Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Facility Question and Answers => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 08, 2006, 09:29:17 PM
-
Outback Therapeutic Expedition /Second Nature
Hello:
I'm new to this forum and looking for info / references on the above locales in Utah.
Not looking for political rhetoric, sales pitches or trolls - just plain info - good or bad
thank you !
-
Any reason why you want this info?
Yes:
I have 2 boys. One has been a source of typical concerns- drugs, car joy riding, money theft from the house, disobedience & disorder, etc . 15 years old going on either 8 or 20, depending upon the scenario.
My wife is adamant about sending the oldest (15) to one of these booy camps in Utah (noted above). I am dead set against it. She has been trying to enlist support via the various psychologits, pschiatrists etc - she has called the police a number of times (3) on him. Lately, as I have been reflecting on many of the issues and taking him thru counselling, I begin to see a different pattern - one of almost sef fulfilling prophecy where my wife seems to have been coerced or is being led down a garden path by some of these advisors, referres, specialty social workers or educationists etc, who all seem to promote a couple camps in Utah.
I ahve been following along as to some of the ins and outs of the "kidnapping" scenarios (escorts) of these teens and the difficulties of etracting them from any given place and some of the difficulties if one paren chooses and commits these children without the other parent's concent.
I understand the referral-for-profit motive also the Troubled Parenrting Syndrome
Looking more for specificis on these two particular locations as they are the ones that seem to reoccur in some of the dialogue she is receiveing and lately her plans as they gain momentum.
thx
-
Contact Nick. He should be able to give you the inside scoop on SNW.
Hi Alexia. 12/20/04. We are compiling a reader by and for teens on the systematic abuse of children in institutions such as those on your website. Could you please post the following on your website:
Call to submissions for a new reader about abusive institutions for youth entitled Teenage Lobotomy: a Zine about the Institutionalization of Youth.
The reader will consist of:
-An introduction to the abuses that take place at therapeutic boarding schools, residential treatment facilities, and wilderness programs
-Personal stories and interviews from students, parents, and ex-teachers
-Disscussion of alternative ways to help "troubled" teens, including art therapy, various forms of counseling (such as utilizing AA outpatient programs or talking to mentors for help), and other programs that encourage healing in positive ways.
-Information about mental health, youth emancipation and "manuevering the system" (such as the prison system and juvenile detention centers)
We need your stories.
This may include:
-Where you (or your child, or your friend) were sent
-Specific disciplinairy techniques used
-Reasons for being sent away
-What the staff was like
-How the experience affected you (or your child, or your friend)
-Approximate relapse rate
-Legal actions taken against the institution (if there ever were any)
These are only guidelines. You may tell your story in words, pictures, or any form of communication that will bring your experience to life.
This reader is being compiled by two teenage artists and writers- Nick, who was locked up in the Family Foundation School in New York, Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah, and Saint Paul's Prep School in Arizona, and his close friend Sarah.
Contact us at:
Nick- [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected])
or write to
3706 72nd Street # 5H
Jackson Heights, New York 11372
http://www.teenliberty.org/Dear_Alexia.htm (http://www.teenliberty.org/Dear_Alexia.htm)
Second Nature is a difficult search term. I wasn't willing to sift through the thousands of returns, but here's a recent thread.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=40&Sort= (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=14548&forum=9&start=40&Sort=)
Might want to read the Brat Camp forum and ask your wife what she hopes to accomplish by sending your son to be force marched through the desert.
-
I don't SNWP or Outback are intrinsically bad, but I also think there are better choices -- better on a lot of levels.
First question is whether or not any away-from-home program is needed. If yes (and read further before answering), for what purpose (that is, why?). Without more details, nobody can give a fair opinion, although most posting on fornits will be anti-program period.
Next question, if a program is apropriate, is how to get your son there. It is clear that you are already so set against the idea that you refer to "kidnapping", which is absolutely not what good escorts do - although again most here may disagree.
Going back, that you are evidently so anti-program, and your wife is so pro-program (and specifically one of two mentioned) and apparently nothing further is being discussed suggests to me that you all have it wrong. It suggests that what you need is a competent family therapist -- one who can effectively deal with each member of the family individually and as a group. You won't be doing a good parenting job if you and your spouse aren't even close to the "same page". Your son (like most teens) is hardly stupid, and at least in part is rebellng against the evident rift between his parents.
I do think that giving him a "break" away may be a great idea, but maybe better to do it like a weekend camping trip -- as a family?!!
Yeah, I think lots of programs do lots of good, but you've got a long way to go before either you or your wife ought to get serious about sending your son away. (And if you ever do get to that point, be sure to check widely - not just one place.)
-
Second Nature is an excellent, non-abusive program. It would be good for most teens, and it sounds like your son could really benefit. After 2N, he might be able to return home if you are prepared to change his environment and your parenting.
I think Outback also has a good reputation.
These programs are not bootcamps in any way. They use the outdoor environment to teach self-discipline. The distractions of the home environment are removed. The staff is excellent.
-
Second Nature is an excellent, non-abusive program. It would be good for most teens, and it sounds like your son could really benefit. After 2N, he might be able to return home if you are prepared to change his environment and your parenting.
I think Outback also has a good reputation.
These programs are not bootcamps in any way. They use the outdoor environment to teach self-discipline. The distractions of the home environment are removed. The staff is excellent.
You must either work for one of these or be on some sort of referral basis.
From what I can read, one of these ( second nature I believe) hires young people as their field trip counsellors requiring only a 7-day training period and having a minimum CPR course. These are the staff that take the kids out on their wilderness journey. The employment brochure instructs them that they are the "teachers" to the incarerated teens.
Rather professional staff, huh ?
In the other one, it seems the chld is not permitted to call home but the parent can speak with a pre-arranged counselor periodically to hear about the progress.
Geeze, sounds like my dog gets better treatment when I put him in a boarding kennel.
-
Second Nature is an excellent, non-abusive program. It would be good for most teens, and it sounds like your son could really benefit. After 2N, he might be able to return home if you are prepared to change his environment and your parenting.
I think Outback also has a good reputation.
These programs are not bootcamps in any way. They use the outdoor environment to teach self-discipline. The distractions of the home environment are removed. The staff is excellent.
*COUGH, COUGH*
Whoa! I'm choking on the programmie sales pitch! The "outdoor environment" does nothing to teach kids "self-discipline." What a crock of shit.
-
1. The war is Won when GULAG schools are put out of business, along with the people who run them. When the U.S. Congress joins the rest of the world in signing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and Federal and State authorities enforce it, this industry of child abuse will cease to exist. Only two other countries, including China, have failed to sign this human rights document protecting the civil and human rights of children.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
I think this is an excellent point. But to the original poster why not some kind of non punitive outward bound style expidition?
-
1. The war is Won when GULAG schools are put out of business, along with the people who run them. When the U.S. Congress joins the rest of the world in signing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and Federal and State authorities enforce it, this industry of child abuse will cease to exist. Only two other countries, including China, have failed to sign this human rights document protecting the civil and human rights of children.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
I think this is an excellent point. But to the original poster why not some kind of non punitive outward bound style expidition?
-
I DON'T REPLY TO BLOGS...DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT, SO I CUT AND PASTED YOUR STUFF AND REPLIED IN BOLD -- I'M NOT "CYBER-YELLING" I JUST WASN'T SURE HOW TO DO IT...
Quote:
What qualifications do I need?
Second Nature looks for individuals with great people skills, ability to work in a team, and work under stressful situations if they arise. Field Instructors have diverse backgrounds and education. To work for Second Nature Wilderness Program you must be at least 19 years of age and have a high school diploma or equivalent. I want you to also be certified in Basic First Aid and CPR or greater (WFR, EMT).
Second Nature seeks people who have wilderness experience. It is preferable that you have fairly extensive backpacking experience. This experience can be either be professional or personal. You will be backpacking and hiking your entire shift anywhere from 2 to 8 miles a day with a backpack. Second Nature does not use cabins or have a ?base camp?; you will be moving campsites almost everyday.
Experience with youth, counseling, teaching, previous wilderness experience, or participation in similar activities will certainly improve your resume. Second Nature also offers in-house training from which you will be able to learn communication skills, crisis interventions, and many more tools that you will use working with teens. Second Nature will also ask that you make a commitment of working in the field for at least six to eight months.
http://www.snwp.com/Subsubpages.asp?id=59 (http://www.snwp.com/Subsubpages.asp?id=59)
Definitely some red flags with this company.
1) 19 years old and at minimum a Red Cross CPR card and high school diploma and equivalent.
Wouldn't be a cause for concern if the person your child is spending the majority of his time around in this program is barely out of high school with 7 days of training and a red cross CPR card?
I WORKED AT SECOND NATURE (5 YEARS AGO) AND I WORKED AT A LOCAL ACUTE RESIDENTIAL PROGRAM THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR ADOLESCENTS IN CRISIS. THE "FRONT LINE" PEOPLE AT SECOND NATURE GET INFINITELY MORE TRAINING. SECOND NATURE HAS A LEVEL SYSTEM SO THE INITIAL "TRAINING PERIOD" IS DESIGNED TO INTRODUCE POTENTIAL STAFF TO THE PROGRAM AND PROCESS AND SCREEN OUT FOLKS WHO DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS TO DO THE WORK. IF HIRED, THEY GO THROUGH AN INTERNSHIP AND LEVEL SYSTEM WHERE THEY HAVE TO SHOW THAT THEY HAVE MASTERED SKILLS TO MOVE UP THE LEVEL SYSTEM. AGAIN, THE FRONT LINE FOLKS AT SECOND NATURE GET MUCH MORE TRAINING THEN AT A TRADITIONAL RTC. IT'S A COMPREHENSIVE, WELL ORGANIZED
I am not saying a college degree is needed, but certainly there needs to be something more in their hiring practices. What is the work history of the applicant? Have they worked with kids before? What wilderness experience do they have other than being able to hike up to 8 miles a day with a back pack?
SEE ABOVE ---
2) The program in Utah has no base camps. This means your child could potentially go up to 3 months without properly bathing. Worst in freezing weather your child will most likely be sleeping out of doors in a tent. Given that most of the time SN kids sleep on tarps in sleeping bags, the lack of base camps really worries me. I've slept outside in freezing weather before on many occasions, and have to say their isn't very much that is theraputic about it.
IT'S EXTREMELY SAFE AND THERAPEUTIC...
Quote:
The Second Nature Wilderness Program emphasizes assessment and intervention, with attention to behavioral steadiness, student accountability and preparation for long-term stability and treatment. Unlike boot camp programs for troubled youth, Second Nature integrates the most clinical therapies with necessary behavioral interventions. Instead of teaching by instigating fear in the troubled teen, Second Nature teaches accountability and choice. In both the long and short run, this therapeutic approach has proven to be more effective in changing the lives of troubled teens than any teen boot camps you might have considered.
3) Given the above high lighted passage I think it will be a greater chance rather than lesser chance that you will find yourself being advised to seek a long term commitment, rather than intergration back into the family.
TRUE AND THAT'S WHAT THE LITERATURE SUGGESTS...(AND IT MAKES INTUITIVE SENSE)...AND, SECOND NATURE IS "UP FRONT" ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT A "MAGIC PROCESS" - 9 OUT OF 10 TIMES YOU'LL SEE AN ADOLESCENT WHO WAS MAKING HORRIBLE CHOICES, PUTTING THEIR LIFE AT RISK, ECT... HAVE A SIGNIFICANT WORLDVIEW SHIFT...AND, 9 OUT OF 10 TIMES YOU'LL HEAR A KID SAY "I'M GONNA COME BACK HERE AND WORK...THIS CHANGED MY LIFE" --- 1 OUT OF 10 TIMES, IT' DOESN'T WORK AS WELL...BUT IT'S NEVER ABUSIVE --
4) Second nature utilizes a stage system for a 1 size fits all therapy. Your child need's will not be given real individual attention, he or she will be just another hobo roll carrying member of a group of lentil and bean eating kids.
THAT'S JUST SILLY, THEY'VE GOT LICENSED, EXPERIENCED (THE MOST EXPERIENCED IN THE INDUSTRY) THERAPISTS (SEVERAL ARE DOCTORAL LEVEL THERAPISTS - SUCH AS, LICENSED PSYCHOLOGISTS)...WHO ARE TREATMENT TEAM LEADERS.
THEY ARE IN THE FIELD FOR 2 DAYS (AGAIN, COMPARE THAT TO THE AMOUNT OF TIME AN ADOLESCENT WILL SEE THEIR THERAPIST IN A TRADITIONAL "WELL RESPECTED" RESIDENTAIL PROGRAM AND YOU'LL SEE THAT THE THERAPIST AT SECOND NATURE SEENS THE KIDS ABOUT 20 HOURS OR MORE PER WEEK --- THE THERAPIST IS INTEGRATED INTO THE GROUP FOR 2 DAYS A WEEK, AND, WHEN THEY LEAVE THE GROUP, THEY LEAVE AN INDIVIDUAL TREATMENT PLAN FOR EACH KID...
5) Places like Second Nature make claims about having a much lauded staff of psycologists who will personally work with your child. Your child is out in the woods most of the time moving from camp to camp. The psycologist isn't with the group but more than one time a week. The bulk of the therapy is going to come from the field instructors who have their high school diplomas and red cross certifications.
SEE ABOVE...THIS MODEL ALLOWS FOR SIGNIFICANTLY MORE CONTACT THEN A TRADITIONAL RESIDENTAIL PSYCH UNIT
----------------
I KNOW THIS IS A FORUM DESIGNED FOR FOLKS WHO ARE ANTI-PROGRAMS FOR TEENS... WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME HORRIFIC PROGRAMS FOR TEENS... IT SEEMS SILLY TO "THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER" --THERE ARE ALSO SOME AMAZING PROGRAMS AND SECOND NATURE IS ONE OF THEM...
I AM SURELY BIASED BECAUSE I WORKED THERE --- SO, I'M SHARING THAT BIAS WITH YOU... PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR OWN BIASES / AGENDA AND SEE HOW THAT MIGHT BE AFFECTING HOW YOU JUDGE PLACES...
-
dude! I went to outback! it was not fun in the sense that you were separated from everything you knew, and weren't even allowed to know what time it was!
However, it was a very enlightening experience, just don't make your kid stay for as long as i did, 13 weeks. the average is about 8-10 weeks
-
..............................
-
My wife had my son kidnapped and sent to Outback Therapeutic Expedition even though I have joint custody. I went to Utah to try to get him back but Outback made it clear that they would require me to file a lawsuit in Utah to get him back. I couldn't afford to do that. They had cooperated with my wife in hiding him from me in the wilderness and I had no way of finding him.
Outback Therapeutic Expedition knew they were helping to use him as a weapon. There had been no psych eval before he was sent out there, and even when they had one done by their pet Psychologist, the only diagnosis they came up with to keep him was Depression Not Otherwise Specified.
In my opinion, the people at Outback Therapeutic Expedition should be put in Jail.
-
How long will your son be enrolled at this wilderness program?
Are you aware that most kids get sent on to long-term residential treatment programs after they complete the wilderness program?
Are you working with your attorney to intervene on such a placement?
-
When my son was first sent to wilderness, the story they gave me was that it was a 1 to 2 month process and he would be back home again. Then they diagnosed him with Depression NOS, and said Residential Therapeutic Facility was the right place for him. They gave me a bunch of bullshit about me having frequent contact with him, but it was all a lie. They wouldn't even let me see him when he went from the wilderness program to the Residential Therapeutic facility.
It has been 6 months since I have been able to talk to my son even by telephone. Now they want to place him in another facility because the facility he is in now has discovered how many lawsuits my ex-wife has filed in the past and apparently figured out that my wife will sue them no matter what they do and ask for all her money back. They appear to be trying to turf him off to another unsuspecting facility as soon as they can. In the mean time, I believe they are afraid to let him talk to me because they are hoping to keep her from suing them. They appear to have figured out that she is much more formidable as a litigant than I am.
I have been fighting this in court and am now bankrupt. My ex-wife has all the marital assets tied up.
I have talked to several psychologists and one adolescent psychiatrist, and they all say that what is happening is child abuse. These people should be in jail.
-
Did Outback send this boy to another Aspen Facility?
-
No, they didn't. At least I don't think the facility he is in is related to Aspen. I think it is owned by 4 or 5 women.
-
You're not the first to have your child incarcerated without their knowledge or consent.
Have you seen the GAO hearing?
http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml)
Please consider sending the details of you ordeal to the GAO. Specifically, regarding how the program colluded with you ex to violate your rights.
There needs to be a safeguard in place that would prevent one parent from placing a child against the others will.
And, what's this about having to file a lawsuit in Utah? The court where your divorce decree is filed has jurisdiction over your son.
-
The court where my divorce is filed has jurisdiction over my wife and son, not the wilderness program. And, having watched my wife delay a court ordered independent evaluation for 6 months now and still going strong, I have little belief that it has jurisdiction over my wife.
As far as the GAO goes, remind me the last time the government actually helped me with something. I am thinking . . . nope. Can't remember it.
-
The court where my divorce is filed has jurisdiction over my wife and son, not the wilderness program. And, having watched my wife delay a court ordered independent evaluation for 6 months now and still going strong, I have little belief that it has jurisdiction over my wife.
As far as the GAO goes, remind me the last time the government actually helped me with something. I am thinking . . . nope. Can't remember it.
So true so true.. government is like a five gallon bucket with ten gallons of shit.
-
The court where my divorce is filed has jurisdiction over my wife and son, not the wilderness program. And, having watched my wife delay a court ordered independent evaluation for 6 months now and still going strong, I have little belief that it has jurisdiction over my wife.
As far as the GAO goes, remind me the last time the government actually helped me with something. I am thinking . . . nope. Can't remember it.
What I dont understand is that the court does not issue a arrest warrent on your wife until she has provided that your son can see you. She is laughing at the court system.
In Denmark where I live every year people are convicted to jail if they try to hide the kid from the other parent. A certain man has spend 6 years in jail because he took his children to Africa, but stayed himself in Denmark.
I know that courts in general does not like to be laughed at, but sometime they dont know that it looks like that. Get some friends to write letters in your newspapers so the public pressure can get the judge to order her detained. If she ends up in jail until the kid is back, I guess that it will be done very fast.
-
Probably because the court gave the mother custody in the first place.
Any comments on Denmark's notorious claim to fame for being the kiddie porn capital of Europe?
-
Probably because the court gave the mother custody in the first place.
The court can grant something and take it away at the next meeting. Britney Spear have just learned that, when the court removed the visitation rights they had granted two weeks before. If a court rule the other way, all have to follow the new ruling or they should suffer consequences.
Any comments on Denmark's notorious claim to fame for being the kiddie porn capital of Europe?
If you provide sources, we can have tread on that.
-
God.. what is with the Britney Spears references today??
Bleh.. All that Danish Kiddie porn must be rotting everyones brains or something.
You sort of answer your own question though. The court first has to make a decision in favor of the father.
-
God.. what is with the Britney Spears references today??
Bleh.. All that Danish Kiddie porn must be rotting everyones brains or something.
You sort of answer your own question though. The court first has to make a decision in favor of the father.
-
My ex-wife has a lot of money. She has a psychiatrist and at least 5 psychologists involved in this case. Although, of course, no psychiatric evaluation was ever done on my son until he was in the wilderness program for a month, and even then his diagnosis came back as Depression NOS and Parent-Child relationship problems, neither of which are recognized as valid diagnosis for residential therapeutic treatment.
Her basis for putting him in Utah is parental alienation syndrome, that I have made her kids hate her. She ignores the fact that her kids didn't start hating her until after she sent her son to Utah. She used PAS as an excuse to send her son to Utah even though he had never committed a crime, was passing in all of his classes in school, had never been violent toward anyone, and was obedient to her reasonable orders. In reality, she sent him to Utah because he does not want to live with her, and in a child custody dispute sending him to Utah is the only way she can keep him from being able to live with me. Otherwise, at 15, he would get to choose the parent he wanted to live with. As it is, she has kept him from having any contact with me or his sister for six months now in spite of two court orders so far to the contrary.
As far as the court putting her in jail, that is unlikely. She is claiming that she is acting in the best interest of the child, and the court has to wait until it has facts to the contrary. The court ordered an independent psychological evaluation of my son in June and it has not yet been performed due to my wife's and the facility's continuances and delays. She has 3 lawyers working for her on this case.
The best that I can hope for is that my son gets brought back home sometime in the next 3 or 4 months. I will have to put up with more of this crap until he turns 18.
-
I have barely skimmed this thread - am usually over at the carlbrook thread.
while i HATED carlbrook with every inch of my being... I would go back to second nature any day. I was well taken care of, my therapist and staff supports actually paid attention to me - i never felt as if i was being punished... i was healthy, fed well, was in shape and whenever anything went wrong was immediately tended to (ex... had a rash and saw a doctor the next day).
they bring birthday cakes from the grocery store out for birthdays, the staff help make living in the wilderness fun.
i was there for four months (which is much longer than most) and have nothing but fabulous things to say about the program.
i was never pushed past my breaking point physically - they took into account my size (tiny) and my pack was the appropriate weight. never too much hiking, but enough to push myself and feel good at the end of the day.
I went on an outward bound trip for three weeks the year before and I enjoyed Second Nature far more.
Still am in touch with two of the girls who were with me.
I was in Georgia so I can't say anything about any of the other places... also haven't been for 3 years.... but it was the best.
My one complaint is their support in the long term "therapeutic boarding schools." My therapist talked my parents into sending me off which was awful. If there were a way to extend the length of the wilderness programs with stages like... wilderness, village, city or something... i would be in support... assuming the right people were involved. 2-3 months is definitely not long enough to get an extremely self destructive teen to step away for a moment...
I don't think that sending a child away is necessary unless their behavior is life threatening... I was sent away after my best friend died of a heroine overdose, a good move on my parents part seeing that of the other two friends that I spent time with, one is in prison for god knows how long and the other has completely disappeared. Had I hung around after my friend's death, I would undoubtedly be in a similar situation.
-
I've heard of alot of similiar likes and dislikes of the place. The very fact that you were fed into a long term facility on the reccomendation of your therapist is sadly telling.
Glad you feel you had a decent time there. Some of my favorite moments working in the woods was on long treks in canoes or backpacking.
Hard to classify it as therapy, but it was definitely far more interesting than sitting around on your kiester staring at four walls all day long.
My only objection to Second Nature isn't so much the way they are run but has more to do with the nature of student's rights being stomped all over.
No due process in most of the kid's cases.
-
that's a good point. all rights are taken away. i imagine that i was more frustrated about that at the time rather than now. there was a student who turned 18 while i was there and she was driven out to the airport when she requested to leave. she was given her identification, etc. back.
but rights for folks under 18 are limited anywhere, unfortunately.
-
yeah that is sad.. but on the otherhand you ought to look into that law in Washington state that allows kids to "just say no" to unwanted treatment. not sure about the full details of the law but it does look promising.
-
My wife had my son kidnapped and sent to Outback Therapeutic Expedition even though I have joint custody. I went to Utah to try to get him back but Outback made it clear that they would require me to file a lawsuit in Utah to get him back. I couldn't afford to do that. They had cooperated with my wife in hiding him from me in the wilderness and I had no way of finding him.
Outback Therapeutic Expedition knew they were helping to use him as a weapon. There had been no psych eval before he was sent out there, and even when they had one done by their pet Psychologist, the only diagnosis they came up with to keep him was Depression Not Otherwise Specified.
In my opinion, the people at Outback Therapeutic Expedition should be put in Jail.
Why can you not go down to the local court and ask for the Hauge convention to be put into effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conf ... tional_Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conference_on_Private_International_Law)
Several moms and dads have been arrested in Europe, when they have tried to take the children with into another country without agreement from the local court.