Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Dr. Rick on April 06, 2006, 05:05:00 PM
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WOW!!! You have to love the age in which we live. I found this site by total chance. (Actually, while looking for pairing's for an upcoming golf tournament) I cannot believe all of the discussions, posts, and ex-grads of the Seed on this board. I simply had no idea that anyone from an era long-gone was still actively acknowledging this time in his or her life. I have often felt as I was the only one who ever wondered; what ever happened to ... or what about...etc. The funny thing is I remember everything from my 30 years ago like it was yesterday. After reading many of the posts on this board, I feel like I have just stepped back into 1976. I remember: rap sessions, moral inventories, jingle bells, PB sandwiches, open night, straightening hundreds of chairs for Friday nights, the nasty smell of cigarette smoke layered on the concrete walls and floors, the softball games out back (and when Art would explode if his team lost), as a weekender sometimes going to homes which had little food and often no bed for me, the apartments, Big Jim from Georgia, little Chris, Cliff, all of the staff mentioned on this board, etc.
However, what I remember the most, are the people and the relationships we shared during this brief but very important time in our lives. Again, I often wonder what ever happened to so and so? I do not have nor do I carry ANY bad feelings about this time and quite frankly do not remember anyone from the Seed staff ever mistreating me or hurting me in any way. (Perhaps I should, I don't know) Additionally, I have a much better appreciation and understanding of how much my parents loved
me and what they went through during this time in our lives.
At the end of the day, the Seed, without question, put one very insecure, stupid, bad-attitude teenager on the right road which has gone on to accomplish many great things in his life and for that I am blessed and thankful.
Anyone from 75-77 remember these folks:
Duane (Cameron) D.
Terry R.
Ann Lee D.
John A.
Chris C.
Bonnie H.
Chase C.
Terri S.
Shaun T.
Lastly, Greg, I think I know who you are. Let's rap. And can anyone from this era remember the name of a very pretty blonde, tanned, blue-eyed girl from Ft. Lauderdale who drove her father's Mercedes convertible?
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Dr. Rick -
So which Seed were you in. I looked at that list of people and did not recognize any names but maybe Ft. Lauderdale will--he has a better memory than I do.
Take care, Magpie
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Welcome!
I went to St Pete, so you may have me confused. Email me or send me a private message if you want to talk, or just post it here.
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Sorry. I forgot there was more than one Seed. I was at Ft. Lauderdale on SR84. However, many of my friends had gone to St. Pete.
Greg: Do the names Brad W. , Bonnie H., Ann Lee D. , ring a bell? They were in St. Pete in 75-76 time frame. I have the faces of many others but it's been so long I can only remember their first names, which would not help you.
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I was in St. Pete Seed in '74/75 and moved to Ft. Laud in '76 and stayed around until '79. So I wouldn't have known anyone at St. Pete after '75. It was also a good experience for me and my life. There were some tough times but I grew from them. I hope you are doing well. I might know who you are but I am not sure. You can send me a Private Message. Did you live in Ft. Lauderdale and then go away to college?
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I graduated in mid 74 and didn't have much to do with the seed after that. So no, I don't remember those names.
Sorry.
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There was a Colin S during that time that I know, and I also know what became of him.
If this rings a bell, let me know.
Thanks.
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DR RICK - were you in Ohio? Are you a school counselor or psychologist?
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Sorry, I should have stated in my original post that I was @ the Seed in Ft.Lauderdale. Actually, I do not recall any other Seeds but the one's in Florida. Memory loss I guess.
In answer to the question, I'm neither a counselor or a psychologist. I'm in the medical/surgery field. I specialize with patients who suffer from Parkinson's disease and Essential tremor.
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Dr Rick I was at the seed during the years that you had mentioned. If you want to chat a bit please send me a PM.
Nice to hear from you and glad to see you are well and feel positively about your experiences.
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Seth - I will send you a PM. In the interim, the Seth I am thinking about shared an apartment with another guy who owned a pet snake, lived near some railroads tracks next door to war veteran who buried his car in the backyard and would take newcomers to the Seed in the AM in the back of his old pickup truck. Is this one in the same? I hope you are doing well.
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Yup thats me. Ohh yea
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Seth, I didn't know you had lived in the apartment in Hollywood. It was really sort of a cottage or shack - the porch was dirt, the doors were so narrow we had to saw the legs off our couch to get it thru the door, and you had to walk thru the shower to get into the back bedroom - what a dump! Actually, those were some of my happiest Seed days - I lived there with Mitch, Mike and maybe one other person. I worked with Jim Helm for the one-armed plater. We were far from staff and other seed kids, and had a lot of freedom, comparatively. We used to hold wrestling matches, fool around and laugh like crazy. No wonder staff broke us up before too long!
The guy who buried a VW in his front yard was our neighbor - he had the house surrounded by sandbags, and he used to wear a uniform and was never out during the day, only at night when he would rant at rave at 3 am about blacks and jews - truly scary.
Odd how much I loved that place. That was before Mitch became a snooty insider with a fancy job title. He was my best friend for a while, though.
w
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Yea I lived in the hollywood apt / dump. I remember a sign that said "don't kill the mice, they eat roaches." then Mark G brought home some ferrets - they ate the mice. Lived there with Jack H, Craig D, Jeff and ??? (brothers from Jupiter) - we also had the place next door (opposite the crazy guy) - I think Jeff N lived there as well
the remoteness, and proximity to Jaxsons, made it a pretty cool place
G
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Heck I loved living there.
The guy next door was a war veteran who's war inujuries had sadly their toll.
Myself and a couple other guys were the first to live there as we had moved in shortly after graduation our program... so it was all graduates for a very long time. As you mentioned tho those cottages were eventually rented out to guys who were on the program. I believe they were owned by a family who had a son on the program at one time.
We did a lot of fishing in those days so we were always finding new ways to cook kingfish and dolphin. We also made a few trips to disneyworld. I believe it was Bruce S who had the boa, and another guy George Z also lived there. There were both great guys and we had a lot of good times living there. Yea they were kinda dumpy but it didnt matter to me. I think that I was still pumping gas part time at a gas station somewhere so it was probably all I could afford anyway.
George had this hamster or gerbil or some wierd assed rodent type thing and he would imitate the noise that it made and have us all rolling in laughter.
Definately had some good times there.
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Hey sorry about that!!!
That previous messaged about the cottages was by me. I forgot to log in and it seems that I accidentally posted anonomously.
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Something is kind of interesting here. While there are a few women who post here and speak of good times, etc., they are few and far between.
Most often, it's the males who seemed to have had "normal" things in their lives that they equate with happiness while they were involved with the seed. Maybe more balanced and less affected? I dunno.
True, most of that fun took place "off campus." And too much of anything always seems to have been found out and busted up by the staff.
Does anyone besides me see that striking difference between the female and male experience when it comes to off time and "fun"?
Were there two standards of acceptable behavior -two kinds of fun that could be had? Boy fun and girl fun? We all sat through the same program.
Just wondering.
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Well I had lots of fun. We had crazy boat rides and camping. We stayed up late playing games and cards. Most of us girls in Apartments taught each other how to cook different things. I remember great dinner parties, cooking thanksgiving dinner for a group of people. I also remember going out to dinner to really nice restaurants. Remember the French place in Ft. Laud. called LaDome--I think that was the name. One of my roommates, Lourdes and I worked down at the Sunrise cinema at night part time and use to have a blast singing songs in the small booth while we sold tickets--she use to take me to Little Havana and we would eat Cuban food and go to movies with her Grandma. We did a lot of fishing too. The H sisters and I use to do lots of fun stuff, shopping, going to St. Pete. It was like living the clean life of a teen--I missed it earlier in my teen life pre-seed. It was fun and I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Wow! La Dome~~! I went there lots of times. It was a great spot for birthdays and anniversaries.
Speaking for myself tho I used to have a great time "on campus" as well. We used to fix all kinds of electrical and mechanical stuff. Had a blast doing everything and working with the other guys.
We rented a front end loader and filled in the back field so that it was level so we could play ball back there. That was a blast.
I remember one day working in the back with Johnny G. I think we were bending some big pipes to use as electrical conduits for ballfield lights. John had kinda a belly which ummm somewhat "projected out" shall we say. I remember teasing him because only the top of his belly had gotten sunburned.
I remember hooking up the final leg of wiring for the ballfield and being asked "Are you sure you have it right". And of course I replied "fuck yea" with a grin. And then we flipped the switch and there was a small explosion. Pretty embarassing but we all laughed our asses off.
And then there was the singing. We sang all kinda stuff and some played guitars. Some of the harmony stuf we did rivaled Manhatten Transfer. There was boxing too The girls used to sometimes do some kinda line dancing. There was even dirty jokes.
Naaa I gotta say that I had blast.
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I married one of those chicks. I remember in the Michael Jackson "Thriller" day, she taught a group of about 20-30 girls the whole dance.
They also used to spend hours shelling at the beach. I still have of bunch of beautiful shells from another lady that passed on that fill two large lamps in my living room.
Trust me even when we got divorced it happened on leap year...so we only had to remember the day every four years...(there was alittle humor in everything)...
We all had fun...
I remember hours of riding waves..no boards...just body surfing... It still brings a smile to my face when I smell the beach air and feel the sunshine...lots of great memories...and yes football on the beach....I must admit I hated it for a couple of years...until I learned to catch a long pass...I still love playing football with my family to this day...
:grin:
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I think, Stripe, what you are witnessing is not a difference in sex, but more of a difference between Art's favorites and the average seedling.
I mean, if you were on staff, no one was really telling you when to pee, marking your defecations down in that little book (just what the hell did they do with that book? What was the purpose?) and no one was force feedling you wet PJ sandwiches and little cups of cool-aide, keeping you up all night writing confessionals and making you hokie pokie in the parking lot in front of your old "druggie friends" hoping to break your spirit.
So yeah, these guys who bought all the way in and decided that yes, it was reasonable to have Daddie Art decide who you could date and where you should work, how you should dress and act and who you could talk to..sure they had some good times. They were doing exactly what they thought was reasonble, and had like minded people to do it with. Those of us that were counting the days to freedom and trying to find private glimpses of our real selves without getting in trouble really didn't have much to celebrate.
It is all a matter of perspective.
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"I think they're very dangerous and destructive. I don't think that anyone should think for you. And that's exactly what cults do. All cults, including Scientology, say, 'I am your mind, I am your brain. I've done all the work for you, I've laid the path open for you. All you have to do is turn your mind off and walk down the path I have created.'" - L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., 1983 Penthouse interview
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Maggie, Ft.L., Seth,
Thanks for the perspective.
And Maggie, I'm glad to know the girls,whoever they were, had fun.
Can I tell you guys though, it was really different on the other side. Do you all recall what Greg is referring to?
And even as weird and sad and disconcerting as my experience was, I don't think I would trade it for any of the happy ones you guys had. Personally, I think the price paid was way too high. No offense intended so please don't take it, okay?
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Nope...
No one ever told me who to date. I asked my wife to marry me no else had anything to do with it...
Sorry Greg there is alot more to it than you know.
I was never really a favorite. In fact more times probably not the favorite.
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I was somewhat rotund, and that wasn't PbJs. We ate pretty well at night (2 fridges, both full)
I also recall getting zapped up on the top of a light pole, (another "fuck yea" moment as in "is it off?")
I always had a ball fixing stuff around there. sometimes I think it is a wonder we didn't kill ourselves. I got chased around the roof by a pissed off bunch of bees after we tried to smoke them out of the wall.
Thoise were definitely some good times!
G
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I can say that in some ways, I agree with Maggie - there were times when I felt like I was living a 'normal' life and that we were having fun without feeling the pressure to 'be cool' - and that was great. But, on the other hand, there were people who had a certain amount of freedom that I and others didn't share, so there were people who could work on projects and use front-end loaders (I remember that day - I spent hours digging a drainage ditch) and stuff. Usually I got stuck with manual labor-type jobs, or being in a rap, but I didn't really have a choice and that's the problem with it for me. So - I learned how to have some fun without drinking or being cool, which was great - but I did feel that my life was really, really REALLY constricted, especially the longer I was there. I am sure I had my own freedoms, but I was envious of people who worked at better jobs than mine, or who were allowed to have more freedom, or were favored with more attention. Stripe's posts seem to reflect someone early in the program, Seth's and FL's are from the standpoint of long-term guys. For whatever reason, we each havce our own perspectives.
I think part of the problem I had is that I really thought I was supposed to be humble, and that meant the I didn't aspire to much when I was at the Seed. I thought that was being grateful for whatever came my way, and not pushing for recognition or privileges.
As far as dating goes, it simply didn't exist when I was at the Seed. I remember Cindy and John were allowed to date, but he was a staff member so he had contact with the girls that I did not. I rarely ever even had a conversation with anyone but a female staff member. My contact with the opp. sex was limited to saying 'hi' (maybe) or 'nice catch' on the football field. Literally. So, I'm not even sure how FL got far along enough to get married! I wouldn't have had the option, not during my time.
I didn't go to La Dome or the movies (I remember seeing exactly one movie - Alien) and I took one trip to the Keys, which was kind of unsanctioned and never repeated. I remember going out to dinner once in my seven-year stint with a couple of seed friends - the rest were always with family when they made once-a-year visit.
I think I kind of took pride in my austere life style, but it also kind of sucked, too. My life was work, group, home - work, group, home - work, group, home - football/baseball on the weekends, then back to work, group, home. Fishing? I did it three times in seven years. Hiking? Never. Making non-Seed friends? Never. Having a stimulating, open conversation where I disagreed with a staff member or someone with more senior status than me? Never! Taking a class, going to a lecture, museum or concert? Never. Reading a good book? Not approved of. Listening to any music besides jazz, big band and 1950s pop? No.
I have some good memories and some good times were had, but lots of days were just kind of gray for me...kind of lonely, since I wasn't free to be my true self. Whenever I did start to have fun, staff would disallow the activity or move me to another apartment. Really, that's what I remember more than anything, was my lack of freedom. More than any fun I had.
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My God. Will you get over the bathroom list. As far as I can remember it just gave the young kids something to do and also just kept you thinking Ok I better not cop out by going to the bathroom too many times. There were alot of kids and not alot of bathrooms. (At one time the list may have even been taken to determine if more toilets needed to be added on) That stopped when the group got smaller. That was the only reason bathroom usage was delayed.
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No. Sometimes I asked to go and was ignored for a while, to demonstrate power. I clearly remember this when I was a newcomer.
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All these things we did were after I had graduated and I was over 18. I am sure some people felt differently and had a rough time of it. Before that time, I was concentrating on getting better. After I graduated, I was relieved to finally have the freedom (not care what other people thought) to be and do what I wanted to. I would have invited you along if I knew you. By the way, I was no one's favorite--I just wanted to get along with people and make the best out of my life. Remember I ask to go in which was different than some of you that were put there by your caring parents.
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If you were a girl, I wouldn't have been allowed to tag along. I would have to have advanced approveal from staff, and I am sure they would have strongly discouraged me from doing it. I never hung out with anyone exept for another Seed kid from home or work, unless I was assigned to do something with someone else by staff. In my experience, it was pretty rigid.
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Stipe no offence taken at all man. I think its great for all of us to say what we think, regardless if we are in agreement or not.
And honestly I didnt really percieve things quite the way that Greg had pointed out, and was not even aware that there was "another side".
I guess it is just the way of the world that people can have differnt views and feelings about the same thing.
Gotta say tho that I am very touched by the message in a differnt thread that Greg is raising his daughter to have drug free values.
Is she getting any type of music or dance lessons? Jesus I wish my parents had done that for me. I could have been the next Elton John.
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Seth you definitely had the hair for it. Me too, these days!
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Hey Wally
You had the glasses for it too. (Black horned rims anyway)
I'm there in the hair dept myself.
Now if I could only sing and play the piano...
maybe next life... :grin:
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On 2006-05-03 04:33:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Nope...
No one ever told me who to date. I asked my wife to marry me no else had anything to do with it...
Sorry Greg there is alot more to it than you know.
I was never really a favorite. In fact more times probably not the favorite."
But somehow you seem to have flown in under the radar. Anytime you want to tell us more, we are listening.
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On 2006-05-03 07:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My God. Will you get over the bathroom list. As far as I can remember it just gave the young kids something to do and also just kept you thinking Ok I better not cop out by going to the bathroom too many times. There were alot of kids and not alot of bathrooms. (At one time the list may have even been taken to determine if more toilets needed to be added on) That stopped when the group got smaller. That was the only reason bathroom usage was delayed."
Cleveland wrote:
No. Sometimes I asked to go and was ignored for a while, to demonstrate power. I clearly remember this when I was a newcomer.
Oh this is definitely the case. In fact, I remember the term "you can just sit there in your shit" to some people who were denied all but the most rudimentary bathroom privelides. I also remember as a newcomer that when you were being a 'good' seedling, if you asked Jr. Staff to go, they would let you. When you weren't doing as they wished, they would nod their head to and fro when you asked. In fact, they would make you ask three or four times before they allowed it. I remember more than one kid wetting himself and then being stood up and ridiculed. Who knows how many went in their pants?
This practice kept morphing into a more and more serious technique in the spinoff programs. Last heard, the seedlings at SAFE (safelings) have a day taken off their program if they ask to go to the bathroom during 'rap'.
Back to this. I am beginning to think that many of the staffers just didn't understand what the hell they were doing. Denial of bathroom priviledges is a severe torture/humiliation technique. Somehow all those kids squirming to hold urine or feces in/afraid to be confronted/trying to show enthusiasm thru the fear/afraid of losing priviledges at any moment...this doesn't ring a bell as somehow 'not right' to many of the people, even these many years later.
Just so you know, denial of bathroom privelidges is considered torture and denounced by the Geneva convention, as is denial of mail, isolation, denial of sleep, and many of the other 'techniques' used at the seed.
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What do you mean I had the hair for it?
OMG OMG WHAT HAIR!!>?>? yikes.
Yea im bald as a melon.
For a while there I experimented. I tried growing it long with a beard for a while until someone at work told me that I should consider pushing a shopping card and collecting tin cans.
Then I went through a phase of shaving it all totally off.
Now I have reached a middle ground and just give myself a near/bald buzz cut at home with a paur of clippers and settle for that.
I save a fortune in combs and brushes this way!
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Seth, I do the same thing...it's kind of hip to be near-bald now...beats a comb-over!
As far as bathroom priveleges go, it never reached the level for me that Greg notes...just a delay so you know who's boss.
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Does anyone besides me see that striking difference between the female and male experience when it comes to off time and "fun"?
Absolutely, I never had a friend in the seed. There were girls I felt more anxious around and girls I was able to relax with a bit more but "good times" always seemed like imitations of good times and I felt we were always watching each other. I went on outings during my three nights, and acted all goofy on over nights but I was always on guard
In my experience this didn't just mean we ratted on each other but that we threatened to do so all the time.
Example, once another seedling girl asked about some kid she saw me speaking to at school concluding with,? I just find I have to be careful." A few minutes later I questioned her choice of clothing saying, "Don't you worry about wearing pants that are cut like jeans? (Druggyish) She tried to squeeze away from my threat by saying,? I think there ok. Their not denim," to which, I said,? I just find I have to be careful about what I wear."
Off time felt more like lunchtime in the group--no rap but you can still get in serious trouble if you say or do something wrong.
One sad exception, I almost had one friend. A girl I started doing stuff with when we were both on our three nights. I do remember some fun with her though I can't remember exactly what, just that I liked spending time with her. Finally one of our outing requests was rejected which scared the shit out of both of us. We ratted on each other--don't remember for what and never hung out again.
It seems to me that the women who say they remember good times were generally older when they were in the program. It was always my experience that old seedlings seemed more relaxed. Perhaps they were less terrorized by the esp. shit. If you don?t believe that the people around you can read your mind and that you should be able to read theirs the threat is more limited.
Incidentally all of my closest friends after I graduated were seed grads too, but they were all guys. It took a long while (like into adulthood) for me to learn to trust women.
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Cleveland chick 76-77
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HAHAH most men in the right mind STILL dont trust women!
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Is that a joke? I hope so.
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Dr Rick - i was the anonymous poster - not intentionally, just didnt realize i wasnt logged in - i asked because there was a grad of the program who went thorugh it in florida but was from ohio i think - he was a school psychologist and we still saw him occasionally a few yrs after the seed closed - thought you might be him so wanted to give you a shout to see if you remembered me or not.
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That psychologist, his enthusiasm for the program
probably got more kids in there than anything else. I remember being told they used him to make sure they were not admitting truelly mentally ill kids, never any sense that he might be evaluating kids in order to see if they needed to be in the seed at all.
I was admitted without seeing him.
Still it was the enthusiasm of experts that convinced my parents to put me in. The junior high principal, my parents marriage counselor both recommended it.
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I remember I was evaluated for admission by a member of the faculty at Case - Cleveland's most prestigious school. And Jim Carney, a prominent Cleveland attorney, was a frequent visitor to the Cleveland Seed.
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I remember putting up those lights
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Jefnel was your dad a Dr. in naples or ft myers?
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Jefnel,
Did my head crack the windshield on your truck during an off road episode?
G
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Yea John that's me. This is stupid but I have a 10mm socket with J.G. engraved on it. Whenever I use use it I wonder what happened to J.G. Some how it got in my tool box and has been there for 20 some years.
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I left a shorty ratchet behind, too - wonder who got that.
G
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I really don't remember having any SEED sanctioned fun, but I was a girl. I used to be jealous because it seemed always guys being able to get out of rap sessions to do maintenance, watching the gate and doing that ridiculous cracked marble floor in his office (anyone remember when they got all that broken marble). I think it can be attributed to Art's attitude on women.
The only thing I remember was working the intake desk a few times and being a runner for the phone. I do remember thinking, that as boring as it was, (we weren't allowed to even talk to each other when we were doing those tasks), it was a whole lot better that being in group.
I do remember one Saturday we skipped the SEED and spent the day out in the woods by the Corbit area. Said we had car trouble, my brother, Greg G.(from Jupiter) A guy
that lived they and myself. I was called into Libby's office and blasted, but at least I didn't get stood up in group like the guys did. I remember listening to everyone tell the guys off and about ready to have a heart attack, thinking I was next.
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I set that BROKEN marble floor along with Hank Madsen before he became staff. It had nothing to do with art or his attitude towards women. My dad donated a lot to the seed and did the marble floor upstars in the confedrence room. This was done out of appreciation for getting us help.
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Ricci I remember the tile floor, and helping you and your dad install it. You guys really knew what you were doing with that marble business.
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Hi Seth, My dad did the upstairs. I will still on my program. I did J.U.'s office downstairs with Hank Madsen on a couple of other guys after I got off of my program. Do you remember living with me ,Hank, bruce ? and a Black guy named Mike ?
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Bryant
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Yes Ricci I remember living with you guys. Also remember renting those cottages from the Madsens and doing oil change at 4am to go to disneyworld. That was back when everyone was boxing too,
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I do remember one Saturday we skipped the SEED and spent the day out in the woods by the Corbit area. Said we had car trouble, my brother, Greg G.(from Jupiter)
Wow you actually, blew off a day consciosly knowing that you were playing hooky? You are my hero. I would never have done that, to afraid they would read my mind. During my three nights, when I took days off i always had some elaborate explaination I told MYSELF as to why I had to stay home that day. I was always trying to squash my awareness that I actually hated raps. If I thought it-- staff might sense it and then god help me then.
In Cleveland guys and chicks were not allowed to ride in the same car.
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I think the Omen (original movie) must have come out when I was in Cleveland. I remember looking out on the playground one day and seeing a big ass black dog sitting in the yard and being freaked out. That place seemed dark and haunted. It's funny when they do remakes of movies I remember coming out the first time--it seems just like yesterday, but it was in 1976.
As far as reading peoples minds, I don't think any of the Staff had that ability. But, remember the old saying, you can't con a con!
HAHAHA!!!!
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Are you sure that wasn't Lybbi wearing black???
:grin:
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What do you mean about Lybbi wearing black? Is that a reference to the big black dog sitting in the yard that freaked "Anonymous" out?
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yes, maybe it was Lybbi in black and not a dog at all...same temperment!
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... i asked because there was a grad of the program who went thorugh it in florida but was from ohio i think - he was a school psychologist and we still saw him occasionally a few yrs after the seed closed - thought you might be him so wanted to give you a shout to see if you remembered me or not.
I was that psychologist. There was a psychiatrist(MD) that someone referred to who did a medical intake in Florida. I went to Ohio to go to college and to be near family a while after the Seed went to Cleveland. I missed the seasons after living in Ft. lauderdale for 3 years. I'l never miss the seasons again after living in the snowbelt east of Cleveland.
Loved it down in FLA after getting off of my 10 to 10 after 6 months. After getting off the program had a blast diving and fishing in the keys, beach parties at Birch State Park, movies, tennis, bowling, hanging with the guys at the apartments.