Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: katfish on June 04, 2005, 02:06:00 PM

Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 04, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
So, I work with kids and New York state law considers forcing a kid to excersize child abuse, as does California.  No, why would it make sense to send you kid to another state for the sake of having other people do what's illegal for you to do at home?

Does anyone know that laws in Montana around corporal punishment?  Is forced child labor allowed?

I've decided that my new reference to MMS is going to be 'forced labor camp'- for kids!

Welcome to MMS, forced child labor camp.  Your kid will leave knowing the basics on how to chop wood and build fences, ski and rock climb.  She will know how to speak and talk of conquences and accountability for your actions, sadly, she may not quite be able to fully embrace such terms once she is gone because what got her there to begin with may have been the type of issue that isn't best addressed in a fear based type of therapy set up and run by a man with a degree in ecology.  

Disclaimer: we are not responsible if this facade falls apart b/c we were unqualified to really deal with depression, anxiety, sexual abuse, parental negelct and other issues.  Any further emotional/mental damaged such as nightmares, anxiety, suicide, withdrawl, isolation, and extreme confusion and disorientation caused by our aggresive 'therapuetic methods', forced labor and isolation is not our responsibility either.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 04, 2005, 04:39:00 PM
I doubt that any state condones forced child labor, there are just some that chose to ignore it, like Montana. This is the sole reason for so many programs being in such states. A parent in New York, California or any other civilized state would be arrested for child abuse for doing what MMS does on a daily basis. Can you imagine what would happen if a child went to school and told the teacher that their dad made them carry rocks in their back pack, run laps backwards, not speak for months, live in a tent outside by themselves in the snow, called them sluts and laughed at them as they begged to come in just for a minute to get warm? Such behavior would make the evening news, complete with footage of the parent being hauled off to jail and the child being taken away by CPS! MMS and other places like it should not be allowed to exist, plain and simple. Just because all of the girls didn't experience abuse, doesn't make the place acceptable.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 04, 2005, 04:48:00 PM
that is all true.
 :scared:
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 04, 2005, 08:11:00 PM
Since when is chopping wood abuse?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 04, 2005, 09:42:00 PM
From the training I have had in working with children, any forced labor as punishment is considered abuse.  I can't make a kid go out and chop wood, for instance, any more than I can make them write 100 times what they've done wrong, or make them stand in a corner for having not followed the rules.  What they do in Montana is in fact considered abuse in some states, just not in MT, I guess.  I suppose that's why there are so many school there and not to many here in NY or in CA.

check out this site

http://www.childadvocate.org/3_cp.htm (http://www.childadvocate.org/3_cp.htm)
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 04, 2005, 09:51:00 PM
For California attorney general on us of excersize as punishment

http://www.pesoftware.com/Resources/exercise.html (http://www.pesoftware.com/Resources/exercise.html)
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Antigen on June 04, 2005, 10:13:00 PM
Kat, this is a very interesting discussion for a number of reasons.

First off, what you're learning in school is completely at odds w/ the vast majority of American culture. And I think, to a great extent, the old fashioned ways are far superior to the new psychologized, scientized ideas about child rearing.

But there's a bait and switch going on here. When these salesmen describe structure, discipline and accountability we old farts get nostalgic for the good old days. When I was a kid, if I got caught out of bounds (which was not near so often as I actually went exploring) or commiting any other transgression, my dad would give me hard labour. I'd be scraping and painting the house or mowing the lawn or cleaning out a utility room that hadn't seen a broom in years! I was alright w/ that. Even if I was sure my dad was, he was the dad and I took my lumps. Also got the satisfaction of a job well done and being able to call it done and over with, having redeamed myself of the transgression (till next time... heh) Plus, it was my damned house. He never handed me any meaningless, worthless work. It was always something worth doing.

I do pretty much the same thing w/ my kids, thought not quite such hard work. And, like my dad always did, once they get started and show some interest, I forgive them and pitch in. Usually, we all wind up throwing in on whatever the project is.

But that's not what's going on at MMS, is it? But the're bying it. They think these Synanon based programs are just doing things the old fashioned way when, in reality, it's a whole lot closer to good old fashioned Maoist indoctrination.



Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 24, 2005, 09:04:00 PM
HAHA! YOU ROCK! I totally agree....
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 28, 2005, 07:38:00 PM
. . . because California is soooooo successful, right? :razz:
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 28, 2005, 09:47:00 PM
Actually....I think it is what the school is doing..Although they seem to play with the extreme line.
When we would "get out of line" either as a group or individually they would give us consequenses like that.
we would shovel, have projects...ie...personal inteventions..we moved burn piles, built fences, dug out stumps,
we did the same as group yet we had pysical challenges. ie, skiing up the summit of something or acomplishing a certian mile ski.
These things wouldn't happen unless we started the day with a goal and one or more persons would not finish the goal. Even as a group we would build fences and have hug projects to do....anyone remember PNAIS?? I remember we liked the huge project because it kept us on our computers but not on our bikes.
Well my point is that MMS did the same thing that your dad did...just on a bigger scale.
and this whole abuse thing is getting OUT OF HAND.The word is being thrown out there with no true validity to it.
Did we enjoy every little thing we went through at MMS?? did we agree with everything that we did at mms?? No
Are we not better people for it??? did it teach us strength and skills for life, Are we not able to better handle what normally would be hard situations?? let me give you an example of my life and what im talking about. the first year after MMS I was raped....i wouldn't have known whaqt do with out MMS. My parents didn't even beleive me and the issues with my mom got worse and i only know how to deal with her due to the skills i learned....
Anyway im rambling...just wanted to put in my two sense
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 28, 2005, 11:03:00 PM
"Are we not better people for it??? did it teach us strength and skills for life, Are we not able to better handle what normally would be hard situations?? "

I don't feel like I am a better person for having gone to MMS- I certainly don't feel at all that MMS taught me anything about strength and skills I need for life- in fact, I feel that I wasn't at all given tools to succeed- I acquired those much later and on my own and am still acquiring them.  Especially in terms of education, MMS did me a great diservice.  
I was not able to deal with situations at all when I left MMS.  I was so confused, a real mess when I realized that I had not learned really anything about how to handle life.  I learned at MMS to do lots of physical activity and cower down to what MMS dicatated was the right way to do things and also how to feel anxious over really stupid things like not doing thing the right way, their way.
my 2 cents
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2005, 12:15:00 AM
Okay Kat.....maybe its just time you own the fact that you were a, (excuse the language,) shit before MMS....a shit at mms and .............
you were given a opportunity to chnange your life and become a much better person, take tools that were shown and given to you and make a change within yourself. If you didn't learn what was taught how is that MMS's fault??Why is there fault you walked away with nothing????
Why is it that out of ALLLLL the girls that went to MMS you are the loudest?? you claim to be have been "ABUSED" yet you have not been specific and have yet to explain your experience at mms.
MMS was harder when you left...I remember what it was like when you were there.
Just own your own actions and responisbilites and relax....it is what 14 years now since youve been at the school??? I still remember the day at mms when the staff had planned something for us and did we do the afternoon activity?? No, why??, cause ALL 5 FOUNDING members were on the phone with  YOU.
Every founding staff at that time did exactly what they asked the girls to do...skies...bike rides,...hikes. They ALL went with us. Im just saying they didn't expect more from us that they didn't require themselves to do.
I see it this way....its been 10-14 years since some of the old timers have been there.
MOVE ON!!! BEEN THERE, DONE THAT..GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE AND GET A LIFE!!!!!!!
Thats my 2 cents
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: sunshine on June 29, 2005, 12:47:00 AM
There is no need to get aggressive about this subject, anonymous. Just in case you havent read the hundreds  of other postings on this site, everyone has a different opinion about what happened while wewere there and we are all entitled to it. The fact remains that kat does not feel like mms is jsutified in the actions that they took in our therapy. it could have been more professional, less personal, less cussing, yelling and belittling, etc. All that shit bothered me, to be honest. And I relate to a lot of what Kat has said in lots of her posts. A lot of times i know she gets singled out for being a basher, but really she is strong, and she knows how to deal withthat type of criticism. As to the whole getting a life thing, we all have lives. Do you not have a life because you also sit here and post on this site your opinions? NO, so dont tell people that they need to get a life because they do not share your opinion. Your opinion is yours and it reflects how you have dealt with what happened there. Good for you, I am glad that you did a lot of growing there. However, many of us did not actually start growing until we actually left there and let the stigma of "having to go the mms way" behind.

All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life -- to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child -- to make a happy home -- to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.
--

Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 29, 2005, 02:22:00 AM
woa, hostilities! Is that you, Betsy?  Say it ain't so! lol.  Dang, record time!

I think I'll just agree with lina oh so fina on this one.  Beyond Christians protesting against fags/dykes I don't think I've heard so much rage since...well, previous posts.

Also, don't anyone forget to sign the petition!

http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html)

ps. this is my life, see above, among other things... I do want to, if I can, make a career out of making public harmful effects of such institutions, educating the public, getting places regulated, etc.  I don't want any other girl to have to go what I went through- not what YOU went through,  again, but me me me me me me.  Oh, and what a few others girls went through as well.

ma three cent.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2005, 02:40:00 AM
Everyone should consider signing the petition. I realize some people have downplayed its importance but none of us know the impact it might have on the people who will receive it. So I vote that everyone sign the petition today, because time is running out.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2005, 03:55:00 AM
hahaha....funnny....good stuff...... good stuff... no that wasn;t me kat but thanks anyway.
I do think we should move on though. I agree, been there done that. Makes sense...no???
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2005, 09:58:00 AM
i all the girls have moved on, just want to bring stuff to light.  that's different that was implied when one say 'move on' which is often intended to mean 'let go', in other words, stop talking about it  and move forward. I'm not sure why people seem to think why you can't talk about the harmful effects of MMS on your life and be moving forward simltaneuously.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: OverLordd on June 29, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
On key with what the annon above me said, what in the hell do people mean when they say. "Let go" "Move on." And why do people do that? I mean I have a friend that went to CSA and she says. "Yeah they abused me, but I dont really care, I'm used to abuse in my life." Thats basicly what she said when I asked why she was not angry for what had happened. I dont understand why people "Move on."
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2005, 11:19:00 AM
A lot of people move on because of several reasons. First, there is a lot of brainwashing that goes on both to the kids and the parents through seminars, etc. So when the kids get out they are told not to talk about it and so are the parents. All in the interest of what's "best" for the child, of course.

Side note: Amazing statement some of these places make in their own manuals. Parents sign an agreement that their child will not live within 100 miles of the program after coming out for the "image" of the school. Hell, what does that tell you?

The entire time they are there it is drilled into their heads that they are to blame and that their parents don't even care. So they don't tell when they get out. Plus some sign a contract agreeing not to talk bad about the program, I've heard.

I also think it has a lot to do with the age of the kid when they went in. I think kids who went to a program when they were 13 or 14 will have a harder time than a kid who went in at 17. It has to do with brain development.

So, time goes by, years sometimes, before they even talk to anyone about their experiences. Many of them, by that time, have figured out it's easier to let it go and move on that to try to tackle it.

First, many are scared their parents will get mad if they even broach the subject. After all, parents paid a lot of money and many don't want to think it was all for not. And there is the guilt factor of sending your kid somewhere that turned out to be abusive. Way easier to just not talk about it. Second, many are scared of the program operators. I've heard people say they are still scared, 5-10 years later.

Another point to consider is that it depends on the level in which they went into the program. Some of these kids were seriously abused before going in. So what they experienced there is more of the same. Their idea of what constitutes abuse might be different from another person's perspective who has never been abused.

I hope that more people who have been abused or neglected in these programs will speak up and will come forward. I can't imagine that those who sing the praises of the program did not at least see and witness abuse if the were not victims themselves (I'm talking about programs where there are many allogations of abuse.)
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 29, 2005, 11:54:00 AM
Hey B,

Hmmm.. that wasn't you?  I'm suspicuous.  who's got it in them to get so mad at my little satirical post??? -shrug-

anyway, I posted about the move on vs. move forward bit, think there's an improtant distinction to be made there, doesn't that make sense?

 [ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-06-29 08:56 ]
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2005, 06:38:00 PM
hey kat....not sure...goodness....two people thinking alike!! AHHHH, what are we gonna do?? :razz:
but I do ask a funny favor of you..
Well my eduaction goes so far and your attempt to sound intellectual is hard to understand. You use big words and my small brain can't compute....please  put your essasy or writings into terms my small simple mind can understand...
THXS
B  :lol:
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 29, 2005, 06:52:00 PM
Hey B,

I don't remember using big words- let me know what I can clarify for you.  I certainly want to be clear above all else.
Sometimes it's hard to convey my meaning b/c I think these are much more complicated issue that maybe some people would like to make it seem- but anything that's unclear or confusing please tell me! Certainly I think complex stuff can be conveyed in simpler language. I think, for the most part, I don't have a very sophisticated vocubulary, though.  Truthfully I frequently feel a bit inadequate as a result.

kat

PS- lets go back to the other forum, I want to hear more about what's going on with you!
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on June 29, 2005, 10:38:00 PM
hey kat
just wondering what forum you want to go back too?? would love to tell you my life and the fucking shit ive been through outside of mms....let me tell you its been fucked up....
B
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 29, 2005, 11:27:00 PM
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on June 30, 2005, 12:11:00 AM
Safe Choices for Troubled Teens
Residential treatment centers for troubled teens are plagued by allegations of abuse and ineffectiveness. But do anguished parents have an alternative?
By Anthony Meza-Wilson and Christy Harrison
 

http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/ (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/)
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: bandit1978 on July 08, 2005, 04:41:00 PM
What does "move on" mean anyway?  

When former "students" from these places leave and continue with their education or just grow up a bit, they gain a new perspective, and, naturally, might look back on these places and think  "Oh my God...how could anyone think that this program is healthy?"  

I mean,  the people who implement these programs really have no college education or degrees, they are not licensed to do anything except maybe drive a car!  

I studied psychology and sociology for 2 years in college, before majoring in nursing.  I see now just how inept the staff are at these places-   They are in a position to judge a child's behavior (in a program), evaluate their progress,  implement punishment, ect... what the fuck do they know??  If these people worked at psych hospitals, they would maybe be allowed to work as a technician and take vital signs, no way would they be evaluating performance and writing progress notes- that would be illegal and illegitimate!   Looking back, it's pretty scary to see how they let these people work at these facilities.  

Are these people even certified in CPR?  Imagine, these morons discipline and restrain  and generally rule over children, I hope they at are required to know CPR.  

So to those of you who are telling others to "move on", you obviously have not learned to think independently nor gained any professional insight into the what is going on at these places.  

Perhaps *you* are the ones who should move on- to college.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on July 08, 2005, 05:15:00 PM
You know, if there's no licensing or any regulations, what's to say they are even trained to perform CPR. Quite a scary thought, huh?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 12, 2005, 02:51:00 PM
what about this program do you think made it such an ineffective program?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 10:49:00 AM
They aren't unlicensed... they have a group of licensed staff around to 'treat' these disorders.  They have PHds and masters in psychiatry, and couseling... so get off your god damned high horses and SHUT UP.  this place is legit so GET OFF IT.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 02:39:00 PM
wow, i'm an old chap.  that's hilarious.  never been called that before :smile:    and they don't have a website with glossy pics.  not yet anyway.  and they don't just have people who "wanders by the facility every month or so"... completely bullshit.  there is a licenced and extremely qualified staff there AT ALL TIMES.  get your information straight.  this may be true of other programs but NOT of mms.  these people are wonderful human beings and are definitely qualified to deal with those with mental disorders.  why do people keep making shit up on here?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on August 16, 2005, 03:56:00 PM
i guess they've made some improvements, just wasn't the case while i was there-  maybe your right, hard to believe, and yet John did serious damage to some girls. I personally would would like to see him out all together.  i dont trust John at all, speaking to former staff and my experience, i would doubt highly he would allow much competency among staff if it went against his vision of MMS- like it was while i was there (physiological stress and labor as therapy). Just look at Gary.  
i look forward to hearing from girls who are there now, in the future.  that's really the only way of knowing the day to day affairs.  again, checks need to be in place.  things happnened before that were unaccpetqble, nothing will change that fact, including arguing that things are different now.  I believe John is guilty of misleading parent and hampering many girls lives, instead of helping them repair the damage, leaving them to do twice as much work to lift themselves up...i have heard this enough to know that its so and its very sad.  

great MMS made changes, now we need people to go in and make sure of it, often.  and studies done too. let the games begin.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 04:03:00 PM
Anon "who is not an old chap:" is there a LICENSED therapist who leads each and EVERY group session?
IF THERE IS NOT, and if ANY of these Group Session are led by some staff member is IS NOT LICENSED, then SOMETHING IS TERRIBLY WRONG, and a great injustice is being done to each and every girl sitting in on these little group sessions!

That is the bottom line!
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 05:28:00 PM
i hope you all are aware that your use of the term 'licensing' is misleading.  

The State of Montana does not have any have ANY licensing NOR regulations for these programs, so even if MMS has an MSW or whatever, as they did before with Gary, it is still NOT a licensed facility. These facilities fall into 'substitute care' providers. Legislation, such as fingerprinting and background checks do not apply to these programs. There are no rules that they have to follow.

They can basically do what they want and no parent would be the wiser.  There is no data on the effectiveness, etc... Remmeber all those ed cons who spoke so highly of MMS?  Appearances can be EXTREMELY deceiving and the kids pay the price.

Regulation would require not only allegations of abuse to be reported, but penalties for not doing so.  Allow the state to inspect the site WITHOUT having to wait for allegations of abuse to be reported, parents to visit freely and AT ANY TIME  WITHOUT WARNING to ensure their childs safety.  Require a screeing process (psychological, etc) and written plan identifiying how will be addressed, and yet John Mercer lobbied against this.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on August 16, 2005, 05:54:00 PM
that's true and, incidentally, they would also require their methods be subject to peer review  through an accredidation program such as COA, AEE, CARF, JCAHO.

This is the most sensible thing I've heard in a loooooooong time.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 07:05:00 PM
yes, a licensed therapist leads EACH and EVERY group session.  i've said my peace.  and i agree that these programs should be regulated.  they ARE accredited though, and go through a very long process to become so, and renew it.  i agree that some girls were hurt by the school which is awful and they should somehow be given compensation for that... like all programs, they've changed and developed and are running very smoothly now!  haven't had an intervention since '03 either!  something's working right.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on August 16, 2005, 07:07:00 PM
accredited by who?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on August 16, 2005, 10:44:00 PM
none of those organizations are accrediting- not in the the therapuetic sense, where peer review is required.  Like all scientists, to establish legitimacy and lend not just credibility but verify the methods you use have been researched  and are ethical you need accredation through institutions like COA- Council on Accreditation, AEE- Association for Experential Education, CARF Commission on Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities, JCAHO Join Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare.  MMS is not accredited, only through educational orgs.

They basically hold themselves up to their own standards and those may be as arbitray as they were then...or not.  Either way, they are not letting anyone make that determination but themselves, therein lies the problem.  They messed with girls heads before and came across as quite legitimate then, certainly it would be foolish to find solice in words like- 'but they are different now'.

I'll be willing to bet a million bucks they still use labor and psysiological stress to break kids down.  That is John Mercer's model (of course other schools do the same thing) and I find it highly dubious that will change.  He knows no other methods.


Waygookin- you'll get a kick out of this one, did you know that the students did all the paperwork required for accreditation through PNAIS?  (welcome relief from the strenuous physical labor, i've heard)  and it cost parents how much a day for kids to do this schools work?
LOL and this is therapuetic how?  Ladies that were there, what did John or Collee say this was a metaphor for?[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-16 19:47 ]
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 16, 2005, 11:28:00 PM
it's a legit form of therapy... behavioral modification.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on August 17, 2005, 12:59:00 AM
that has not been sumbitted to peer review- not the way they implement it.  Just ask the Phd's.  So no, these methods have in fact not been deemed effective, in fact its the opposite- find out for yourself, drop them an e-mail.   BM is generally associated with postive reenforcement, from what i've read- not the constant negative/punishment/streefule MMS style treatment.  If you e-mail this PhD she will glady give you the facts on forced labor and excersize as punishment, MMS style.  She and I have spoken- i assure you, these methods havenot been determined as beneficial and have been documented to cause more problems.  Let me know what she says.

http://www.nospank.net/pinto.htm (http://www.nospank.net/pinto.htm)

kat
[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-16 22:40 ]
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Troll Control on August 17, 2005, 08:44:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-08-16 20:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"it's a legit form of therapy... behavioral modification."

Wow, all these years I never knew the rats in the Skinner Box were getting therapy.  They must be happy, well-adjusted rats.  :roll:
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on August 17, 2005, 10:48:00 AM
LOL- DJ that was funny.  Ok, for those who don't know, BF skinner suumary below-  
  Skinners theories are completely depressing- I read somewhere that Harvard students were getting very depressed after studying Skinner (really!) LOL

http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/ere ... story.html (http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/eres/EDSPC715_MCINTYRE/BehavioristHistory.html)

B.F. Skinner's Contributions
 Skinner, the greatest behavioral psychologist of all time, is known as the "father" of operant conditioning. He rejected the idea of inner causes for behavior, and placed emphasis on observable behavior as opposed to the theorizing, based on unverifiable evidence, often done by others.  He discovered that whether a response to a stimulus continues to occur depends on the consequence that follows that behavior.  The promptness of administration of that consequence is also important (more timely consequences have a greater effect).  He also experimented with different "schedules of reinforcement" (see below), and devised a procedure known as "shaping" (see below
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Troll Control on August 17, 2005, 12:51:00 PM
This is why the statement I quoted below is so completely laughable.

Behaviorism, in relation to humans, is a dead ideology.  It doesn't work.

In complex organisms, like people, it is necessary to change thought patterns (cognitions) to make effective, LONG TERM behavior changes.

Sure, put a kid in a modified Skinner Box, i.e. RTC, BMW, WTP, etc., and you'll get a kid that quickly learns to behave "correctly" within the framework of that PARTICULAR environment.

Unfortunately, the "new" behaviors are specific to ONLY THAT ENVIRONMENT, and are quickly extinguished when the "subject" is removed from the environment in which the desired behaviors were reinforced.

The other problem with this type of program, is that they don't use "positive reinforcement," i.e. rewarding desired behaviors, but rather "negative reinforcement," i.e. the REMOVAL of an UNPLEASANT STIMULUS upon the completion of the desired behavior.

The staff literally terrorizes the child into submission and never lets up until the "undesirable" behavior is no longer exhibited.  

The problem with negative reinforcement is twofold.  One, it, like positive reinforcement, has only a short-term, environment-specific effect, and two, it works even less well than positive reinforcement, which, as shown by literally volumes of research, doesn't provide any significant change over time.

So, these BM techniques, simply put, foster behavior changes that are both environment specific and short-term.

So, anon poster, please do edify the rest of us how BM is "legitimate therapy."  Am I just missing something, or are you privy to groundbreaking research that shows BM to be on par with or superior to cognitive therapy, or perhaps rational-emotive therapy?

Please educate us.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on August 17, 2005, 01:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-08-16 07:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"They aren't unlicensed... they have a group of licensed staff around to 'treat' these disorders.  They have PHds and masters in psychiatry, and couseling... so get off your god damned high horses and SHUT UP.  this place is legit so GET OFF IT."


can you even get a masters in psychiatry? lol

Dj, well said!!  Waygookin,   :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-08-17 10:12 ]
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Troll Control on August 17, 2005, 01:47:00 PM
No, Kat, you cannot get a "Master's of Psychiatry."  There's no such thing.  A psychiatrist, by definition, is a MEDICAL DOCTOR.  So, this is an MD, not an MA OR PhD.

Also, there's no such thing as a "Master's in Counseling" either.  One can be an MSW, like me, or an MA in Psychology.

This is one IGNORANT BLOWHARD you're dealing with here.

Yeah, that program sounds REALLY legitimate.  They go one step further than phony diplomas, they invent new DEGREES.   :roll:

_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-17 10:51 ]
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2005, 07:33:00 PM
you guys are all fucking annoying
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2005, 07:37:00 PM
yea!  And funny...ok, ok, and knowledgeable
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2005, 07:42:00 PM
and right.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 17, 2005, 09:46:00 PM
What's "fucking annoying" about someone explaining something and setting things straight?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Troll Control on August 19, 2005, 08:24:00 AM
These type of folks don't like the truth or being confronted about lying/misinforming.

Without lies, manipulation, mis- and disinformation, these places would cease to exist.

Facts are facts.  These places don't "treat" anything.  They don't work.  ALL impartial studies show this statement to be true.

Where else can you go to protect your revenue stream except to la-la land...?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 19, 2005, 12:55:00 PM
If these places "dont' work" how come it worked for me and so many of my friends?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Troll Control on August 19, 2005, 02:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-08-19 09:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If these places "dont' work" how come it worked for me and so many of my friends?"

"It" didn't work for you.  You grew up a bit.

YOU decided to change your attitude/behavior, a change that would have come naturally anyway.

The only changes "it" made in you was to instill a strong desire to avoid punishment or getting sent back (or somewhere worse).

Read the studies.  They ALL show that this so-called "treatment" doesn't work.

I am glad though and happy for you that you're doing well.  That's ALWAYS nice to hear...

Good luck.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on August 19, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
I disagree but that's ok.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Troll Control on August 19, 2005, 03:38:00 PM
I think that if you're really interested in how the places "work," or don't, you should take a look at some of the research that's been done by the National Institute of Health (NIH) under the guidance of the Surgeon General.

The studies are definitive.  Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules, and if you feel it worked for you, whether it did or not, the important thing is that you are healthy today.

As long as you weren't abused, I could not care any less how you got that way (healthy), but thank God you did.  

To me what matters most is that you are healthy and happy and I'm happy for you that you are...
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on September 02, 2005, 10:02:00 AM
Hey DJ,

Eventually it will all come out...  

http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/cfsnews/2005news/A_START.html (http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/cfsnews/2005news/A_START.html)

kat
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Troll Control on September 02, 2005, 10:08:00 AM
True indeed, true indeed...
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 12:43:00 AM
well, the important thing is that John can afford his $80,000? porsche.  
Hey, think he'll split some of all his cash with us who helped build up his school??
http://bsk.pca.org/pages/members/mercer.htm (http://bsk.pca.org/pages/members/mercer.htm)
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: BarnardlyB on September 07, 2005, 08:55:00 PM
Where do you guys find this stuff?? why do you even care??
my dad had a porche......so
Anyway...don't see the point.
I do agree with you though Kat, wish he would hand down the payment of helping to build the school.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on September 08, 2005, 10:51:00 AM
LOL- I want a porche too!!  And payment for the work  I did, the work WE ALL did seems only fair!

B- what improvements can you recall making to the school?


I remmember building those pathways.


For a while they had me (on my personal intervention) doing meaningless labor but I think it was around that time they realized that they could have us do work of bennifit to the school.

Of course, wood chopping for John and Colleen's cabin, oiling the cabins...


trying to think-
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: BarnardlyB on September 08, 2005, 01:16:00 PM
Hey Kat,
Well I might need a few pages......
-well the walkways obviously
-we now have a little fence all around the school circle.
-moved horse shit pile
-moved burn piles
-fixed all fences out by the tool shed
-new fences for the horses even on behind the lounge.
-personal intervention built a round horse pen (circle) to work with the horses, behind the tack shed.
-new fence for the hill behind the school, by the house
-Huge kitchen build by the ski cabin
-AAAAlllllll the ground was cleared from the road to the ski cabin so you could see the ski cabin as you came to it
-All the ground cleared out from the front of the ski cabin.
-Camping sites set up at the ski cabin

So these are just a few things......
Let me think more
PLEASE don't turn this into some bull shit topic of how we were abused or used or whatever it is you want to say.
I did these things and im proud of all the work ive done.....so please don't turn it into soemthing other than that.....work I did
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: BarnardlyB on September 08, 2005, 01:17:00 PM
OHHHH YEAH,
One more thing....how could i forget.
MY STUMPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
U remember that don't you Kat????
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on September 08, 2005, 01:40:00 PM
hey you,

no, i'm no turning the topic, though i think you understand my opinion on the matter- i've said enough on that.


The stumps!!! yes!!! how many did u do??  wasn't that a personal intervention?

I also forgot about the fence building, jesus, how could i forget, but I recall a lot of involving the areas outside of MMS- 'volunteer work'.  We didn't build many fences for the school while I was there.

Now I remember the daisy and knap weed picking- jesus, that was tougher that it sounds, right B?  The purpose was... because it was a noxious weed taking over the field.  Is that still a problem over there? I wonder if it was truly meaningless or if we had an impact.

ice picking (damn hard)
rock picking (but I remmeber just taking them out only to put them back- hmmm...)
 

more later

ps- i too also feel like the work i did was pretty incredible, its hard to imagine doing so much work, I've never had to work that hard since- physically and even emotionally (but if only in the sense I had to put myself on the back burner, in  a way, and keep plugging away until i reached the end).  The endurance it took to do that, plus the exercise on top of the work crew, almost seems it took super human strength to endure and survive until the end.
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: BarnardlyB on September 08, 2005, 08:42:00 PM
Hey Kat,
Yeah I understand your side of the issue and respect that...as well as you know mine and I hope respect that...


Yeah the stumps were a personal intevention. I actually don't remember how many i did..Member Alexis and I sleeping in the tent in 30 degree weather!!!  hahaha :lol:
That was fun..let me tell you!!!


Oh the Daisys,...That was my first summer there.
Member the Daisy song???!!!  pickin....pickin,...picken them daisys down....
(I think)

It actually did some good. Not as many but they eventually started to grow back but not as bad...you can't tell we have daisys.
God that was alot of field to pick!!!!!!!!!!!


The excercise....wow kat let me tell you. You had it easy..everyday for half an hour it was intense vigorous exercise......
we even had leg day, arm day, Friday was Mile day..., and in between we had our normal daily activity. 2-5 everyday was either a bike ride, hike and or ski. And the weekend was as always workcrew.......Damn can't believe i did that for 3 whole years. Its a wonder i still stand !!!!! hehehe :lol:
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on September 11, 2005, 10:36:00 AM
hey b,

ho long were u and Alexis out there?  How did A do at MMS, by the way?  Still talk to her?  Barely remeber her, but recall she was quite sweet.


let's see...


how about picking up garbage on the highway
& in the woods

dumpster cleaning
van cleaning


trying to remember the chores too, did you still work in pairs after I left.


morning:
kitchen
lodge
cabins
what else?


evening:
horse duty
and?

we had free time from 1pm-2pm and then again at 6pm-7pm if we did have group, correct?
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: BarnardlyB on September 11, 2005, 05:45:00 PM
Hey Kat....
Yeah i remember.
I never talked to Alexas after MMS. She left and suprized everyone by telling me I was full of shit in her closure group.

U know what Kat??!!! I remember everything.  We even changed the chore schedule.

7-7:15            Wake Up
7:15-7:35       Breakfast
7:35-9:00       Morning Chores/Free time
9:00-9:30       Exercise
9:30-9:45       Morning Meeting
9:45-10          Clean Up and Ready for school
10:30-12:30    School
12:30-12:45    Free time
12:45-1/1:15   Lunch
1-2                 Chores
2-5                 Afternoon Activity
5-5:30            Free time
5:30-6:00       Dinner
6-7                 Chores/Free time
7-7:30           Therapy Assigment time
7:30------     Group


Chores:
Cabin 1  Horse and lounge
Cabin 2  Kitchen and Garbage and Floors
Cabin 3  Sauna and House
Cabin 4  Off
And than we rotated.
I believe we even had another chore for the house and sauna day but I forget what it was.


Well thats it for now what i can remember.....
B
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on September 11, 2005, 06:26:00 PM
what the ???  Betsy, seriously, you are ... amazing!  
how can u remember all that in such detail????  you should be... i don't know, something that requires a great memory b/c serriously, that's crazy!!!!!!!


So u ate then excersized- god, that would have made me sick, i think i would have rather had it the way it was before - not 100% on the exact times though- you probably could fis that for me, b. LOL.  damn!

7-7:15 Wake Up
7:15-7:45 excersize
78:00-9:00 Morning Chores/Free time
9:00-9:30 Morning Meeting
??
10:30-12:30 School
12:30-12:45 Free time
12:45-1/1:15 Lunch
1-2 Chores
2-5 Afternoon Activity
5-5:30 Free time
5:30-6:00 Dinner
6:30-7:30 Chores/Free time
7:30------ Group

10 or 11 lights out

this was, from what i recall M-W, the other days no school, right b?  did that change after I left?

Th-Sun what did we have during school time- big trip or day long trips were reserved for these days, right?
Also, I vagule recall work crew in the mornings on some days and not during intervention, do u remember B?

talk to you soon!!

kat
[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-09-11 15:28 ]
Title: forced child labor camp
Post by: katfish on September 11, 2005, 06:31:00 PM
lol- alexis said you were full of it, huh?  didn't you hate that?  sometimes i felt student would just say that and it would set u back in the eyes of the staff sometimes, even though it wasn't always true![ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-09-11 15:34 ]