Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: 85 Day Jerk on May 09, 2004, 03:17:00 PM
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If you all go back in your minds, you may remember a time long ago in your childhood when some grownup taught you a little poem that actually used your own hands as props. No X-Box, death metal, funny haircut or tatoos were required. All you needed was the bright eyed wonder of a child and the guidance of someone loving and caring. This inter-active experience went as follows........ With both hands clasped together you would both say, "Here is the Church."
Then you would extend your index fingers and say, "Here is the Steeple." Finally your would draw your wrists out and expose all the fingers wiggling inside and then say, "Open the doors and see all the People," because that is all religion is really, simply the people who choose to gather on a certain day in a certain building.
It is no different than the people who go to Nascar, or sporting events, Hooters, or Starbucks. It all has to do with faith. Faith in God, or your higher power, faith that your dogs will win the Trifecta at Derby Lane, or the Bucs will win the Superbowl, or that your Hooter Girl that brings the wings is not packing saline implants. It is all about faith, nothing more nothing less.
I can tell when people have lost faith in themselves by the way they are so damn quick to take God out of the equation and replace it with Bullshit, like AIDS or crack cocaine, problems that won't go away and then rub it in the faces of those that try to do something with their lives and try to make a difference in the lives of others. People like that can critisise and ridicule me til the cows all go to McDonalds for a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. Go ahead, I'll just pray for your self deluded sorry ass and we'll see which is more powerful in the end.
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?that is all religion is really, simply the people who choose to gather on a certain day in a certain building.?
Perhaps if you knew more about religion you would understand how wrong that statement is. All religions have certain doctrines that must be followed. Most religious organizations do far more than just meet on a certain day in a certain building.
?It is no different than the people who go to Nascar, or sporting events, Hooters, or Starbucks. It all has to do with faith. Faith in God, or your higher power, faith that your dogs will win the Trifecta at Derby Lane, or the Bucs will win the Superbowl, or that your Hooter Girl that brings the wings is not packing saline implants. It is all about faith, nothing more nothing less.?
Actually, it is quite different from people that go to NASCAR, sporting events, Hooters, or Starbucks. These examples have nothing to do with faith. Those that go to NASCAR pay for their tickets (payment is required, not optional), and realize (barring some sort of natural disaster) that they will see people zip around a track for several hours on end. There is plenty of historical evidence that this will be true. You are obviously mistaken about the nature of faith as well. Faith is belief without proof. One does not have faith that the bridge they drive over will not collapse. One knows that the bridge they drive over will not collapse. Numerous others have crossed over the bridge in the past. We have the Department of Transportation, which regularly inspects these bridges with scientific methods. Of course, there is a chance the bridge will collapse, but we accept that to be a small chance. There is quite a difference between that and faith.
?I can tell when people have lost faith in themselves by the way they are so damn quick to take God out of the equation and replace it with Bullshit, like AIDS or crack cocaine, problems that won't go away and then rub it in the faces of those that try to do something with their lives and try to make a difference in the lives of others. People like that can critisise and ridicule me til the cows all go to McDonalds for a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. Go ahead, I'll just pray for your self deluded sorry ass and we'll see which is more powerful in the end.?
Actually, there are other signs of when someone has lost faith (if faith would even be the correct term to use in this instance) in them self. These would strongly resemble signs of depression, of which you know plenty. A sign of this is not that they have been ?so damn quick to take God out of the equation and replace it with Bullshit?. I am unclear of what you are actually saying next. AIDS and crack cocaine are real. They are not bullshit. Or do you mean that an atheist rubbed AIDS and crack cocaine in your face? If the latter is true, please get checked out by a doctor, if AIDS is detected early, and treatment is started early, it can add many years to your life. Please do not pray for my ass. It disturbs me that you would even be thinking about my ass. Also, a delusion is a false belief, or a persistent and false mental conception of facts as they relate to oneself. It sounds as though you are the one who is delusional with regard to your view of religion.
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What if you were brought up in a house where there was no religion involved? No church, no god, no discussion of god, no nothing. Not even anti-religious statements--just nothing. I dont feel the need for it and never did. Never really even understood why anyone would bother. I dont feel like it it needs to be replaced with anything either. Didnt need it and probably never will.
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Whah Hell, if it were'nt for postings by retards like ANONYMOUS # 47940, it would be hard to show the outside world the brain damaging effects of the Straight Experience that befell so many innocent lives. I mean, how hard is it to mimic back the exact words of what someone says, add comments and insight that don't even surpass a 3rd grade education level, sit back and be all smug and shit, like you are some kinda "gifted" expert or something? I mean is'nt that the exact same thing you did in group? Does this mean that all that time in Straight taught you nothing? You think that it is cool to come onto these forums and spout your durision on us all and we will sit back in awe and wonder just like when you were bucking for 5th phase and did'nt care who got trampled in the process?
I got news for you Anonymous #47940, you obviously never went through the original program, so when it comes to criticising my posts, pretty please with sugar on top...........SHUT THE FUCK UP. Love Ya!
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?Whah Hell, if it were'nt for postings by retards like ANONYMOUS # 47940, it would be hard to show the outside world the brain damaging effects of the Straight Experience that befell so many innocent lives. I mean, how hard is it to mimic back the exact words of what someone says, add comments and insight that don't even surpass a 3rd grade education level, sit back and be all smug and shit, like you are some kinda "gifted" expert or something? I mean is'nt that the exact same thing you did in group? Does this mean that all that time in Straight taught you nothing? You think that it is cool to come onto these forums and spout your durision on us all and we will sit back in awe and wonder just like when you were bucking for 5th phase and did'nt care who got trampled in the process??
Retard? Comments and insight that don?t surpass a 3rd grade education level? Perhaps you are engaging in a process that Freud would have identified as reaction formation. I obviously am not retarded, and clearly have higher than a 3rd grade education level. I have not claimed to be a ?gifted? expert, or anything of the sort. I will be in the future, but make no claim that I currently possess that type of knowledge. It is not the same thing I did while in group, quite the opposite as a matter of fact. I tout objectivity now, rather than assisting others in self-delusion. All that time in Straight taught me quite a bit, probably quite a great deal more than you learned in 85 days. The matter of being ?cool? did not enter into my mind in my derision, if it is indeed derision that I am performing. I do not expect those on this board to ?sit back in awe and wonder?. I expect quite the opposite. You have no idea what my behavior was in Straight as you were not present during my experience. I ?trampled? no one in the process, though I gave quite a lot of advice that was not scientifically sound.
?I got news for you Anonymous #47940, you ever pull this shit on me in person, you will be riding in the back of an ambulance so fucking fast, you'll swear it's all a new attraction at Disney World. You obviously never went through the original program, so when it comes to criticising my posts, pretty please with sugar on top...........SHUT THE FUCK UP. Love Ya!?
Personal attacks, threats of violence, all offered after your unsound statements are challenged? Who?s the one displaying Straight-like behavior? Let me say it again, reaction formation. Also, if you think your behavior will intimidate me into not criticizing you, you are sadly mistaken. If you don?t want to be criticized, or enter into arguments, why do you want to talk about religion? Religion is well known to be a ?high-risk? subject, and should be avoided in casual conversation, along with politics. To be taken more seriously on the topic of religion you truly need to spend some more time researching the subject. Love me? You don?t even know me.
Finally, threats of violence are completely inappropriate and dangerous behavior. Not only can threats of violence get you involved in unwanted legal entanglements, but you can never be sure of the mental state and skill that another individual possesses. Or in words you may understand more readily, ?Don?t write a check with your mouth that your ass can?t cash.?
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Excuse me, meant to say projection.
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All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions make me sick
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
They all claim that they have the truth
That'll set you free
Just give 'em all your money and they'll set you free
Free for a fee
They all claim that they have 'the Answer'
When they don't even know the Question
They're just a bunch of liars
They just want your money
They just want your consciousness
[Chorus]
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna BLEAH
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me ILL
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I agree, I am just gonna pray. You can't stop me, and you can't stop the changes that may take place in your life because of it. I was simply expressing some thoughts, not even beliefs, but rather than seeing any simple connections to one's own life, some felt compelled to ridicule. Well thats ok with me. I guess we've all had a trying year and all so let bygones be bygones and all that stuff.
What even prompted me to write this thread in the first place was the negative attacks on someone I care about simply because they were making positive changes in their life and it was causing some ANONYMOUS people to squirm and twinge about the lack of purpose in their own pathetic lives. I have said it before, and will say it again, "I don't like anonymous posters that come in here and spout off like children hiding in the bushes and shouting out to the Ice Cream Man to stop, just to fuck with him." That is not what this forum is for. This is not about religion. This is supposed to be about people comming together to help one another so send your tax free contributions to.........
85 Day Jerk
5150 Park Street North
St. Petersburg, FL 33709
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So Much H8 :eek:
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Nah, it's love... :wink:
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Listen, I find it very judgemental of you to call me a person with a lack of purpose just because I dont have, have never had, and never will have religion.
You can pray all you want to. That is not the problem. The problem is the assumption that because I do not have religion, I have to fill that void with something like smoking crack and the like.
I was just trying to point out that there are people out there where religion was never a part of their life--so no void needs to be filled. Passing swift and pretty mean judgement on these people, just shows what a lack of understanding that there are people who can live without religion and still can have meaningful and understanding lives.
It's funny you punch from one direction--lack of religion--then punch me from another--saying my life is meaningless, and then you wonder why I retaliate. Spoken like a true christian.
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On 2004-05-09 22:20:00, Lezli wrote:
"Nah, it's love... :wink:"
Contrary to Straight teachings...arguing and putting people down is in fact...not love.
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Just to add a few thoughts about my last post because anonymous posters are discrimnated against on this board by not being allowed to edit there posts.
Why would i post anything with a name attached to it? You have already threatened to kick another anonymous poster's ass just because he stated different beliefs than you. I am not big enough or strong enough to defend myself against you so why would I give you the possibility of coming after me?
As far as religion, you posted the topic. It was a "A few thoughts about religion." When i gave you my thoughts on religion, you told me my life was meaningless. If this is not about religion then why did you have that header.
From all i have read from these "good" christian people, I would rather be a non-religious heathan/infedal (ive been called both)than someone who has to go around pretending that they are good to people, then ridiculing them and judging them for their beliefs.
As far as love, what do christians know about love? Seems to me most of them have a total lack of it. They scour through the bible digging up tidbits here and there, trying to find any mentioning of love, so they will know it when the feel it. You shouldn't need a reference book to tell you what love is. You should be able to feel it without such a reference.
Pray all you want to. I dont pray and shock me, shock me, schock me--changes, good and bad, come about in my life too. I just happen to believe that it is how you deal with these changes that defines who you are--not that you prayed for them to come about.
If I am being judgemental, oh well. Like I have stated quite clearly, I am not a christian and it is not one of my laws that says you shouldnt judge people.
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Whatever...go find the link where I threatened you please..
And if I did you must have really goaded the fuck out of me.. :flame:
Im not a violent person..ask anyone that knows me..
And dont do a 180 and play the meek frail one..
First of all I could give a shit about you, whom you are,where you are, and what you think.
I have better things to do than cross country stalk people for arguing with me on the internet :lol:
That you would play that card is amusing..
:lol: :lol: :lol: (Sorry I was just picturing myself in my little old Toyota blazing down the highway with a scowl on my face clenching my fists on a 23 hour drive to come beat some internet stranger up) Thats fucking hilarious you just made my day!! :lol:
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And I never started the thread you are referring to...and I am not an Xtian either...nor did I say your life is meaningless..
Man made religion isnt important in and of itself to make ones life have meaning or lack thereof...
I tend to scoff at the religious zealots..I have known too many and they are fucking nuts and dont even see it..they surround themselves with likeminded zealots and shun everyone else.."Join us or you are lost"
Church is just a social function.
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Hey triumverate hold on was in the middle of posting when you posted didnt even see your posts until after--these were directed to the original thread poster.
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Hey Trium, I think Anon is referring to 85 Day...no worries.
85 Day...I dont think there is anything wrong with your point of view...but, it is only fair that if you want to post your thoughts, that others can post theirs as well. Even if they dont agree with you. I tend to agree with Anon on the subject of Christianity and religion in general. And not to offend you, but, its responses like yours from people that claim to be Christian that tend to repel me from the whole idea...time and time again.
Being so harsh and judgemental isnt really what God has in mind is it? I mean, when someone tells me that I have no control over how someone prays for me, and I am powerless to control the things in my life that will change regardless of what I want for myself because of someones prayers for me. Well, thats some creepy ass shit...that doesnt in the least attract me to exploring God or faith or anyone who is remotely connected to those things. Wouldnt you agree?
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On 2004-05-10 04:41:00, Triumvirate wrote:
"
On 2004-05-09 22:20:00, Lezli wrote:
"Nah, it's love... :wink:"
Contrary to Straight teachings...arguing and putting people down is in fact...not love.
"
I wasn't talking about straight at all.
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my few thoughts on religion....
like Karl Marx said it is the opium of the people.
I think it is set up and designed to control and influence people, strip them of their individuality and cause them anixiety and grief over normal human thoughts and emotions while at the same time holding up the carrot of personal joy if one goes into the fold of their specific religion.
I don't believe in organized religion I think it is a fraud. I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie
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In my program you were allowed to do 2 things on Sunday. One, you could get up early as hell, feed and dress the newcomers, take them to a drop-off's house, and then attend church with your parents. If you were DAMN lucky, you may have gotten 4 or 5 hours sleep the night before. Only kids from hard core religious families put themselves through this regimen.
The second choice was about 90% of the norm for the Pre-80's Tampa Bay Area Straight Program. That choice was to simply sleep in, because we did not have to be in the damn building until 2pm.
This led many to an anti-religious point of view, especially those who had to get up early on Sunday and be dragged across town to be dropped off and picked up later. It only happened to me while living at the Buick's house and lemmee tell you, I wanted to take a chainsaw to the Virgin Mary over the lack of sleep I was getting as a newcomer. This is something to think about folks.
I am merely pointing out just A FEW ways in which the weekly routine of Straight affected our lives in such evil and insideous ways, that here we are 20 years later arguing about Tomato, Tommatto, nanner-nanner boo boo stick your head in dog doo! But damn if it has'nt been fun though ya know?
As for me, I attended a small church for awhile, but found it awkward as they had no single's group to speak of. A friend from a former job attended there and it was a good way to keep in touch and be a part of something constructive. I quit going after awhile, because I felt there was something better somewhere else. I am still looking for a place where I would feel more comfortable. If there is something wrong with that, I fail to see it, and I fail to see how this post could be seen as a way to sway or influence someone else's beliefs.
The people behind Straight did not want us to believe in ourselves until they had squeezed every ounce of free will from us, and every conceivable dollar from our parents. Once this was accomplished, and they had used us completely, only then were we free to find a higher power and a purpose in life. It all came down to how together your parents were, how set you were in school, connections with the "Good Ol Boy" network towards finding a good job, and I can only guess at how it was for the girls. In closing, you can see the anguish and unresolved anger in the various posts, and I can only hope that cooler heads and hearts will prevail in the end. THE END[ This Message was edited by: 85 Day Jerk on 2004-05-10 13:39 ]
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?I agree, I am just gonna pray. You can't stop me??
Always better to keep things at a civil tone. Please, do not think that I have a desire to stop you from praying. I am not so blind as to ignore the benefits of such an activity, though I don?t believe the effect of prayer to one god or another makes any difference; or if one chooses to meditate with no particular belief at all. I believe a Catholic prayer can be as effective as a meditative chant or silent reflection. Unfortunately as all of us who attended Straight know: sometimes religious leaders give unsound advice (to be mild about it).
?? and you can't stop the changes that may take place in your life because of it.?
As another Anonymous expressed, changes will occur in my life regardless of your prayer. If you want to attribute those changes to your prayer, then I suppose you are free to do so; however, why not attribute changes to the stimulus that most likely inspired the change. Does prayer have an effect? Some studies have shown that it does (recovery rates and mood elevation), but perhaps not for the reasons organized religion currently attributes to it.
?I was simply expressing some thoughts, not even beliefs, but rather than seeing any simple connections to one's own life, some felt compelled to ridicule? What even prompted me to write this thread in the first place was the negative attacks on someone I care about??
I am assuming this was generated with the remark, ?Attending a few bible studies and using drugs does not qualify someone to give accurate advice and treatment to people with mental disorders. The church merely perpetuates the problems of Straight Inc, just to a lesser degree. Those who suffer from mental disorders need professional, evidence based, care.? Perhaps considering the context of the previous message this was a bit stark. I am glad that Lezi is experiencing happiness and joy. It sounds like the group is supportive. Lezi has also impressed me as having the ability to be supportive; however, caution flags rise up quickly for me when I hear that people are learning how to treat those with substance abuse behavior by reading from a Bible. I used to think that was enough, it is not.
?they were making positive changes in their life and it was causing some ANONYMOUS people to squirm and twinge about the lack of purpose in their own pathetic lives.?
I do not have a lack of purpose in my life, I lack the education to fulfill my purpose in life. That will not always be the case.
"I don't like anonymous posters that come in here and spout off like children hiding in the bushes and shouting out to the Ice Cream Man to stop, just to fuck with him."
How funny, did you ever hide in bushes and pull that type of shenanigans on your ice-cream man? Maybe the following analogy fits a little bit better. Someone sits on the side of the road, talking a bit too loudly when someone whistling ?Amazing Grace? walks by; then engages in discourse based on the response he is given.
?That is not what this forum is for. This is not about religion.?
It seems that this board is about whatever anyone desires to post here. I would also like the board to avoid religion, but censorship is rarely used on this board. Others were engaged in religious discussion. I joined in. When the Atheist comes to discuss religion, the board then becomes secular. That is convenient.
?This is supposed to be about people comming together to help one another??
That only lasts for so long, then they get their throats ripped out, metaphorically speaking.
?As for me, I attended a small church for awhile? good way to keep in touch and be a part of something constructive. I quit going after awhile? I am still looking for a place where I would feel more comfortable. there is something wrong with that, I fail to see it??
That doesn?t sound unreasonable. I believe the danger grows exponentially the closer a religion leans toward fundamentalism and zealotry. I believe religion is relatively harmless when practiced casually.
?? I fail to see how this post could be seen as a way to sway or influence someone else's beliefs.?
Perhaps you should look harder.
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Anonymous, first it's Lezli, not Lezi. :wave:
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This board is for survivors..and pretty much any topic goes...
Can only rehash straight stories so many times..
Can only talk about Bradbury case so much...
Other than that its an open free for all for and about survivors. If you dont like religion threads dont click them.
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I really like the anonymous postor in here who started the rebuttal against the first post.
It is a rare inspiration to even see someone who is willing to keep a cool hand with writing and response rationally to what is being read along with objectivity.
I mean to say, what kind of person lets themself get all upset because they see some words and thereby try to 'control' the words they've seen, or they allow themself to get upset over pixels.
I wish I were so rational. Some things I've seen here do make me ill and mad.
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My hat's off to you Anonymous. Well written post. I don't agree with some of it, but ultimately that's not the point. This is a discussion forum where anything goes, this decree straight from Ginger. However sometimes it is refreshing to read a well written debate that doesn't turn into brash name calling. Although I guess Lezi came close. Either way I enjoyed the post.