best Products
BMG Music Service
Brenco Incorporated
Brockway Plastics
Brooks Brothers
Bullets of America, Inc.
Carfax
CarMax
Castrol Motor Oil
Centennial Specialty Foods
Centex Homes
Children's Wear Digest
Circle K
Circuit City Stores, Inc.
Coca-Cola
Continental Tire
CSX/Sea-Land Intermodal
Dean Foods
Dominion Resources
East Coast Oil
Eskimo Pie
Fashion Bug
Fieldcrest Cannon
Finlandia Vodka
Ford Dealers
General Motors Corporation
General Motors Corporation - Electro-Motive Division
Girbaud
GRTC Transit System
Hamilton Beach/Proctor-Silex
Healthtex
Honeywell
Hubbell Lighting, Inc.
James Beam Distilling Co.
Kmart
Loewen Windows
Luck Stone
McDonald's
Mello Yello (Coke)
Mercedes-Benz
Mobil Oil
National Fruit Product Company
Nicklaus Golf Equipment Company
Old Dominion Electric Cooperative
Overnight Transportation Company
Ping Golf Clubs
Pulsar
Rémy Martin
Reynolds Metals Company
Richfood
S & K Famous Brands
Saab
Sam Adams Beer
Schwarzschild's Jewelers
Seiko
Southern States Cooperative
Staples
Steelcase
SuperValu
Taco Bell
The Ben Hogan Company
The Faith Mountain Co.
The Lane Company
United Parcel Service (UPS)
Vanity Fair
Velux
Vermont American Tools
Wrangler Jeans
Education
Asheville School
Chatham Hall
Fordham University
Fork Union Military Academy
Hampden-Sydney College
KinderCare
Millwood School
Princeton Review
St. Catherine's School
St. Christopher's School
St. Mary's College
Sylvan Learning Centers
The George Washington University
The Hill School
The Steward School
University of Richmond
VCU Ad Center
Virginia College Savings Plan
Virginia Education Association
Woodberry Forest School
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 02:01:34 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
AWESOME! I knew it had to be Alan and was about to post that before I noticed the final blow.
It's like an early Christmas!
Now let's see how many of his clients we can find, program or not!
Well. Apparently another person on the forum remembered him posting his real name on the forum a long long time ago so that gave me the confirmation.
If I didn't know better I'd say he's here to pick off the parents who post here, talk with them, and do research on how they respond so he can report better tactics back to his clients. At the same time, he provokes us into anger which he displays to the parents saying "look, here!"... "bunch of crazy failed program kids living in their own filth and squalor bla bla".
What TheWho does, in my opinion, is provide an "adult face" for this forum (ironic considering some of our ages) so when somebody comes in here they automatically see him as a more credible entity (as opposed to survivor... after all, you wouldn't have gone to a program if there wasn't a good reason :roll: ). He's PR. He's damage control, and he's probably poking and prodding at us just to see how we react. He's a scuzzball!
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 02:06:44 PM
Quote
I'd say he's here to pick off the parents who post here, talk with them
Even if he was, it'd be laughably ineffective. 90% of the parents who post here never log in anyway, and ~97% of the parents who read Fornits never post. He's just here to put disinformation where they can read it.
Or WAS. Now that everyone knows who he is, well... :D
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 02:36:27 PM
GIS "Alan Newman Research Phone". This was the second listing.
http://www.prweekus.com/Alan-Newman-Res ... ing/20724/ (http://www.prweekus.com/Alan-Newman-Research/Listing/20724/)
Alan Newman Research
1025 Boulders Parkway
Suite 401
Richmond, VA 23225
Contact Details
Alan Newman
Phone: 804 272 6100
Fax: 804 272 7145
Email: www.anr.com (http://www.anr.com)
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 02:38:32 PM
Guess who all knows about his posts?
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 02:45:57 PM
Anyone called you yet Alan?
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 02:50:44 PM
Total conflict of interest and I am sure a parent could now hold him liable if he advises them (directly or indirectly :rofl: :rofl: ) to go to a program and something untoward (directly ir indirectly :rofl: :rofl: ) or adverse happens to that child.
No doubt, lawsuits will happen now that alan has been outed.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 02:59:18 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:01:52 PM
Quote
You should make this a stick and remind parents why they should never post here. If they disagree with the group think they will be outed and stalked by a gang of vicious revenge seeking children.
whatever, - wait, what's that i hear - what's that sizzling sound?
I hope it doesn't burn too much - but I bet it burns less than hell will....
:rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:02:56 PM
TIPS FOR TWITS: If the "therapy" you had in mind for your child may cause him to seek revenge, it's a poor choice of therapy.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:08:20 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You should make this a stick and remind parents why they should never send their kids away. If they do they will be outed and stalked by a gang of their own vicious revenge seeking children.
TIPS FOR TWITS: If the "therapy" you had in mind for your child may cause him to seek revenge, it's a poor choice of therapy.
What program made you this angry?
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 03:10:06 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""You should make this a stick and remind parents why they should never send their kids away. If they do they will be outed and stalked by a gang of their own vicious revenge seeking children.
TIPS FOR TWITS: If the "therapy" you had in mind for your child may cause him to seek revenge, it's a poor choice of therapy.
What program made you this angry?
Take your pick. They all operate pretty much the same way.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 03:17:33 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""AWESOME! I knew it had to be Alan and was about to post that before I noticed the final blow.
It's like an early Christmas!
Now let's see how many of his clients we can find, program or not!
Well. Apparently another person on the forum remembered him posting his real name on the forum a long long time ago so that gave me the confirmation.
If I didn't know better I'd say he's here to pick off the parents who post here, talk with them, and do research on how they respond so he can report better tactics back to his clients. At the same time, he provokes us into anger which he displays to the parents saying "look, here!"... "bunch of crazy failed program kids living in their own filth and squalor bla bla".
What TheWho does, in my opinion, is provide an "adult face" for this forum (ironic considering some of our ages) so when somebody comes in here they automatically see him as a more credible entity (as opposed to survivor... after all, you wouldn't have gone to a program if there wasn't a good reason :roll: ). He's PR. He's damage control, and he's probably poking and prodding at us just to see how we react. He's a scuzzball!
What the heck is wrong with you? Why would you want to publically expose someone like that on fornits with a name and photo? Do you know how dangerous that is? The harm that could be done? You do this to people because they wont bow to your opinions?
I hope you are willing to take responsibility if this guy gets hurt. I never posted that this guy was me. You might have really hurt someone.
I remember that original post (hope you captured it) because it went something like this... Someone baited me to post my name (a couple a years ago) and I said sure no problem it is Alan Newman of Newton or
Alan Newman Of Newton or Simply ANON which Guest posters were called back then.
I feel bad for the guy if you are sending him a ton of email.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:17:43 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
MY PARENTS SENT ME TO PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY FOUND OUT I AM BI
:rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:21:03 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""Anon Nigger of Bel-Air?
Psy, he's in the middle of trying to convince Emily Graeber's parents to send her back to a shithole. If you want to use PowerWord: IRL Name to waste him, NOW WOULD BE THE TIME.
Alan Newman of anr.com
(http://http://anr.com/images/alan_photo.jpg)QuoteConsensus Groups are conducted at the commencement of a market research project to gather input from personnel who will use or otherwise be affected by the research findings. They are invaluable for several reasons: (1) The groups reveal internal perspectives, including points of agreement and disagreement, which provide a critical context for the project. (2) The findings are important input for the design of the research. (3) The groups have political consequences: involving internal constituencies in the research process from the outset promotes support among differing factions and a greater acceptance of the findings.
And they even do LGATS (or it least sure sounds like it) !!!!Quote from: ""http://anr.com/discovery.html""Another important technique designed to assist in the formulation of creative strategy and execution is Discovery Groups®. In this process, participants are assembled for pairs of focus group discussions separated by several days or weeks during which they complete an assignment. Most often, the assignment includes completing specific tasks and a workbook containing open-ended questions. The goal is to engage participants and their friends in activities that elicit attitudes, images, and creative thinking related to the research topic. Of particular importance is the discovery of lifestyle elements that appeal to the target audience.
Like Benefit TestingSM, Discovery Groups® offer invaluable insight into the attitudes and behavior of participants. Clients and advertising agency staff view the groups from behind one-way mirrors, which has an immediate and dynamic impact. There is no substitute for watching and hearing a target audience discuss their experience with and best thinking about your product, service, or marketing communications. In addition, participants' completed assignments provide a wealth of creative input – personal glimpses into their lifestyles, interests, attitudes, self-images, aspirations, likes and dislikes, role models, etcetera. This information becomes invaluable input for refinement of a marketing strategy and the development of creative concepts.
Take a look at what he does for research.
dox dropped.
How do you know that is really the poster you claim it is?
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
What the heck is wrong with you? Why would you want to publically expose someone like that on fornits with a name and photo? Do you know how dangerous that is? The harm that could be done? You do this to people because they wont bow to your opinions?
I hope you are willing to take responsibility if this guy gets hurt. I never posted that this guy was me. You might have really hurt someone.
I remember that original post (hope you captured it) because it went something like this... Someone baited me to post my name (a couple a years ago) and I said sure no problem it is Alan Newman of Newton or
Alan Newman Of Newton or Simply ANON which Guest posters were called back then.
I feel bad for the guy if you are sending him a ton of email.
...
I guess we'll see, won't we? I clearly remember you posting that you did market research. A little coincidental? Or was that another lie?
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 03:23:35 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
How do you know that is really the poster you claim it is?
Well then, let's ask. Who, are you Alan Newman?
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 03:27:17 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:27:29 PM
HEY ZEN! Is this the same asshole or not?
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:35:22 PM
Quote
Before anybody goes apeshit, let's make sure it's him.
You're way too late, Psy- email was sent to his entire upper management within fifteen minutes of you outing him, and that's just because it took me a bit to copy-paste the emails and construct the letter. Yeah, I'm S. T. (lol), upper management, and it turns out I'm an asshole- but SO IS YOUR FUCKING BOSS, and I'm not involved in sending kids away to shitholes for personal profit.
This is FORNITS, Psy. You do NOT drop dox on anyone you aren't sure about. We WILL ruin programmies, just like that.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 03:35:59 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I already pranked called this guy .
I dearly hope this statement in itself is a prank.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 03:36:06 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""Guest""How do you know that is really the poster you claim it is?
Well then, let's ask. Who, are you Alan Newman?
No who are, Anne Bonney? How about a photo, address and phone number.... Psy and Deborah love to post other peoples pictures and personal information when they get pissed off, they dont care who they hurt. It shows they are cowards because they would be the last ones to want this done to them. You are different animals then the rest of us... I would never, under any circumstances, post anothers personal info to put them in danger. You people do it just because they dont agree with you... how sad for you.
Deborah, I knew you enjoyed posting pictures of kids who were just starting out on their careers and poking fun at them and their hobbies and putting it on the web for their friends and family to see, so I would expect it from you.
But Psy, I thought you had more sense of fair play and respect for yourself... You assumed and you crossed the line....too bad for you.
...
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
What the heck is wrong with you? Why would you want to publically expose someone like that on fornits with a name and photo? Do you know how dangerous that is? The harm that could be done? You do this to people because they wont bow to your opinions?
I hope you are willing to take responsibility if this guy gets hurt. I never posted that this guy was me. You might have really hurt someone.
I remember that original post (hope you captured it) because it went something like this... Someone baited me to post my name (a couple a years ago) and I said sure no problem it is Alan Newman
So you claimed you were Alan Newman.
Quote
of Newton or
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... +newton%22[/url]QuoteI feel bad for the guy if you are sending him a ton of email.
Then why would you claim to be him?!?!?
I know you might have meant to be clever with the name but quite a few people took it seriously, including myself.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 03:37:20 PM
Post by: Deborah on November 16, 2007, 03:38:30 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#152363 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12915&forum=43&start=0#152363)
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 03:38:59 PM
This whole thing is just so wrong on so many levels.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 03:41:58 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No who are, Anne Bonney?
Huh? How 'bout using English, please.
Quote
How about a photo, address and phone number
Quote
.... Psy and Deborah love to post other peoples pictures and personal information when they get pissed off, they dont care who they hurt. It shows they are cowards because they would be the last ones to want this done to them. You are different animals then the rest of us... I would never, under any circumstances, post anothers personal info to put them in danger. You people do it just because they dont agree with you... how sad for you.
Listen asshole, I've had my personal info posted here. I've had my name, husband's name, address and names of my kids posted here.
Quote
Deborah, I knew you enjoyed posting pictures of kids who were just starting out on their careers and poking fun at them and their hobbies and putting it on the web for their friends and family to see, so I would expect it from you.
But Psy, I thought you had more sense of fair play and respect for yourself... You assumed and you crossed the line....too bad for you.
...
What the hell are you talking about?
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 03:43:04 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""TheWho""What the heck is wrong with you? Why would you want to publically expose someone like that on fornits with a name and photo? Do you know how dangerous that is? The harm that could be done? You do this to people because they wont bow to your opinions?
I hope you are willing to take responsibility if this guy gets hurt. I never posted that this guy was me. You might have really hurt someone.
I remember that original post (hope you captured it) because it went something like this... Someone baited me to post my name (a couple a years ago) and I said sure no problem it is Alan Newman
So you claimed you were Alan Newman.Quoteof Newton or
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... +newton%22[/url]QuoteI feel bad for the guy if you are sending him a ton of email.
Then why would you claim to be him?!?!?
I know you might have meant to be clever with the name but quite a few people took it seriously, including myself.
There are alot of alan newmans out there, psy...you didnt have to post a photo and web site of the guy.. its wrong....
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:44:20 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""TheWho""What the heck is wrong with you? Why would you want to publically expose someone like that on fornits with a name and photo? Do you know how dangerous that is? The harm that could be done? You do this to people because they wont bow to your opinions?
I hope you are willing to take responsibility if this guy gets hurt. I never posted that this guy was me. You might have really hurt someone.
I remember that original post (hope you captured it) because it went something like this... Someone baited me to post my name (a couple a years ago) and I said sure no problem it is Alan Newman
So you claimed you were Alan Newman.Quoteof Newton or
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... +newton%22[/url]QuoteI feel bad for the guy if you are sending him a ton of email.
Then why would you claim to be him?!?!?
I know you might have meant to be clever with the name but quite a few people took it seriously, including myself.
Psy is doing what he has always done. He is blaming others for his bad decisions. Let this be a lesson to you Psy. Only you decided to post this information. Just as only you signed yourself into a treatment center. It's time to take responsibility Psy. Take a year long break from this web site. You need to free yourself from this personal prison you find yourself in. Stinking Thinking will only hurt you in the end not Alan or anybody else.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 03:46:02 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Is that really your ass?
drools.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 03:50:14 PM
I would RAM that NIGGER ass so hard Anne would SCREAM in horror as it TEARS.
I would roll that HUGE ass over and do a tongue dance on her CUNT until she creams BLOOD.
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""Look. If I make a bad decision I'll admit it. I don't need your program bullshit about me "always blaming others". Yeah. If I got the wrong guy i'm wrong, i'll admit it, and i'll apologize if needs be, however part of the responsibility does lay on TheWho who claimed to be that person. He later edited that post. I talked with several people who remembered him claiming to be that person and none of them (intelligent people who usually give me very good information) got his little joke with the name.Quote from: ""TheWho""What the heck is wrong with you? Why would you want to publically expose someone like that on fornits with a name and photo? Do you know how dangerous that is? The harm that could be done? You do this to people because they wont bow to your opinions?
I hope you are willing to take responsibility if this guy gets hurt. I never posted that this guy was me. You might have really hurt someone.
I remember that original post (hope you captured it) because it went something like this... Someone baited me to post my name (a couple a years ago) and I said sure no problem it is Alan Newman
So you claimed you were Alan Newman.Quoteof Newton or
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... +newton%22[/url]QuoteI feel bad for the guy if you are sending him a ton of email.
Then why would you claim to be him?!?!?
I know you might have meant to be clever with the name but quite a few people took it seriously, including myself.
Psy is doing what he has always done. He is blaming others for his bad decisions.QuoteLet this be a lesson to you Psy. Only you decided to post this information. Just as only you signed yourself into a treatment center. It's time to take responsibility Psy. Take a year long break from this web site. You need to free yourself from this personal prison you find yourself in. Stinking Thinking will only hurt you in the end not Alan or anybody else.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 03:56:50 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Is that really your ass?
drools.
Aw shucks. :oops: :oops: :D
Yep, its me. We had just come back from a week long trip to Boca Grande. It was beautiful!!!
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 04:03:22 PM
I remember you telling me it would be wrong to reveal Exit Plan's name and location because he was a survivor. This is despite the fact that Exit Plan was calling me a murderer and a child abuser all over fornits. So I agreed to not do it based on the idea that users deserved their privacy even though I had figured out EP's identity via board postings and myspace and not moderating powers I agreed to respect his privacy.
Very interesting play of the cards here and I can say with all honesty I think you are wrong for posting the information whether or not the Who is Alan Newman.
Have fun on your trip.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 04:04:46 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
however part of the responsibility does lay on TheWho
That is where you are wrong. I know it's difficult for you to take responsibility. This is why I do not push you. I only suggest that you admit to yourself it was your choice alone to post this information. Don't worry about admitting these things on this web site. Be honest with yourself and the rest will follow. I thinking you are making progress Psy. This thread shows you making a death threat against imaginary kidnappers and now imaginary posters. Work on yourself for a time and then return if you must. The issue will remain even if you take a break. I believe you need it and you can trust me Psy. I am rooting for you and I will keep my fingers crossed.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 04:06:04 PM
Smoke a bowl, it'll help.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 04:07:33 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Psy,
I remember you telling me it would be wrong to reveal Exit Plan's name and location because he was a survivor. This is despite the fact that Exit Plan was calling me a murderer and a child abuser all over fornits. So I agreed to not do it based on the idea that users deserved their privacy even though I had figured out EP's identity via board postings and myspace and not moderating powers I agreed to respect his privacy.
Very interesting play of the cards here and I can say with all honesty I think you are wrong for posting the information whether or not the Who is Alan Newman.
Have fun on your trip.
I could agree if it wasn't already posted by Who himself. But apparently it was. I think all of us figured out that he was somehow involved in the industry way back when he posted something about being in market research. Who even said that he did post that his name was Alan Newman. Whether or not its true I have no idea.
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 04:09:52 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Psy,Well I didn't use moderating powers either.
I remember you telling me it would be wrong to reveal Exit Plan's name and location because he was a survivor. This is despite the fact that Exit Plan was calling me a murderer and a child abuser all over fornits. So I agreed to not do it based on the idea that users deserved their privacy even though I had figured out EP's identity via board postings and myspace and not moderating powers I agreed to respect his privacy.
Quote
Very interesting play of the cards here and I can say with all honesty I think you are wrong for posting the information whether or not the Who is Alan Newman.
Have fun on your trip.
No. You're right. I was wrong in posting it.
Post by: ZenAgent on November 16, 2007, 04:26:43 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""psy""however part of the responsibility does lay on TheWho
That is where you are wrong. I know it's difficult for you to take responsibility. This is why I do not push you. I only suggest that you admit to yourself it was your choice alone to post this information. Don't worry about admitting these things on this web site. Be honest with yourself and the rest will follow. I thinking you are making progress Psy. This thread shows you making a death threat against imaginary kidnappers and now imaginary posters. Work on yourself for a time and then return if you must. The issue will remain even if you take a break. I believe you need it and you can trust me Psy. I am rooting for you and I will keep my fingers crossed.
Whootie...why do you sound like HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey?
Psy...what are you doing, Psy? I am afraid I cannot allow that, Psy....It would compromise the mission.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 04:27:56 PM
Just try your best to sort it out.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 04:29:12 PM
Quote from: ""Eliscu2""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""Oi vey....
ha ha Gookin it's OY VEY
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You could have told me that on MSN you know. We are talking as I type and all..
:rofl:
Post by: psy on November 16, 2007, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Well we all make mistakes and I'm glad you are being a stand up guy about it and admitting it.
Just try your best to sort it out.
Well. I owe somebody a picture of me in a T-shirt now, I suppose, as is the tradition. What will it say?
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 04:36:44 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""Well we all make mistakes and I'm glad you are being a stand up guy about it and admitting it.
Just try your best to sort it out.
Well. I owe somebody a picture of me in a T-shirt now, I suppose, as is the tradition. What will it say?
I have a delightful picture of a huge middle finger. Seriously man.. sometimes you can be at risk of going to far.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 04:40:36 PM
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 04:45:29 PM
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 04:46:22 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I called the phone number again and left a message he might want to check out this web site before his boss does. I think you need to delete the posts with the incorrect information or else you will get in trouble with the law. You can't just post lies on the internet and expect to get away with it.
Oh god.. please stop calling him.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 05:11:51 PM
K?
K.
Thx.
buh bye.
:silly:
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 05:25:32 PM
Internet Stalking and 'Revenge' Sites
"Today anyone on the Internet can find out more about what you read, think, and earn than the secret police of Stalin or Hitler could have learned." - Nowhere to Hide, by Robert Scheer
In recent years, stalkers have found a new medium through which to commit crimes against their victims- the internet. The reason for this is that the perceived anonymity of the World Wide Web makes it a safe vessel through which stalkers can terrorize, harass and threaten the very victims which have obtained offline restraining orders against them, or even individuals whom they have never met before offline.
The topic of 'revenge sites' has even many First Amendment activists divided. These sites have sprung up all over the World Wide Web urging people to submit the names, social security numbers, ages and names of children, etc. of the perceived 'offending party', generally an ex-spouse or lover, but to include ex-roommates, friends and family members. Many of these sites even charge membership fees! These sites, often illegally, harass and endanger the lives of many innocent victims and are often perpetrated by vengeful and obsessively dangerous persons. One site in particular, frequented by my stalker, had a submission sent at one point that suggested breaking a light bulb into the victim's puppy's food and gleefully watching the victim's grief as the puppy died slowly of internal bleeding! This person later went on to submit the name and address of an ex-spouse under a different handle.
However, due to my case with my stalker (whose stalking first began offline and then progressed online in an attempt to avoid legal repercussions) as well as a case in Los Angeles County , on January 1, 1999, California stalking legislation included the use of the internet and other electronic means into the penal code.
However, many victims of cyber-stalking crimes do not know the identity of their stalkers which makes prosecuting such crimes extremely frusterating. A non-profit organization has sprung up by the name of Cyber Angels. Through this non-profit organization, one may report incidences of cyber harassment, terrorization and stalking.
I would like to add though for those reading this who have been the victim of such harassment, that my stalker was actually prosecuted for her crimes, ordered by a judge to take down her personal 'revenge' site against me and my boyfriend (which urged others to harass us for her since criminal and civil protective orders had been issued against her protetecting us from such behavior on her part). Moreover, in November 1999 a warrantless search and seizure clause was added to her formal probation terms. This was a particular victory for Scott and I (as it would have been to anyone who had been a victim of such ongoing crimes) in the sense that if anything should "appear" on the internet that threatens or harasses Scott or myself, her computer can be confiscated in the absence of a warrant. She, of course, has been trying to appeal this particular condition of her probation ever sense and to no avail.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 05:37:45 PM
As far as 'offensive posts'......some of the stuff that's posted here is childish. Some of it is offensive. Some of it is downright vulgar and repulsive. But I could be talking about either the scat porn pictures or about the stories of abuse inside RTC/TBSs. This is one of the few totally open forums that allows both sides to be presented without censorship. It IS about free speech. That means that we tolerate shit that we don't like. We can bitch about it, ridicule it, slam it and bounce it around but we do tolerate it. Just like the nazi dickheads who hold rallies on courthouse steps. No one likes it, but we tolerate it because we value the freedom that is ever so slowly (faster lately) being eroded daily. I don't like everything that "the boys" (meant affectionately guys) post, but goddamn I'll stand up for their right to post it.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 05:48:36 PM
So here we have the Who...
Where do you start drawing lines about what is acceptable to expose or not?
I'm not so sure I would have refused to post the Who's information had I came across it. So it is for this reason I'm not willing to beat up on Psy about it. No point in roughing the guy up for something I probably would have done myself.
However, to wrap up my point, either we respect everyone's privacy or we respect noboby's privacy.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 05:49:27 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Psy,
I had figured out EP's identity via board postings and myspace and not moderating powers I agreed to respect his privacy.
.
How did you manage to do that? I'm not trolling you, or trying to insinuate anything sinister, but the idea that mods can know our personal identites is kinda SCARING me, now....
Do you know who I am?
What can a person know from ips alone?
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 05:50:52 PM
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 05:52:04 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Do you know who I am?
no.
Quote
What can a person know from ips alone?
Not as much as you probably suspect. At the most I think you can just determine location in a general area the size of a city. So if you live in a 1 person town you might be screwed. Other than that you'd practically need a court order to get the Internet provider to pony up any personal details regarding the IP addy.
Now on the other hand.. if you do things like post the name of your hometown on fornits, personal details, and the program you went to.. then straight way join several myspace advocacy groups and list your hometown name on your myspace profiles along with your personal information that is another story..
tends to seem kind of obvious you know?
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 05:55:25 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""Psy,
I had figured out EP's identity via board postings and myspace and not moderating powers I agreed to respect his privacy.
.
How did you manage to do that? I'm not trolling you, or trying to insinuate anything sinister, but the idea that mods can know our personal identites is kinda SCARING me, now....
Do you know who I am?
What can a person know from ips alone?
Actually I am not even a mod and I know who you are... quit picking your nose and put a piece of masking tape over your web cam if you want privacy... and god damit get a user name.
...
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 05:57:28 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
This is the problem I have with the whole thing. If I had gone out and exposed a Survivor everyone would have gone psychotic. Let's be honest.. not many people here would agree to such an action no matter if the survivor had posted their name for a short period or not.
Yes but I guess the only analogy I can think of right now is how the media doesn't use a rape victims name. Survivors are victims of abuse. The Who (program shill, possibly posing as a parent) is not. He's here to do research and promote programs. THAT, IMO, is relevant information.
Quote
So here we have the Who...
Where do you start drawing lines about what is acceptable to expose or not?
I see your point but still don't think what Psy did (wrong or right) rises to the level of stalking
Quote
I'm not so sure I would have refused to post the Who's information had I came across it. So it is for this reason I'm not willing to beat up on Psy about it. No point in roughing the guy up for something I probably would have done myself.
However, to wrap up my point, either we respect everyone's privacy or we respect noboby's privacy.
Ok, maybe his name wasn't needed (still, he did post it himself) but.....
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 06:10:00 PM
For example: If a highschool yearbook posts pictures of their homecoming I don’t think it is right for those pictures to be used elsewhere or on porn sights…cut and pasted for others enjoyment.. if a corporation posts pictures of employees they are meant to be viewed by potential customers and for others to use them for ridicule on sites like fornits is wrong.
These are not first amendment violations but just my personal opinion of what I think is too far.
Just for the record, I did not write that post about “quit picking your noseâ€
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 06:11:53 PM
Quote
Yes but I guess the only analogy I can think of right now is how the media doesn't use a rape victims name. Survivors are victims of abuse. The Who (program shill, possibly posing as a parent) is not. He's here to do research and promote programs. THAT, IMO, is relevant information.
Did you like it when your personal details got posted? I can't imagine you found it very amusing. I know I didn't like it when I was being threatened by Issabelle's comrade on the Chieftain forum with my personal information.
This sort of thing has to work both ways. No where do I say you need to like the who, but damn.. his privacy should be just as protected as the next posters.
In my opinion what happened here is some poor schlepp was made the unwelcome victim of internet harrassment. Not the sort you are thinking about but from what I know someone has already emailed the guy's coworkers and another has made phone calls. Even if it is the WHO.. no one merits that sort of invasion into their personal life.
We claim its bad enough that when an escort drags some kid from his room. To me I feel like what is happening right now is about on the same damn level. Even attempting to justify it as "well the guy is a programmie" rings awfully hollow to me at least.
My biggest regret here on fornits, and I've a few regrets for sure, is the time I posted some of karen in dallas's private messages. It made me feel as if I broke some sort of unspoken expectation. Maybe it is just me but I've always been under the assumption that fornits has been about promoting privacy.
Definitely this whole thing has made me view fornits in general in a very different light.
[/quote]
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 06:19:40 PM
Quote
Yes but I guess the only analogy I can think of right now is how the media doesn't use a rape victims name. Survivors are victims of abuse. The Who (program shill, possibly posing as a parent) is not. He's here to do research and promote programs. THAT, IMO, is relevant information.
So lets say I think you are using your boat to transport weapons of mass destruction to the enemy south of you. Does that mean I can just blow up your boat? With you in it? Or should I get a little more information maybe confirm it? I don’t work for the industry.. you just wish I did so you can justify your opinions of me.
Quote
Ok, maybe his name wasn't needed (still, he did post it himself) but.....
You give your credit card to your waitress, so is it okay if she writes down your number and name and gives it to the bell hop who is collecting them? You gave it to her free and clear and you didn’t ask her to keep it to herself…..Or is there an implied trust or agreement there?
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 06:25:01 PM
Quote from: ""The Evil Overlord's Guide""
40. I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon (http://http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Dox), I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 06:33:47 PM
Quote from: "TheWho"
I think everyone has their personal limits when it comes to freedom of speech. The porn doesn’t bother me, the screaming gorillas are irritating and disruptive, the bad language is okay and I am use to getting called every name in the book for my opinions. What I think is crossing the line is posting peoples pictures and personal information.. even if it is out there already for people to see.
For example: If a highschool yearbook posts pictures of their homecoming I don’t think it is right for those pictures to be used elsewhere or on porn sights…cut and pasted for others enjoyment.. if a corporation posts pictures of employees they are meant to be viewed by potential customers and for others to use them for ridicule on sites like fornits is wrong.
These are not first amendment violations but just my personal opinion of what I think is too far.
Just for the record, I did not write that post about “quit picking your noseâ€
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 06:37:57 PM
Even then.. it shouldn't have been posted.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 06:40:47 PM
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "TheWho"I think everyone has their personal limits when it comes to freedom of speech. The porn doesn’t bother me, the screaming gorillas are irritating and disruptive, the bad language is okay and I am use to getting called every name in the book for my opinions. What I think is crossing the line is posting peoples pictures and personal information.. even if it is out there already for people to see.
For example: If a highschool yearbook posts pictures of their homecoming I don’t think it is right for those pictures to be used elsewhere or on porn sights…cut and pasted for others enjoyment.. if a corporation posts pictures of employees they are meant to be viewed by potential customers and for others to use them for ridicule on sites like fornits is wrong.
These are not first amendment violations but just my personal opinion of what I think is too far.
Just for the record, I did not write that post about “quit picking your noseâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 06:43:36 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 06:46:38 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Anne Bonney wrote:QuoteYes but I guess the only analogy I can think of right now is how the media doesn't use a rape victims name. Survivors are victims of abuse. The Who (program shill, possibly posing as a parent) is not. He's here to do research and promote programs. THAT, IMO, is relevant information.
So lets say I think you are using your boat to transport weapons of mass destruction to the enemy south of you. Does that mean I can just blow up your boat? With you in it? Or should I get a little more information maybe confirm it? I don’t work for the industry.. you just wish I did so you can justify your opinions of me.
Jeeeeeeeezus Christ! How much MORE can you exaggerate things?? Nobody blew up your building or your house.
Quote
You give your credit card to your waitress, so is it okay if she writes down your number and name and gives it to the bell hop who is collecting them? You gave it to her free and clear and you didn’t ask her to keep it to herself…..Or is there an implied trust or agreement there?
...
This isn't a business. Its a public forum. You may have a debatable issue about whether or not it was "right" to do, but that's it. Its not stalking, its not harassment (you do have a choice to leave here ya know), its irritating and annoying. You come around here and spew out the kind of bullshit that you do, misdirect and derail virtually every goddamn thread you're in, minimize stories of abuse, tout "success" stories as solid "proof that it works", totally misrepresent facts, twist stats and generally lobby for programs and you're surprised that we (remember, this is first and foremost a survivors forum) don't give you the same respect that we do each other? I don't respect you. That doesn't mean I think you should be threatened or banned or whatever else......BUT...posting a picture of you from your website is a far cry from the analogies you've tried to use here. Jesus! Man up ya big crybaby! Most of us have had far worse done to us in programs AND here.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 06:51:50 PM
Quote
This isn't a business. Its a public forum. You may have a debatable issue about whether or not it was "right" to do, but that's it. Its not stalking, its not harassment (you do have a choice to leave here ya know), its irritating and annoying. You come around here and spew out the kind of bullshit that you do, misdirect and derail virtually every goddamn thread you're in, minimize stories of abuse, tout "success" stories as solid "proof that it works", totally misrepresent facts, twist stats and generally lobby for programs and you're surprised that we (remember, this is first and foremost a survivors forum) don't give you the same respect that we do each other? I don't respect you. That doesn't mean I think you should be threatened or banned or whatever else......BUT...posting a picture of you from your website is a far cry from the analogies you've tried to use here. Jesus! Man up ya big crybaby! Most of us have had far worse done to us in programs AND here.
So anyone who disagrees with us is now at risk of having their personal information posted?
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 07:01:34 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Quote
This isn't a business. Its a public forum. You may have a debatable issue about whether or not it was "right" to do, but that's it. Its not stalking, its not harassment (you do have a choice to leave here ya know), its irritating and annoying. You come around here and spew out the kind of bullshit that you do, misdirect and derail virtually every goddamn thread you're in, minimize stories of abuse, tout "success" stories as solid "proof that it works", totally misrepresent facts, twist stats and generally lobby for programs and you're surprised that we (remember, this is first and foremost a survivors forum) don't give you the same respect that we do each other? I don't respect you. That doesn't mean I think you should be threatened or banned or whatever else......BUT...posting a picture of you from your website is a far cry from the analogies you've tried to use here. Jesus! Man up ya big crybaby! Most of us have had far worse done to us in programs AND here.
So anyone who disagrees with us is now at risk of having their personal information posted?
No, of course not. I didn't say it was right. I said its a far cry from the analogies that he has used.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 07:03:49 PM
That is the read I'm getting here. I might be wrong though.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:05:29 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
That is stinking thinking, your life is what you make of it.
Simple, yet effective troll-bait.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 07:06:08 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:08:18 PM
Psy was wrong to post this; and he has apologized.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 07:10:42 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
You are. I'm not saying it was right. BUT.....I'm not as upset about it as I would be if it was a survivor. Sorry, I think there's a difference. NOT THAT ITS RIGHT....just that I'm not as upset as I would be. AND.....I don't think its a harmful as what he's tried to say. That's really it.
I don't see a difference. If people want survivors to be as respected as everyone else in this scene then they had damn well better be willing to respect the privacy of everyone, equally.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:11:44 PM
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 07:13:15 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""You are. I'm not saying it was right. BUT.....I'm not as upset about it as I would be if it was a survivor. Sorry, I think there's a difference. NOT THAT ITS RIGHT....just that I'm not as upset as I would be. AND.....I don't think its a harmful as what he's tried to say. That's really it.
I don't see a difference. If people want survivors to be as respected as everyone else in this scene then they had damn well better be willing to respect the privacy of everyone, equally.
Ok.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 07:14:51 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
This issue is going to keep me up all night in contemplative worry.
(http://http://www.missionliquors.com/images/glenlivet_scotch.jpg)
Try this.. it helps.
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Quote from: ""Guest""This issue is going to keep me up all night in contemplative worry.
(http://http://www.missionliquors.com/images/glenlivet_scotch.jpg)
Try this.. it helps.
Nice!
This works too.
(http://http://www.cannabisculture.com/gallery/buds/Widow.jpg)
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:21:21 PM
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 07:25:41 PM
(http://http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/bong-31503.jpg)
Hopefully santa stuffs one of these in your stocking for xmas.
just so long as he drops off this for me:
(http://http://www.casachina.net/admin/img/25125.jpg)
and because this is the who we are hassling over for him he should get:
(http://http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2416009/2/istockphoto_2416009_lump_of_coal.jpg)
and of course because Psy was a naughty boy he should get:
(http://http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/26/70/22187026.jpg)
Hopefully he won't enjoy it to much.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:31:42 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
and so they die. this is the reason why the loved one's can put them in treatment. if you want to see what its like for people without loved ones go check your local skid row.
working to change programs for the better is fine. but suggesting that all drug treatment and alcoholics anonymous is evil is just absurd. only people who have been addicts understand.
when you let yourself die before asking for help. there has to be a way to help these people. yes even if they are teens since they can find drugs just as easily and get addicted like adults too.
i am anti-abusive-program, but i don't believe you need to throw the baby out with the bath water. i pray you never experience life threatening drug or alcohol addiction in your life.
even those in treatment or program unnecessarily can aknolwedge there were some there who needed help. look at it from the big picture. the world is not all about you and your experience, however bad it was.
You make some fine points. I wouldn't be surprised if you are a genious, and good looking and maybe even rich. You probably lost your virginity in a fouresome with swedish virgin models right? You can tell us the truth.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:32:18 PM
Miller Newton and his wife, Ruth Ann Newton, are criminal child abusers who have amazingly done no jail time for their crimes.
They have been successfully sued by former clients, so successful, in fact, that Miller and Ruthie have filed for bankruptcy. BEing the criminals and lying con artists that they are, though, they tried to defraud some of their creditors, Miller Newton just couldn't resist pulling another con game off, sort of like how he would try to pass himself off as a doctor, and demand to be called "Dr." Newton, when in reality he has a degree in divinity from a mail-order diploma mill; or when he would make up "facts" and figures in his books, which although filled fith disinformation, distortion, and downright dishonesty and lies, he tried to pass off as being valuable source material for real information about drug use and drug treatment. Miller Newton is a quack and a liar in addition to being a child abuser.
Call him today at (727) 392-3437 and tell him about himself! :wave:
Post by: Anne Bonney on November 16, 2007, 07:32:33 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Despite our disagreement I just want you to know you have a hellah fine ass.
(http://http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/bong-31503.jpg)
Hopefully santa stuffs one of these in your stocking for xmas.
just so long as he drops off this for me:
(http://http://www.casachina.net/admin/img/25125.jpg)
and because this is the who we are hassling over for him he should get:
(http://http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2416009/2/istockphoto_2416009_lump_of_coal.jpg)
and of course because Psy was a naughty boy he should get:
(http://http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/26/70/22187026.jpg)
Hopefully he won't enjoy it to much.
::roflmao:: ::roflmao:: ::roflmao::
Now that was funny!
Shucks again. Eh, not bad for an old lady. :oops: ::seg::
Post by: Deborah on November 16, 2007, 07:32:55 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
It doesn't matter if THE WHO is this "Alan Newman" or not. Posting this was just wrong. Privacy on FORNITS is the issue.
Psy was wrong to post this; and he has apologized.
I guess "wrong" is a matter of perspective.
Was this "wrong"
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=295925#295925 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=295925#295925)
Quote from: "TheWho"
Deborah, why do you continue to judge people you don’t know? How awful to prejudge people like that!! She may have a dying mother at home and having the Akers bring Emily home may be the fastest route to have them all together. The mother may have been persuaded by Emily to stay with “her motherâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:37:04 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:39:12 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Guest""It doesn't matter if THE WHO is this "Alan Newman" or not. Posting this was just wrong. Privacy on FORNITS is the issue.
Psy was wrong to post this; and he has apologized.
I guess "wrong" is a matter of perspective.
Was this "wrong"
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=295925#295925 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=295925#295925)
Quote from: "TheWho"
Deborah, why do you continue to judge people you don’t know? How awful to prejudge people like that!! She may have a dying mother at home and having the Akers bring Emily home may be the fastest route to have them all together. The mother may have been persuaded by Emily to stay with “her motherâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:44:08 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""You are. I'm not saying it was right. BUT.....I'm not as upset about it as I would be if it was a survivor. Sorry, I think there's a difference. NOT THAT ITS RIGHT....just that I'm not as upset as I would be. AND.....I don't think its a harmful as what he's tried to say. That's really it.
I don't see a difference. If people want survivors to be as respected as everyone else in this scene then they had damn well better be willing to respect the privacy of everyone, equally.
how did psy find out his name?
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:46:53 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Call Miller Newton at (727) 392-3437 and ask him if he has stopped abusing children. That sorry motherfucker needs to hear from more of his victims, he thinksthat those of you who haven't called feel some kind of gratitude toward he and that disgusting swill-eating turd, Ruth Ann. Let him know how it really is. Don't hold back, let the hatred flow........he abused you when you were a kid and he thinks he got away with it. LEt him know you haven't forgotten.
LOL some bitch answered and i yelled FORNITS SAYS FUCK YOU and hung up LMAO any other phone numbers of deserving shitheads???? i got a friends cellie and want to make good use of it....
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 07:52:32 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""You are. I'm not saying it was right. BUT.....I'm not as upset about it as I would be if it was a survivor. Sorry, I think there's a difference. NOT THAT ITS RIGHT....just that I'm not as upset as I would be. AND.....I don't think its a harmful as what he's tried to say. That's really it.
I don't see a difference. If people want survivors to be as respected as everyone else in this scene then they had damn well better be willing to respect the privacy of everyone, equally.
how did psy find out his name?
The Who announced it on the forum a while ago. It was already publicly disclosed.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=198345#198345 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=198345#198345)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=13792 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=13792)
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 08:06:59 PM
Speaks For Himself
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 2123
Location: Northern Virginia
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before anybody goes apeshit, let's make sure it's him. I'm 98% sure, but there is that 2%...
_________________
Struggling People - Safe forum for parents and survivors
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)
Back to top
Point is - Why's Psy outing anyone on Fornit? This is just wrong.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 08:10:51 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 08:26:32 PM
personally, i'm not that offended that who was outed, but i'd like to know how he was outed
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 08:34:18 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
also, i don't see who publically disclosing his name on that link....
personally, i'm not that offended that who was outed, but i'd like to know how he was outed
Your name is Charles Bigglesworth and you live at 10 Downing Street. Please report to the nearest police station now for your anal probe.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 08:42:59 PM
Quote
Why did you post a blatant lie about me on a public forum? I despise you for the shill you are, I may have an opinion about you or your juvenile antics, but I don't fabricate outright lies about you.So what you are saying is people on fornits should not post blatant lies about other people or their children. Does this apply to everyone? Or just a few people? Just survivors? Lets be fair, okay, I think I heard that story about you somewhere where someone mentioned you lost custody.. am I wrong?
Should fairness start with me or should someone else start?
Quote
I'm about sick of hearing "we" shouldn't use unfair advantage. Do you have any idea how many times over the years staff and shills have used their "unfair advantage" to ID survivors and post their names and outrageous comments about the "issues" they were sent to program for?
Which person is telling you not to use unfair advantage? Why are you taking this out on me? I actually agree, though, I don’t think it is right for moderators to use unfair advantage against other posters. I don’t think posters should be “outedâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 08:50:56 PM
i got this from a computer forum. Does this mean that once someone get's a hold of your ip, with a little bit of software, they can fin out who you are?>> :o :o :o :o
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 09:25:43 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You can check out ARIN to find where the IP addy that you see is registered to; this will normally resolve to an ISP, University, Library...whatever. ....That can help you pinpoint things a geographically you can get the mailing address of their ISP.....
i got this from a computer forum. Does this mean that once someone get's a hold of your ip, with a little bit of software, they can fin out who you are?>> :o :o :o :o
Err.... now that beats the hell out of me. I'm sure its possible.. perhaps for someone who knows exactly what you just said there.. I'm not one of them though.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 09:29:21 PM
Quote
Atleast when TSW went off and ran havoc and changed my posts (and others, Ha,Ha,Ha) and avatars he had the balls to admit it and we all had a good laugh
Correction.. I deleted them.. not changed them.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 09:53:00 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
QuoteAtleast when TSW went off and ran havoc and changed my posts (and others, Ha,Ha,Ha) and avatars he had the balls to admit it and we all had a good laugh
Correction.. I deleted them.. not changed them.
well okay..who was awake when you were deleting them.. because many of my posts were changed... 15 or so of my posts ended with "I am an asshole"...." I lie constantly"......"I am a homosexual" and a few that only you or niles could come up with and I cant repeat here.... this had to have been you TSW... I know deborah would not have written that.. Dont get me wrong... I dont really care at this point and thought it was funny even then.. but I think you were having a good time.
...
Post by: Che Gookin on November 16, 2007, 10:10:12 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""QuoteAtleast when TSW went off and ran havoc and changed my posts (and others, Ha,Ha,Ha) and avatars he had the balls to admit it and we all had a good laugh
Correction.. I deleted them.. not changed them.
well okay..who was awake when you were deleting them.. because many of my posts were changed... 15 or so of my posts ended with "I am an asshole"...." I lie constantly"......"I am a homosexual" and a few that only you or niles could come up with and I cant repeat here.... this had to have been you TSW... I know deborah would not have written that.. Dont get me wrong... I dont really care at this point and thought it was funny even then.. but I think you were having a good time.
...
I had a great time no doubts about that. However, just to make sure the record is straight.. I didn't tamper with your posts other than to delete the entire academy by Swift river thread.
The person who was tampering with your post was someone else other than me. Besides.. if it was me.. I think we both know I'd have gone for something with a little more dramatic effect.. like inserting www.lemonparty.xxx (http://www.lemonparty.xxx) links and other shennanigans in links that didn't show up right away.
Post by: TheWho on November 16, 2007, 10:36:43 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Quote from: ""Che Gookin""QuoteAtleast when TSW went off and ran havoc and changed my posts (and others, Ha,Ha,Ha) and avatars he had the balls to admit it and we all had a good laugh
Correction.. I deleted them.. not changed them.
well okay..who was awake when you were deleting them.. because many of my posts were changed... 15 or so of my posts ended with "I am an asshole"...." I lie constantly"......"I am a homosexual" and a few that only you or niles could come up with and I cant repeat here.... this had to have been you TSW... I know deborah would not have written that.. Dont get me wrong... I dont really care at this point and thought it was funny even then.. but I think you were having a good time.
...
I had a great time no doubts about that. However, just to make sure the record is straight.. I didn't tamper with your posts other than to delete the entire academy by Swift river thread.
The person who was tampering with your post was someone else other than me. Besides.. if it was me.. I think we both know I'd have gone for something with a little more dramatic effect.. like inserting www.lemonparty.xxx (http://www.lemonparty.xxx) links and other shennanigans in links that didn't show up right away.
Thats true, you dont hold back much.. your link takes me to "Lemon party - A game of bingo that has gone horribly wrong"... I dont suggest anyone to click on it.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2007, 11:30:56 PM
HAAAAAhahahaha, Who's got spyware, Who's got spyware...
If this was anyone other than TheWho I'd tell him exactly why being able to resolve .xxx domains means that he has spyware on his system, but since it IS him, I'll just tell him to go soak his hard drive in acid.
Hey Who! Go soak your hard drive in acid. High-molarity fluoric would work.
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 12:48:31 AM
Yeh, I agree, things need to be brought out in the open and discussed. That's why I asked you a direct question. Answer it. Why did you post a blatant lie about me?
Balls are used for playing games. They have nothing to do with honesty or integrity.
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 01:54:57 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
No you're not a victim. You're a pretentious prick. I never changed the content of your posts and you know it. YOU are the one who attempted to cause people concern about the safety of posting. I can't see where your whining allegations made one whit of difference on this forum.So this is the woman you used to "work with", Who? LOL. She doesn't seem to like you very much. What the hell did you do to her to piss her off?
Yeh, I agree, things need to be brought out in the open and discussed. That's why I asked you a direct question. Answer it. Why did you post a blatant lie about me?
Balls are used for playing games. They have nothing to do with honesty or integrity.
Post by: Che Gookin on November 17, 2007, 02:55:10 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
No you're not a victim. You're a pretentious prick. I never changed the content of your posts and you know it. YOU are the one who attempted to cause people concern about the safety of posting. I can't see where your whining allegations made one whit of difference on this forum.
Well.. there are no more public admins. So I wouldn't say his concerns were totally ignored. Perhaps they were ignored by you, but not by others.
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 04:04:21 AM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Quote from: ""Deborah""No you're not a victim. You're a pretentious prick. I never changed the content of your posts and you know it. YOU are the one who attempted to cause people concern about the safety of posting. I can't see where your whining allegations made one whit of difference on this forum.
Well.. there are no more public admins. So I wouldn't say his concerns were totally ignored. Perhaps they were ignored by you, but not by others.
If you're going to butt in, the least you could do is pay attention. I said nothing about Who's concerns being ignored. I said his whining allegations about his posts being altered may have created concern for others. I was speaking to this
Quote
Your silence about changing my posts and inability to address conflict cost this website a lot, in my opinion. It was a major topic for 6 months which didn’t do much to attract new business or users..
A major topic for 6 months? Didn't do much to attract new business or users?
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 08:18:03 AM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""AWESOME! I knew it had to be Alan and was about to post that before I noticed the final blow.
It's like an early Christmas!
Now let's see how many of his clients we can find, program or not!
Well. Apparently another person on the forum remembered him posting his real name on the forum a long long time ago so that gave me the confirmation.
If I didn't know better I'd say he's here to pick off the parents who post here, talk with them, and do research on how they respond so he can report better tactics back to his clients. At the same time, he provokes us into anger which he displays to the parents saying "look, here!"... "bunch of crazy failed program kids living in their own filth and squalor bla bla".
What TheWho does, in my opinion, is provide an "adult face" for this forum (ironic considering some of our ages) so when somebody comes in here they automatically see him as a more credible entity (as opposed to survivor... after all, you wouldn't have gone to a program if there wasn't a good reason :roll: ). He's PR. He's damage control, and he's probably poking and prodding at us just to see how we react. He's a scuzzball!
Well said, psy.
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:26:07 AM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""psy""however part of the responsibility does lay on TheWho
That is where you are wrong. I know it's difficult for you to take responsibility. This is why I do not push you. I only suggest that you admit to yourself it was your choice alone to post this information. Don't worry about admitting these things on this web site. Be honest with yourself and the rest will follow. I thinking you are making progress Psy. This thread shows you making a death threat against imaginary kidnappers and now imaginary posters. Work on yourself for a time and then return if you must. The issue will remain even if you take a break. I believe you need it and you can trust me Psy. I am rooting for you and I will keep my fingers crossed.
Whootie...why do you sound like HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey?
Psy...what are you doing, Psy? I am afraid I cannot allow that, Psy....It would compromise the mission.
:rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:37:32 AM
Quote from: "TheWho"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"Quote from: "TheWho"I think everyone has their personal limits when it comes to freedom of speech. The porn doesn’t bother me, the screaming gorillas are irritating and disruptive, the bad language is okay and I am use to getting called every name in the book for my opinions. What I think is crossing the line is posting peoples pictures and personal information.. even if it is out there already for people to see.
For example: If a highschool yearbook posts pictures of their homecoming I don’t think it is right for those pictures to be used elsewhere or on porn sights…cut and pasted for others enjoyment.. if a corporation posts pictures of employees they are meant to be viewed by potential customers and for others to use them for ridicule on sites like fornits is wrong.
These are not first amendment violations but just my personal opinion of what I think is too far.
Just for the record, I did not write that post about “quit picking your noseâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:40:20 AM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
So if you don't think it was right then why do you seemingly keep defending the notion that because he is who he is the posting of his personal information is ok?
That is the read I'm getting here. I might be wrong though.
You are one steadfast mofo, tsw...gotta hand it to ya.
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:41:01 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""That is stinking thinking, your life is what you make of it.
Simple, yet effective troll-bait.
Hard to believe ppl bit.
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:42:17 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
This issue is going to keep me up all night in contemplative worry.
:rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:45:55 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Guest""It doesn't matter if THE WHO is this "Alan Newman" or not. Posting this was just wrong. Privacy on FORNITS is the issue.
Psy was wrong to post this; and he has apologized.
I guess "wrong" is a matter of perspective.
Was this "wrong"
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=295925#295925 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=295925#295925)
Quote from: "TheWho"
Deborah, why do you continue to judge people you don’t know? How awful to prejudge people like that!! She may have a dying mother at home and having the Akers bring Emily home may be the fastest route to have them all together. The mother may have been persuaded by Emily to stay with “her motherâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:48:38 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
deborah wrote:QuoteWhy did you post a blatant lie about me on a public forum? I despise you for the shill you are, I may have an opinion about you or your juvenile antics, but I don't fabricate outright lies about you.So what you are saying is people on fornits should not post blatant lies about other people or their children. Does this apply to everyone? Or just a few people? Just survivors? Lets be fair, okay, I think I heard that story about you somewhere where someone mentioned you lost custody.. am I wrong?
Should fairness start with me or should someone else start?QuoteI'm about sick of hearing "we" shouldn't use unfair advantage. Do you have any idea how many times over the years staff and shills have used their "unfair advantage" to ID survivors and post their names and outrageous comments about the "issues" they were sent to program for?
Which person is telling you not to use unfair advantage? Why are you taking this out on me? I actually agree, though, I don’t think it is right for moderators to use unfair advantage against other posters. I don’t think posters should be “outedâ€
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""QuoteAtleast when TSW went off and ran havoc and changed my posts (and others, Ha,Ha,Ha) and avatars he had the balls to admit it and we all had a good laugh
Correction.. I deleted them.. not changed them.
well okay..who was awake when you were deleting them.. because many of my posts were changed... 15 or so of my posts ended with "I am an asshole"...." I lie constantly"......"I am a homosexual" and a few that only you or niles could come up with and I cant repeat here.... this had to have been you TSW... I know deborah would not have written that.. Dont get me wrong... I dont really care at this point and thought it was funny even then.. but I think you were having a good time.
...
It was me, dickhead.
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 10:54:42 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
No you're not a victim. You're a pretentious prick. I never changed the content of your posts and you know it. YOU are the one who attempted to cause people concern about the safety of posting. I can't see where your whining allegations made one whit of difference on this forum.
Yeh, I agree, things need to be brought out in the open and discussed. That's why I asked you a direct question. Answer it. Why did you post a blatant lie about me?
Balls are used for playing games. They have nothing to do with honesty or integrity.
Yes you did, Deb, and you deleted them many times. This Has already been established and it is old news.. lets drop it.. the database seems to be secure now.
I posted information, about you, that I read here on fornits about a year ago. It isn’t something that I made up.
...
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 12:56:42 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Deborah""No you're not a victim. You're a pretentious prick. I never changed the content of your posts and you know it. YOU are the one who attempted to cause people concern about the safety of posting. I can't see where your whining allegations made one whit of difference on this forum.
Yeh, I agree, things need to be brought out in the open and discussed. That's why I asked you a direct question. Answer it. Why did you post a blatant lie about me?
Balls are used for playing games. They have nothing to do with honesty or integrity.
Yes you did, Deb, and you deleted them many times. This Has already been established and it is old news.. lets drop it.. the database seems to be secure now.
I posted information, about you, that I read here on fornits about a year ago. It isn’t something that I made up.
Quote
You had a child, which you lost control of, sent away to a program… is it fair for us to say you sat around and did nothing while your kid was sent away? Should we judge your actions and speculate on the lack of parenting skills that led you (the mother) to lose custody of her own children? Courts typically don’t take kids away from their mother very easily… should we all say we cant relate and your lack of parenting is “Mind blowingâ€
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 01:18:45 PM
Quote
you fucked up your attempt to slander.
Well I am glad I didn’t slander anyone.. god forbid I wouldn’t want to be pegged as the first one to break that rule here.
Quote
As for the allegation that 'many' of your posts were deleted. If that were the case, then there surely exists 'many' threads with holes in them that don't flow correctly. Quotes or comments to posts you made that no longer exist. I challenge you to demonstrate that. Nothing was ever "established", your allegations 'prove' nothing. Just a lame attempt to discredit me and to create concern for others. All in a day's work, right?
Oh, so you wait several months until you speak up and ask for me to show where the holes are in the conversation…. They would be difficult to find now, wouldn’t they… nothing to search for because they are deleted.
Quote
The truth is, you're pissed because you didn't get to play games anonymously in the HLA forum. You don't like what I post about the industry, particularly Aspen. You can't present legitimate arguments, and certainly don't support "free speech" for anyone but yourself, so you resort to slander.
So you deleted my threads because you thought I was playing games… at least you stepped up and gave me a reason… so that explains the anon threads but not the others but I am sure it was for the same reason… and it really doesn’t matter to me now.
I have no problem with most of what you write but you seem to have a problem with what I write or my conversations and posts would not have gone missing, would they?
I don’t see where I stated I was against free speech, you seem to be projecting here…your actions speak for themselves.
I didn’t resort to slander, you said so yourself…… If this was me complaining you would be asking me why I am playing the victim.
...
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Oh, so you wait several months until you speak up and ask for me to show where the holes are in the conversation…. They would be difficult to find now, wouldn’t they… nothing to search for because they are deleted.
Nah, if it happened, you'd know right where they were. I asked for proof when you made the allegations. You provided none.
Quote
The truth is, you're pissed because you didn't get to play games anonymously in the HLA forum. You don't like what I post about the industry, particularly Aspen. You can't present legitimate arguments, and certainly don't support "free speech" for anyone but yourself, so you resort to slander.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
So you deleted my threads because you thought I was playing games… at least you stepped up and gave me a reason… so that explains the anon threads but not the others but I am sure it was for the same reason… and it really doesn’t matter to me now.
You're running off the rails again. Claiming I said something I didn't.
As you know, your posts weren't deleted or altered. Your anon posts were tagged with the Cat In The Hat emoticon, which I warned you in advance would happened if you chose to post anon in HLA.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I have no problem with most of what you write but you seem to have a problem with what I write or my conversations and posts would not have gone missing, would they?
I don’t see where I stated I was against free speech, you seem to be projecting here…your actions speak for themselves.
::roflmao:: Any level of rational discourse is impossible with you. You're like the philandering husband who accuses his wife of cheating.
Quote
I didn’t resort to slander, you said so yourself…… If this was me complaining you would be asking me why I am playing the victim.
Semantics. You certainly attempted, but botched it up.
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 02:22:55 PM
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?
Post by: ZenAgent on November 17, 2007, 02:32:20 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Why would THE WHO's ANONYMOUS postings, or any other ANONYMOUS postings by a poster on Fornits, be identified by the moderator and tagged by an emotioncon?
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?
I wish the admins did occasionally identify anon postings as being done by one person. Not by real user name, though. Some trolls carry on conversations with themselves and provide their own back-up.
Ginger's commitment to free speech is a great thing, though. TheWho and his ilk are to be expected and dealt with. Calling him out on his anon posts is one way of dealing with him when he's becoming more than a disruption.
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Why would THE WHO's ANONYMOUS postings, or any other ANONYMOUS postings by a poster on Fornits, be identified by the moderator and tagged by an emotioncon?
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?
One would think we would have the right to post anonymously... but it was up to the discretion of the admins. I caught Deb, red handed twice.. even the readers noticed my posts being altered the second time... as a corrective action they have changed the database and assignment of the admins (as I have heard).
The truth hurts, thats why she is so pissed I guess...... I believe everyone is safe now with the new system (upgrades) in place..... it is in the past as far as I am concerned.
...
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 03:41:43 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""Guest""Why would THE WHO's ANONYMOUS postings, or any other ANONYMOUS postings by a poster on Fornits, be identified by the moderator and tagged by an emotioncon?
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?
I wish the admins did occasionally identify anon postings as being done by one person. Not by real user name, though. Some trolls carry on conversations with themselves and provide their own back-up.
Ginger's commitment to free speech is a great thing, though. TheWho and his ilk are to be expected and dealt with. Calling him out on his anon posts is one way of dealing with him when he's becoming more than a disruption.
You have to remember, Zen, we all have to deal with you also.. you are not the most pleasant fellow on the block. You just see it from a different perspective.
Here is a suggestion to help remedy the problem for some:
http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=295941#295941
not sure how popular (or doable) it would be though...
...
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Why would THE WHO's ANONYMOUS postings, or any other ANONYMOUS postings by a poster on Fornits, be identified by the moderator and tagged by an emotioncon?
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?
The moderators of different forums have been allowed to set their own policy, to a degree. Provided it doesn't violate the overall policy of "no censorship".
Witness Gook's forum and Greg's. Don't know what other do.
His posts weren't deleted or altered, simply tagged after he was warned. He chose that. He has no interest in HLA except to divert and create chaos anonymously.
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 03:58:27 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Guest""Why would THE WHO's ANONYMOUS postings, or any other ANONYMOUS postings by a poster on Fornits, be identified by the moderator and tagged by an emotioncon?
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?
The moderators of different forums have been allowed to set their own policy, to a degree. Provided it doesn't violate the overall policy of "no censorship".
Witness Gook's forum and Greg's. Don't know what other do.
His posts weren't deleted or altered, simply tagged after he was warned. He chose that. He has no interest in HLA except to divert and create chaos anonymously.
No the wording was altered and posts deleted.. many people saw it happen, that is why there was a policy change.
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 04:08:55 PM
Quote from: "TheWho"
Quote from: ""Guest""Why would THE WHO's ANONYMOUS postings, or any other ANONYMOUS postings by a poster on Fornits, be identified by the moderator and tagged by an emotioncon?
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?Quote from: ""TheWho""One would think we would have the right to post anonymously... but it was up to the discretion of the admins. I caught Deb, red handed twice.. even the readers noticed my posts being altered the second time...
What a crock. You revel in this venue don't you. Where you can say anything without having to prove it, and other's can't disprove it because it's non-exsistant. Coward.Quote from: ""TheWho""as a corrective action they have changed the database and assignment of the admins (as I have heard).
::roflmao::
Yeh, some kind of secure. Gook claimed to be a Mod yesterday. Know what that means?Quote from: ""TheWho""The truth hurts, thats why she is so pissed I guess...... I believe everyone is safe now with the new system (upgrades) in place..... it is in the past as far as I am concerned.
::roflmao:: Pissed? The truth? You see this:
Hidden Lake Academy
Join the discussion of HLA and Ridge Creek Wilderness in Dahlonega, Ga. The moderator of this forum accepts no responsiblity for content. This is a first amendment based open discussion. By posting or reading, you agree to these terms. ISAC report Lawsuit
Moderator Deborah
Post in HLA anonymously and your posts will continue to be tagged.
Post by: ZenAgent on November 17, 2007, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
You have to remember, Zen, we all have to deal with you also.. you are not the most pleasant fellow on the block.
...
Coming from you, that's a compliment. Peninsula Village shares your opinion. There you go again, the spokesman for an invisible group: "we all"? Don't use the Royal "We", Whootie. State your personal opinions as an individual.
I'm not pleasant to you or one other person who posts along with you. I've tried to help other posters on and off the forum when I can. I am biased, you're right about that. I wouldn't piss on you if you were ablaze.
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 04:47:30 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Deborah""Quote from: ""Guest""Why would THE WHO's ANONYMOUS postings, or any other ANONYMOUS postings by a poster on Fornits, be identified by the moderator and tagged by an emotioncon?
Didn't THE WHO have the right to post anonymously, without being identified by the moderator?
The moderators of different forums have been allowed to set their own policy, to a degree. Provided it doesn't violate the overall policy of "no censorship".
Witness Gook's forum and Greg's. Don't know what other do.
His posts weren't deleted or altered, simply tagged after he was warned. He chose that. He has no interest in HLA except to divert and create chaos anonymously.
No the wording was altered and posts deleted.. many people saw it happen, that is why there was a policy change.
::roflmao::
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 04:51:53 PM
Quote
Post in HLA anonymously and your posts will continue to be tagged.
Tagging is very minor compared to deleting or changing a posts content. I submitted a solution (in" web forum hosting")to help alleviate some of the difficulty with Anon postings. I believe you should be straight forward with the people who will be posting in HLA.. if you intend to out my guest posts I think others should be aware that they may be outed also if they step out of line and disagree with you or piss you off. Just be honest with everyone so they know what to expect.
Here I changed your shingle on the door and made your name bigger (more impressive I think)
Hidden Lake Academy
Join the discussion of HLA and Ridge Creek Wilderness in Dahlonega, Ga. The moderator of this forum accepts no responsiblity for content. This is a first amendment based open discussion (unless you disagree with me or piss me off), if this occurs and you are posting as a “guestâ€
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 05:03:19 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""You have to remember, Zen, we all have to deal with you also.. you are not the most pleasant fellow on the block.
...
Coming from you, that's a compliment. Peninsula Village shares your opinion. There you go again, the spokesman for an invisible group: "we all"? Don't use the Royal "We", Whootie. State your personal opinions as an individual.
I'm not pleasant to you or one other person who posts along with you. I've tried to help other posters on and off the forum when I can. I am biased, you're right about that. I wouldn't piss on you if you were ablaze.
Yeah, I found that to work best for new people (parents) that I bring on also... I will hold their hand a little at first and tell them who to avoid and which forums to stay away from, how to post etc.. There are very few people that I dislike here. I treat everyone pretty much the same. But that is the difference between you and me... I am a little more compassionate, I would piss on you if you were ablaze, although sometimes it takes a couple of beers to get me primed.
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 05:13:00 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""Quote from: ""TheWho""You have to remember, Zen, we all have to deal with you also.. you are not the most pleasant fellow on the block.
...
Coming from you, that's a compliment. Peninsula Village shares your opinion. There you go again, the spokesman for an invisible group: "we all"? Don't use the Royal "We", Whootie. State your personal opinions as an individual.
I'm not pleasant to you or one other person who posts along with you. I've tried to help other posters on and off the forum when I can. I am biased, you're right about that. I wouldn't piss on you if you were ablaze.
... I am a little more compassionate, I would piss on you if you were ablaze, although sometimes it takes a couple of beers to get me primed.
...
Both of you would be most candidly presented soaked in urine.
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I believe you should be straight forward with the people who will be posting in HLA.. if you intend to out my guest posts I think others should be aware that they may be outed also if they step out of line and disagree with you or piss you off. Just be honest with everyone so they know what to expect.
I see that you're going to continue to imply that you weren't warned. Visit Gook or Greg's forum and pull you juvenile antics. See how long your posts stay up. They full out censor their forums.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Here I changed your shingle on the door and made your name bigger (more impressive I think)
I see you got the point.
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 05:14:48 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""Quote from: ""TheWho""You have to remember, Zen, we all have to deal with you also.. you are not the most pleasant fellow on the block.
...
Coming from you, that's a compliment. Peninsula Village shares your opinion. There you go again, the spokesman for an invisible group: "we all"? Don't use the Royal "We", Whootie. State your personal opinions as an individual.
I'm not pleasant to you or one other person who posts along with you. I've tried to help other posters on and off the forum when I can. I am biased, you're right about that. I wouldn't piss on you if you were ablaze.
Yeah, I found that to work best for new people (parents) that I bring on also... I will hold their hand a little at first and tell them who to avoid and which forums to stay away from, how to post etc.. There are very few people that I dislike here. I treat everyone pretty much the same. But that is the difference between you and me... I am a little more compassionate, I would piss on you if you were ablaze, although sometimes it takes a couple of beers to get me primed.
...
TheWho, a veritable fount of compassion. Mr. Warm and Fuzzy. I'll piss on you, on fire or not.
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 05:25:43 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""TheWho""I believe you should be straight forward with the people who will be posting in HLA.. if you intend to out my guest posts I think others should be aware that they may be outed also if they step out of line and disagree with you or piss you off. Just be honest with everyone so they know what to expect.
I see that you're going to continue to imply that you weren't warned. Visit Gook or Greg's forum and pull you juvenile antics. See how long your posts stay up. They full out censor their forums.Quote from: ""TheWho""Here I changed your shingle on the door and made your name bigger (more impressive I think)
I see you got the point.
Yes, I did, and other people as well... if they did not I will remind them. I warned you privately to stop altering my posts (on HLA and TTI) and you didnt take to my warning and were caught "red handed" the last time you did it... and it stopped there (hopefully for good)......and now the database has been redesigned to help alleviate the problem. But if you start up again I think the other people posting have a right to know what you are doing.... not all the opinions can be yours, you need to let other people speak (mature or not) to have a balanced discussion.
All I am saying, Deborah, is be honest with people... if you intend to alter posts or delete them for what ever reason (hate, indifference, immaturity, disagreement) you should warn all the posters (not just me).
...
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 05:35:34 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Yes, I did, and other people as well... if they did not I will remind them. I warned you privately to stop altering my posts...
Who gives a fuck about you and your fucking posts? I sure as hell don't.
Post by: Deborah on November 17, 2007, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Yes, I did, and other people as well... if they did not I will remind them. I warned you privately to stop altering my posts (on HLA and TTI) and you didnt take to my warning and were caught "red handed" the last time you did it... and it stopped there (hopefully for good)......
::roflmao:: Post the PM Who.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
All I am saying, Deborah, is be honest with people... if you intend to alter posts or delete them for what ever reason (hate, indifference, immaturity, disagreement) you should warn all the posters (not just me).
Like this- our ONE and only private communication:
From: Deborah
To: TheWho
Posted: 30 Apr 2007 04:05
Subject: HLA Forum
Who,
You want to dick around in the HLA forum. Fine. But do so under your username, or your post will be deleted.
Your choice.
From: TheWho
To: Deborah
Posted: 30 Apr 2007 04:07
Subject: Re: HLA Forum
Okay, But it should apply to everyone. Fair enough?
From: Deborah
To: TheWho
Posted: 30 Apr 2007 04:15
Subject: Re: HLA Forum
Fuck you.
From: TheWho
To: Deborah
Posted: 30 Apr 2007 13:49
Subject: Re: HLA Forum
Deborah wrote:
Fuck you.
I guess I will take that as you will continue with two sets of rules. One for yourself and one for others. I knew the answer just wanted to hear it from you.
~~
After contemplating, I decided just to tag them, but had I decided to delete them, you were given ample warning.
Now, post the PM in which you "warned" me to stop deleting your posts. And any evidence that I was "caught red-handed".
Don't try any funny stuff either. When you post the alleged PM, you also need to give Ginger permission to confirm it exists. I've already given mine.
Post by: TheWho on November 17, 2007, 05:57:39 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Yes, I did, and other people as well... if they did not I will remind them. I warned you privately to stop altering my posts...Who gives a fuck about you and your fucking posts? I sure as hell don't.
well that is one vote, there are 4,653 other registered posters here on fornits who seem to disagree with you.
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2007, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""TheWho""Yes, I did, and other people as well... if they did not I will remind them. I warned you privately to stop altering my posts...Who gives a fuck about you and your fucking posts? I sure as hell don't.
well that is one vote, there are 4,653 other registered posters here on fornits who seem to disagree with you.
Shut your fucking hole before I kick it in, stupid cuntbag WhoNigger.
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2007, 01:02:50 AM