Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Ridge Creek School / Hidden Lake Academy => Topic started by: Troll Control on May 19, 2009, 03:26:43 PM
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"Anti-HLA" Group - 276 members
"Neutral" Group - 164 members
It says a lot. These are interesting groups with lots of wall posts and discussions. Good read.
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I have a child at HLA right now and I wish I would have seen this information a long time ago. My child graduates soon and can't wait. This guy is a fraud!!!
Just to let you know, HLA has cut therapeutic staff considerably, property is up for sale on June 2nd (nearly 200 acres) and the walls are coming down!
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You wouldnt by any chance have the email Len sent out to all the parents would you? We're all interested to see how he's spinning this.
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I have a child at HLA right now and I wish I would have seen this information a long time ago. My child graduates soon and can't wait. This guy is a fraud!!!
Just to let you know, HLA has cut therapeutic staff considerably, property is up for sale on June 2nd (nearly 200 acres) and the walls are coming down!
Dear MADMOM,
I would be curious to find out how you found Fornits and as RobertBruce, I would also be interested to know how you found out about the bankruptcy...which is under another topic in this thread.
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From one of "my kids" who was at HLA fifteen years ago:
"I'm doing well. Like most of the others, I left HLA much worse for the wear. I got into drugs really soon after, and ended up strung out on heroin and homeless within a year of leaving. Then, I woke up one day and got my shit together. Got clean and went back to school. I was working in real estate in (REDACTED) for awhile, and decided I didn't want to work in an office anymore, so I got a teaching certification in ESL and now I get paid to travel around the world making ridiculous money (by local standards, anyway) and work 20 hours a week.
I'm in (REDACTED) now, which I love. Trying to get a job at a university which will allow me to get my masters paid for. Cross your fingers for me!
I just wanna say thank you for doing what you did. Not only getting the place shut down, which will save soooo many kids from having to live through that shit, but for being one of the good counselors there. I don't know if you guys realize how much those of you that treated us like human beings and not total fuck ups helped us make it out with at least some semblance of sanity left. So, cheers."
And we're supposed to believe these "bad" kids were "helped" by HLA?
I'm still sad, angry and confused about how this place was allowed to ruin so many lives. But each one of "my kids" who leads a happy, successful life in spite of HLA fills a small hole in my life.
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Sure do.
May 15, 2009
Dear Parents and Consultants:
As you know, Hidden Lake Academy (“HLA”) began operating in 1994. HLA provides a unique approach to working with adolescents experiencing serious struggles with emotional and behavioral issues. HLA continually strives to provide its students with a superior academic, counseling, and therapeutic environment. During the last three years, HLA faced a severe legal attack on its ability to continue its mission. The litigation alleged various contractual related claims. As a result of this litigation, HLA incurred substantial legal fees that were not covered by insurance. During the litigation, student enrollment declined because HLA’s referral base was faced with voluminous discovery requests. This caused the referral base to incur legal fees and reduced their willingness to refer students to HLA. During this difficult time, HLA always maintained its unique educational, counseling, and therapeutic services. The good news is the parties reached an agreement resolving the litigation. Additionally, HLA has reestablished itself with its referral base, which is once again, solidly supportive of HLA and its educational mission. HLA continues to work through challenging financial situations caused by both the financial burden of litigation, and the overall downturn in the economy. At this time, HLA has worked diligently to resolve many of the financial burdens that resulted from the litigation. However, HLA has been unable to resolve issues with one of its lenders. HLA elected to take a proactive approach to resolve its issues by filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection to reorganize its affairs. Chapter 11 is a business reorganization process. HLA will continue to operate both during and after the reorganization process. HLA will continue to provide the highest quality educational, clinical, and therapeutic services on an uninterrupted basis to its students. HLA is engaging in ongoing negations with potential lenders and is confident in its ability to address its financial issue. I know that each of you remains concerned about your child’s education and well-being. Let me take this opportunity to reassure each and every parent that everyone at HLA remains fully committed to continuing to provide the same superior academic, counseling and therapeutic services to its students it has since 1994. Our commitment is and will remain steadfast. I would like to personally thank each of you for your continued support during this challenging time. I am sure that this process will go smoothly and that your child will continue to thrive and excel at HLA. Sincerely, Len Buccellato, Ph.D.
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This man is a piece of work. He is totally insane. We have spoken with several educational consultants, who have spoken to other educational consultants and so on, and this man is nuts.
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Is Buccellato delusional??
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HLA is engaging in ongoing negations with potential lenders and is confident in its ability to address its financial issue.
Transcription error? ...Or Freudian slip, on the part of Buccellato?
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This man is a piece of work. He is totally insane. We have spoken with several educational consultants, who have spoken to other educational consultants and so on, and this man is nuts.
He is not only nuts, he is desperate and dilusional; and most of the ed cons are beginning to finally admit it. There are still some die-hards, like Nancy Cadwallader and Martha Kolbe, to mention a few, who will support him to the end. But the end, ladies, is near. Nancy and her 110 year old mom continue to send kids there out of stupidity, and the nice kickbacks they used to get when Bucchi was flush. What's your excuse, Martha?
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At this time, HLA has worked diligently to resolve many of the financial burdens that resulted from the litigation.
Well, since 2005, I have worked diligently to nail your sorry ass to the wall...and it is far from over...
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From one of "my kids" who was at HLA fifteen years ago:
"I'm doing well. Like most of the others, I left HLA much worse for the wear. I got into drugs really soon after, and ended up strung out on heroin and homeless within a year of leaving. Then, I woke up one day and got my shit together. Got clean and went back to school. I was working in real estate in (REDACTED) for awhile, and decided I didn't want to work in an office anymore, so I got a teaching certification in ESL and now I get paid to travel around the world making ridiculous money (by local standards, anyway) and work 20 hours a week.
I'm in (REDACTED) now, which I love. Trying to get a job at a university which will allow me to get my masters paid for. Cross your fingers for me!
I just wanna say thank you for doing what you did. Not only getting the place shut down, which will save soooo many kids from having to live through that shit, but for being one of the good counselors there. I don't know if you guys realize how much those of you that treated us like human beings and not total fuck ups helped us make it out with at least some semblance of sanity left. So, cheers."
And we're supposed to believe these "bad" kids were "helped" by HLA?
I'm still sad, angry and confused about how this place was allowed to ruin so many lives. But each one of "my kids" who leads a happy, successful life in spite of HLA fills a small hole in my life.
Almost missed this. HLA would be glad to get that feedback, also, I would bet. I know the kids think they have succeeded in spite of the place and that’s okay. The important thing is they are doing well. Its not easy getting thru those years and even harder going thru the program. But in the long run it pays off as is evident when we get feed back like in the above letter.
Thanks for sharing that.
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From one of "my kids" who was at HLA fifteen years ago:
"I'm doing well. Like most of the others, I left HLA much worse for the wear. I got into drugs really soon after, and ended up strung out on heroin and homeless within a year of leaving. Then, I woke up one day and got my shit together. Got clean and went back to school. I was working in real estate in (REDACTED) for awhile, and decided I didn't want to work in an office anymore, so I got a teaching certification in ESL and now I get paid to travel around the world making ridiculous money (by local standards, anyway) and work 20 hours a week.
I'm in (REDACTED) now, which I love. Trying to get a job at a university which will allow me to get my masters paid for. Cross your fingers for me!
I just wanna say thank you for doing what you did. Not only getting the place shut down, which will save soooo many kids from having to live through that shit, but for being one of the good counselors there. I don't know if you guys realize how much those of you that treated us like human beings and not total fuck ups helped us make it out with at least some semblance of sanity left. So, cheers."
And we're supposed to believe these "bad" kids were "helped" by HLA?
I'm still sad, angry and confused about how this place was allowed to ruin so many lives. But each one of "my kids" who leads a happy, successful life in spite of HLA fills a small hole in my life.
Almost missed this. HLA would be glad to get that feedback, also, I would bet. I know the kids think they have succeeded in spite of the place and that’s okay. The important thing is they are doing well. Its not easy getting thru those years and even harder going thru the program. But in the long run it pays off as is evident when we get feed back like in the above letter.
Thanks for sharing that.
Why would HLA be glad to get feedback of a kid falling on her face and becoming a heroin addict after the program when she never touched drugs in her life before that? What she said is that the program hurt her very deeply, but in time she overcame the damage done to her by Bentz, et al, but that her only glimpse of hope was the one staff member who was different - kind, supportive and caring. You've misread this woman's narrative.
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Yes, that's true. She has told me that "the program" ruined her life for many years, strained and broke her family relationships and led her into very severe drug addiction. I don't think that's the kind of press HLA is looking for (call me crazy). But, to be fair, there were a couple of other good staff too, but they got sqeezed out by the hacks from CEDU, like Rudy, Jill, Dean, Lauralyn, the phony "Dr. Sisk" and Len himself. I am really proud of this woman, though, and have a lot of respect for her, too. Plus she happens to be really cool and that doesn't hurt!
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...or maybe all the above posts are just a bunch of made up BS. It's a shame that people take unverified dicussion post banter as gospel. "15 years ago" someone was screwed up by HLA. Gimme a break! I don't think the school is even that old.
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A former/current satisfied/unsatisfied student/parent told me:
"It was the best thing that ever happened to me and...." or
"They tortured me in a sweatbox and made be eat dirt and....." or
"It was wonderful! I had a blast and......" or
"My child excelled and...." or
"My child suffered and..." or
I just made all this BS up. I'll just keep posting under different aliases to make it look real. What nonsense! Want to know about HLA today? Just drop in unannounced any day and judge for yourself. Don't rely on any discussion group posts, pro or con. Especially don't rely on discussion group posts that reference other unverified posts. You'll quickly realize this board is a bunch of crap!
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Why would HLA be glad to get feedback of a kid falling on her face and becoming a heroin addict after the program when she never touched drugs in her life before that? What she said is that the program hurt her very deeply, but in time she overcame the damage done to her by Bentz, et al, but that her only glimpse of hope was the one staff member who was different - kind, supportive and caring. You've misread this woman's narrative.
Many kids and adults fall on their face. What if this girl had entered into heroin addiction prior to entering HLA? How many people become heroin addicts and then just decide one morning to clean up and get a job and then actually be able to do it? Very few. It is typically a long and arduous journey, But this person had the advantage of the tools that she learned from HLA and knew she had a choice in life and could choose a better life for herself. Non program kids do not have this strength or the skills to wake up and feel they have this choice.
I do see what you mean it sounds like the program did hurt her very deeply, but considering what she had to overcome after she left I believe she was very fortunate to be prepared for the challenges ahead.
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I do see what you mean it sounds like the program did hurt her very deeply, but considering what she had to overcome after she left I believe she was very fortunate to be prepared for the challenges ahead.
Now you’re trying to make a case for preemptive programming?
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I do see what you mean it sounds like the program did hurt her very deeply, but considering what she had to overcome after she left I believe she was very fortunate to be prepared for the challenges ahead.
Now you’re trying to make a case for preemptive programming?
It's just "The Who" trolling. Obviously, he wants every single child to be programmed so they can overcome challenges in their lives induced by the programming. In "The Who's" world the program can be the cause of, and solution to, all people's problems.
Just as an aside, HLA doesn't teach anyone any "tools," they just psychologically, physically and emotionally batter children.
Let me ask you, Who, what about the girl that was forcibly sodomized with a 14" tree limb at HLA? Do you think that she's better off because she may have been tree-limb-sodomized at home and wouldn't have the "tools" to cope? You're a fucking asshole, Who. Fucking jerk.
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Believe it or not the above poster (Dysfunction Junction) claims to be a mental health professional himself. If this is true imagine how many patients walk out the door after hearing his thrashing and foul language everytime you question his opinion or hold a different point of view. He has very little tolerance for debate or open minded discussions. I wouldnt let this guy near my kid let alone allow him to be in a room alone with him/her giving advice to them.
This is why it is always important (along with credentials) to listen to your gut feel about people especially where your children are concerned.
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^^TheWho^^
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
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Believe it or not the above poster (Dysfunction Junction) claims to be a mental health professional himself. If this is true imagine how many patients walk out the door after hearing his thrashing and foul language everytime you question his opinion or hold a different point of view. He has very little tolerance for debate or open minded discussions. I wouldnt let this guy near my kid let alone allow him to be in a room alone with him/her giving advice to them.
This is why it is always important (along with credentials) to listen to your gut feel about people especially where your children are concerned.
Nah, I'm retired from that business. My new endeavor is to point out dangerous child-rape fantasizers like you, TheWho. You are a very sick quasi-human being, sir.
What did your "gut" tell you before your son killed himself I wonder?
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Why is it all of the sudden some character flaw to call an asshole an asshole? Only marketing people view truth-telling as a character flaw. The Who is an asshole and he was referred to as an asshole. I see nothing damning about that, regardless of the utterer's profession. In fact, it's refreshing to see The Who's marketing-speak countered with frankness.
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Believe it or not the above poster (Dysfunction Junction) claims to be a mental health professional himself. If this is true imagine how many patients walk out the door after hearing his thrashing and foul language everytime you question his opinion or hold a different point of view. He has very little tolerance for debate or open minded discussions. I wouldnt let this guy near my kid let alone allow him to be in a room alone with him/her giving advice to them.
This is why it is always important (along with credentials) to listen to your gut feel about people especially where your children are concerned.
Nah, I'm retired from that business.
I dont think many of us are suprised.
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
Interesting question. Let me take a stab:
I think if the girl was raped after graduation and was able to overcome this obstacle and move on with her life because of strengths she had developed during her stay at HLA then she would be much better off then if she were raped and never had the advantage of HLA.
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
Interesting question. Let me take a stab:
I think if the girl was raped after graduation and was able to overcome this obstacle and move on with her life because of strengths she had developed during her stay at HLA then she would be much better off then if she were raped and never had the advantage of HLA.
But she was raped at HLA, not before or after. So, was it a good thing for her to be raped in a "safe environment" where she could use the "program tools" to cope with it? Or would it have been better that she never went and was never raped?
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
Interesting question. Let me take a stab:
I think if the girl was raped after graduation and was able to overcome this obstacle and move on with her life because of strengths she had developed during her stay at HLA then she would be much better off then if she were raped and never had the advantage of HLA.
But she was raped at HLA, not before or after. So, was it a good thing for her to be raped in a "safe environment" where she could use the "program tools" to cope with it? Or would it have been better that she never went and was never raped?
Very strange question. First of all it is never a good thing to be raped. No one can forsee what is going to happen. If a girl gets raped in her dorm at Harvard do you think she wishes she had attended Yale instead? Would she have been better off? Maybe maybe not, but would it mean that Harvard is any less safe or more abusive? I dont see how that could be concluded by that single event.
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
Interesting question. Let me take a stab:
I think if the girl was raped after graduation and was able to overcome this obstacle and move on with her life because of strengths she had developed during her stay at HLA then she would be much better off then if she were raped and never had the advantage of HLA.
But she was raped at HLA, not before or after. So, was it a good thing for her to be raped in a "safe environment" where she could use the "program tools" to cope with it? Or would it have been better that she never went and was never raped?
Very strange question. First of all it is never a good thing to be raped. No one can forsee what is going to happen. If a girl gets raped in her dorm at Harvard do you think she wishes she had attended Yale instead? Would she have been better off? Maybe maybe not, but would it mean that Harvard is any less safe or more abusive? I dont see how that could be concluded by that single event.
But this girl was raped by a court-ordered prior sex offender at HLA (see Clarke Poole's emails describing this event). Don't you think it's forseeable that someone will get raped when you mix in court-ordered sexual predators with more-or-less normal kids? It seems to me that if you mix sexual offenders with regular kids you will have a problem. Why do you think HLA didn't see any possible problems from putting a court-ordered sex offender into their program. Common sense seems to say that this would happen. Are they dumb or just ignorant?
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But this girl was raped by a court-ordered prior sex offender at HLA (see Clarke Poole's emails describing this event). Don't you think it's forseeable that someone will get raped when you mix in court-ordered sexual predators with more-or-less normal kids? It seems to me that if you mix sexual offenders with regular kids you will have a problem. Why do you think HLA didn't see any possible problems from putting a court-ordered sex offender into their program. Common sense seems to say that this would happen. Are they dumb or just ignorant?
All that is very interesting but I dont see how that relates to a girl overcoming a heroin addiction. I feel the girl was better off attending HLA because she was easily able to overcome this addiction and move on with her life, whether or not she felt HLA added value or not, she exceeded what the average person would have been able to do if they had not had the advantage of tools learned within the program.
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Why is it all of the sudden some character flaw to call an asshole an asshole? Only marketing people view truth-telling as a character flaw. The Who is an asshole and he was referred to as an asshole. I see nothing damning about that, regardless of the utterer's profession. In fact, it's refreshing to see The Who's marketing-speak countered with frankness.
:tup:
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But this girl was raped by a court-ordered prior sex offender at HLA (see Clarke Poole's emails describing this event). Don't you think it's forseeable that someone will get raped when you mix in court-ordered sexual predators with more-or-less normal kids? It seems to me that if you mix sexual offenders with regular kids you will have a problem. Why do you think HLA didn't see any possible problems from putting a court-ordered sex offender into their program. Common sense seems to say that this would happen. Are they dumb or just ignorant?
All that is very interesting but I dont see how that relates to a girl overcoming a heroin addiction. I feel the girl was better off attending HLA because she was easily able to overcome this addiction and move on with her life, whether or not she felt HLA added value or not, she exceeded what the average person would have been able to do if they had not had the advantage of tools learned within the program.
What bullshit. 95% of those who overcome addictions do so on their own, not because they served time in a teen mindfuck facility.
Now, go back to fantasizing about having sex with dead animals.
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Like a bunch of other crap on this board. It's just hearsay that this event ever happened. No police or incident report can be located anywhere. What if Clarke Poole is lying? Does one person's e-mail make it the truth? Oh, I know, it's an HLA conspiracy/coverup! or they paid someone off! or Bucelleto gave them hush money! or a bunch of other BS concerning an event that never happened.
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Sorry, it did happen. And it was brought up in the lawsuit. HLA did not deny these facts. Read the court papers. It is a fact that while at HLA several children were sexually abused by their peers and a couple by staff. There are hospital records that show this young lady's genitals and internal pelvic area were so badly damaged by this forcible rape with a tree branch that the doctor could not even do a full pelvic exam. Her parents also verify the event.
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
Interesting question. Let me take a stab:
I think if the girl was raped after graduation and was able to overcome this obstacle and move on with her life because of strengths she had developed during her stay at HLA then she would be much better off then if she were raped and never had the advantage of HLA.
Hi. What program tools do they give at HLA to help rape victims? What advantage does a raped child have from going to HLA? How does HLA prepare children for being raped? What does HLA do with children who get raped while they are at HLA? I know some girls who were raped and they probably should be sent to HLA to learn how to overcome it, shouldn't they? Do they have a rape recovery program there?
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I did not find this event anywhere in the court papers. I did not find any recognition of other abuse, either. Please enlighten us with the doc/page number of the accusation in the court documents. If you find anything, which I doubt, then be sure to give the counter, also. Otherwise, you're biased and not a reliable source for objectivity. Also, how are you privy to someone's private medical records? Hearsay is worthless. Even I can make up hearsay. Like a lot of this website, I think you're full of it and made it up or else you believe everything everyone tells you, which makes you very gullible to lies.
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Why is it all of the sudden some character flaw to call an asshole an asshole? Only marketing people view truth-telling as a character flaw. The Who is an asshole and he was referred to as an asshole. I see nothing damning about that, regardless of the utterer's profession. In fact, it's refreshing to see The Who's marketing-speak countered with frankness.
Last poster is also an a-hole.
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But this girl was raped by a court-ordered prior sex offender at HLA (see Clarke Poole's emails describing this event). Don't you think it's forseeable that someone will get raped when you mix in court-ordered sexual predators with more-or-less normal kids? It seems to me that if you mix sexual offenders with regular kids you will have a problem. Why do you think HLA didn't see any possible problems from putting a court-ordered sex offender into their program. Common sense seems to say that this would happen. Are they dumb or just ignorant?
All that is very interesting but I dont see how that relates to a girl overcoming a heroin addiction. I feel the girl was better off attending HLA because she was easily able to overcome this addiction and move on with her life, whether or not she felt HLA added value or not, she exceeded what the average person would have been able to do if they had not had the advantage of tools learned within the program.
I understand your point. I am not sure if her time at HLA had anything to do with her recovery or not, its hard to say. But wanted to say that the others here are trying to change the subject to rape or something else so that they dont have to discuss it. Its a tactic used over and over to avoid healthy discussions where they cannot control the outcome.
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But this girl was raped by a court-ordered prior sex offender at HLA (see Clarke Poole's emails describing this event). Don't you think it's forseeable that someone will get raped when you mix in court-ordered sexual predators with more-or-less normal kids? It seems to me that if you mix sexual offenders with regular kids you will have a problem. Why do you think HLA didn't see any possible problems from putting a court-ordered sex offender into their program. Common sense seems to say that this would happen. Are they dumb or just ignorant?
All that is very interesting but I dont see how that relates to a girl overcoming a heroin addiction. I feel the girl was better off attending HLA because she was easily able to overcome this addiction and move on with her life, whether or not she felt HLA added value or not, she exceeded what the average person would have been able to do if they had not had the advantage of tools learned within the program.
I understand your point. I am not sure if her time at HLA had anything to do with her recovery or not, its hard to say. But wanted to say that the others here are trying to change the subject to rape or something else so that they dont have to discuss it. Its a tactic used over and over to avoid healthy discussions where they cannot control the outcome.
I find it ironic that you complain about changing topics, because this is the topic you truly want to change but you cant (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&p=335546#p335546). What's even more inescapable is that your posts in all of these other threads you've been trolling will also be linked to your account, "JoanneB", a.k.a. "TheWho." Oh, this is going to be on eof the best things that ever happened to everyone, except you, "JoanneB." :rofl:
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
Interesting question. Let me take a stab:
I think if the girl was raped after graduation and was able to overcome this obstacle and move on with her life because of strengths she had developed during her stay at HLA then she would be much better off then if she were raped and never had the advantage of HLA.
Hi. What program tools do they give at HLA to help rape victims? What advantage does a raped child have from going to HLA? How does HLA prepare children for being raped? What does HLA do with children who get raped while they are at HLA? I know some girls who were raped and they probably should be sent to HLA to learn how to overcome it, shouldn't they? Do they have a rape recovery program there?
Being a victim of rape and also a former HLA student I feel compelled to answer this. I was raped when I was 13, and sent to HLA when I was 15. I have PTSD, and horrific flashbacks. HLA was completely unprepared to handle a terrified, confused teenage girl suffering with these kinds of issues. Being forced to recount my ordeal time and time again to strangers in the first few months of my program was extremely humiliating and detrimental. Then to be surounded by inappropriate staff the entirety of my stay only solidified the fact that this was NOT a "safe" environment to first address the issues and be honest about what happend, and eventually try to work through those problems. There was no "strengths" that I developed while at HLA that had anything to do with dealing with my rape. Its easy to make frivolous comments in an attempt to support your argument like the one made above. However, the fact of the matter is had I never had the "advantage" (as you so ridiculously put it) of HLA, the healthy progress I made dealing with this event would not have been delayed 2 1/2 years. I would not have been further traumatized by their actions and their outlook on what the appropriate way to deal with the sexual abuse of a young teenager was.
So, sorry. Try to use a different argument to prove your incredibly flawed point of view, because there are certainly those of us that are absolute proof that HLA did nothing but further hinder our progress in this matter.
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
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Well, since you ARE TheWho I can see why you'd try to spin it this way. But HLA further harms abuse victims and offers no "tools" to deal with potential future abuse, as you say. Bottom line is you know nothing about HLA except how much it cost you.
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Well, since you ARE TheWho I can see why you'd try to spin it this way. But HLA further harms abuse victims and offers no "tools" to deal with potential future abuse, as you say. Bottom line is you know nothing about HLA except how much it cost you.
No spin.. re-read the posts. You are putting words in peoples mouths and assuming identities. I think that you are Thewho trying to derail this entire thread.
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you are, by far, the most dishonest poster on fornits. let's just leave it at that.
anyway, lacey, who went to hla, says you are absolutely wrong about how they work with sex abuse victims. i believe her over you. also, if you read the ors reports you linked to hla got gigged for not providing plans for treating sex abuse victims and i believe them over you as well.
very poor showing, who. the facts aren't on your side, as usual, so you just make it up as you go along.
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you are, by far, the most dishonest poster on fornits. let's just leave it at that.
You must be new. Stick around awhile. I provide the facts the best I can. If you see a discrepancy feel free to point it out.
anyway, lacey, who went to hla, says you are absolutely wrong about how they work with sex abuse victims. i believe her over you. also, if you read the ors reports you linked to hla got gigged for not providing plans for treating sex abuse victims and i believe them over you as well.
I have no idea how HLA deals with sex victims. As far as the ORS report I think what you are referring to is this.
R 0852 290-2-5-.08(6)(d)1. Staffing.
..” Based on record review and staff interview, the agency failed to provide documentation of a completed staff orientation in two of four files.”
Now are you being honest?
They couldn’t provide proof in 2 of 4 files. If they left off a student date of birth they would be written up for that too. But it doesn’t mean the child was never born…it just wasn’t documented and the inspectors know this also. I there was no training at all, no documents and no procedure they would probably loose their license. But this wasn’t the case.
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boy, for the one providing the links, you haven't read them very carefully! go back and read again. it has nothing to do with this. they were cited for not having service plans for sex abuse victims. bad job here, who. and dishonest.
did you notice that you just posted a 50% failure rate on that item? not good at all. pulled four files, failed on two. not good at all. and that's just this one item. most of the others are worse.
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boy, for the one providing the links, you haven't read them very carefully! go back and read again. it has nothing to do with this. they were cited for not having service plans for sex abuse victims. bad job here, who. and dishonest.
did you notice that you just posted a 50% failure rate on that item? not good at all. pulled four files, failed on two. not good at all. and that's just this one item. most of the others are worse.
Exactly, they do have service plans (because they were documented in 2 of the 4 files they pulled) as you pointed out. They failed to document them thats all. If they failed to document a childs birth date it wouldnt mean that child was never born. It means it wasnt written down.
If you see something different than what I do then post it out here and include the section number as I did. It would be good to take a closer look at it.
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no.....failed to document doesn't mean they have it and didn't document it. it means it isn't documented, which means it may not exist at all. you need a logic course!
what about the items where they failed to provide staff training? big black eye there. "this is jim. he has a g.e.d. jim will lead therapy group today." fucking wonderful!
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no.....failed to document doesn't mean they have it and didn't document it. it means it isn't documented, which means it may not exist at all. you need a logic course!
Exactly, we agree here. It does show that they have training/documentation in place because other staff have been trained and properly documented. (2 of 4 in one instance and 4 our of six were in compliance in another)
what about the items where they failed to provide staff training? big black eye there. "this is jim. he has a g.e.d. jim will lead therapy group today." fucking wonderful!
I believe this may be the same error or a documentation error. Do you have the section number? Lets take a look at it.
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go look yourself. i'm not doing your busywork. it's not an oversight or mis-documented. hla never filed its correction plan and is operating illegally today.
jim, the g.e.d. counselor, is leading rape groups at hla with no degree or training.
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go look yourself. i'm not doing your busywork. it's not an oversight or mis-documented. hla never filed its correction plan and is operating illegally today.
Ha,Ha,Ha couldnt find it eh? Well, we will have to say they were compliant if it isnt in the ORS report.
jim, the g.e.d. counselor, is leading rape groups at hla with no degree or training.
This is why we need the ORS reports and why HLA calls them when there is a question on documentation practices. You guys get mad and start making things up. I doubt HLA has "Rape groups", geeese everything is so redefined here. Cleaning your room is abuse and now they train staff on how to rape kids?
You are a sick person and your word means nothing, sorry buddy.
So we can conclude that HLA was out of compliant in only 6 areas which didnt effect their license at all.
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no, i didn't look, like i said i wouldn't. you provide evidence to support your conclusions. i'm not doing your leg work.
the facts: hla is not in compliance with the law, as evidenced by their failed inspections. plain and simple.
and only you would be sick enough to make stupid jokes about child rape. for the last time, it's not funny.
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no, i didn't look, like i said i wouldn't.
I know, But I did look and found 6 areas of non compliance out of the entire annual Relicensure inspection by the State of Georgia:
R 0852 290-2-5-.08(6)(d)1. Staffing.
2 of 4 files
R 0907 290-2-5-.09(2)(b) Referral and Admission.
R 1000 290-2-5-.10(1) Assessment and Planning.
4 items
R 1102 290-2-5-.11(3) Discharge and Aftercare.
R 1208 290-2-5-.12(3)(a)1. Health Services.
2 items
R 1831 290-2-5-.18(9)(b) Physical Plant and Safety.
Some were serious and others were items like leaving a box of laundry detergent out in the open. The main thing is that HLA is licensed and is open enough to contact the ORS for advice and oversight as is evident in the ORS reporting.
The state of Georgia didnt find the items serious enough to warrant probation or loss of license. They just need to clean up their documentation and submit a correction plan.
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So where's the correction report? It was due 7 months ago. Hla is failing to comply with the law again. They have no intention of changing their practices so they just ignore the law, thusly breaking it. It's cut and dried. Hla is a scofflaw and should be prosecuted and shut down. Period.
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So where's the correction report? It was due 7 months ago. Hla is failing to comply with the law again. They have no intention of changing their practices so they just ignore the law, thusly breaking it. It's cut and dried. Hla is a scofflaw and should be prosecuted and shut down. Period.
The State of Georgia disagrees with you. They are over 90% in compliance. The 6 items they found were not even enough to place their license on probation. There were no major findings.
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.
I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
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Kick backs what else? This is nothing new and it was acknowledged openly by Buchi in the response to the lawsuit. His response of course being "everybody else does it so why can't I?"
Whooter allow me to educate you a little bit. HLA was on a probationary license. They failed their review and the license is expired. Explain to us how that makes them compliant.
You further highlight your ignorance of all things HLA in your comments about groups and who leads them.
Yes they have rape group reals. It isn't as you stupidly claim, a group where staff rapes children, although we already know that goes on as well, as much as we all know you fantasize about such scenarios. It is rather one of many "topic reals". They occur once a week where kids are taken out of their respective peer groups and placed in specific topic related groups, i.e suicide, eating disorders, drugs, sexual abuse, et cet. They are administered by staff members who have little to no training, are unsupervised, are unlicensed, and generally have no clue what they're doing.
Accept the fact that people like Lacey and I know far more about this place then you ever could. You are out of your league Whootie.
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.
I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
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I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
John shut the fuck up. Really. You aren't a defender of any truth. You ignore it when it's staring you right in the face time and time again. Ask me for examples dipshit, I'd be glad to embarrass you yet again. You are motivated soley by greed. You not would send your kid there, you did. Time will tell if he follows suit on your other kid and kills himself to get away from you. What you call discrepancies is merely your way of spinning the word "voilation". If as you claim fornits has no credibility, then why are we having such an effect? Why have there been so many attempts to silence us? Why have there been so many attempts at lawsuits and threats? And why now is the industry cowtowing and going so far as to invite Antigen to their annual kiddie abusing confrence?
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But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
Really? You denied for years that HLA and ASR were even avoiding licensure. You refused to look at the facts, and then when it came to light that we were telling the truth, you suddenlly became rather quiet on the issue. So tell us all, what truth did you bring to the surface?
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion
What are you basing this on John? What studies have recently emerged showcasing the effectiveness of this industry? Come on John, your pals have had 30+ years. What's the hold up? What life lessons are learned from the program John? What was I taught that my public school peers are so woefully ignorant of. Please enlighten all of us.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
Why? You think because her mind was already raped repeatedly it shouldnt be that big of a deal to have her body raped as well? You're disgusting John, hell exist for people like you.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Then again, explain why we are having such an affect. If you're the one providing facts and we're spewing off misinformation then why are people listening to us while you simply get told to shut the fuck up? Why is licensure being forced on gulag after gulag? Why are so many of these places being sued or shutting down? Why John? Or is the other way around? You've been exposed as a liar on multiple occasions, we've been vindicated time and time again. Face facts Jon, we're telling the truth about how abusives these places you earn your living off of, and you just cant stand the idea of losing your bread and butter.
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.
I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
^^Whooter^^ :guesswho:
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.
I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
So let me get this straight. You think that if I were to get pulled into a back alleyway tomorrow walking home from work, and were raped, that the "harrassment" (YOUR WORDS) I endured at Hidden Lake would better prepare me to "deal with it".
If by your own admission HLA "harrasses" rape victims, then what tools could I have possibly learned from these well equipped "professionals" to handle such an ordeal?
What qualifications do you hold in the treatment of rape victims to make these kinds of statements? What personal experience do you have with the effect of rape on a young person to say that anything I ENDURED (not benefited from) at Hidden Lake Academy would prepare me for my hypotectical future rape?
You're absolutely right. The biggest consistency I see in the forum is the misrepresentation of FACT. However this is not from people like me, or Bruce, or DJ, or any of the other people that you have attempted to rip apart in a desperate and delusional attempt to discredit them and every word they utter. Its from you, and those with the same motives.
The simple fact of the matter is that nothing NEGATIVE has come from the things that we have said here on fornits. What has resulted has been accountability, HLA being lisenced, and an overall airing out of HLA's dirty laundry. You spewing your self proclaimed "truths" do nothing but attempt to obscure and distract from the REAL issues at Hidden Lake.
Who. I know, to the very core of everything I am, what happened at Hidden Lake. I do not need 3000 pages of reports to remind me. You can claim to be a "defender of truth", but I KNOW the truth. I lived it and breathed it for 23 months. And nothing of what you defend is anything that I would ever, EVER align myself with. I feel very sorry for you, Who. Because there are only two options here. Either your blissfully and wholeheartedly ignorant to anything real that has happend at Hidden Lake, and are due a very, very rude awakening. Or... You already know the truth, and are so devoid of any humanity that you would go on protecting these sick, sick individuals. If the latter is indeed the case... Then there truly is nothing left to say.
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So let me get this straight. You think that if I were to get pulled into a back alleyway tomorrow walking home from work, and were raped, that the "harrassment" (YOUR WORDS) I endured at Hidden Lake would better prepare me to "deal with it".
If by your own admission HLA "harrasses" rape victims, then what tools could I have possibly learned from these well equipped "professionals" to handle such an ordeal?
What qualifications do you hold in the treatment of rape victims to make these kinds of statements? What personal experience do you have with the effect of rape on a young person to say that anything I ENDURED (not benefited from) at Hidden Lake Academy would prepare me for my hypotectical future rape?
You're absolutely right. The biggest consistency I see in the forum is the misrepresentation of FACT. However this is not from people like me, or Bruce, or DJ, or any of the other people that you have attempted to rip apart in a desperate and delusional attempt to discredit them and every word they utter. Its from you, and those with the same motives.
The simple fact of the matter is that nothing NEGATIVE has come from the things that we have said here on fornits. What has resulted has been accountability, HLA being lisenced, and an overall airing out of HLA's dirty laundry. You spewing your self proclaimed "truths" do nothing but attempt to obscure and distract from the REAL issues at Hidden Lake.
Who. I know, to the very core of everything I am, what happened at Hidden Lake. I do not need 3000 pages of reports to remind me. You can claim to be a "defender of truth", but I KNOW the truth. I lived it and breathed it for 23 months. And nothing of what you defend is anything that I would ever, EVER align myself with. I feel very sorry for you, Who. Because there are only two options here. Either your blissfully and wholeheartedly ignorant to anything real that has happend at Hidden Lake, and are due a very, very rude awakening. Or... You already know the truth, and are so devoid of any humanity that you would go on protecting these sick, sick individuals. If the latter is indeed the case... Then there truly is nothing left to say.
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :rose: :rose: :rose:
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So let me get this straight. You think that if I were to get pulled into a back alleyway tomorrow walking home from work, and were raped, that the "harrassment" (YOUR WORDS) I endured at Hidden Lake would better prepare me to "deal with it".
If by your own admission HLA "harrasses" rape victims, then what tools could I have possibly learned from these well equipped "professionals" to handle such an ordeal?
What qualifications do you hold in the treatment of rape victims to make these kinds of statements? What personal experience do you have with the effect of rape on a young person to say that anything I ENDURED (not benefited from) at Hidden Lake Academy would prepare me for my hypotectical future rape?
You're absolutely right. The biggest consistency I see in the forum is the misrepresentation of FACT. However this is not from people like me, or Bruce, or DJ, or any of the other people that you have attempted to rip apart in a desperate and delusional attempt to discredit them and every word they utter. Its from you, and those with the same motives.
The simple fact of the matter is that nothing NEGATIVE has come from the things that we have said here on fornits. What has resulted has been accountability, HLA being lisenced, and an overall airing out of HLA's dirty laundry. You spewing your self proclaimed "truths" do nothing but attempt to obscure and distract from the REAL issues at Hidden Lake.
Who. I know, to the very core of everything I am, what happened at Hidden Lake. I do not need 3000 pages of reports to remind me. You can claim to be a "defender of truth", but I KNOW the truth. I lived it and breathed it for 23 months. And nothing of what you defend is anything that I would ever, EVER align myself with. I feel very sorry for you, Who. Because there are only two options here. Either your blissfully and wholeheartedly ignorant to anything real that has happend at Hidden Lake, and are due a very, very rude awakening. Or... You already know the truth, and are so devoid of any humanity that you would go on protecting these sick, sick individuals. If the latter is indeed the case... Then there truly is nothing left to say.
I have seen many accounts (my daughter specifically) who are much stronger individuals post program then when they went in. I have seen kids lose parents and loved ones. I have seen them in the depths of abuse, take some heavy hits from life and manage to emerge without inflicting damage on themselves physical or mental and continue on with their lives. These were the same kids who were so fragile that any one of these events would have sent them spirally on a self destructive path.
I know there are kids, like yourself, that were hurt by the industry and I know there are abusive staff and programs which I would never recommend to a neighbor or family member. But the volume doesn’t offset the kids that were helped. We need to expose the ugly side of the industry, but it needs to be done honestly and without effecting the segment of the industry that is helpful to the kids and their families.
I dont expect you to understand any of this from your vantage point as I cant see what you are feeling. But I truly believe if we can keep the information honest and call people on their BS posts (pro and anti program) and keep questioning until the truth surfaces then we will know where to focus the effort.
Hating the entire public school system and wanting it shut down because of one or two schools or staff members is just not going to work and is an ineffective use of peoples time . You are just spinning your wheels with no end. So HLA is licensed. Are you happy now? Does it make it a better place? Licensing may make programs more marketable and allow them to expand more easily. It will allow the parents to get loans more easily and maybe the loans would be guaranteed by the government if they have oversight.
If regulation is a goal then that is a noble effort to work towards and would have a measurable progress. But it is impossible to hold a yardstick up to the effects of spreading hatred and mistruths. Where do you, DJ and Bruce expect it to go?
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I did not find this event anywhere in the court papers. I did not find any recognition of other abuse, either. Please enlighten us with the doc/page number of the accusation in the court documents. If you find anything, which I doubt, then be sure to give the counter, also. Otherwise, you're biased and not a reliable source for objectivity. Also, how are you privy to someone's private medical records? Hearsay is worthless. Even I can make up hearsay. Like a lot of this website, I think you're full of it and made it up or else you believe everything everyone tells you, which makes you very gullible to lies.
Clarke told the truth about this. Kristen Bell and Josh Watson were there and they all will never forget it, nor will the childs' mother. You speak without knowledge. You were not involved in any parts of the investigations into HLA nor did you speak with the parents of those injured in a myriad of incidents, including rape and not just 'this' rape. Again, your blinded by your ignorance. People worked thankless hours researching, taking calls, making calls to expose this fiasco. Staff took emormous risk to expose the truth at HLA, some risked their entire career, their families. Some bureid their head in the sand. Massive amounts of emails, letters, etc, came in from families, staff, former staff, Psychiatrists affiliated with HLA, which is privileged info... also the children were minors. I have over 15,000. paper doc's myself, not to mention electronic copy . And, it is not just me. We all received doc's that were turned over. Everything that came in, went to Berger and Montague.. People were contacting Berger and Montague directly from all over the country, years apart, but all saying the same thing. The ORS has the incidents from interviewing children, families, 911 calls, LCSO interviews etc. If you were part of the initial investigation, the lawsuit and the GAO investigation, you would have been aware of their existence.
Conspiracy? Complicity. The State turned their backs for years on the children, knowing what was transpiring at HLA, but did not have the backbone to butt heads against Buccellato.
We want accountability and an apology that will never come from the agencies, the State of Georgia and Buccellato himself.
Each and every parent of a child that was injured at HLA that I spoke with, were totally devasted. There were nights when the tears that soaked their faces, stung my heart. I never met any of them, they didn't know each other, they just needed to cry and somehow found me. Try listening to a mother of a child that they, the parents, found in the woods, raped and shot up with drugs, while LCSO were scratching their heads on the drive at HLA. The child ended up in a Mental Institution and last I spoke to the mother, she was lost to them. Or, the children that were hazed, zip-tied, cold cocked or found hanging in a closet...there was no supervision and certainly no care for these troubled children. HLA was over their head and not qualified to accept or care for these children. Heroin addicts? The second HLA found out that any child was an active heroin , barbituate, opiate, whatever user, those families should have been called and told HLA was not qualified to detox any addicts, period. The child in question should have been removed. That is what a decent P.H.D. in Psychology should do, but then again this was/is Buccellato.
How can you be so callous, "if we cannot learn from history.. Unless we were all put in a trance by a spaceship 15 years apart, in some cases, this all happened, deal with it, learn from it and work toward it not being allowed to occur again.
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I did not find this event anywhere in the court papers. I did not find any recognition of other abuse, either. Please enlighten us with the doc/page number of the accusation in the court documents. If you find anything, which I doubt, then be sure to give the counter, also. Otherwise, you're biased and not a reliable source for objectivity. Also, how are you privy to someone's private medical records? Hearsay is worthless. Even I can make up hearsay. Like a lot of this website, I think you're full of it and made it up or else you believe everything everyone tells you, which makes you very gullible to lies.
How can you be so callous, "if we cannot learn from history.. Unless we were all put in a trance by a spaceship 15 years apart, in some cases, this all happened, deal with it, learn from it and work toward it not being allowed to occur again.
Why not arrest the perps, all the staff that collaborated in these atrocities, and the men who organized them: Rudy Bentz and L.B?
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So let me get this straight. You think that if I were to get pulled into a back alleyway tomorrow walking home from work, and were raped, that the "harrassment" (YOUR WORDS) I endured at Hidden Lake would better prepare me to "deal with it".
If by your own admission HLA "harrasses" rape victims, then what tools could I have possibly learned from these well equipped "professionals" to handle such an ordeal?
What qualifications do you hold in the treatment of rape victims to make these kinds of statements? What personal experience do you have with the effect of rape on a young person to say that anything I ENDURED (not benefited from) at Hidden Lake Academy would prepare me for my hypotectical future rape?
You're absolutely right. The biggest consistency I see in the forum is the misrepresentation of FACT. However this is not from people like me, or Bruce, or DJ, or any of the other people that you have attempted to rip apart in a desperate and delusional attempt to discredit them and every word they utter. Its from you, and those with the same motives.
The simple fact of the matter is that nothing NEGATIVE has come from the things that we have said here on fornits. What has resulted has been accountability, HLA being lisenced, and an overall airing out of HLA's dirty laundry. You spewing your self proclaimed "truths" do nothing but attempt to obscure and distract from the REAL issues at Hidden Lake.
Who. I know, to the very core of everything I am, what happened at Hidden Lake. I do not need 3000 pages of reports to remind me. You can claim to be a "defender of truth", but I KNOW the truth. I lived it and breathed it for 23 months. And nothing of what you defend is anything that I would ever, EVER align myself with. I feel very sorry for you, Who. Because there are only two options here. Either your blissfully and wholeheartedly ignorant to anything real that has happend at Hidden Lake, and are due a very, very rude awakening. Or... You already know the truth, and are so devoid of any humanity that you would go on protecting these sick, sick individuals. If the latter is indeed the case... Then there truly is nothing left to say.
Amen, babe...
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Lacey wrote:
"Who. I know, to the very core of everything I am, what happened at Hidden Lake. I do not need 3000 pages of reports to remind me. You can claim to be a "defender of truth", but I KNOW the truth. I lived it and breathed it for 23 months. And nothing of what you defend is anything that I would ever, EVER align myself with. I feel very sorry for you, Who. Because there are only two options here. Either your blissfully and wholeheartedly ignorant to anything real that has happend at Hidden Lake, and are due a very, very rude awakening. Or... You already know the truth, and are so devoid of any humanity that you would go on protecting these sick, sick individuals. If the latter is indeed the case... Then there truly is nothing left to say."
APTLY STATED.
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I know there are kids, like yourself, that were hurt by the industry and I know there are abusive staff and programs which I would never recommend to a neighbor or family member. But the volume doesn’t offset the kids that were helped. We need to expose the ugly side of the industry, but it needs to be done honestly and without effecting the segment of the industry that is helpful to the kids and their families.
You know there were kids hurt by this industry? John you send kids to be hurt by this industry. Whatsmore, you yourself adamently claimed that less then 1% of all kids ever incarcerated at these places were ever abused, You later changed your claim to 0, You claimed we were all liars. On top of that you talk about the volume of kids who were helped. Where are they John? Again you and your kiddie abusing pals have had more then 30 years to document the effectiveness of this "treatment" what's the hold up. 30 years and not a single study done? What's the volume John? What's the percentage? Can you provide any real evidence to back up your claim? Anything at all?
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I have seen many accounts (my daughter specifically) who are much stronger individuals post program then when they went in.
Yeah. I'm a lot stronger post program, I'll give you that...
But I wonder... was it the program's 'effectiveness' that made me stronger?...
OR was it the fact that:
...I had to learn on my feet how to handle seeing my friends turned into mindless shells as they internalized they disgust that hey were slathered with so generously by their 'counselors'?
...Had to handle the pressures of being interrogated while my body was screaming after hours of forced PT?
...Being screeched at by men with military training that I would give them the answer they wanted, whether or not it was the truth, or else I would be there until I lost consciousness from pain or dehydration?
Learning that no one can be trusted?
That neither the adults who I was in the 'care' of, nor my parents would protect me from physical and mental abuse?
... Just something you might want to think about. Or better yet, ask your daughter.
I have seen kids lose parents and loved ones. I have seen them in the depths of abuse, take some heavy hits from life and manage to emerge without inflicting damage on themselves physical or mental and continue on with their lives. These were the same kids who were so fragile that any one of these events would have sent them spirally on a self destructive path.
Right again. The survivors survive. That was what we had to do at HLA and that is what we've been doing since.
POWs can handle the death of a loved one, too.
Are you missing the point that we are not stronger, as much as we are desensitized?
Do you think being hard and uncaring is better than being human and 'fragile'?
Do you not think that adolescent girls (or boys) are supposed to be fragile? That that is what adolescence IS?
And if not, than maybe you can specify an age at which children are no longer entitled to 'fragility'... Why wait until adolescence at all? Why not begin the torture as soon as language acquisition begins? I mean we don't need all these toddlers throwing tantrums as they 'spiral into self-destructive paths' of saying "NO" and fighting with their siblings and eating paste.
Maybe you should consider giving a little less credit for your daughter's strength to the program, and a little more to your daughter.
Namaste
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He can't ask his daughter, he doesn't have one. He had two sons but one of them killed himself to get away from his father, This was of course after Whooter locked him up in ASR and SUWS. He has another son who he sent, still believing the crock of shit does anyone any good anywhere, to HLA.
Hey John, why dont you ask Mike if he's stronger after going through your program?
He currently is an industry shill, taking underprivledged kids and forcing them into these places. If he gets thrown a bone back for it...well who's to know right Whootie?
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I have seen many accounts (my daughter specifically) who are much stronger individuals post program then when they went in.
Yeah. I'm a lot stronger post program, I'll give you that...
But I wonder... was it the program's 'effectiveness' that made me stronger?...
OR was it the fact that:
...I had to learn on my feet how to handle seeing my friends turned into mindless shells as they internalized they disgust that hey were slathered with so generously by their 'counselors'?
...Had to handle the pressures of being interrogated while my body was screaming after hours of forced PT?
...Being screeched at by men with military training that I would give them the answer they wanted, whether or not it was the truth, or else I would be there until I lost consciousness from pain or dehydration?
Learning that no one can be trusted?
That neither the adults who I was in the 'care' of, nor my parents would protect me from physical and mental abuse?
... Just something you might want to think about. Or better yet, ask your daughter.
I have seen kids lose parents and loved ones. I have seen them in the depths of abuse, take some heavy hits from life and manage to emerge without inflicting damage on themselves physical or mental and continue on with their lives. These were the same kids who were so fragile that any one of these events would have sent them spirally on a self destructive path.
Right again. The survivors survive. That was what we had to do at HLA and that is what we've been doing since.
POWs can handle the death of a loved one, too.
Are you missing the point that we are not stronger, as much as we are desensitized?
Do you think being hard and uncaring is better than being human and 'fragile'?
Do you not think that adolescent girls (or boys) are supposed to be fragile? That that is what adolescence IS?
And if not, than maybe you can specify an age at which children are no longer entitled to 'fragility'... Why wait until adolescence at all? Why not begin the torture as soon as language acquisition begins? I mean we don't need all these toddlers throwing tantrums as they 'spiral into self-destructive paths' of saying "NO" and fighting with their siblings and eating paste.
Maybe you should consider giving a little less credit for your daughter's strength to the program, and a little more to your daughter.
Namaste
Posts like yours convince me even more that there are wide differences between programs. My daughter had a great experience. She will be the first one to admit it was hard and wouldnt want to do it again, but there was no abuse and she always felt safe with the staff there. She is a stronger person post program because of what she learned about herself there. She learned she was in charge of her own destiny and could choose how to live her life. I am sorry for what you had to go thru. I wish everyone could have the same experience we did, but unfortunately there will always be people in this world who prey on children. If not in a program then in a summer camp some place or public school. The programs which stand by and allow this to occur or turn a blind eye to it need to change or be shut down.
I think we all agree more than we disagree but we seem to be passionate in the areas of our differences. Your experience was vastly different than my daughters and we need to work harder to elliminate what you have gone thru in programs and do more of what my daughter had. If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
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If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
Haven't seen anything resembling this yet. Are you going to invent one?
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If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?
You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.
So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?
Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.
I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?
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If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?
You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.
So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?
Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.
I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?
Let me ask a question. How come you view correcting a misconception as defending a program. There was information presented that HLA had 100% failure during their licensure inspection by the ORS. It was stated that they failed all the random inspection points. Not one person challenged this on the board. If I or someone stated that HLA passed the inspection with flying colors with 100% success rate we would have posters coming out of the woodwork calling the poster a liar and challenging their statements. You have been here long enough to know this. So why if there is false information presented which shows programs in a bad light then it is somehow acceptable and if I point this out then I am automatically a defender of programs and must be getting kickbacks or getting paid.
The reason I believe you don’t see this is because you were in 9 programs and your judgment is clouded and you cannot be objective or fair. If someone states they were abused at HLA you take it face value. If someone says they had a daughter who was helped by a program then they must be an imaginary daughter because this is not something you can comprehend. If you look a little closer at it I am the one who is BETTER able to look at both sides of the industry and see the good as well as the bad where you are not capable of a fair view. You have been damaged by the industry and therefore cannot be objective.
So the more pressing question would be why are you still here? What value can you add by your presence? How can you assess the truth and work to get it to the top and expose the corrupt areas?
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Lacy got a program pimp to finally admit that this industry is damaging. Sure, this was in an attempt to side step the points posed in her post, but it’s astounding none the less.
If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?
You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.
So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?
Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.
I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?
You have been damaged by the industry and therefore cannot be objective.
Program pimp evidences circular "logic".^
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Lacy got a program pimp to finally admit that this industry is damaging. Sure, this was in an attempt to side step the points posed in her post, but it’s astounding none the less.
It would be short sighted of us to believe the industry can help everyone. I don’t think we could name one industry which hasn’t damaged anyone.
Lets say we were talking about the car industry. Do you think that a person who has been in 9 different cars and experienced a few major car accidents and ended up damaged could be objective about the car industry? Would you support pulling every car off the road? Or would you expect a person who had seen both the good and the bad side of the industry, like myself, to be more objective and work towards exposing the bad areas and rising up the good?
If you would like to point out the sidesteps I would be happy to respond.
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That end might be better served by you actually answering the questions posed to you by Lacey...instead of dismissing her perspective.
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That end might be better served by you actually answering the questions posed to you by Lacey...instead of dismissing her perspective.
Well okay lets take a look at her post again.
Lacy asked: You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?
Lacy answered: people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry.
Lacy asks again: So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry?
Lacy answered: people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry.
Lacy asks another question: What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve?
Lacy answers the question once again: we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier.
Then Lacy asks: Why are you here?
I'll answer this one: To add balance and to try to help expose the truth... there it is. People have a hard time seeing this but I manage to accomplish this here more often than you would like to believe.
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That end might be better served by you actually answering the questions posed to you by Lacey...instead of dismissing her perspective.
Well okay lets take a look at her post again.
Then Lacy asks: Why are you here?
I'll answer this one: To add balance and to try to help expose the truth... there it is. People have a hard time seeing this but I manage to accomplish this here more often than you would like to believe.
Otherwise programs would have to rely on Public Relations Firms for this “Balance.”
“Balance” includes discounting the value of firsthand accounts?
If an actuary deems the harm you might incur from the product of or services provided by an industry as being incidental would you accept that as cause to be dismissive of the consequences you might experience and the value of your testimony?
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In order to keep the continuity of the topic at hand, I’m going to repost this.
If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?
You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.
So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?
Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.
I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?
(…and because I liked it so much)
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Otherwise programs would have to rely on Public Relations Firms for this “Balance.”
“Balance” includes discounting the value of firsthand accounts?
Exactly, when Lacey discounted my daughter’s experiences by saying she was imaginary I think this goes against what I am trying to do. It is important to listen to all points of view, positive and negative. In order to be balanced you need to keep an open mind. If I stated that Laceys experiences were all in her mind I think that would be counterproductive to extending any further conversation between the two of us and the quality of our interaction would deteriorate rather quickly I would guess.
If an actuary deems the harm you might incur from the product of or services provided by an industry as being incidental would you accept that as cause to be dismissive of the consequences you might experience and the value of your testimony?
Well it depends on the total financial risk. If it was incidental like you suggested but the person was in a position to absorb the loss fairly easily then I would say it would warrant challenging the actuaries suggestion and taking the risk (against professional opinion) if you felt it would be in yours or your childs best interest or if the downside was short.
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So let me get this straight. You think that if I were to get pulled into a back alleyway tomorrow walking home from work, and were raped, that the "harrassment" (YOUR WORDS) I endured at Hidden Lake would better prepare me to "deal with it".
If by your own admission HLA "harrasses" rape victims, then what tools could I have possibly learned from these well equipped "professionals" to handle such an ordeal?
What qualifications do you hold in the treatment of rape victims to make these kinds of statements? What personal experience do you have with the effect of rape on a young person to say that anything I ENDURED (not benefited from) at Hidden Lake Academy would prepare me for my hypotectical future rape?
You're absolutely right. The biggest consistency I see in the forum is the misrepresentation of FACT. However this is not from people like me, or Bruce, or DJ, or any of the other people that you have attempted to rip apart in a desperate and delusional attempt to discredit them and every word they utter. Its from you, and those with the same motives.
The simple fact of the matter is that nothing NEGATIVE has come from the things that we have said here on fornits. What has resulted has been accountability, HLA being lisenced, and an overall airing out of HLA's dirty laundry. You spewing your self proclaimed "truths" do nothing but attempt to obscure and distract from the REAL issues at Hidden Lake.
Who. I know, to the very core of everything I am, what happened at Hidden Lake. I do not need 3000 pages of reports to remind me. You can claim to be a "defender of truth", but I KNOW the truth. I lived it and breathed it for 23 months. And nothing of what you defend is anything that I would ever, EVER align myself with. I feel very sorry for you, Who. Because there are only two options here. Either your blissfully and wholeheartedly ignorant to anything real that has happend at Hidden Lake, and are due a very, very rude awakening. Or... You already know the truth, and are so devoid of any humanity that you would go on protecting these sick, sick individuals. If the latter is indeed the case... Then there truly is nothing left to say.
[/quote]
Notice TheIt doesn’t answer Lacey, just spewed vague, canned puerility about all programs not being bad?
He couldn’t explain how Hidden Lake Academy’s policy of abusing rape victims will help Lacey, a rape victim, in her (hypothetical) future rape—something it stipulated it will do for her. (the nerve)
Not that it really believes rape victims are helped by abuse. TheIt is not here to communicate, but to manipulate.
Rather like cultic processes, it aims to manipulate certain emotional responses from its victims, and relies on psychological “tricks” (as best as it can from its vantage point from behind the internet) to influence survivors and readers. Rather like a program, with malice of forethought, it understands how certain emotional stimuli effects and confuses and comes to fornits to engage these "tools" against the children it once(i'll bet) abused from in the confines of a gulag.
TheIt has a series of canned, rehearsed responses it recites.
The one it spews in response to personal testimony of torment: “I am sorry that this happened to you. Not all programs are like this.”Then TheIT will usually move to further deny their experience by stating it probably made him/her stronger, or they “know of” kids that where helped by the same thing s/he was traumatized by. Sometimes it will litterally laught "ha,ha,ha" at the account of abuse
Its spiel minimizes, trivializes, and denies the vicims’ experience .Invalidation is its own form of emotional abuse.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/ver ... buse/82837 (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/verbal_emotional_abuse/82837)
http://eqi.org/invalid.htm (http://eqi.org/invalid.htm)
Similarly, Hidden Lake Acadmy and Academy at Swift river have a canned incredibly emotionally abusive response for "parents" of its prisoners to recite when they report misery, abuse, slavery, torture: "I am sorry you are having difficulty, work your program."
TheIt is in deep with the cultic gulags and it is very aware of the emotionally abusive aspect of its responses, and selects them for this reason.
I would not be surprised it isn’t involved more deeply involved in cultic-gulags than even John “I killed my own son” Reuben. (Didn’t it mention at one point that “we” used operate one "short term" cult (EST?) until “we” realized that more “long term” treatment are necessary)
Ignore it. It lies. It mocks. It is pointless to engage. State your piece and don't let It control the conversation. Better yet, submit your experience to ISAC and HEAL in the form of sworn testimony. Best, go to the police, and then the media.
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Notice TheIt doesn’t answer Lacey, just spewed vague, canned puerility about all programs not being bad?
Actually your first line goes against everything thewho/theit fights for. If you bothered to read anything that he writes you would know that he doesnt believe "All" programs are good or that "All" programs are bad. He believes both exist
He fights against your type of mentality and propaganda.
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Notice TheIt doesn’t answer Lacey, just spewed vague, canned puerility about all programs not being bad?
Actually your first line goes against everything thewho/theit fights for. If you bothered to read anything that he writes you would know that he doesnt believe "All" programs are good or that "All" programs are bad. He believes both exist
He fights against your type of mentality and propaganda.
If you could read, you'd understand the phrase "all programs not being bad" doesn't imply all programs are good. Similarly, "all dogs are not poodles," does not imply all dogs are poodles. Try again, child abusing proponant.
TheIt fights for the maintenance of his bank account and gets a twisted thrill by harassing survivors. TheIT is a duplicitous sociopath.
Still waiting for TheITs explanation of how he feels Hidden Lake Academy’s gave her the tools to prepare her for her hypothetical future rape.
Are you gonna regale us with how Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her, and explain your contention, TheIt?
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Ha,Ha,Ha, We would love to see the posted link on this one.
so now thewho said: "Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her"... we would love to see the link where he said this, but we all know you post untruths. But that is what makes Fornits a nice challenge, doesnt it.
How about if we wait for Bruce to string together his guest posts. Then we will see which post is whos.
you have to love this place, and they ask me why I post here!!
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.
I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
yoink. Its a bitch, I'm sure, not being able to alter your posts as their sheer nonsensical, absurd, cruelty mounts against you, and by extension, Hidden Lake Academy proponents.
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.
I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45)
yoink. Its a bitch, I'm sure, not being able to alter your posts as their sheer nonsensical, absurd, cruelty mounts against you, and by extension, Hidden Lake Academy proponents.
As you gotta know that your words can be easily linked to and quoted, one must wonder what is your motivation for denying them?
What would Charles dederich, or Erhard say about that?
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Yes, I believe she would be in a stronger position to deal with it if it occured post program. Most kids are stronger afterthe emerge from a program thanks for finding that. It is worth repeating.....
but we are still waiting for the link to where thewho said: "Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her"..... you are still searching we understand, take your time.
you could be Bruces twin, I swear, you both step in it the same way....But Bruce claims he doesnt post as a guest so you must be someone else. We will wait for your link.
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Yes, I believe she would be in a stronger position to deal with it if it occured post program. Most kids are stronger afterthe emerge from a program thanks for finding that. It is worth repeating.....
but we are still waiting for the link to where thewho said: "Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her"..... you are still searching we understand, take your time.
you could be Bruces twin, I swear, you both step in it the same way....But Bruce claims he doesnt post as a guest so you must be someone else. We will wait for your link.
LOL, I think searching for that post will keep Bruce busy the rest of the night. Especially since it doesnt exist.
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TheWho, can you explain again to Lacey how she is better off now than before HLA? Please tell this poor girl again how HLA helps sexual abuse victims get "tools" to deal with those issues. It looks like she's not getting your point about how she would have been worse off without HLA.
Re-read the post, it was TheWho who was asking the guestion, not the other way around. Also I think the original point was that a child would be better prepared for life, after their stay at HLA, not prepared for events that occured before they went to HLA.
I understand it can be confusing with all these guest posts, but it seems thewho agrees with many of you on this issue.
Before or after, Who.... How could a program that took that approach to sexual abuse victims possibly have any degree of compitency with preparing someone for a future sexual attack? By employing those very tactics? Which OBVIOUSLY do not work? I was further victimized by the very people my parents payed hundreds of thousands of dollars to, thinking they were helping. That is FACT.
I have read your posts for YEARS, Who. How can you possibly sit there and defend Hidden Lake Academy? The awful truth of this is that they are severely damaging children. I am not some sensationalist that wants to poke my nose in every argument that is started here on fornits, which is why in 3 or 4 years, I only have a small number of posts. You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45)
yoink. Its a bitch, I'm sure, not being able to alter your posts as their sheer nonsensical, absurd, cruelty mounts against you, and by extension, Hidden Lake Academy proponents.
As you gotta know that your words can be easily linked to and quoted, one must wonder what is your motivation for denying them?
What would Charles dederich, or Erhard say about that?
Well, TheIt, you, said Lacey was abused by Hidden Lake Academy. You also said that she is better equipped to deal with her rape, if it were to have happened in the future, because of what Hdden Lake Academy did to her. That is the meaning of this paragraph:
[So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. ?
So, the question remains, how did Lacey's abuse at the hand of Hidden Lake Academy make her better equipped to deal with her rape?
(And just as an aside, how the hell do you live with yourself telling a victim her abuser helped her? How can you leverage the emotinal pain of both abuse and rape against this girl? A tactic you learned at Lifespring or Est, perhaps? Maybe, Direct from the master, Rudy Bentz?)
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LOL, Keep Lookin!! let us know when you find it.
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LOL, Keep Lookin!! let us know when you find it.
I think searching for that post will keep Bruce busy the rest of the night. Especially since it doesnt exist. I cant believe he keeps looking for it like this.
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LOL, Keep Lookin!! let us know when you find it.
I think searching for that post will keep Bruce busy the rest of the night. Especially since it doesnt exist. I cant believe he keeps looking for it like this.
Isnt Bruce the same guy who thought the state of Georgia only looks at 6 items when performing a state license inspection? TheWho, you exposed him again when you showed him the ORS online reports. He didnt realize they were posted online and got caught in another lie. I wonder if he even ever attended HLA?
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Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
I dont see myself as a defender of HLA. I see myself as a defender of the truth. I mentioned earlier that I wouldn’t send my kid there. You have been here long enough to know that the truth isn’t a big priority here as long as the program looks bad. Take the inspection results of HLA. The reports clearly stated that the report was a list of discrepancies found, but posters like Bruce and others would rather mislead readers into believing that HLA failed every aspect of the inspection. To me this deception does everyone harm. No one else spoke up except myself. There are posters who feel everyone that dies post program is a result of the program even if they have been out for years. The reason they post crap like this is not for accuracy but to discredit programs. But what they dont realize is that they are discrediting fornits. Virtually no poster would step up and challenge a piece of information that portrayed a program negatively no matter how far fetched the story or information is. Many would rather sit in silence hoping the misinformation will drive readers to believe the worst is true about programs and decide not to send their child based on this. But what people dont see is this backfires and makes the forum look foolish.
But continuously asking questions and challenging answers, playing the devils advocate the truth eventually comes to the surface as it did in the last discussion on licensure.
I do believe that programs prepare kids for what life has to throw at them post program. I dont believe all programs are good or bad nor are they all alike. Many posters here like to envision the worst of the programs and peddle the idea that all programs are the same and damaging which we all know isn’t true but is good for the agenda of discrediting any program that comes along in discussion.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.[/quote]
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45)
yoink. Its a bitch, I'm sure, not being able to alter your posts as their sheer nonsensical, absurd, cruelty mounts against you, and by extension, Hidden Lake Academy proponents.
As you gotta know that your words can be easily linked to and quoted, one must wonder what is your motivation for denying them?
What would Charles dederich, or Erhard say about that?[/quote]
Well, TheIt, you, said Lacey was abused by Hidden Lake Academy. You also said that she is better equipped to deal with her rape, if it were to have happened in the future, because of what Hdden Lake Academy did to her. That is the meaning of this paragraph:
[So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. ?
So, the question remains, how did Lacey's abuse at the hand of Hidden Lake Academy make her better equipped to deal with her rape?
(And just as an aside, how the hell do you live with yourself telling a victim her abuser helped her? How can you leverage the emotinal pain of both abuse and rape against this girl? A tactic you learned at Lifespring or Est, perhaps? Maybe, Direct from the master, Rudy Bentz?)[/quote]
A person in totalist setting like that of hidden lake academy, not even allowed to make a phone calls to someone on the outside world, allotted punishments for disagreeing with you, and under the influence of a peer group that laughs along to escape punishment, might be influenced by influenced by your denial of reality that’s plain to read. To a certain extent, perception of reality can even be manipulated in controlled milleus
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landm ... rk269.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark269.html)
On the internet, not so much. Sockpuppeting another guest who "agrees with you," who, does not recreate group influence
So you cannot explain how the abuse, or "awful" “harassment” at Hidden Lake Academy, that you “think is terrible” that Lacey “had to go through” helped her?
Didn't think so.
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Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. .
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27545&start=45)
yoink. Its a bitch, I'm sure, not being able to alter your posts as their sheer nonsensical, absurd, cruelty mounts against you, and by extension, Hidden Lake Academy proponents.
As you gotta know that your words can be easily linked to and quoted, one must wonder what is your motivation for denying them?
What would Charles dederich, or Erhard say about that?
Well, TheIt, you, said Lacey was abused by Hidden Lake Academy. You also said that she is better equipped to deal with her rape, if it were to have happened in the future, because of what Hdden Lake Academy did to her. That is the meaning of this paragraph:
[So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. ?
[[So, the question remains, how did Lacey's abuse at the hand of Hidden Lake Academy make her better equipped to deal with her rape?
(And just as an aside, how the hell do you live with yourself telling a victim her abuser helped her? How can you leverage the emotinal pain of both abuse and rape against this girl? A tactic you learned at Lifespring or Est, perhaps? Maybe, Direct from the master, Rudy Bentz?)
A person in totalist setting like that of hidden lake academy, not even allowed to make a phone calls to someone on the outside world, allotted punishments for disagreeing with you, and under the influence of a peer group that laughs along to escape punishment, might be influenced by influenced by your denial of reality that’s plain to read. To a certain extent, perception of reality can even be manipulated in controlled milleus:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landm ... rk269.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark269.html)
On the internet, not so much. Sockpuppeting another guest who "agrees with you," who, does not recreate group influence
So you cannot explain how the abuse, or "awful" “harassment” at Hidden Lake Academy, that you “think is terrible” that Lacey “had to go through” helped her?
I didn't think so.
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Does anyone think Bruce is upset?
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Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
I anxiously await your response.
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. .
Well, TheIt, you, said Lacey was abused by Hidden Lake Academy. You also said that she is better equipped to deal with her rape, if it were to have happened in the future, because of what Hdden Lake Academy did to her. That is the meaning of this paragraph:
[So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. ?
A person in totalist setting like that of hidden lake academy, not even allowed to make a phone calls to someone on the outside world, allotted punishments for disagreeing with you, and under the influence of a peer group that laughs along to escape punishment, might be influenced by influenced by your denial of reality that’s plain to read. To a certain extent, perception of reality can even be manipulated in controlled milleus:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landm ... rk269.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark269.html)
On the internet, not so much. Sockpuppeting another guest who "agrees with you," who, does not recreate group influence
So you cannot explain how the abuse, or "awful" “harassment” at Hidden Lake Academy, that you “think is terrible” that Lacey “had to go through” helped her?
I didn't think so
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Does anyone think Bruce is upset?
As you know, its not Bruce, it's me, a guest with a malfunctioning computer.
Still not going to elaborate on how Lacey's abuser, Hidden Lake Acedemy , helped her deal with her rape had it occured after her "harrassment" at HLA?
Sure. That's because abuse, particularly cultic abuse direct from the Synanon CEDU gulag, by way of Rudy Bentz damages, doesn't help.
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Does anyone think Bruce is upset?
He is still looking for the post!!!!...it must be eating away at him to be proven wrong yet again.
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but we are still waiting for the link to where thewho said: "Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her"..... But I dont think it exists
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Are you still obsessed with me John? What is this with you? You think every poster who embarrasses you is me? Is that just because I've shamed you so many times already that you just expect it to be me? Or is it because you're still too arrogant to accept that I am only one of many who recognize you for the giant dooche bag that you are?
By all means though please enlighten us all into a time where you believe you've proven me wrong on anything. Offer up a single instance John. Pretty please?
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Anyway, Who, do you think the 'sodomized with a tree limb' girl is better off or worse off due to her stay at HLA? You didn't answer. Sounds like you think she is better off for being raped and having the 'tools' to overcome it.
Care to answer this one, Who? Was the girl better off for being forcibly raped? Your reasoning surrounding the heroin addiction issue seems to say "Yes, she's better off for being raped in a program so she knew how to cope with it." I just want to know your views.
Interesting question. Let me take a stab:
I think if the girl was raped after graduation and was able to overcome this obstacle and move on with her life because of strengths she had developed during her stay at HLA then she would be much better off then if she were raped and never had the advantage of HLA.
Hi. What program tools do they give at HLA to help rape victims? What advantage does a raped child have from going to HLA? How does HLA prepare children for being raped? What does HLA do with children who get raped while they are at HLA? I know some girls who were raped and they probably should be sent to HLA to learn how to overcome it, shouldn't they? Do they have a rape recovery program there?
Being a victim of rape and also a former HLA student I feel compelled to answer this. I was raped when I was 13, and sent to HLA when I was 15. I have PTSD, and horrific flashbacks. HLA was completely unprepared to handle a terrified, confused teenage girl suffering with these kinds of issues. Being forced to recount my ordeal time and time again to strangers in the first few months of my program was extremely humiliating and detrimental. Then to be surounded by inappropriate staff the entirety of my stay only solidified the fact that this was NOT a "safe" environment to first address the issues and be honest about what happend, and eventually try to work through those problems. There was no "strengths" that I developed while at HLA that had anything to do with dealing with my rape. Its easy to make frivolous comments in an attempt to support your argument like the one made above. However, the fact of the matter is had I never had the "advantage" (as you so ridiculously put it) of HLA, the healthy progress I made dealing with this event would not have been delayed 2 1/2 years. I would not have been further traumatized by their actions and their outlook on what the appropriate way to deal with the sexual abuse of a young teenager was.
So, sorry. Try to use a different argument to prove your incredibly flawed point of view, because there are certainly those of us that are absolute proof that HLA did nothing but further hinder our progress in this matter.
hello, lacey.
Would you mind detailing (what you are comfortable with) your abuse at Hidden Lake Academy? Were you kept prisoner there, or delivered there by abduction? Held incommunicado—not allowed to make phone calls to a lawyer, the police, or people on the outside world who might assist you?
thanks
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Keep Looking Bruce lol... classic
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Still jogging?
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You can come up with all the "facts" that you'd like, or attempt to discredit every HLA former student, parent or staff that speaks out against it. But please. Please tell me how a 15 year old girl sitting in a room with 17 strangers, in a state she's never been to, away from her parents for the first time in her life could possibly feel safe enough to recount intimate details of a rape, and have it be constructive in any way possible. They ask her was it dark out, was it light out. What color was the car she was in the back of. What words did he say to her while he was on top of her. Did he use a condom? Did it make her feel dirty? Did he use a chain or a rope to tie her leg to the front seat? As fucking uncomfortable as it is to read through those questions, imagine sitting in that fucking room having to answer them! And when I hesitated at all I was threatened with punishment and degraded as not wanting to "cooperate" with my "treatment". Please, Who. I am begging you. TELL ME HOW THIS COULD POSSIBLY BE WORTH DEFENDING. I am calling you out. I have never addressed you directly but you'd better step up and show your true colors here.
I have NOTHING to gain from speaking out against HLA. I live my life now, happily devoid of anything having to do with Hidden Lake. I chose not to be involved in the lawsuit. I never spent a penny that I'd want to recapture from that place. My ONLY reason for posting any of this is to get the truth about that place out. To save some other scared shitless little girl from ever having to endure all that I did while I was there.
What is it that YOU have to gain from defending a place like this?
So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
So let me get this straight. You think that if I were to get pulled into a back alleyway tomorrow walking home from work, and were raped, that the "harrassment" (YOUR WORDS) I endured at Hidden Lake would better prepare me to "deal with it". If by your own admission HLA "harrasses" rape victims, then what tools could I have possibly learned from these well equipped "professionals" to handle such an ordeal?
What qualifications do you hold in the treatment of rape victims to make these kinds of statements? What personal experience do you have with the effect of rape on a young person to say that anything I ENDURED (not benefited from) at Hidden Lake Academy would prepare me for my hypothetical future rape?
You're absolutely right. The biggest consistency I see in the forum is the misrepresentation of FACT. However this is not from people like me, or Bruce, or DJ, or any of the other people that you have attempted to rip apart in a desperate and delusional attempt to discredit them and every word they utter. It’s from you, and those with the same motives.
The reason I believe you don’t see this is because you were in 9 programs and your judgment is clouded and you cannot be objective or fair. If someone states they were abused at HLA you take it face value. If someone says they had a daughter who was helped by a program then they must be an imaginary daughter because this is not something you can comprehend. If you look a little closer at it I am the one who is BETTER able to look at both sides of the industry and see the good as well as the bad where you are not capable of a fair view. You have been damaged by the industry and therefore cannot be objective.
Lacy got a program pimp to finally admit that this industry is damaging. Sure, this was in an attempt to side step the points posed in her post, but it’s astounding none the less.
If you would like to point out the sidesteps I would be happy to respond.
That end might be better served by you actually answering the questions posed to you by Lacey...instead of dismissing her perspective.
Well okay lets take a look at her post again.
Then Lacy asks: Why are you here?
I'll answer this one: To add balance and to try to help expose the truth... there it is. People have a hard time seeing this but I manage to accomplish this here more often than you would like to believe.
Otherwise programs would have to rely on Public Relations Firms for this “Balance.”
“Balance” includes discounting the value of firsthand accounts?
Exactly,like when Lacey discounted my imaginary daughter’s experiences I think this goes against what I am trying to do. It is important to listen to all points of view, positive and negative. In order to be balanced you need to keep an open mind. If I stated that Laceys experiences were all in her mind I think that would be counterproductive to extending any further conversation between the two of us and the quality of our interaction would deteriorate rather quickly I would guess.
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Lacey,
I just have to let you know how endlessly sorry I am that you had to go through all of that... I have only a small insight as to how that must have impacted you.
I was in one of those rooms. I was one of those strangers that a peergroup member was coerced into recounting such trauma to.
I often wish I knew then what I know now... I wish I'd been more aggressive in questioning the counselors' methods and intentions... and I wonder if I could have helped the girls not let those reals sessions steal their right to anger, privacy, respect, and compassion.
I have tremendous respect for your courage and candidness here. You are putting yourself out there to advocate for the girls who were in those rooms today and for the girls that, if anyone hears you, hopefully may never enter them.
Keep fighting the good fight, babe.
You're a rockstar.
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If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
But a compassionate program model wouldn't be one that referred bounty hunter 'escorts' to the family of the clueless soon-to-be-intake...
It wouldn't keep children from communicating with their parents...
It wouldn't condone violent methods of keeping order...
A truly compassionate program model would see that each client is an individual, and wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep every child there, well-placed or not, as long as possible...
...and such a program would not be able to compete with the rest.
I'm sure these places considered compassion as a tool for best-service provision.... until a compassionate program model was recognized as a poor business model.
Additionally, to your premise:
Did this industry sprout from compassionate philosophy?...
Was empowering at risk youth from wealthy families in isolated settings something that well-meaning therapists decided would fill that population's need for guidance?
Or was hiding troublesome children for a small fortune an economic niche that some clever and greedy businessmen with psych backgrounds carved out and exploited?
I am curious... do you think this industry would exist at all if compassionate models were the norm?
Namaste
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But a compassionate program model wouldn't be one that referred bounty hunter 'escorts' to the family of the clueless soon-to-be-intake...
If there is a chance that the child would not go willingly or decide to run off then how else would the parents bring the child to the program? Escorts serve a purpose. Many schools do not utilize them or except children who will not come on their own accord but I can see their need for some families.
It wouldn't keep children from communicating with their parents...
Most programs that I am aware allow the kids to speak to their parents. Are they allowed to walk around 24/7 with a cell phone? no
It wouldn't condone violent methods of keeping order...
No a compassionate school would not tolerate violence.
A truly compassionate program model would see that each client is an individual, and wouldn't fight tooth and nail to keep every child there, well-placed or not, as long as possible...
I agree. The program length should be well defined with goals for the child to reach so that they can graduate.
...and such a program would not be able to compete with the rest.
Competition is what this country is built on. You think doctors are non competitive? The Phd types are the most competitive people in our society.
I'm sure these places considered compassion as a tool for best-service provision.... until a compassionate program model was recognized as a poor business model.
I understand you may see it this way from the perspective of someone who attended. I am sure the kid who is sent to his room for the night or grounded for a week feels his parents dont understand them and have no compassion for their needs at all.
Did this industry sprout from compassionate philosophy?...
I believe we all know that it did
Was empowering at risk youth from wealthy families in isolated settings something that well-meaning therapists decided would fill that population's need for guidance?
Yes
Or was hiding troublesome children for a small fortune an economic niche that some clever and greedy businessmen with psych backgrounds carved out and exploited?
No, it wasnt
I am curious... do you think this industry would exist at all if compassionate models were the norm?
Compassion for these children is what inspires the various models. It is what the industry exists for. Just because they make money doesn’t mean they are evil. Do your compassionate friends work for free?
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^^Giant, steaming pile of horse shit^^ Someone badly needs a history lesson on forced "treatment" in private institutions.
HLA was built by CEDU people. Remember CEDU? The place that was shut down for systematic child abuse? That's where HLA got its model. Poor showing, Whootie. Showing again you have no grip on the facts, don't understand psychology or children's needs. No wonder your kids are so messed up (the live ones).
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^^Giant, steaming pile of horse shit^^ Someone badly needs a history lesson on forced "treatment" in private institutions.
HLA was built by CEDU people. Remember CEDU? The place that was shut down for systematic child abuse? That's where HLA got its model. Poor showing, Whootie. Showing again you have no grip on the facts, don't understand psychology or children's needs. No wonder your kids are so messed up (the live ones).
Oh, come on. yeah, yeah and you can trace that back to the north koreans torure methods and the Nazis'... we have all heard that before. Thats a bunch of crap. If you trace anything back you can show it to be abusive.... we use to hang a guy from the nearest tree for stealing a horse a 100 years ago, now we put him in therapy and send him to college for free. Your ancesors killed and murdered kids, yet you are still free to walk around. Everything/everybody evolves, everything has a past. But it is not necessarily a reflection on present or future events.
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What's evolved John? The more you speak the more you highlight your own ignorance.
The first headmaster at HLA was your old child abusing friend and, murderer, Rudy Bentz. Rudy coming from having worked in CEDU gulags for years. He was brought in to set up the exact same model and program that has now been deemed abusive.
So tell us, what about the theraputic model, or general policies have they of their own accord changed?
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If there is a chance that the child would not go willingly or decide to run off then how else would the parents bring the child to the program? Escorts serve a purpose. Many schools do not utilize them or except children who will not come on their own accord but I can see their need for some families.
So you advocate children being snatched out of their bed in the middle of the night, being detained without cause, being held against their will, being transported across state lines, all without due process. Interesting.
Most programs that I am aware allow the kids to speak to their parents. Are they allowed to walk around 24/7 with a cell phone? no
Trying to glaze over the facts again John? Is there a difference between monitered, censored communication that can be cut off at any time, and free lines of communication? Should the threat of cutting off communication ever be used as a punishment? Should a child ever be denied access to a phone when they've been abused? Shouldnt they have a right to call someone to report what's happened? Let me give you Buchi's answers to each of those questions.
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Hell no, I dont want those little bastards telling on me. Send the little fucker out in the woods for a month.
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No a compassionate school would not tolerate violence
Then why do you so ardently advocate for the ones who do?
I agree. The program length should be well defined with goals for the child to reach so that they can graduate.
Really? Because Buchi felt that each kid should be kept there for the duration of the program, regardless of whether or not the childs goals had been met. He even gave bonuses for keeping kids locked up longer. Guess where he got that idea.
I understand you may see it this way from the perspective of someone who attended. I am sure the kid who is sent to his room for the night or grounded for a week feels his parents dont understand them and have no compassion for their needs at all.
And we understand that you see it from the perspective of someone who refers kids to these programs for kick backs.
I believe we all know that it did
Did it now? Why don't you educate us all on the history behind this industry. Tell us all about the major players who really got the ball rolling.
Compassion for these children is what inspires the various models. It is what the industry exists for. Just because they make money doesn’t mean they are evil. Do your compassionate friends work for free?
Where is the compassion in child abuse John?
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I feel a little for Bruce. No one is reading his posts and even posted it 3 times, no one responded. He really lost that credibility by telling everyone he doesnt guest post and then running away from having his post tied together under one user name. What do you think he is trying to hide? I wonder if he is the one who has been disrupting the HLA forum to try to keep it at the top or did he post all that porn awhile ago? Why not just get it done? It wouldnt take any of his own time.
I bet he has more guest posts than thewho did.
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Oh no John, we're just waiting on you.
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He's still driving to Camp Wasega Road, parking, then jogging to HLA, in hopes there still are parents driving by to attend work shops, so he can strut his stuff, attend the work shops, confirming to himself, it was going to be all about him - the jogger. He was a laughing stock amongst the staff, "an egotistical nut case".
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He's still driving to Camp Wasega Road, parking, then jogging to HLA, in hopes there still are parents driving by to attend work shops, so he can strut his stuff, attend the work shops, confirming to himself, it was going to be all about him - the jogger. He was a laughing stock amongst the staff, "an egotistical nut case".
Reuben has to be pretty old by now why would he be trying to strut his stuff? I thought this guy lived in Massachusetts.
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Is peter off the hook now?
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He's still driving to Camp Wasega Road, parking, then jogging to HLA, in hopes there still are parents driving by to attend work shops, so he can strut his stuff, attend the work shops, confirming to himself, it was going to be all about him - the jogger. He was a laughing stock amongst the staff, "an egotistical nut case".
Hidden Lake Academy has workshops for the parents? What are those like? A little like this?
http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html (http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html)
thewho's still failed to outline how Lacey's "harassment" by Hidden Lake Academy helped her with the rape that Hidden Lake Academy abused her with, if it had occurred after Hidden Lake Academy!?! If, indeed thewho is John Reuben, perhaps it is incumbent upon us to inform his donators the sorts of places John Reuben supports? And what it considers “help”?
10$s says none of his donors know abduction and imprisonment without due process, then torture and brainwashing, like that practiced at Hidden Lake Academy and Academy at Swift River, is what John Reuben means by “helping” teens. Perhaps survivors of CEDU, ASR and HLA survivors could inform them of this?
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Is peter off the hook now?
Its John now. We are absolutely sure this time because it fits. This guy flys down to HLA just to jog up and down the path and wave to parents as they drop off their kids. He is fucked up. He hands out business cards at local highschools and local courts.
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Is peter off the hook now?
Its John now. We are absolutely sure this time because it fits. This guy flys down to HLA just to jog up and down the path and wave to parents as they drop off their kids. He is fucked up. He hands out business cards at local highschools and local courts.
OMG! I remember this guy too. He wore a sweat band on his head, socks up to his knees and was in his 40's and would wave to everyone who passed him. was that thewho? Thats creepy.
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
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Hidden Lake Academy has workshops for the parents? What are those like? A little like this?
http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html (http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html)
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Hidden Lake Academy has workshops for the parents? What are those like? A little like this?
http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html (http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html)
No way. These places are not going to use workshops which call themselves cults. Maybe they are borderline cults themselves, but they never advertise this fact. There is no way HLA would openly say welcome parents to a cult workshop or whatever it says it is. this is a stretch I dont buy it.
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Hidden Lake Academy has workshops for the parents? What are those like? A little like this?
http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html (http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html)
No way. These places are not going to use workshops which call themselves cults. Maybe they are borderline cults themselves, but they never advertise this fact. There is no way HLA would openly say welcome parents to a cult workshop or whatever it says it is. this is a stretch I dont buy it.
Well, obviously I am not saying "Hidden Lake Academy" calls itself a cult or offers "workshops" they refer to as cultic. There is not one cult in the world that presents itself as a cult.
So what are the parent workshops like? Like this, a bit? A lot of affirming of the "reasons" the kids are there, which stated publicly in a group atmosphere serves to reify the "badness" of the detainees to their parents, and encourage the notion the detainees cannot be trusted and need continued incarceration?
http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html (http://www.rickross.com/groups/lifespring.html)
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
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He's still driving to Camp Wasega Road, parking, then jogging to HLA, in hopes there still are parents driving by to attend work shops, so he can strut his stuff, attend the work shops, confirming to himself, it was going to be all about him - the jogger. He was a laughing stock amongst the staff, "an egotistical nut case".
Reuben has to be pretty old by now why would he be trying to strut his stuff? I thought this guy lived in Massachusetts.
If this is the same John Reuben(from Massachusetts) whose son attended HLA, while his son was at HLA and during parent work shops, he would do his 'jogging thing'... Ridiculous. I guess it made him feel like he was somebody, he needed to stand out in the crowd or something.
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
It's the same John Rueben that won't address this ^
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
It is funny how everyone misreads the same quote over and over again. I was waiting for someone to correct it… but anyway. I have no idea if HLA is set up to help kids who were raped. I don’t know what their model is. What I do know is that programs help kids to be better prepared for what life throws at them “Post Program”. I have seen kids face similar problems and the ones who had been in a program tend to handle the problems much better.
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Your inadequate “explanation” needs some work.
I have seen kids face similar problems and the ones who had been in a program tend to handle the problems much better.
Like being put through another program?
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Like being put through another program?
Didnt mean to leave out the kids who have been in more than one..... Geesh.. you guys are tough. Rephrase:
I have seen kids face similar problems and the ones who had been in programs tend to handle the problems much better
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I don’t care who you are you miserable troll. Your claims about your agenda here don’t wash with me.
You’re an ass.
You don’t care about presenting balance in a discussion.
You have spent years embroiled in an ongoing one sided semantics game.
You don’t care what it was like for someone who was in one or more of these very harmful programs.
You can’t be made to even consider the possible effect of your dismissive missives on anyone who was in one (or even more) of these programs who may actually have experienced additional trauma later on.
You’re an inconsiderate sub-par pseudo intellectual agent provocateur who isn’t even capable of seeing how very poorly you serve your professed purpose of being a program proponent.
If you were capable of any of these insights you would be aware of how your reductive, dismissive, insensitive and yeah, (even to your claimed objective) incompetence is exactly like that of the buffoons with sets of shiny keys on rings that run these places are.
You whoever the hell you are…will not prevail in this misguided endeavor of yours to belittle the firsthand accounts of those who experienced and witnessed crimes committed against children in these programs.
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He's still driving to Camp Wasega Road, parking, then jogging to HLA, in hopes there still are parents driving by to attend work shops, so he can strut his stuff, attend the work shops, confirming to himself, it was going to be all about him - the jogger. He was a laughing stock amongst the staff, "an egotistical nut case".
Reuben has to be pretty old by now why would he be trying to strut his stuff? I thought this guy lived in Massachusetts.
If this is the same John Reuben(from Massachusetts) whose son attended HLA, while his son was at HLA and during parent work shops, he would do his 'jogging thing'... Ridiculous. I guess it made him feel like he was somebody, he needed to stand out in the crowd or something.
What was his jogging thing?
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his jogging thing is the part where he runs around in circles trying not to look like such a dumb ass
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Ha,Ha,Ha, We would love to see the posted link on this one.
so now thewho said: "Hidden Lake Academy helped Lacey by abusing her"... we would love to see the link where he said this, but we all know you post untruths. But that is what makes Fornits a nice challenge, doesnt it.
How about if we wait for Bruce to string together his guest posts. Then we will see which post is whos.
you have to love this place, and they ask me why I post here!!
That was certainly the logic you were employing when you made the statement that by HLA harrassing me (again, your words) they gave me the tools necessary to deal with a hypothetical future rape. So how is that different from "Hidden Lake helped me by harrassing/abusing me..."?
Tons of things can help someone prepare for future hardships, but that doesn't make them worth advocating, or make them right. Like if I got raped tomorrow, the fact that I have already had to develop a skills set to continue with life from my previous assault would of course, prepare me to deal with it again. So we should rape/abuse children so that they'd be prepared for those very events? Is that the argument that you're trying to make? That because I was abused at Hidden Lake that it would help prepare me for future abuse? Is that truly the precident that you'd like to be setting? You may think this is a jump, but with the logic you've already employed, its just the next sensible step.
If that is in fact a statement that you'd support, the I would urge everyone reading Who's posts to seriously consider his set of morality and ethics.
Your argument that not all programs are bad... I was not addressing all programs. I was adressing this one, the forum that we're in, the conversation we've been having - Hidden Lake Academy. You are once again obscuring the issue at hand that HIDDEN LAKE is corrupt, by countering with "Oh, well not ALL programs are bad." You did not answer my questions, or even stay on topic.
How about we try again this time, not supporting your arguments with examples from other programs, or some sucess stories you've heard from "some kids" about "some programs"... Lets try HIDDEN LAKE.
I'll ask again. How did HLA prepare me to deal with future hardships by harrassing/abusing me?
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If you had more compassionate staff and program model, Mary, I think you would have a better view of the industry.
Who, people like Mary and I have the BEST view of the industry. I personally have been to 9 seperate treatment programs of varying lengths of time. You observe from the comfort of your home, living vicariously through some (more than likely) fictitous story your "daughter" brought home from one program. You think that gives you the "better view of the industry"?
You turn your computer off at night when your done on here playing your little role, and these horrible places are erased from your day. Blinked out, just like a computer moniter. You walk about your home, you go to work, you get in your car and drive away if you'd like. But the children held captive by the programs you defend are still out there. Unable to even tell the truth about whats happening to their parents, the only people who could help them.
So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry?
Who. You have nothing to say here. You do not know what you are talking about.
I once again pose the question. For someone who is remarkably removed from the situation... What interest do you have in this that you are trying to preserve? Because we already know its not this idealistic and valiant defense of truth you so proudly touted earlier, because what you are defending is in fact NOT true. So Who. Why are you here?
Let me ask a question. How come you view correcting a misconception as defending a program. There was information presented that HLA had 100% failure during their licensure inspection by the ORS. It was stated that they failed all the random inspection points. Not one person challenged this on the board. If I or someone stated that HLA passed the inspection with flying colors with 100% success rate we would have posters coming out of the woodwork calling the poster a liar and challenging their statements. You have been here long enough to know this. So why if there is false information presented which shows programs in a bad light then it is somehow acceptable and if I point this out then I am automatically a defender of programs and must be getting kickbacks or getting paid.
The reason I believe you don’t see this is because you were in 9 programs and your judgment is clouded and you cannot be objective or fair. If someone states they were abused at HLA you take it face value. If someone says they had a daughter who was helped by a program then they must be an imaginary daughter because this is not something you can comprehend. If you look a little closer at it I am the one who is BETTER able to look at both sides of the industry and see the good as well as the bad where you are not capable of a fair view. You have been damaged by the industry and therefore cannot be objective.
So the more pressing question would be why are you still here? What value can you add by your presence? How can you assess the truth and work to get it to the top and expose the corrupt areas?
Just saw this... I already addressed in my first post why I am here. To expose people like you who feed their own agendas and to prevent what has happend to me from happening to any other terrified teenager.
And you logic here is.... Because I was damaged by a program I can't be objective on whether or not it was damaging? Are you kidding me? I am nothing but living fucking proof, along with every other student who has spoken out, that - wait I forgot - oh yeah... HLA IS DAMAGING.
So yea, I would say so. I might have a little better understanding than someone who say, has never been through it.
I don't need statistics, Who. I am the fucking statistic.
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That was certainly the logic you were employing when you made the statement that by HLA harrassing me (again, your words) they gave me the tools necessary to deal with a hypothetical future rape. So how is that different from "Hidden Lake helped me by harrassing/abusing me..."?
No it wasn’t. The kids that were raped by their teacher in public school didn’t help them at all to prepare for the future but that doesn’t mean public schools dont prepare kids for the future. Do you see what I mean? The harassment doesn’t better prepare people for future events. Its just aggravating.
I have seen kids who have went to programs and those who haven’t and the ones who have bounce back quicker and are better able to handle what life throws at them a little better (post program)
Your argument that not all programs are bad... I was not addressing all programs. I was adressing this one, the forum that we're in, the conversation we've been having - Hidden Lake Academy. You are once again obscuring the issue at hand that HIDDEN LAKE is corrupt, by countering with "Oh, well not ALL programs are bad." You did not answer my questions, or even stay on topic.
Hmmm.. okay.. your last previous post (I believe) you stated “So you tell me. Who has the better view of the industry? Would it be you, who devotes a measly hour or two a day to coming onto a website to troll and protect whatever it is your interest is in this... Or would it be someone who for years on end is forcibly subjected to every aspect of the behavioral modification industry”
You were speaking of the industry in general. I believe I have a better view and a more objective and less bias view then you do because you have been damaged by the industry and therefore are biased. For example if you were permanently damaged by a chiropractor and were posting on a website heavily posted by anti chiropractors trying to convince everyone what a sham they are you would have credibility talking about the chiropractor that you saw. You would know their names, their costs, their faces. You would know which ones were abusive towards you if any etc. But you wouldn’t know much about the industry itself and probably wouldn’t want to hear about how chiropractors help other people because you want them all shut down. So you would be closed minded and biased against chiropractors.
I on the other hand am not. I clearly see there are good ones and bad ones and recognize the repercussions of both.
That being said, you know more about the ins and outs of HLA. As I have stated I am not familiar with their model. If you were abused by some people there it doesn’t mean everyone was abused or every program abuses people.
I hope this clears up the confussion.
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You're being trolled, Lacey. Whatever words you were going to waste on it, send something to the ORS instead, or possibly an organization in Georgia that doesn't give a fuck about Len Buccellato's supposed clout.
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You still havent answered her question John.
How did her being harrassed by HLA better prepare her to deal with hypothetical rapes?
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You're being trolled, Lacey. Whatever words you were going to waste on it, send something to the ORS instead, or possibly an organization in Georgia that doesn't give a fuck about Len Buccellato's supposed clout.
Actually Lacey was the one trolling. Switching the subject, misquoting, the use of ad hominems, dismissing peoples thoughts and point of view, putting words in peoples mouths, twisting words to meet her Personal agenda. To name a few. Classic troll behavior.
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You're being trolled, Lacey. Whatever words you were going to waste on it, send something to the ORS instead, or possibly an organization in Georgia that doesn't give a fuck about Len Buccellato's supposed clout.
Actually Lacey was the one trolling. Switching the subject, misquoting, the use of ad hominems, dismissing peoples thoughts and point of view, putting words in peoples mouths, twisting words to meet her Personal agenda. To name a few. Classic troll behavior.
Fail ^ You haven't got any credibility to pull that one off, troll. She bitched your ass. You can deny it, but you can't hide it.
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You're being trolled, Lacey. Whatever words you were going to waste on it, send something to the ORS instead, or possibly an organization in Georgia that doesn't give a fuck about Len Buccellato's supposed clout.
Troll offers "helpful advice" because it can't sit down long enough to type up lies to cover it's sore ass.
Speak out and Truth will prevail.
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You still havent answered her question John.
How did her being harrassed by HLA better prepare her to deal with hypothetical rapes?
It's applying tuck's medicated relief pads and trying to think at the same time.
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You're being trolled, Lacey. Whatever words you were going to waste on it, send something to the ORS instead, or possibly an organization in Georgia that doesn't give a fuck about Len Buccellato's supposed clout.
Actually Lacey was the one trolling. Switching the subject, misquoting, the use of ad hominems, dismissing peoples thoughts and point of view, putting words in peoples mouths, twisting words to meet her Personal agenda. To name a few. Classic troll behavior.
Fail ^ You haven't got any credibility to pull that one off, troll. She bitched your ass. You can deny it, but you can't hide it.
Fuck you!! I wrote that :flame:
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You still havent answered her question John.
How did her being harrassed by HLA better prepare her to deal with hypothetical rapes?
It's applying tuck's medicated relief pads and trying to think at the same time.
We're waiting for an answer to this, John Reuben.
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You're being trolled, Lacey. Whatever words you were going to waste on it, send something to the ORS instead, or possibly an organization in Georgia that doesn't give a fuck about Len Buccellato's supposed clout.
Actually Lacey was the one trolling. Switching the subject, misquoting, the use of ad hominems, dismissing peoples thoughts and point of view, putting words in peoples mouths, twisting words to meet her Personal agenda. To name a few. Classic troll behavior.
Fail ^ You haven't got any credibility to pull that one off, troll. She bitched your ass. You can deny it, but you can't hide it.
Fuck you!! I wrote that :flame:
We know you did Rueben, stay on topic and answer the question. You brought it up.
You still havent answered her question John.
How did her being harrassed by HLA better prepare her to deal with hypothetical rapes?
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Now we have Bruce talking about hypothetical rapes. So Bruce assumes she was raped but its not an actual fact? Are you saying Lacey was lying about her rape tsk,tsk. Bruce, you should be working on getting your credibility and having your guest post (or is that hypothetical posts lol) strung together not dimissing survivors stories. Bruce is still running away from it. I wonder why? Hmmm.
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You really need to get a life - apparently all that jogging has affected your cranium...
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Stay on topic program pusher
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Stay on topic program pusher
Thanks guest , the trolls are out in full force.
If you read back you will see that Lacey never said her stay at HLA helped her with her rape (at least I couldnt find where she stated that). You would have to ask her if the program helped her get through it or not. What I said is that kids that attend programs fair much better with what life has to throw at them then before the program (and better than kids who never attended a program). So if Laceys raped occurred post program she would be better equipped to handle it emotionally then if it occurred before the program. The programs teach you that you are in control of your own life and that you can make of it what you want. You don’t need input from others or approval from others to succeed. Kids mature and grow emotionally at a much faster rate during their time there and learn a great deal about themselves. This inner strength allows them to more easily fight off some of the rough patches along the way. Those of you who have completed the program know what I am talking about. Anyone who has ever worked in a crisis center knows how traumatic a rape or personal violation/abuse can be on a person especially a young person.
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Stay on topic program pusher
She never mentioned any rape. You're the one that specifically brought a hypothetical rape in the future in to your twisted commentary.
John, that's an understandable one for you to try and backpedal away from. You can't.
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Stay on topic program pusher
She never mentioned any rape. You're the one that specifically brought a hypothetical rape in the future in to your twisted commentary.
John, that's an understandable one for you to try and backpedal away from. You can't.
If you think I am the one who brought it up then show me the post and we can examine it. I stand behind what I say.
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...while it's in the middle of the quote...
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Read what you wrote. I know you write a lot of shit and it stinks to have to slog you're way through it. Hint boldunderlinedlarge
Wanna see it in technicolor?
Stay on the topic you raised of how you think these programs help kids hypothetical future rapes with humiliation and degradation.
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I already responded to that Response (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=339758&sid=33202d7dea3bd24653d4a08c9f16d113&sid=33202d7dea3bd24653d4a08c9f16d113#p339758)
If you read back you will see that Lacey never said her stay at HLA helped her with her rape (at least I couldnt find where she stated that). You would have to ask her if the program helped her get through it or not. What I said is that kids that attend programs fair much better with what life has to throw at them then before the program (and better than kids who never attended a program). So if Laceys raped occurred post program she would be better equipped to handle it emotionally then if it occurred before the program. The programs teach you that you are in control of your own life and that you can make of it what you want. You don’t need input from others or approval from others to succeed. Kids mature and grow emotionally at a much faster rate during their time there and learn a great deal about themselves. This inner strength allows them to more easily fight off some of the rough patches along the way. Those of you who have completed the program know what I am talking about. Anyone who has ever worked in a crisis center knows how traumatic a rape or personal violation/abuse can be on a person especially a young person.
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Stay on topic program pusher
She never mentioned any rape. You're the one that specifically brought a hypothetical rape in the future in to your twisted commentary.
John, that's an understandable one for you to try and backpedal away from. You can't.
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I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand.
[/size]
Yes,I wrote that and Yes, I do believe that kids are better prepared for what life throws at them post program. I think that you keep missing the response. I stand behind what I say. If this isnt the answer you like then write your own and sign it "theWho" . It works well for other people, give it a try.
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Care to explore in depth the fact that you posted your shitty commentary following her testimonial about the humiliating and degrading abuse inflicted on kids regarding their trauma history?
Or (since you’re rearing up on you hind legs and all)…the part where yet again you try to imply that another survivor is lying when they speak out about abusive treatment in programs.
hint it's right after the bold underlined brightly colored hypothetical rape in your quote
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being in a program in no way helps people through rough patches later on. In fact, programs focus on and imbue a sense of powerlessness if absent a strong authority, or under fire by an authority figure. it's almost clockwork orange-like. HLA really drives in the notion that one is powerless to change oneself and must rely on a higher power; that higher power psychologically imprinted into HLA student's minds as being HLA itself. Through tactical use of the restrictions and fallout systems, the notion that HLA is god himself is subconsciously imprinted into every kid's mind. HLA becomes a force which controls every aspect of the kid's life; please it and you will be rewarded, anger it and you will be punished, and sometimes just as with the real god, you are subject to random acts of cruelty.
one of the lasting effects of programs is chronic psychological damage. PTSD and related anxiety disorders seem to be most common, followed by depression induced by program-connotated triggers.
Some of my friends from the program have developed serious issues with anxiety directly as a result of their experiences at HLA. anytime they are put into a position of powerlessness e.g being yelled at by someone bigger or more powerful than they are, or when doing something an authority figure disapproves of, they break down into an extremely paranoid and anxious state. one kid i know even has an ulcer developed almost entirely from constant, baseless fear and paranoia imprinted into his mind at HLA.
quite a few people i know cannot function independently. they require constant attention and routine along with a strong authority presence in their lives. without it, they kinda wallow around drinking and doing drugs like russians after the fall of communism.
so your point about kids being more in control of their own lives as a result of the program is mute. They may have a tougher skin as far as their ability to withstand abuse; they are masters of "checking out" - they did so for 18 months - but they are most definitely not better off.
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Stay on topic program pusher
She never mentioned any rape. You're the one that specifically brought a hypothetical rape in the future in to your twisted commentary.
John, that's an understandable one for you to try and backpedal away from. You can't.
or you could go back to "warning her into silence about the possibility of being trolled
We all know thewho the hell you are John.
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Care to explore in depth the fact that you posted your shitty commentary following her testimonial about the humiliating and degrading abuse inflicted on kids regarding their trauma history?
Or (since you’re rearing up on you hind legs and all)…the part where yet again you try to imply that another survivor is lying when they speak out about abusive treatment in programs.
hint it's right after the bold underlined brightly colored hypothetical rape in your quote
The problem is you jumped into the middle of a conversation and are trying to make sense of it. Read the posts leading up to it try to grasp what we were talking about. Everyone else who followed along understands.
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being in a program in no way helps people through rough patches later on. In fact, programs focus on and imbue a sense of powerlessness if absent a strong authority, or under fire by an authority figure. it's almost clockwork orange-like. HLA really drives in the notion that one is powerless to change oneself and must rely on a higher power; that higher power psychologically imprinted into HLA student's minds as being HLA itself. Through tactical use of the restrictions and fallout systems, the notion that HLA is god himself is subconsciously imprinted into every kid's mind. HLA becomes a force which controls every aspect of the kid's life; please it and you will be rewarded, anger it and you will be punished, and sometimes just as with the real god, you are subject to random acts of cruelty.
one of the lasting effects of programs is chronic psychological damage. PTSD and related anxiety disorders seem to be most common, followed by depression induced by program-connotated triggers...
Some of my friends from the program have developed serious issues with anxiety directly as a result of their experiences at HLA. anytime they are put into a position of powerlessness e.g being yelled at by someone bigger or more powerful than they are, or when doing something an authority figure disapproves of, they break down into an extremely paranoid and anxious state. one kid i know even has an ulcer developed almost entirely from constant, baseless fear and paranoia imprinted into his mind at HLA.
Well at least this portion is based on a true story.
quite a few people i know cannot function independently. they require constant attention and routine along with a strong authority presence in their lives. without it, they kinda wallow around drinking and doing drugs like russians after the fall of communism.
so your point about kids being more in control of their own lives as a result of the program is mute. They may have a tougher skin as far as their ability to withstand abuse; they are masters of "checking out" - they did so for 18 months - but they are most definitely not better off.
Cognitive dissonance
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Care to explore in depth the fact that you posted your shitty commentary following her testimonial about the humiliating and degrading abuse inflicted on kids regarding their trauma history?
Or (since you’re rearing up on you hind legs and all)…the part where yet again you try to imply that another survivor is lying when they speak out about abusive treatment in programs.
hint it's right after the bold underlined brightly colored hypothetical rape in your quote
The problem is you jumped into the middle of a conversation and are trying to make sense of it. Read the posts leading up to it try to grasp what we were talking about. Everyone else who followed along understands.
John, you're being followed on this.
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Youre not buying it because you have never talked to a program graduate five years down the line. (save the brainwashed goody-two-shoes church freaks, choir boys and army brats; who you do not have the intellectual capacity to perceive would not be doing well if they were not churchheads or in the army)
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So Lacey, I think it is awful that that had to happen to you. I do not condone that treatment. I dont think all schools would do the same thing and I actually know they would not. I dont condone harassment. I do believethat if the rape occured post program you would be in a stronger position to deal with it then you were before hand. But you cannot honestly believe that spreading or allowing the spread of misinformation is going to have any long term lasting effect against these places. They need to be exposed for what they are and back it all up with facts and data. If you try to fool people with lies then the whole site loses its credibility.
Okay thewho or John. How do you explain this post? You failed to answer how going to HLA helped Lacey deal with her rape.
Stay on topic program pusher
She never mentioned any rape. You're the one that specifically brought a hypothetical rape in the future in to your twisted commentary.
John, that's an understandable one for you to try and backpedal away from. You can't.
or you could go back to "warning" her into silence about the possibility of being trolled
We all know thewho the hell you are John.
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So I take it you didnt go back to read where we were also talking about the spread of misinformation and how people here dont do enough to stop it. It doesnt appear you have. Look, if you cant follow along dont expect everyone to clue you in. I cant go line by line explaining the thoughts behind each word. Go back and reread the thread, then rephrase your question.
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I guess quest is bored with you.Ice your ass whooter and get ready for another round RB will come for you soon enough.
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That's because the only misinformation being spread here, is by you. And you're the only one dumb enough to believe it. Or havent you noticed you still have no supporters?
You've been caught under the hot lamps and it's funny to watch you try and squirm your way out of it. Sorry John, we're not letting you off the hook.
Stay focused this time.
You claimed Lacey's experiences while incarcerated at HLA would have better prepared her for a hypothetical rape. Her question from the beginning to you has been; how?
We aren't talking about other programs, or even programs in general. We aren't talking about public school versus the PTS, we are talking soley about HLA.
How does Lacey sitting in a room, surrounded by strangers, being forced to tell a recount a horrific incident over and over again help her? How does it help that if she doesnt want to talk about it she's punished until she does? How does it help in the moment and how does it help her cope with hypothetical future situations?
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I guess quest is bored with you.Ice your ass whooter and get ready for another round RB will come for you soon enough.
Sorry, RB is on ice until he gets honest and revels his guest posts. He will have to stay in the shadows and try to guest post until then. Its good to see you read thru the thread.
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Quit your squirming whoot ...and cut back on the red meat stink ass
That's because the only misinformation being spread here, is by you. And you're the only one dumb enough to believe it. Or havent you noticed you still have no supporters?
You've been caught under the hot lamps and it's funny to watch you try and squirm your way out of it. Sorry John, we're not letting you off the hook.
Stay focused this time.
You claimed Lacey's experiences while incarcerated at HLA would have better prepared her for a hypothetical rape. Her question from the beginning to you has been; how?
We aren't talking about other programs, or even programs in general. We aren't talking about public school versus the PTS, we are talking soley about HLA.
How does Lacey sitting in a room, surrounded by strangers, being forced to tell a recount a horrific incident over and over again help her? How does it help that if she doesnt want to talk about it she's punished until she does? How does it help in the moment and how does it help her cope with hypothetical future situations?
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So I take it you didnt go back to read where we were also talking about the spread of misinformation and how people here dont do enough to stop it. It doesnt appear you have. Look, if you cant follow along dont expect everyone to clue you in. I cant go line by line explaining the thoughts behind each word. Go back and reread the thread, then rephrase your question.
Yes I read it. You are being trolled by Bruce again. Lets move on. So tell me thewho what does sending your kid to ASR have to do with HLA? and stay on topic this time.
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No John, we're still waiting on you. Now man up and answer Lacey's question.
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Who, you're arguing about everything under the sun, once again skirting the original issue. You've now argued with a bunch of guests, ask Bruce to link his posts, and called me a troll for recounting my experience at Hidden Lake. But were all still waiting on the answer to the original question from like six pages ago. Care to take a stab?
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Who, you're arguing about everything under the sun, once again skirting the original issue.
I have answered all the questions that you asked, I believe. But I will go back and look.
You've now argued with a bunch of guests,
I typically do that. Not everyone has a log in, including myself.
ask Bruce to link his posts,
I did and he is still running from that. I just keep reminding him.
and called me a troll for recounting my experience at Hidden Lake.
That I dont recall and doubt I called you a troll for that. But I have been called a troll for talking about my daughters' and my experiences also. Its one of the risks of posting here on fornits.
But were all still waiting on the answer to the original question from like six pages ago. Care to take a stab?
I will go back and see if there are any open questions which I didnt address but I am sure I answered them all.
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You're being trolled, Lacey. Whatever words you were going to waste on it, send something to the ORS instead, or possibly an organization in Georgia that doesn't give a fuck about Len Buccellato's supposed clout.
Actually Lacey was the one trolling. Switching the subject, misquoting, the use of ad hominems, dismissing peoples thoughts and point of view, putting words in peoples mouths, twisting words to meet her Personal agenda. To name a few. Classic troll behavior.
Let me refresh your memory.
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Lacy: Some of these seemed sarcastic to me so I didn’t rely. But here are the ones I believe I passed over:
So we should rape/abuse children so that they'd be prepared for those very events?
No
Is that the argument that you're trying to make?
No
That because I was abused at Hidden Lake that it would help prepare me for future abuse?
No
Is that truly the precident that you'd like to be setting?
I dont think that abuse can make anyone stronger, is damaging and illegal. What I believe my point was is that the high structure of a program allows the kids to feel safe and gives them time to focus on themselves and find out who they are... what is important and what is unimportant in their life. They can reflect on the events that lead them there and give them time to deal with them. The program takes away their idle time and replaces it with more construct use of their time, gets them back to school and back to the books etc. All of these things leads to a stronger, more mature and more self confident individual post program.
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Actually Lacey was the one trolling. Switching the subject, misquoting, the use of ad hominems, dismissing peoples thoughts and point of view, putting words in peoples mouths, twisting words to meet her Personal agenda. To name a few. Classic troll behavior.
Ah yes, I remember. You were trolling me. Ha,Ha,Ha, Calling my daughter imaginary, saying I thought abuse helped people.. I dont remember the details but you were using the sharp stick.
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I dont think that abuse can make anyone stronger, is damaging and illegal. What I believe my point was is that the high structure of a program allows the kids to feel safe and gives them time to focus on themselves and find out who they are... what is important and what is unimportant in their life. They can reflect on the events that lead them there and give them time to deal with them. The program takes away their idle time and replaces it with more construct use of their time, gets them back to school and back to the books etc. All of these things leads to a stronger, more mature and more self confident individual post program.
you are quite wrong.
because of the structure, they never figure out who they are and what they want to do independently. they are always told what to do and what to think, forced into a mold and shat out. when the kids leave they either seek further structure through the armed forces, church activities, starting a family waaaaay too early, etc; or they turn into derelicts who dont know what to do with themselves so they drink and do drugs. Most of the derelicts only clean up and start a life once they abandon every shred of memory they have of the place.
the way you make more mature self confident individual is through supportive parenting and schooling that allows the individual to choose for themselves and make their own mistakes.
it's the same concept behind critical thinking v.s fact-based memory intensive education. critical thinkers always win over the memorizers in life.
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I dont think that abuse can make anyone stronger, is damaging and illegal. What I believe my point was is that the high structure of a program allows the kids to feel safe and gives them time to focus on themselves and find out who they are... what is important and what is unimportant in their life. They can reflect on the events that lead them there and give them time to deal with them. The program takes away their idle time and replaces it with more construct use of their time, gets them back to school and back to the books etc. All of these things leads to a stronger, more mature and more self confident individual post program.
you are quite wrong.
because of the structure, they never figure out who they are and what they want to do independently. they are always told what to do and what to think, forced into a mold and shat out. when the kids leave they either seek further structure through the armed forces, church activities, starting a family waaaaay too early, etc; or they turn into derelicts who dont know what to do with themselves so they drink and do drugs. Most of the derelicts only clean up and start a life once they abandon every shred of memory they have of the place.
the way you make more mature self confident individual is through supportive parenting and schooling that allows the individual to choose for themselves and make their own mistakes.
it's the same concept behind critical thinking v.s fact-based memory intensive education. critical thinkers always win over the memorizers in life.
Well, I see your point and no one can argue that there isn’t a better substitute for a stable family life and supportive parents. But when this doesn’t work you need to reach outside the family and seek counselling to help repair any damage that was done or to help the child live within the Family unit. If this is done soon enough counselling is highly effective along with the right family life adjustments to help the child continue on. But in some cases this doesn’t work and the child still heads down a dangerous path and continues an at-risk life style. In this case a parent can intervene or let the child continue the downward spiral. The programs take the child and give him or her structure.. get them the education and tools the child needs and sets them back on a healthy path. Sometimes the child continues down the healthy path and other times the child will go right back to they way he was going. So programs are a last resort and are not 100% effective but for those who can afford it it is the next best thing after all local options have been exhausted.
On a previous thought I think left to their own path many of these kids are heading towards a military life or living in the streets anyway.
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in theory, all that you say sounds just fine and dandy.
in practice, it doesnt work.
why? because the level and type of structure at these schools is not SUPPORTIVE, it's OPPRESSIVE. HLA restricts independent thought, speech, and actions. it tries to obliterate any sense of individuality the kid might have, and attempts to mold them into a "Prep" kid. Structure is OK when the individual can do as they please within the framework of the structure. HLA doesnt just provide a framework, they provide an entire identity and force the kids into that.
also parents dont use these programs as a last resort. oftentimes kids get sent away because they just turned 14 and just began experimenting with sex and drugs, and just once was too much for their parents. i got sent away because my mom caught me wake&baking before school ONCE - a week later i was in georgia. i smoked more weed on a weekly basis after leaving the program than i did my entire life before the program. I simply didnt even have the cash on hand to get started on a drug addiction, not to mention an actual "downward spiral". as a matter of fact, most of the kids i knew at HLA were there way before they even started on their downward spiral. they only had the potential of slipping into one in the near future, and their parents were just too scared, ashamed, lazy or stupid to deal with it themselves. These schools are not a necessary evil to help parents with troubled kids as a last resort; programs are just an easy way out for busy, rich, lazy, scared, ashamed, stupid and gullible parents.
also, given the first step of AA is true - that admitting you have a problem is the first step...how could forcing someone into treatment work? especially if rationally the individual does not have a problem; yet is considered to have one just because they smoked a few joints in their life? every AA member knows it's a personal choice to get sober. you cant force someone into it. whether it takes a month or two decades for a teenager to clean up and emerge from a downward spiral doesnt matter, it's all their own choice. no program will change that. only two things can cut short an addiction: a personal choice to do so, or a complete removal of the drugs from the individual's reality (impossible). when it comes to problems like bullemia or self-harm, the issue usually lies with the parents not the kids; in those cases it's often the parents that need to get therapy, not the kids.
and it's perfectly ok if the kids were originally destined for the millitary or streets. at least then they did it to themselves, and it wasn't an institution that screwed them up. I know dozens of kids who were brilliant independent thinkers when they arrived, and turned into robotic marine candidates by the time they left.
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Some thoughts .....First I think there should be a requirement that a child advocate needs to sign off on any placement. An advocate could be a school counsellor or childs therapist. Second there should be evidence that the family has exhausted all local options. Third the child should be evaluated by an independent party (hospital) prior to placement. Forth the parents need to choose a program which is suitable for their child. The forth one is tough because although there are plenty of good programs there are also bad ones and it is almost impossible for a parent who is new to this to tell the difference. Edcons basically work for the industry so they are a risk... so it is difficult to find the right placement unless the childs therapist or hospital gets involved in the recommendation process.
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John it's been two days. When will you answer Lacey's question? We're all still waiting on you. Don't wander off in generalizations or programs at large, answer her question pertaining to HLA. How did her harrassment at HLA better prepare her for hypothetical future rapes?
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Some thoughts .....First I think there should be a requirement that a child advocate needs to sign off on any placement. An advocate could be a school counsellor or childs therapist. Second there should be evidence that the family has exhausted all local options. Third the child should be evaluated by an independent party (hospital) prior to placement. Forth the parents need to choose a program which is suitable for their child. The forth one is tough because although there are plenty of good programs there are also bad ones and it is almost impossible for a parent who is new to this to tell the difference. Edcons basically work for the industry so they are a risk... so it is difficult to find the right placement unless the childs therapist or hospital gets involved in the recommendation process.
True, that would severely cut down on some of the placements but wouldnt do anything to shut down the programs which are ineffective and abusive. That is still an issue.
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Some thoughts .....First I think there should be a requirement that a child advocate needs to sign off on any placement. An advocate could be a school counsellor or childs therapist.
your perfect world scenarios are sooo........cute. pity the world isnt perfect and what you say wont change anything.
school counselors do what is better for the whole school. havnt you ever heard of schools requiring parents to choose between putting the child on medication or changing schools? it happens in public schools as much as private schools.
child therapists often do only what their paycheck tells them. parents want kid out - they pay therapist to write this and that - kid gets sent to program. also therapists can be biased, and many of them have very limited experience with long term patients.
hospitals? hospitals are not benevolent institutions. they have budgets. havnt you ever heard of doctors refusing treatment to drug addicts purely on a moral basis? or how about homeless dumping? the hospital will say what is most convenient for the hospital, not the child. and in most cases, making the kid not the hospital's or municipalities' problem is more convenient. that equals an automatic goahead for program placement.
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Many programs, HLA included pretend to do this already. It adds nothing. HLA went so far as to claim any signature will do. When I was incarcerated my own doctor refused to sign off on the form. He did however type up a note which he signed stating that he felt placement for me in such a facility was reactionary, extreme and ill advised. He made mention of there being zero evidence of the effectiveness of the program and that he refused to recommend my placement. HLA intake staff received the note and later claimed, "Well he signed his letter, so that meets our criteria."
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Some thoughts .....First I think there should be a requirement that a child advocate needs to sign off on any placement. An advocate could be a school counsellor or childs therapist.
your perfect world scenarios are sooo........cute. pity the world isnt perfect and what you say wont change anything.
school counselors do what is better for the whole school. havnt you ever heard of schools requiring parents to choose between putting the child on medication or changing schools? it happens in public schools as much as private schools.
child therapists often do only what their paycheck tells them. parents want kid out - they pay therapist to write this and that - kid gets sent to program. also therapists can be biased, and many of them have very limited experience with long term patients.
hospitals? hospitals are not benevolent institutions. they have budgets. havnt you ever heard of doctors refusing treatment to drug addicts purely on a moral basis? or how about homeless dumping? the hospital will say what is most convenient for the hospital, not the child. and in most cases, making the kid not the hospital's or municipalities' problem is more convenient. that equals an automatic goahead for program placement.
I never said it was perfect but the added checks and balances would help to screen out the kids who didn’t need to be there. Sure there will be therapists and parents who get by the security checks but its going to happen anyway. All I am saying is make it as important as any other procedure. Like today you cant just walk into a hospital and say I want my kid to have a hernia operation this morning. You need to see the kids primary physician who then refers him to a hernia specialist who then recommends treatment. There are many types of procedures for hernia operations and some are non evasive so this would dramatically cut down on unnecessary placements (operations). Maybe the hernia isnt severe enough yet to warrant surgery... etc.
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well you are lucky.
i've had a therapist who claimed to be an admirer of len buccelato.
i've had doctors tell me the wont see me because i smoke cigarettes.
i've had my school tell my mother: "put him on some ritalin, or we will expel him."
i've had one ignorant doctor even tell me (this was outside of HLA, in a liberal area of a liberal northeast state, and i'm really not kidding): "smoking pot will kill you one day. here, have some lexapro and xanax, take this instead of smoking marijuana and it will help you. in the meantime, check into a rehab or go to meetings, or you will be deadinsaneorinjail one day". he even called my mom after looking her number up through the insurance company and asked her if she knew i smoked pot, and that i should be in rehab for it. Im 25 and smoke roughly once a week to deal with anxiety.
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well you are lucky.
i've had a therapist who claimed to be an admirer of len buccelato.
i've had doctors tell me the wont see me because i smoke cigarettes.
i've had my school tell my mother: "put him on some ritalin, or we will expel him."
i've had one ignorant doctor even tell me (this was outside of HLA, in a liberal area of a liberal northeast state, and i'm really not kidding): "smoking pot will kill you one day. here, have some lexapro and xanax, take this instead of smoking marijuana and it will help you. in the meantime, check into a rehab or go to meetings, or you will be deadinsaneorinjail one day". he even called my mom after looking her number up through the insurance company and asked her if she knew i smoked pot, and that i should be in rehab for it. Im 25 and smoke roughly once a week to deal with anxiety.
FML!
(stands for Fuck My Life...www.fmylife.com)
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in theory, all that you say sounds just fine and dandy.
in practice, it doesnt work.
why? because the level and type of structure at these schools is not SUPPORTIVE, it's OPPRESSIVE. HLA restricts independent thought, speech, and actions. it tries to obliterate any sense of individuality the kid might have, and attempts to mold them into a "Prep" kid. Structure is OK when the individual can do as they please within the framework of the structure. HLA doesnt just provide a framework, they provide an entire identity and force the kids into that.
also parents dont use these programs as a last resort. oftentimes kids get sent away because they just turned 14 and just began experimenting with sex and drugs, and just once was too much for their parents. i got sent away because my mom caught me wake&baking before school ONCE - a week later i was in georgia. i smoked more weed on a weekly basis after leaving the program than i did my entire life before the program. I simply didnt even have the cash on hand to get started on a drug addiction, not to mention an actual "downward spiral". as a matter of fact, most of the kids i knew at HLA were there way before they even started on their downward spiral. they only had the potential of slipping into one in the near future, and their parents were just too scared, ashamed, lazy or stupid to deal with it themselves. These schools are not a necessary evil to help parents with troubled kids as a last resort; programs are just an easy way out for busy, rich, lazy, scared, ashamed, stupid and gullible parents.
also, given the first step of AA is true - that admitting you have a problem is the first step...how could forcing someone into treatment work? especially if rationally the individual does not have a problem; yet is considered to have one just because they smoked a few joints in their life? every AA member knows it's a personal choice to get sober. you cant force someone into it. whether it takes a month or two decades for a teenager to clean up and emerge from a downward spiral doesnt matter, it's all their own choice. no program will change that. only two things can cut short an addiction: a personal choice to do so, or a complete removal of the drugs from the individual's reality (impossible). when it comes to problems like bullemia or self-harm, the issue usually lies with the parents not the kids; in those cases it's often the parents that need to get therapy, not the kids.
and it's perfectly ok if the kids were originally destined for the millitary or streets. at least then they did it to themselves, and it wasn't an institution that screwed them up. I know dozens of kids who were brilliant independent thinkers when they arrived, and turned into robotic marine candidates by the time they left.
These posts are better than arguing with theWho. Can you elaborate on this gulag some more? Were you allowed to contact the outside world, for example? How was Hidden Lake Academy structured--a heirarchy with "reformed" detainees granted authority over lower ranking ones, for example? Was group "therapy" forced? What were the punishments if you didn't say what they wanted you to day in "therapy" "?Explain HLA to people who don't understand what it was like. Thank you.
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These posts are better than arguing with theWho. Can you elaborate on this gulag some more? Were you allowed to contact the outside world, for example? How was Hidden Lake Academy structured--a heirarchy with "reformed" detainees granted authority over lower ranking ones, for example? Was group "therapy" forced? What were the punishments if you didn't say what they wanted you to day in "therapy" "?Explain HLA to people who don't understand what it was like. Thank you.
im not going to explain HLA to you. explaining HLA would involve writing a three-volume book, something i dont have time for. you are better off sorting through different posts. or maybe i'll string some together sometime soon.
i can answer your specific questions though:
Contact: you were allowed to talk to your parents once a week for up to 20 min, always supervised, often on conference call w/ counselors. letters were allowed at first only to parents, then as the program moves on you can send letters to your extended family, and near the end of the program, your freinds. all letters to family are censored by counselors, all letters to friends are censored by counselors and then parents. we were allowed to watch TV, although usually the kids picked sports. we were only allowed approved magazines and newspapers (anything overly liberal, pro-life, pro-homosexual, pro-drug, sexual or conspiratorial was not allowed). all approved magazines, newspapers, and books were checked by staff and anything not approved would be torn out. there was no internet connection, students are forbidden from accessing the internet both at school and when they go home on vacation. There were supervised trips to AA meetings, community service, amusement parks, and movie theaters.
Hierarchy: staff ruled everything. there were student "positives" that were supposed to "help" the newcomers by being nice and supportive and showing the ropes. students had no power over each other; other than through group punishment. If you were on restrictions and one kid acts up, the entire restriction group is punished with PT (physical training - lots of push ups and sit ups). There was also a minor unspoken hierarchy: some students held more sway with the staff and therefore had more power over other students. there were dorm heads who assigned chores like vacuming, mopping, etc to kids. there were also "honor" groups like phoenix and STARS that were given more priviliges and more trust. that meant that if they tattle on you, even if they are lying, the counselors will always believe them over you. this gave them quite a bit of power - although to be in phoenix or stars you had to be a goody-two-shoes anyway and most of those kids didnt abuse their power. they were just nice.
therapy: it was forced. if you disagree, you go on restrictions. Thats when from the second school ends to the time you go to bed, and all day on the weekends. You stand in line all day and march around. you are forbidden from speaking. if you speak, you either do pushups or you have to carry a rock over your head all day. if that rock falls below your eyebrows, you do pushups and carry the rock for another day. if you keep speaking, they make the whole group do PT. sometimes you do PT anyway - in the mud, the rain, in the heat, in snow, freezing rain, lightning storms, doesnt matter. you walk around and clean up trash all day. you create trails, repair and pave roads, make ditches, do landscaping, cut trees and clear forest, build diversions for the stream, haul dirty laundry, basically any work HLA needs done on the property. if the counselors are feeling nice that day you might be lucky enough to be able to sit inside all day studying or reading a book. also, the person running restrictions for a while was a wannabe drill instructor who treated the kids like cadets and yelled at them till he lost his voice or the kid broke down crying.
there were other punishments too: zaps were for minor offenses, you had to walk around the lake during your dorm time. work assignments, you had to join restrictions for just an hour or two. if you really broke the rules they send you to ridge creek. thats a whole different story.
ask specific question, and you will get specific answers. i'm not going to write you a novel.
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http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title ... ke_Academy (http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Hidden_Lake_Academy)
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It sounds like not much has changed. More proof that Buchi has no interest in improving things. Do they still do "interventions" where a kid who really isnt interested in hack therapy is sent out into the woods with a lack of adequte suppplies for an indefinite period?
Do they still do writing assignments while on restrictions. Essentially forcing kids to cop to whatever it is they're being punished for and keeping them on restrictions till they do? I hear they finally did away with the starvation diet they kept us on while on restrictions. At least that's something. Do they still do "fall outs" where you're forced to tell on yourself and others until the counselors hear what they want to hear? I once had a session go on till 3 am.
I've yet to hear how coerced therapy ever helps anyone.
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Thanks Koo Koo, thats was a very detailed account of HLA. What was the food like when you were there? Were there any kids seeing a therapist one on one? Would you say there was a lot of drugs smuggled in? Could you sneak away and smoke at all? Did kids tend to gain weight or lose weight?
Thanks in advance for answering.
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It sounds like not much has changed. More proof that Buchi has no interest in improving things. Do they still do "interventions" where a kid who really isnt interested in hack therapy is sent out into the woods with a lack of adequte suppplies for an indefinite period?
Do they still do writing assignments while on restrictions. Essentially forcing kids to cop to whatever it is they're being punished for and keeping them on restrictions till they do? I hear they finally did away with the starvation diet they kept us on while on restrictions. At least that's something. Do they still do "fall outs" where you're forced to tell on yourself and others until the counselors hear what they want to hear? I once had a session go on till 3 am.
I've yet to hear how coerced therapy ever helps anyone.
interventions, i dont know about. when i was there from 05'-07 they did a few, i was never on once. if you really mess up they send you on an intervention.
writing assignments, fallout, yes. always. thats a central part of their system.
Thanks Koo Koo, thats was a very detailed account of HLA. What was the food like when you were there? Were there any kids seeing a therapist one on one? Would you say there was a lot of drugs smuggled in? Could you sneak away and smoke at all? Did kids tend to gain weight or lose weight?/quote]
Food: all sysco. there was cafeteria where a few very disgusting hicks working there with such thick georgia accents that unless you were from there, you could not undertand them. there is usually 3 main hot dishes - a veggie or carb, and one or two meats, and a vegetarian option. theres also soup made out of the week's leftovers, a salad bar, and a sandwitch bar with tyson coldcuts and wonderbread. the food wasnt horrible, it was just bad. not tasty and cheap quality, like prison food, despite the options. they made alot of generic prison stuff: chunked and formed salsbury steak, BBQ pork, corn dogs, fake mashed potatoes, pork chops, etc. they do not have a kosher or hallal option. although they may feed you enough actual food, the food itself is horrible - very low quality generic institution food. it's also known for causing exessive gas in.....everyone. If you were on an intervention or at ridge creek, they fed you army MREs and sometimes cold cafeteria leftovers.
therapist: no. kids on medication would see a psychiatrist briefly (10min) once every other month or so for medication management. if that psychiatrist disagreed with buccelato, he got fired. as a result, they would keep you on whatever medication made you manageable, not what was actually best for you. You could not refuse your medication, if you did, you would go on restrictions. whatever was on the list for you, you had to take.
Drugs: on and off, yes. kids would bring in drugs after vacations, but would run out right away. sometimes the nightstaff would bring in tobacco, coke, speed, or weed if you figured out a way to pay them (no money allowed in HLA). that way was getting your freinds to pay them through paypal. kids would arrange this on their vacations or through secret codes in their letters, and sometimes with siblings. there is no nightstaff anymore from my understanding; kids are now only supervised by cameras in the dorms. another way was through locals - you can find people on myspace, facebook, or even chat people up while on school trips who can hook you up. for an extremely inflated price (like $1000 for an ounce of midgrade weed, paid for by your loyal friends at home via...paypal. gotta love paypal), you can arrange for them to sneak onto HLA property and drop it in a designated hiding spot where you would go pick it up the next day. if you got caught, you were sent to ridge creek. Coke, DXM, ecstacy and opiate pills were most common as they are easiest to get away with. cannabis was less common as it was easy to get caught smoking it and is somewhat bulky. it's hard to say for certain how much drugs there are, as people keep them secret and to themselves for the most part - if you dont tell anyone you will never get caught. but i can attest that i smoked weed at least fifty times while there, took vicodin at least a dozen times, tripped on DXM once, and tried coke my first time. there were also around twenty incidents in my two years there where kids got caught using or smuggling.
Sneaking: it was easy to sneak away for a smoke. theres often two staff for fifty kids running around a field...you just sneak off into the woods when there not looking. there are also many opprotunities to sneak off throughout the school day, like for example if you are on trash duty, you can smoke by the dumpster. the only problem is smelling on your clothes. i kept a trash bag with a smoking jacket behind the dumpster under a rock. i wonder if it's still there. you can also smoke in the shower once it's really steamy, or under the desks in the dorms using a toilet paper tube and fabric softener. (theres a little "cave" under each desk behind the beds),
weight: depends on who you were when you got there. ex-coke/methheads would gain tremendous amounts of weight, and so would the diabetics. i saw a diabetic speedfreek girl go from 110 to 220 in a matter of months. everyone else would gennerally loose a little weight while over the entire time there. they make you excesersize quite a bit, especially on restrictions, and they very rarely allow seconds at meals. alot of kids loose around ten pounds when they arrive due to lack of appetite (depression over getting sent away) and then they gain back 20 or 30 because their body isnt able to process the food yet (it's all very artificial), and then end up loosing that weight by the end of the program because their bodies get used to it and the excersizing catches up.
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Thanks kooKoo.
The food sounds like it really sucked but it must had been nice to be able to get off on your own even for a few minutes to have a smoke. Thinking about your next smoke or getting high was a good way to keep your sanity thru all that craziness I bet.
Were any of the staff nice? Could you trust any of them enough to sit down and shoot the shit with them without worrying about slipping up or were they always working? Were most of the kids really screwed up by the time they left? How did you make out? Make any friends? Did the place screw you up really badly? What was the worst part of your whole stay there?
Sorry I hope that is not too many questions. You dont have to answer them all.
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some of the staff were nice, but very few would let things slide. mainly the ACs (assistant counselors) were ok. they were mostly north georgia college students, a few local military people on leave, and a few average joes who just happen to work there. unfortunately (and fortunately, also) there was a very quick turnover rate for those people - they quickly became disillusioned with the place and did not want to be part of it. i'm not going to name names but there were a few very, very good people there. they would do quite a bit to make your stay more comfortable if you got on their good side. it was a 50/50 good/bad.
some of the kids were really screwed up when they left. as mentioned before in another thread recently, they either go into a very highly structured environment like the military or they fall into drugs really hardcore. most are fine, eventually. of the kids that go back into drugs most spend a few years doing that and then mature and move on with their lives. it's not that you are exactly SCREWED UP from the place. it's like this: when you are there, you are fed this bullshit reality, bullshit identity. as soon as you leave, you realize it was all a lie. so you start shedding parts...pieces of your mentality and identity forced on you at HLA. you try to catch up with your peers, experience things you missed while at HLA. eventually, you become a normal individual. the only problem is that the anxiety caused by living in that environment stays with you no matter what you do. going into nostalgic tangents where all you can think about is how much you hate HLA and anything to do with it or similar to it is common among most people. thats why fornits exists. OR you abandon your self of self and resign to the created identity they gave you.
i made our fine i guess. i abandoned everything they taught me, and found myself. it took many years of sitting around doing drugs though, but i turned out ok. I learned quite well how to manipulate people, situations, and get what i want through HLA - that i did not abandon.
i do keep in touch with some people. not very tight relationships, but friends still.
the worst part of my stay is the total mindfuck of it all. they force you to think things that you do not believe, so you have to pretend you actually believe their bullshit in order to stay comfortable and out of trouble. eventually you start becoming the lie, like an actor so immersed in his character he looses his sense of self. you have to be very carefull about what you say and do. also, because of the fallout system you were always fighting for trust with the counselors, and always suspect of your peers; while at the same time trying to earn the trust of your peers and fighting the suspicions of your counselors. HLA was also very unpredictable. you never know when someone is going to do something that you end up being involved in somehow that gets you in trouble. it was a constant fight to maintain appearances while trying to remain true to yourself. you never got any real rest from it all, there was never any real peace. there is a constant political cold war going on between students, between staff, and between students and staff. kids are always trying to find dirt on other kids to earn respect from counselors, or do things against the rules to earn respect from peers. kids were always probing and testing other kids and staff to find their buttons, their weak points, how far they can go with them, and to see how they can be used. people are always scheming against each other. it was a constant fight to stay out of it all. to survive you have to be extremely tactful and manipulative.
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Again, it sounds like not much has changed. I will say it sounds like Buchi lowered his standards in regards to who was allowed to attend. Thinking back now, I think that started to come into play more when I was on the way out. By allowing these Hanibal Lectors in, he made it worse on everyone. At least during my time the inmates by and large stuck together, and we didnt make life anymore miserable for each other. You could, with exception, tell each other about "agreements" (never quite got that one) you had broken. When I was locked up it was always much more us versus them.
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some of the staff were nice, but very few would let things slide. mainly the ACs (assistant counselors) were ok. they were mostly north georgia college students, a few local military people on leave, and a few average joes who just happen to work there. unfortunately (and fortunately, also) there was a very quick turnover rate for those people - they quickly became disillusioned with the place and did not want to be part of it. i'm not going to name names but there were a few very, very good people there. they would do quite a bit to make your stay more comfortable if you got on their good side. it was a 50/50 good/bad.
some of the kids were really screwed up when they left. as mentioned before in another thread recently, they either go into a very highly structured environment like the military or they fall into drugs really hardcore. most are fine, eventually. of the kids that go back into drugs most spend a few years doing that and then mature and move on with their lives. it's not that you are exactly SCREWED UP from the place. it's like this: when you are there, you are fed this bullshit reality, bullshit identity. as soon as you leave, you realize it was all a lie. so you start shedding parts...pieces of your mentality and identity forced on you at HLA. you try to catch up with your peers, experience things you missed while at HLA. eventually, you become a normal individual. the only problem is that the anxiety caused by living in that environment stays with you no matter what you do. going into nostalgic tangents where all you can think about is how much you hate HLA and anything to do with it or similar to it is common among most people. thats why fornits exists. OR you abandon your self of self and resign to the created identity they gave you.
i made our fine i guess. i abandoned everything they taught me, and found myself. it took many years of sitting around doing drugs though, but i turned out ok. I learned quite well how to manipulate people, situations, and get what i want through HLA - that i did not abandon.
i do keep in touch with some people. not very tight relationships, but friends still.
the worst part of my stay is the total mindfuck of it all. they force you to think things that you do not believe, so you have to pretend you actually believe their bullshit in order to stay comfortable and out of trouble. eventually you start becoming the lie, like an actor so immersed in his character he looses his sense of self. you have to be very carefull about what you say and do. also, because of the fallout system you were always fighting for trust with the counselors, and always suspect of your peers; while at the same time trying to earn the trust of your peers and fighting the suspicions of your counselors. HLA was also very unpredictable. you never know when someone is going to do something that you end up being involved in somehow that gets you in trouble. it was a constant fight to maintain appearances while trying to remain true to yourself. you never got any real rest from it all, there was never any real peace. there is a constant political cold war going on between students, between staff, and between students and staff. kids are always trying to find dirt on other kids to earn respect from counselors, or do things against the rules to earn respect from peers. kids were always probing and testing other kids and staff to find their buttons, their weak points, how far they can go with them, and to see how they can be used. people are always scheming against each other. it was a constant fight to stay out of it all. to survive you have to be extremely tactful and manipulative.
Thank you ……. That was one of the first honest accounts I have read on this thread. You wouldn’t believe how many people come here and write a story that is designed specifically to convince people that every person associated with the industry is the devil. The reader is left not knowing which part is truth and which part is merely a byproduct of their anger.
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Who, your basic literacy skills are decreasing. While I laugh as your brain cells slowly die, I also suggest that you ingest suitable substances to hasten the process and ease life for all of us. Drano, gasoline, and turpentine are all appropriate.
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Who, your basic literacy skills are decreasing. While I laugh as your brain cells slowly die, I also suggest that you ingest suitable substances to hasten the process and ease life for all of us. Drano, gasoline, and turpentine are all appropriate.
We are all slowly dying and our brains are slowing down. I use to be very fluent in Latin and was able to break down words I had never seen before and decipher their meaning and now much of that skill is gone (maybe it is more towards "use it or lose it"). But you will find that the most important thing is that you are enjoying life and contributing to the happiness of others. Someday you will realize this. So you are so hatful but someday you will see my point.
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the most important thing is that you are enjoying life and contributing to the happiness of others.
It's admirable you feel this way John. When are you planning on practicing what you preach? I mean save for making yourself a laughing stock, when have you ever contributed anything to others? You shamed your father at every turn, you murdered your wife, your drove your son to suicide, your only friends are those who support child abuse. What's left?
Name a single thing you've done in life to benefit others.
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" you murdered your wife" ----I may be off and I will take the heat Robert, but this is over the top... even for me. Not to mention in bad taste. The "Joggernaut" may have questionable character, actually not questionable, as he procures funds to send children into the warehouses of hell. A child scrapes his knee- a parent will cleanse the wound and place a bandage on it, because it is APPROPRIATE. A child breaks a limb and an Orthopedic Specialist is called in, because it is APPROPRIATE. Yet, a bulimic, anorexic, cutter, pedophile, suicidal, violent, drug addicted, alcoholic, schizophrenic, arsonist, ADHD, ODD child is warehoused with unlicensed, uncertified, certifiable people which is NOT APPROPRIATE and CRIMINAL. There is no scientific data that proves these illnesses are "cured" by a Wilderness Program or a SO-CALLED Therapeutic Boarding School - obviously. It is outrageous that procurement is sought to oblige a 50-60 billion dollar industry that is incapable of diagnosing and treating these children. Greed is blinding, but so is self-righteousness, narcissism - what John Reuben is doing is no different than his jogging stints....it is a means to keep himself in the limelight in his own mind... a hero for his own cause, however sick that may be. He would do better to raise funds for Ronald McDonald house, but there are less to none in kick backs.
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" you murdered your wife" ----I may be off and I will take the heat Robert, but this is over the top... even for me. Not to mention in bad taste.
Bruce is against the wall and trying to run away from having his guests posts exposed and rolled up under one user name. So he is using a sharp stick to try to get a reaction from posters for attention. This is his usual MO... next he will start calling people cowards if they “dont” reply to his posts. What I try to do is just let him continue to troll and ignore him, he usually calms down in a few days.
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A child scrapes his knee- a parent will cleanse the wound and place a bandage on it, because it is APPROPRIATE.
Yes, then take the child to see their pediatrician if it becomes infected, if the pediatrcian cannot solve it then they move on to a specialist and if it still isn’t solved the parents move to alternative medicines. (a good parent will never give up)
A child breaks a limb and an Orthopedic Specialist is called in, because it is APPROPRIATE.
Same thing, pediatrician, orthopaedic, chiropractor if needed, alternative medicine. (a good parent will never give up) until the child is walking properly and out of pain.
Yet, a bulimic, anorexic, cutter, pedophile, suicidal, violent, drug addicted, alcoholic, schizophrenic, arsonist, ADHD, ODD child ....
Is treated the same way. Pediatrician, local therapist, local services, alternative medicine (TBS) (a good parent will never give up).
No one expects a quick “cure”, what they are looking for are answers and possible solutions to their childs dilemma. They are at the end of the road and have exhausted all other solutions. Whether parents jog or not has nothing to do with their kids being sick.
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Bruce is against the wall and trying to run away from having his guests posts exposed and rolled up under one user name. So he is using a sharp stick to try to get a reaction from posters for attention. This is his usual MO... next he will start calling people cowards if they “dont” reply to his posts. What I try to do is just let him continue to troll and ignore him, he usually calms down in a few days
Oh John did you miss it? The post have already been linked up. I explained to you there was no bomb shell to be dropped, it just fizzled out and nothing happened. But hey, get 'em next time right?
So then it's time once again for you to face accountablility. Did you or did you not murder your wife? A simple yes or no will suffice. As to your specialist comments, explain to us where in your evolution of care, unlicensed abusive quacks come in. We've already established that this industry as a whole, and HLA in particular are full of them, so again why do you support them?
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Nice try Bruce. This is why no one believes what you post any more. You lied when you told us HLA failed 100% of the inspection points and you are lying once again. Come back when you have had all your posts strung together. Be honest for once. I have done it several times, if you are honest like I was and have nothing to hide then there should be no hesitation on your part. Then we can have a debate on HLA and I can fill you in on a few things. Now go get some courage up and get the job done otherwise go back to trolling to get attention and see how that works for ya.
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Still trying to avoid accountablility John? Still trying to attribute everything to me? Sorry Johnny, you need to accept the fact that I dont play the same games you do. I'm more interested in the truth, while you're interested in kick backs. I'm interested in saving kids (or teens if it sounds better to you) you're more interested in abusing them. You can't "fill me in" on anything related to HLA, because you don't have any facts regarding it. That's soley because you aren't interested in them. You've made that comment on here before.
The guest posts have been strung together, you can easily confirm this, you're just attempting to dodge the tough questions per your usual M.O. I warned you, you were wrong and there was nothing worth adding to my list. What you're too simple minded to understand is that either way you lose that credibility you're so obsessed with.
If you man up enough to answer my questions, the truth comes out and you're exposed as a person who supports and advocates child abuse.
If you don't you look like the coward you are who's afraid of a couple of questions.
Remember you are the same guy who cries about how whenever you bring up a differing perspective you're attacked because you claim people dont want to hear that. Yet when you're offered a conversation focused on the facts, and not the games you still run and hide.
Watch:
So the questions remain John, did you murder your wife? A yes or no will suffice. In your evolution of care for a child where do unlicensed abusive quacks come in? Now that we've established this industry and HLA are full of them, why do you continue to support them?
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"unlicensed quacks" is getting better..like Bernie Farrow...just not unlicensed..no P.H.D. i am told. Kind of like Buccellato's first "Dr .Sisk". Robert, he knows alot about HLA, but from Hollowhead's point of view, who is now off "selling" Aspen, a Regional Marketer, a salesman.
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Nice try Bruce. This is why no one believes what you post any more. You lied when you told us HLA failed 100% of the inspection points and you are lying once again. Come back when you have had all your posts strung together. Be honest for once. I have done it several times, if you are honest like I was and have nothing to hide then there should be no hesitation on your part. Then we can have a debate on HLA and I can fill you in on a few things. Now go get some courage up and get the job done otherwise go back to trolling to get attention and see how that works for ya.
I am starting to believe you are right thewho or whoever you are. I noticed his posts were never strung together yet he claims they were. You or some other poster was right about him calling everyone else cowards when they dont respond. Personally I wouldnt waste my time waiting for him to get his posts strung together. If he was going to do it he would have done it weeks ago. Give it up.
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MAYBE IF I JUST TRY HARD ENOUGH
I CAN REALLY PRETEND PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME
AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD WILL BELIEVE AT LEAST ONE OTHER POSTER DOES
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MAYBE IF I JUST TRY HARD ENOUGH
I CAN REALLY PRETEND PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME
AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD WILL BELIEVE AT LEAST ONE OTHER POSTER DOES
^^WHOOTER^^ Aspergers
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John, have you ever read "The Minds of Billy Milligan"? It might do wonders for you. While you're at it though there are still those unanswered questions. I'm not letting you off the hook.
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Nice try Bruce. This is why no one believes what you post any more. You lied when you told us HLA failed 100% of the inspection points and you are lying once again. Come back when you have had all your posts strung together. Be honest for once. I have done it several times, if you are honest like I was and have nothing to hide then there should be no hesitation on your part. Then we can have a debate on HLA and I can fill you in on a few things. Now go get some courage up and get the job done otherwise go back to trolling to get attention and see how that works for ya.
I am starting to believe you are right thewho or whoever you are. I noticed his posts were never strung together yet he claims they were. You or some other poster was right about him calling everyone else cowards when they dont respond. Personally I wouldnt waste my time waiting for him to get his posts strung together. If he was going to do it he would have done it weeks ago. Give it up.
I already knew he was not going to get it done or he would have done it the first day if for any other reason just to rub my face in it. But for some reason he doesnt want us to see what he writes when he is not logged in (I never had a problem exposing my guest posts because I have nothing to hide). He has a higher guest post rate than anyone else here. Most of us recognize his guest postings, he doesn’t hide them very well .
But I think this is a win/win for all of us. With me ignoring his trolling he will be forced to either troll someone else (which is doubtful), stop posting or resort to more constructive conversation. I think it would be healthier for Bruce (and us) to engage in conversation and debate which has more helpful content and more informative to the readers instead of destructive and vulgar. But time will tell.
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Oh but John, you're still missing the linking up is done. Further (and I do appreciate you allowing me to tear yet another one of your arguments apart) you're wrong on every point.
Here, allow me to educate you once again:
I already knew he was not going to get it done or he would have done it the first day if for any other reason just to rub my face in it. But for some reason he doesnt want us to see what he writes when he is not logged in
In actuallity there is nothing to add. I don't guest post, I don't play the same games as you. If your argument was true, then why did I pubilically ask the mods to link up my guest post twice? And why was nothing added at the time? Just because you pretended to be a moderator doesnt make you one John. Answer me on those points John, if you can.
(I never had a problem exposing my guest posts because I have nothing to hide).
Then you shouldnt have a problem doing it again. We all know you won't, you're a coward. It's the exact same reason why you wont bring suit against this site for exposing you as John D. Reuben. If you did, you'd have to open up all your posts for review. Let's not ignore the fact the last two times your postings were linked up, it was only due to the fact that Deborah tricked you.
He has a higher guest post rate than anyone else here. Most of us recognize his guest postings, he doesn’t hide them very well .
But I think this is a win/win for all of us.
Hence why you attempt to attribute every guest posts that tears you down to me. You're still too arrogant to accept that you dont have any supporters on this board, no one believes you, hence why carry on conversations with yourself. You even go so far as to assume every detractor is me because your mind wont allow you to consider the fact that there are others who recognize you for what you are. A child abuse supporter.
But I think this is a win/win for all of us. With me ignoring his trolling he will be forced to either troll someone else (which is doubtful), stop posting or resort to more constructive conversation. I think it would be healthier for Bruce (and us) to engage in conversation and debate which has more helpful content and more informative to the readers instead of destructive and vulgar. But time will tell.
Oh but John, how quickly you forget yet again. After you lost this current argument I once again offered you the chance to have a conversation that was soley focused on facts, and left out all the attacks, superfolus conversations or game playing. My only condition was that you not play your usual games. You being too attached to them declined. It was your choice not mine. You later on were manipulated into a conversation where I focused only on the topic at hand, you though per your usual M.O. tucked tail and ran the moment questions came up you couldnt answer.
I tried to explain this to you yesterday, and I like that you were paying attention enough to at least borrow from my own point. You ignore the questions put to you, and you look like the coward you are. You answer them and you expose yourself and your beliefes as being pro child abuse. Either way you lose.
I'm not going to stop holding you accountable John. You can call it trolling if you like, but remember you have your own definition for trolling which Id be glad to repost. If you can handle having a grown up conversation (I dont think you can) then I'd be happy to oblige you. Otherwise I'm not letting you off the hook John.
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Nice try Bruce. This is why no one believes what you post any more. You lied when you told us HLA failed 100% of the inspection points and you are lying once again. Come back when you have had all your posts strung together. Be honest for once. I have done it several times, if you are honest like I was and have nothing to hide then there should be no hesitation on your part. Then we can have a debate on HLA and I can fill you in on a few things. Now go get some courage up and get the job done otherwise go back to trolling to get attention and see how that works for ya.
I am starting to believe you are right thewho or whoever you are. I noticed his posts were never strung together yet he claims they were. You or some other poster was right about him calling everyone else cowards when they dont respond. Personally I wouldnt waste my time waiting for him to get his posts strung together. If he was going to do it he would have done it weeks ago. Give it up.
I already knew he was not going to get it done or he would have done it the first day if for any other reason just to rub my face in it. But for some reason he doesnt want us to see what he writes when he is not logged in (I never had a problem exposing my guest posts because I have nothing to hide). He has a higher guest post rate than anyone else here. Most of us recognize his guest postings, he doesn’t hide them very well .
But I think this is a win/win for all of us. With me ignoring his trolling he will be forced to either troll someone else (which is doubtful), stop posting or resort to more constructive conversation. I think it would be healthier for Bruce (and us) to engage in conversation and debate which has more helpful content and more informative to the readers instead of destructive and vulgar. But time will tell.
TheWho, Please ignore Bruce!!!! Let his trolling fall on deaf ears I beg you. His guest posts are of no importance, who cares, let him post however he chooses. The 2 of you just ruin any chance of dialog here, it goes on and on. If you care about fornits at all please ignore him.
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TheWho, Please ignore Bruce!!!! Let his trolling fall on deaf ears I beg you. His guest posts are of no importance, who cares, let him post however he chooses. The 2 of you just ruin any chance of dialog here, it goes on and on. If you care about fornits at all please ignore him.
We can tell when you're talking to yourself.
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TheWho, Please ignore Bruce!!!! Let his trolling fall on deaf ears I beg you. His guest posts are of no importance, who cares, let him post however he chooses. The 2 of you just ruin any chance of dialog here, it goes on and on. If you care about fornits at all please ignore him.
We can tell when you're talking to yourself.
I dont think that was Bruce, I recognize his guest posts. If I had to guess that was probably thewho.
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It was. I still don't guest post, whereas John has only the supporters in his mind. Either way you're still detracting from the issues that we're all here to discuss. How about it John? Can you handle a grown up conversation?
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TheWho, Please ignore Bruce!!!! Let his trolling fall on deaf ears I beg you. His guest posts are of no importance, who cares, let him post however he chooses. The 2 of you just ruin any chance of dialog here, it goes on and on. If you care about fornits at all please ignore him.
We can tell when you're talking to yourself.
I dont think that was Bruce, I recognize his guest posts. If I had to guess that was probably thewho.
She was talking to you about you talking to you, who
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Nice try Bruce. This is why no one believes what you post any more. You lied when you told us HLA failed 100% of the inspection points and you are lying once again. Come back when you have had all your posts strung together. Be honest for once. I have done it several times, if you are honest like I was and have nothing to hide then there should be no hesitation on your part. Then we can have a debate on HLA and I can fill you in on a few things. Now go get some courage up and get the job done otherwise go back to trolling to get attention and see how that works for ya.
I am starting to believe you are right thewho or whoever you are. I noticed his posts were never strung together yet he claims they were. You or some other poster was right about him calling everyone else cowards when they dont respond. Personally I wouldnt waste my time waiting for him to get his posts strung together. If he was going to do it he would have done it weeks ago. Give it up.
I already knew he was not going to get it done or he would have done it the first day if for any other reason just to rub my face in it. But for some reason he doesnt want us to see what he writes when he is not logged in (I never had a problem exposing my guest posts because I have nothing to hide). He has a higher guest post rate than anyone else here. Most of us recognize his guest postings, he doesn’t hide them very well .
But I think this is a win/win for all of us. With me ignoring his trolling he will be forced to either troll someone else (which is doubtful), stop posting or resort to more constructive conversation. I think it would be healthier for Bruce (and us) to engage in conversation and debate which has more helpful content and more informative to the readers instead of destructive and vulgar. But time will tell.
TheWho, Please ignore Bruce!!!! Let his trolling fall on deaf ears I beg you. His guest posts are of no importance, who cares, let him post however he chooses. The 2 of you just ruin any chance of dialog here, it goes on and on. If you care about fornits at all please ignore him.
Agreed, I intend to. He knows what he has to do. In the mean time he can try to be civil. It will be good for all concerned. I think we will see more discussions staying on topic.
Wow it seems "all" the guest posts are mine today... Hmmmm.
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Well you do like to talk to yourself.
So then my guest post have been linked up, the issue has been resolved. You may confirm this at your leisure. It appears as if youre the type of person who, when not recieving the answer he'd imagined, assumes he's been lied to. How has this served you in life? I'll wait to see if you'll keep up your end of the bargain.
In the meantime though lets get back to the discussion at hand. I believe one of the last things we were debating was whether or not while incarcerated at HLA we'd been served a starvation diet. Your thoughts?
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Nice try Bruce. This is why no one believes what you post any more. You lied when you told us HLA failed 100% of the inspection points and you are lying once again. Come back when you have had all your posts strung together. Be honest for once. I have done it several times, if you are honest like I was and have nothing to hide then there should be no hesitation on your part. Then we can have a debate on HLA and I can fill you in on a few things. Now go get some courage up and get the job done otherwise go back to trolling to get attention and see how that works for ya.
I am starting to believe you are right thewho or whoever you are. I noticed his posts were never strung together yet he claims they were. You or some other poster was right about him calling everyone else cowards when they dont respond. Personally I wouldnt waste my time waiting for him to get his posts strung together. If he was going to do it he would have done it weeks ago. Give it up.
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Sigh.
The sad part is he actually thinks others buy this nonsense. Are you still afraid of a couple of questions John? If you really believed in this stuff you'd be able to back it up.
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Sigh.
The sad part is he actually thinks others buy this nonsense. Are you still afraid of a couple of questions John? If you really believed in this stuff you'd be able to back it up.
Bruce I would just have your posts strung together and get it over with. He isnt going to buy your bluff just like I havent. Its a weak hand at most. If you are honest about your guest posting then it wont hurt a bit. Maybe have psy come out and say he strung your posts together after you get it done, maybe that would end it.
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He isnt going to buy your bluff just like I havent.
This implies that you have decision-making abilities, which you don't.
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He isnt going to buy your bluff just like I havent.
This implies that you have decision-making abilities, which you don't.
Everyone has decision-making abilities here. Each of us can decide for ourselves. Some may choose to believe him and others may choose to believe he is bluffing. I for one will take the position that he is bluffing.
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That's because you're the one who's afraid of the questions John. No one here is on your side, no one. I'm not going to do your homework for you, if you want confirmation that it's been done, get it yourself. I'm not afraid of the truth like you are.
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TheWho, I guess you are right after all, Bruce is bluffing, otherwise he would have given us the link to the post instead of having all of us look through 1,000's of posts to find it.
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Sorry John, that excuse won't work either. The post weren't logged in under a seperate user name, nor do I have any clue where they are. Afterall, it's been over a year. This was explained to you at the beginning when you attempted to attribute your own posts to me.
Now everyone but you understands the situation, no expects you to man up and have your posts linked together as you promised, let's move forward in the disucssion on HLA. Afterall the thing that matters here is helping these kids, not playing your games.
So then, the starvation diet, what are your thoughts?
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TheWho, I guess you are right after all, Bruce is bluffing, otherwise he would have given us the link to the post instead of having all of us look through 1,000's of posts to find it.
The truth always rises to the top eventually. There is no post confirming that his posts have been strung together, dont even bother looking. Like I said in the beginning, if he had nothing to hide he would have had his guest posts strung together the first day. Now he has to resort to lies to try to save face. Seems we have come full circle again. It makes me wonder if any of his postings were ever truthful.
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This is of course coming from the guy who has spoken endless yarns concerning his imaginary daughter, pretended to be a drug addled teen, and swore up and down he had no connection to the industry. Face facts John, you were proven wrong, none of the recent guest posts have been made by me, and you just cant stand to accept the fact that many besides me enjoy holding you accountable and calling you on your games.
Now that the issue has been settled and rehashed are you going to try and have a grown up conversation or not?
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TheWho, I guess you are right after all, Bruce is bluffing, otherwise he would have given us the link to the post instead of having all of us look through 1,000's of posts to find it.
The truth always rises to the top eventually. There is no post confirming that his posts have been strung together, dont even bother looking. Like I said in the beginning, if he had nothing to hide he would have had his guest posts strung together the first day. Now he has to resort to lies to try to save face. Seems we have come full circle again. It makes me wonder if any of his postings were ever truthful.
Your right thewho about it being a bluff, he didnt post the link. Bruce must of really had a bunch of guest posts to try to hide them and avoid accountability for them this badly.
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What link John?
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thewho, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Why would Bruce only post as a guest on occasion if as you say he's saying the same things with a username or without? I could understand if he was saying or claiming vastly different things. But in all honesty I don't see what his motivation would be otherwise.
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thewho, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Why would Bruce only post as a guest on occasion if as you say he's saying the same things with a username or without? I could understand if he was saying or claiming vastly different things. But in all honesty I don't see what his motivation would be otherwise.
Exactly, so if he says the same thing as a guest that he does logged-in then why is he afraid to expose his guest posts? That is the puzzling piece. I had my posts linked together 2 or 3 times. I dont see why Bruce is having such a difficulty with it.
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Well if he had nothing to add because he hasnt been guest posting, or if he's telling the truth and there were just a small handfull of old post. In that case his linking them wouldn't make any difference. You didnt answer the question about what his motivation might be towards guest posting. What reasoning do you have for thinking he has been?
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Well if he had nothing to add because he hasnt been guest posting, or if he's telling the truth and there were just a small handfull of old post. In that case his linking them wouldn't make any difference. You didnt answer the question about what his motivation might be towards guest posting. What reasoning do you have for thinking he has been?
Exactly, linking them would not make a difference at all if he only had a handful. So by him running away from this tells us he is hiding something. Bruce had asked me to have my guest posts linked to the user name TheWho and when I told him I had already done that 2 or 3 times I suggested that he should go first and have his done and that is when he started to run away from the idea. People are motivated in different ways. I guest post because I sold my user name and am now without a log-in name that I like. Others have a log-in name and also guest post to troll, some state things that they dont want linked to their user name. I dont know what motivates Bruce or why he is afraid to have is so called 5 guest posts linked to his user name.
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Okay but you still arent considering that he might be telling the truth and truly has nothing to link up. Or that he did link up those five but none of them were made in the recent past. You still havent answered why you think he is guest posting.
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Okay but you still arent considering that he might be telling the truth and truly has nothing to link up. Or that he did link up those five but none of them were made in the recent past. You still havent answered why you think he is guest posting.
Doesnt matter what I think or what motivates him to post as a guest. Going thru the simple process of having his posts linked together would settle it. I think the larger question that goes unaswered is why he is avoiding having it done. It is painless for him (unless he is lying) then I can see why he is avoiding all of this. Can you think of another reason why he wouldnt want to have his posts linked together? If the process has been done then I would have Psy just shoot off a message to Bruce saying all his guest posts have been attached to his user name RobertBruce as of such and such a date.
If he doesnt want to do it then I suggest he just be a man and come out and say it.
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Right but what if he really doesn't have anything to link up? What if he hasnt been guest posting? I saw where he did ask Psy to link up his guest postings. Maybe just to prove the point? I'm not trying to be rude to you. I understand what you mean when you talk about adding a different perspective or balance to the forum. I think though in this instance that hes right when he says youre so focused on getting the one answer you want to hear that you wont consider any others. Even if theyre true.
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Well, Bruce indicated that he does have guest posts. I am not looking for any specific answer. Once his guest posts are strung together that action will provide the answer. Bruce can say “See, thewho, I only had 5 guest posts in 4 years....” or it may come out that he has 500 guest posts and has been leading us all on. Myself,I had around 350 guest posts in 2 years when I had a user name and had them strung together. As long as you are not ashamed of what you post then I dont see why someone would not want their posts attached to their name. The more Bruce tries to avoid having his guest posts revealed the worse it looks for him.
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I have not posted on here in quite a while. I am the mother of one of the "teens", who was at HLA for a very long time and at her encouragement, I have periodically read on the website and a long time ago, posted some thoughts. I am saddened to see so much time wasted on accusations and banter that has nothing to do with addressing the sad state of options to parents with very dire parental situations, relating to their teens/family's health and well-being. Like most parents involved in deeply troubled home circumstances, I was in desperate straights, when I had a adolescent attorney, at the advice of Children's Hospital in Washington D.C., help me wrest my daughter from a placement at RICA/Mark Twain(coincidentally, this is the same place that the male teen minority, known sexual predator, allowed to attend her middle school, who sexually harrassed her attended, that I had had to pay an attorney to force the Montgomery County Court to make the public school get him away from my daughter, so she had the right to go to school and attempt to get an education, without the predator in her proximity), in Rockville, MD. The High School she attended fought me on services to assist her declining state of health, until they deemed her to be totally not serviceable and could refer her off to the highest level of public/mental incarceration. For the past 40 years, I have had knowledge of and experience with family challenges and no different than back in the 60's, 70's and on, there is still more fighting and misunderstanding of defining the problem, than there is in any appropriate dialogue about solutions. That goes for the institution, the parents, and the now adults, who endured placement at any "solution" that parents were "stuck" with in an attempt to address, what they felt was a "dire" circumstance.
My suggestion - parents truly want loving options, rather than fight about who is lying about stuff here, you seem like incredibly intelligent people, where are your alternative solutions to the next set of parents that come along with life-threatening circumstances or legal ramifications, where they are being forced by society, to "do something"?
That is what I'd like to see......
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it's called proper parenting. i know in great detail that you know nothing of the subject, so quit being such a hypocrite. If you just did your job right you would have never have had to choose between public corrections or private therapeutic boarding school. I love how parents who's kid's get in trouble always blame the "delinquency boogey-man" for their kid's problems, as if the problems stem from somewhere outside the family. It was all YOU. not your daughter, not the spoiled brat next door, marylin manson, or the drug dealer by the 7-11, it's all YOU. "Lacey" is a wonderful and very intelligent young woman, the only thing ever wrong with her were her problems stemming from a total lack of self esteem which was a direct result of her upbringing.
proper parenting prevents all the problems.
but, of course, in our suburban society full of dual working parents, babysitters, spoiled kids, high divorce rates, deeeeeruuuugssss, step-parents and skewed family values, i know it's quite difficult to be a good parent. NOT. you had a choice regrading your family's lifestyle, and you chose wrong. now your daughter has to live with the damage your mistakes have inflicted.
what i propose as a solution is an enlightenment of this society's attitudes towards parents and delinquents - parents should be held accountable. if a kid messes up like your daughter, YOU go into a therapeutic "camp" with her where they correct your mistakes in both you and her.
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the only thing ever wrong with her were her problems stemming from a total lack of self esteem which was a direct result of her upbringing.
Who made this diagnosis?
proper parenting prevents all the problems.
Please cite your source. I would like to see the study
but, of course, in our suburban society full of dual working parents, babysitters, spoiled kids, high divorce rates, deeeeeruuuugssss, step-parents and skewed family values, i know it's quite difficult to be a good parent. NOT. you had a choice regrading your family's lifestyle, and you chose wrong. now your daughter has to live with the damage your mistakes have inflicted.
The kid is the one that screwed up. If the child had stayed in school and worked on being a member of the family then she/he could avoid any placement.
what i propose as a solution is an enlightenment of this society's attitudes towards parents and delinquents - parents should be held accountable. if a kid messes up like your daughter, YOU go into a therapeutic "camp" with her where they correct your mistakes in both you and her.
Why make the rest of the family suffer with loss of income. All the other siblings are doing fine, going to school etc. why abandon them for the one kid who keeps screwing up?
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it's called proper parenting. i know in great detail that you know nothing of the subject, so quit being such a hypocrite. If you just did your job right you would have never have had to choose between public corrections or private therapeutic boarding school. I love how parents who's kid's get in trouble always blame the "delinquency boogey-man" for their kid's problems, as if the problems stem from somewhere outside the family. It was all YOU. not your daughter, not the spoiled brat next door, marylin manson, or the drug dealer by the 7-11, it's all YOU. "Lacey" is a wonderful and very intelligent young woman, the only thing ever wrong with her were her problems stemming from a total lack of self esteem which was a direct result of her upbringing.
proper parenting prevents all the problems.
but, of course, in our suburban society full of dual working parents, babysitters, spoiled kids, high divorce rates, deeeeeruuuugssss, step-parents and skewed family values, i know it's quite difficult to be a good parent. NOT. you had a choice regrading your family's lifestyle, and you chose wrong. now your daughter has to live with the damage your mistakes have inflicted.
what i propose as a solution is an enlightenment of this society's attitudes towards parents and delinquents - parents should be held accountable. if a kid messes up like your daughter, YOU go into a therapeutic "camp" with her where they correct your mistakes in both you and her.
Another imbecile has spoken.
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the only thing ever wrong with her were her problems stemming from a total lack of self esteem which was a direct result of her upbringing.
Who made this diagnosis?
proper parenting prevents all the problems.
Please cite your source. I would like to see the study
but, of course, in our suburban society full of dual working parents, babysitters, spoiled kids, high divorce rates, deeeeeruuuugssss, step-parents and skewed family values, i know it's quite difficult to be a good parent. NOT. you had a choice regrading your family's lifestyle, and you chose wrong. now your daughter has to live with the damage your mistakes have inflicted.
The kid is the one that screwed up. If the child had stayed in school and worked on being a member of the family then she/he could avoid any placement.
what i propose as a solution is an enlightenment of this society's attitudes towards parents and delinquents - parents should be held accountable. if a kid messes up like your daughter, YOU go into a therapeutic "camp" with her where they correct your mistakes in both you and her.
Why make the rest of the family suffer with loss of income. All the other siblings are doing fine, going to school etc. why abandon them for the one kid who keeps screwing up?
Wait a minute... Is TheWho contradicting an HLA "counselor"? Say it isn't so. TheWho spends all day every day here defending HLA and the first time a "counselor" posts, TheWho flips on him/her?
Who, what do you have against HLA employees??
PG54couselor - What can you tell us about why HLA takes kids in, takes the parents money, isolates the kid from family but does all of that knowing the parent is the real problem? Very interesting. Why not refuse to take the kid???
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The kid is the one that screwed up.
Look at TheWho squirm. he wants desperately to blame the children, but even counselors at his beloved HLA say the parents are the problem. TheWho's tiny little world just came unglued.
So, Whooter, are you saying that HLA counselors are liars and not fit to be in the business? Love to hear your answer on this one.
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It's not up to the counselors to determine admission, it was not our responsibility. I am not one of the two counselors in lacey's group, I only sat in on her peer group for a few sessions, but I have spoken to her mother on a few occasions and I know well enough about her family situation to make a judgement. we were just doing our jobs, which was to deal with the kids that were already there. telling the parent to take the kid back would have resulted in a huge fiasco, and also half the time the kids were not that much worse off at HLA compared to their home lives. I quit my job there a few months in as i had disagreements regarding your exact concerns.
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Well bully for you. I did the same almost 15 years ago.
In my experience, the vast majority of problems were indeed caused by the parents and not the kids. It sounds like that held true for the duration.
Were you a "masters level" counselor? What is your professional judgment on the efficacy of HLA's "treatment" model?
What types of abuse did you witness? Kid-on-kid? Staff-on-kid? Can you tell us a bit about the relative safety of the campus considering the dearth of staff and the genuinely dangerous kids enrolled there?
Thanks!
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the only thing ever wrong with her were her problems stemming from a total lack of self esteem which was a direct result of her upbringing.
Who made this diagnosis?
so medical diagnoses trump all experience? Anyone who knows her can make that observation. it's clear as daylight.
part of the reason i left HLA was because Len (buccelato) was insistant on counselors making diagnoses which result in greater parent satisfaction and therefore cash flow, not what the kid actually needs/has. whatever you think you know about your daughter based on what members of the HLA staff told you is absolutely dead wrong. They told you what you wanted to hear, not what you had to hear, and that's one of the core problems behind the social attitudes that result in a child being placed in a school like HLA.
proper parenting prevents all the problems.
Please cite your source. I would like to see the study
No need for sources or studies. There is 10,000 years of human experience and anecdotal evidence which surpasses the validity of any "scientific" study that can be conjured up.
but, of course, in our suburban society full of dual working parents, babysitters, spoiled kids, high divorce rates, deeeeeruuuugssss, step-parents and skewed family values, i know it's quite difficult to be a good parent. NOT. you had a choice regrading your family's lifestyle, and you chose wrong. now your daughter has to live with the damage your mistakes have inflicted.
The kid is the one that screwed up. If the child had stayed in school and worked on being a member of the family then she/he could avoid any placement.
maybe if you made that child feel like a member of the family....the family could have avoided placement.
what i propose as a solution is an enlightenment of this society's attitudes towards parents and delinquents - parents should be held accountable. if a kid messes up like your daughter, YOU go into a therapeutic "camp" with her where they correct your mistakes in both you and her.
Why make the rest of the family suffer with loss of income. All the other siblings are doing fine, going to school etc. why abandon them for the one kid who keeps screwing up?
So what your saying is money is the most important thing in life, and everything else comes second? You already suffered a loss of income from placing your child in HLA's custody. and really, is income really that much higher a priority compared to your child's and family's mental health? hmmmm. Knowing you i'm truly not surprised. many parents of HLA students have the same attitude: "heres some money, now get them out of my hair and fix them while i go about my business".
read what i said regarding your choice of lifestyle and attitude.
Furthermore, siblings are never treated equally and therefore do not come out equally. read the bible, maybe youll learn something... (cain+abel). do you really think genetics predispose someone to being sent away? NO! it's the way they are raised, and you fucked up royally in that department. Get your priorities straight.
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Wait a minute... Is TheWho contradicting an HLA "counselor"? Say it isn't so. TheWho spends all day every day here defending HLA and the first time a "counselor" posts, TheWho flips on him/her?
I guess thewho was telling the truth after all, he isnt here to defend HLA he is here to bring out the truth and add balance.
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Well bully for you. I did the same almost 15 years ago.
In my experience, the vast majority of problems were indeed caused by the parents and not the kids. It sounds like that held true for the duration.
Were you a "masters level" counselor? What is your professional judgment on the efficacy of HLA's "treatment" model?
What types of abuse did you witness? Kid-on-kid? Staff-on-kid? Can you tell us a bit about the relative safety of the campus considering the dearth of staff and the genuinely dangerous kids enrolled there?
Thanks!
I was a master's level counselor. HLA is completely ineffective, abusive, and predisposes the kids towards negative attitudes, habits and lifestyles. In Theory, the place seems very attractive and effective. The execution of those theories/practices is completely off kilter. The school is run by socially conservative money-loving zealots who do not have the slightest clue what they are doing despite their good intentions. With the exception of a handful of bad "therapeutic" practices such as disclosures, the theraputic aspect of the program should theoretically be effective. the problem is everything else - power and money hungry staff, excessive and undeserved consequencing, the fall-out system, strip searches, excessive supervision and paranoia regarding safety concerning the "agreements", admissions, everything.
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i was only there for a few months in 2003, so i dont know what the safety situation is like now.
kid-on-kid violence was common, especially at night. we broke up a "fight club" [like the movie] in dorm B the week i arrived. one time a kid was "tea-bagged" (scrotum placed in mouth) at night by his roommates and then had "i love cock" scrawled all over his body while he was sleeping. kids would also get into minor altercations very often, but would get broken up quickly. Staff-on-kid PHYSICAL violence rarely occured, if it did it was while performing a restraint improperly or while breaking up fights. what did occur was a whole lot of power-tripping: staff would single out kids they didnt like and consequence them excessively at the slightest misstep. In many ways the consequences bordered on violence - forcing kids to carry heavy objects all day, yelling and spitting in their face, forcing kids to do exercise in freezing rain, preventing visits to the bathroom, etc.
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so medical diagnoses trump all experience?
Yes
No need for sources or studies.
Translated: You dont have diddly to back up what you say.
maybe if you made that child feel like a member of the family....the family could have avoided placement.
There are children who are made to feel like they are part of the family and still reject being a part of it.
So what your saying is money is the most important thing in life, and everything else comes second?
I read back and didn’t see where I said that. There is a family unit that needs to be preserved and other children to be considered, housed and fed.
You already suffered a loss of income from placing your child in HLA's custody. and really, is income really that much higher a priority compared to your child's and family's mental health?
Exactly, if money was the high priority then parents wouldn’t spend a dime helping their kids and paying $100,000 + for one child while the other siblings have to cut back to help afford it.
hmmmm. Knowing you i'm truly not surprised. many parents of HLA students have the same attitude: "heres some money, now get them out of my hair and fix them while i go about my business".
I have no doubt that those types of parents exist. There are all kinds out there.
read what i said regarding your choice of lifestyle and attitude.
Furthermore, siblings are never treated equally and therefore do not come out equally. read the bible, maybe youll learn something... (cain+abel). do you really think genetics predispose someone to being sent away? NO! it's the way they are raised, and you fucked up royally in that department. Get your priorities straight.
Reading about families in a bible doesn’t make you an expert. I knew by your initial criticism that you never had any kids. Of course parents care about all their kids equally. You tipped your hand with that comment. Each child is different. You cannot adjust your parenting style to gain a desired outcome. You can take a child to church every day and read him the bible but if he doesn’t want to become a priest then there is nothing a parent can do.... every child is different regardless of parenting style.... every parent knows this.
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I guess thewho was telling the truth after all, he isnt here to defend HLA he is here to bring out the truth and add balance.
No, Not so. The previous post is evidence of how this particular troll is determined to wrest the topic off of HLA's abusive practices.
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I guess thewho was telling the truth after all, he isnt here to defend HLA he is here to bring out the truth and add balance.
No, Not so. The previous post is evidence of how this particular troll is determined to wrest the topic off of HLA's abusive practices.
Where? He responded to the entire post by pg54counselor, as far as I can see, and stayed on topic.
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I’ll quote the cult guy from south park on this one and advise you to “Look more closelier”. Specifically, at what troll chooses to not respond to and when troll's responses are inflammatory enough to provoke a diversion from HLA ‘s abusive practices.
i was only there for a few months in 2003, so i dont know what the safety situation is like now.
kid-on-kid violence was common, especially at night. we broke up a "fight club" [like the movie] in dorm B the week i arrived. one time a kid was "tea-bagged" (scrotum placed in mouth) at night by his roommates and then had "i love cock" scrawled all over his body while he was sleeping. kids would also get into minor altercations very often, but would get broken up quickly. Staff-on-kid PHYSICAL violence rarely occured, if it did it was while performing a restraint improperly or while breaking up fights. what did occur was a whole lot of power-tripping: staff would single out kids they didnt like and consequence them excessively at the slightest misstep. In many ways the consequences bordered on violence - forcing kids to carry heavy objects all day, yelling and spitting in their face, forcing kids to do exercise in freezing rain, preventing visits to the bathroom, etc.
I guess thewho was telling the truth after all, he isnt here to defend HLA he is here to bring out the truth and add balance.
No, Not so. The previous post is evidence of how this particular troll is determined to wrest the topic off of HLA's abusive practices.
Where? He responded to the entire post by pg54counselor, as far as I can see, and stayed on topic.
Nope.^
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i do have kids. five of them, and they all turned out just fine. how did i manage that? i do not allow myself to project an image of an ideal child and then force my child into that mold. I let them develop on their own only with my support, encouragement, and wisdom. I put their well-being above all else. I have never in any way allowed myself to become a vilified figure to my children. The one common thing I found among kids at HLA is that every single one of them has vilified at least one parent-figure. This was a bit of a shock to me, and my kids were likewise shocked to hear about it. The concept of parental vilification is completely outside their comprehension. I live scrupulously while providing a comfortable lifestyle and secure future for my family. That does not mean a 9-5 job for my wife an i, HDTV's, five cars, and a mcmansion. it means a self sufficient family farm, total financial independence, strong family bonds, and a good education. Both my wife an I work at home, and my kids have helped out ever since each of of them was old enough to perform any given task. While my kids attended public school, i supplemented them with 10 extra hours a week of home schooling in subjects they missed in high school (and college too!): philosophy, ethics, psychology, law (constitutional law in particular), history and geography of nations other than the U.S, and more traditional subjects such as carpentry, various subjects applicable to living off the land, advanced social skills, marksmanship, archery, martial arts, among many other things. My kids did not grow up in your suburban, consumerist, fetishistic society. They did not spend their days roaming the mall outfitting themselves in the latest hot-topic gear in order to set themselves apart as much as possible from the abercrombie crowd, or vice versa. They rarely skipped school because with the supplementary homeschooling, school was fun for them, and on the rare occasion that they did skip school i didnt care much because they were already ahead of their classmates. They never wandered the streets with nothing good to do, they always had plenty of work to do around the farm and plenty of safe places for recreation. they never went on "blunt rides" as kids do nowandays, because they were given a safe place to participate in that activity on my property. They did listen to the same music, play video games, and wear similar clothing, they still deal with the same social drama, but they dont think anything of it: they did not put it on such a high pedestal in their life as to allow those things to shape their identities. They have a clear sense of themselves and their purpose in life. To them, behaving in a way similar to the children at HLA is unthinkable; yet I also allowed them to misbehave in a controlled manner. I've allowed them since they each turned 13 to smoke pot, drink, stay out late and have all the sex they want, as long as they would do so in a responsible, adult manner. My three oldest 'experimented' a little once in a while but it never turned into something their lives centered around. my two younger children (both in their 20's now) were simply never interested in any of that (other than the opposite sex) because it was a fact of life around the house since they were babies, they had more interesting, and healthy "rebellious" things to do.
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pg. 54' could you please go back to sharing details on what HLA does? :feedtrolls:
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Please cite your source. I would like to see the study
This is funny. TheWho now demands studies. For over five years he has been telling people who want to see efficacy studies that parents' anecdotal evidence is all anyone needs. TheWho is a moron.
And, by the way, flipping on a counselor who deems HLA as abusive isn't "adding balance" - it's trying to smear or devalue an educated professional's opinion, i.e. that HLA is ineffective and abusive, in order to PROP UP HLA.
I think little Whootie is upset because another educated professional from his beloved industry affirms said industry is highly abusive and ineffective and blames the kids' parents for their problems. Whootie gets REAL MAD :flame: when his ego is crushed by yet another psychology professional telling him he is a lousy parent (his dead child isn't enough to convince him).
So, he's just trying to silence someone he doesn't want to hear :lala: because he's an immature little baby that raised his kids like a fucking chump, blamed them for his problems, sent them to abusive programs, then used his son's suicide/death notice as a marketing tool to attract more dumbass parents to his industry.
TheWho is a pathetic, transparent idiot and everyone but him seems to know this.
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Hey 54, you can see here about the troll "who" is tangling with you:
TheWho, Program Shill (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=16007)
He has posted over 850 times in this thread alone (under his username) and probably a thousand or more times anon in the same thread. You're dealing with a first-class dope. Enjoy!
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i do have kids. five of them, and they all turned out just fine. how did i manage that? i do not allow myself to project an image of an ideal child and then force my child into that mold. I let them develop on their own only with my support, encouragement, and wisdom. I put their well-being above all else. I have never in any way allowed myself to become a vilified figure to my children. The one common thing I found among kids at HLA is that every single one of them has vilified at least one parent-figure. This was a bit of a shock to me, and my kids were likewise shocked to hear about it. The concept of parental vilification is completely outside their comprehension. I live scrupulously while providing a comfortable lifestyle and secure future for my family. That does not mean a 9-5 job for my wife an i, HDTV's, five cars, and a mcmansion. it means a self sufficient family farm, total financial independence, strong family bonds, and a good education. Both my wife an I work at home, and my kids have helped out ever since each of of them was old enough to perform any given task. While my kids attended public school, i supplemented them with 10 extra hours a week of home schooling in subjects they missed in high school (and college too!): philosophy, ethics, psychology, law (constitutional law in particular), history and geography of nations other than the U.S, and more traditional subjects such as carpentry, various subjects applicable to living off the land, advanced social skills, marksmanship, archery, martial arts, among many other things. My kids did not grow up in your suburban, consumerist, fetishistic society. They did not spend their days roaming the mall outfitting themselves in the latest hot-topic gear in order to set themselves apart as much as possible from the abercrombie crowd, or vice versa. They rarely skipped school because with the supplementary homeschooling, school was fun for them, and on the rare occasion that they did skip school i didnt care much because they were already ahead of their classmates. They never wandered the streets with nothing good to do, they always had plenty of work to do around the farm and plenty of safe places for recreation. they never went on "blunt rides" as kids do nowandays, because they were given a safe place to participate in that activity on my property. They did listen to the same music, play video games, and wear similar clothing, they still deal with the same social drama, but they dont think anything of it: they did not put it on such a high pedestal in their life as to allow those things to shape their identities. They have a clear sense of themselves and their purpose in life. To them, behaving in a way similar to the children at HLA is unthinkable; yet I also allowed them to misbehave in a controlled manner. I've allowed them since they each turned 13 to smoke pot, drink, stay out late and have all the sex they want, as long as they would do so in a responsible, adult manner. My three oldest 'experimented' a little once in a while but it never turned into something their lives centered around. my two younger children (both in their 20's now) were simply never interested in any of that (other than the opposite sex) because it was a fact of life around the house since they were babies, they had more interesting, and healthy "rebellious" things to do.
So you were able to witness first hand that there is variation from child to child which is independent of parenting style. If one of your children didn’t like farming (just to take an example) there would be nothing you could adjust in your parenting style to make him/her embrace farming as a lifestyle.
Now take families where one parent died the other works, there is no home schooling or extended family or farm. Each day has a different challenge. Once you throw this into the mix you can begin to see the challenge of keeping all the kids on track becomes increasingly difficult. Then add adoption issues etc.
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The one common thing I found among kids at HLA is that every single one of them has vilified at least one parent-figure. This was a bit of a shock to me, and my kids were likewise shocked to hear about it. The concept of parental vilification is completely outside their comprehension.
Of course it is outside their comprehension. It is outside almost every kids comprehension. I bet if you placed one of your kids in HLA they would learn how to comprehend vilification in a short few days. You wouldn’t be at the top of their ten most favorite peoples list.
PG54 Are you sure you worked as a counsellor? Most professionals would understand why these kids are angry and pissed off at the ones who sent them there and you went home to talk to your kids about how miffed you were by their actions? No offense but I find this action a bit bazaar on your part to say the least.
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In addition to Whooter John now all of the sudden demanding studies and proof being provided, despite the fact that he's never provided any, and ignores it when its shoved in his face, I find it ironic that he has a staff member verifying abusive practices, yet all John can attempt to do is attack him personally. John were'nt you crying a few weeks ago claiming this happens to you whenever you "try to present a differing perspective"?
Own up to the fact that you have once again been owned.
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pg. 54' could you please go back to sharing details on what HLA does? :feedtrolls:
It may seem as if i went off on an unrelated tangent, that is not the case.
you want my professional opinion?
abusive programs exist because there is a demand for them. There is a demand for them because our society is diseased and dysfunctional. families are so messed up because of a confluence of factors all centered around the functioning of the american suburban/urban lifestyle. 9-5 jobs, long commutes, divorces, stepparents, the constant desire for more, the constant need for upwards mobility and "progress", horrible diets, dysfunctional educational system, excessive TV, "independent" women who "work" because they "can" and ignorantly deprive their family of a basic psychological need. All these things, and more, indirectly result in factors which cause problems within families, such as what guest (thewho) mentioned above: adoptions, single parents etc. it's not complexity, it's not technology. i'm no social conservative, i dont think "the gays are causing society to rot", i fucking hate bush, I voted ron paul. it's the fact that society has lost it's connection with the traditional means and ways of life which kept families glued together and stable for thousands of years. America has traded tradition for convenience, indulgence, and the ability to live life in a dollar and oil-fueled state of bliss. Look around you, read the news. has this recent economic crisis opened your eyes at all? The only thing that will eliminate programs is the elimination of the demand for them. The only way to eliminate the demand is to bring society back to a more basic, traditional, family and land - oriented social structure. Humans need purpose and stability in their lives. Modern society provides neither.
Posting on fornits in the hopes of getting programs shut down is like using a band-aid to attach a severed limb. it's not going to happen. You do have the effect of discouraging SOME parents from sending their kids away, but you wont stop the industry. This is a better analogy: Fornits is to the war on TBSs as what nancy reagan and DARE are to the war on drugs. i'm sure thats something you can wrap your minds around. I post here purely for amusement and for the opportunity to educate a few ignorant souls and pop their little reality bubbles. and i know who thewho is, i've been monitoring this site for a while but i've only posted on a few occasions in the distant past.
What will change the industry is TIME. HLA is getting what has been coming for them for a long time. It's Karma. Other institutions will come and go likewise, their lifespan determined only by the formula: How nice and luxurious they are divided by how abusive they are times how shrewd they are. Eventually, with the end of cheap oil society itself will collapse like the roman empire and the institutions will go with it. By that time, however, you guys will have much bigger things to worry about than taking your anger out on something wrong and corrupt.
You want me to go into great detail about the going-ons at HLA. it's not going to happen. As I said, I was only there for a few months six years ago. When all my kids left the house i got lonely so i figured i'd go work there. I was in for quite a surprise. Nothing i say would surprise you, most of everything i know has already been said somewhere on this forum in the past by someone else.
regarding variation from child to child: yes, i have observed exactly what you mentioned. my two girls hated farming growing up, although the boys loved it and they are still doing it. the girls moved out to a big city when they went to college and they were somewhat disgusted with the urban lifestyle. Then when they got married and had a kids i bought them a houses in an affluent suburban areas, more as an investment than expecting them to actually live there. they stayed there for five years and finally within a year of each other became fed up with it, finding it to be a caricature of rural life to appease the urban people who want peace and quiet. they were lost, didnt know what to do, their families were growing fat and lazy. Finnally, they gave up. I sold those suburban houses for a cool and very inflated thousand percent profit (~6mil each), divvied up the money between my kids. my daughters bought adjacent plots of land not too far from me and have started their own joint farming operation, and they love it. they are raising their kids the same way i raised them, and i am so damn proud of that it brings tears to my eyes. when i go, my land will go to them and she will continue the family business. My sons have also continued the family bussiness: one has an orange grove in florida, another has a ranch in wyoming, and my eldest is a well-known medical marijuana caretaker and shepherd (raises sheep) in california.
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The one common thing I found among kids at HLA is that every single one of them has vilified at least one parent-figure. This was a bit of a shock to me, and my kids were likewise shocked to hear about it. The concept of parental vilification is completely outside their comprehension.
PG54 Are you sure you worked as a counsellor? Most professionals would understand why these kids are angry and pissed off at the ones who sent them there and you went home to talk to your kids about how miffed you were by their actions? No offense but I find this action a bit bazaar on your part to say the least.
I understood exactly why these kids were so angry. it wasnt surprising, just shocking. I was more "miffed" at their parent's ignorance and the school's complacency to uphold that ignorance than at the kid's attitude.
I was a counselor, but not for any specific peer group. I was initially hired to be a pg counselor, but they had a temporary sag in admissions so i became a supervisor, and i "floated" from peer group to peer group from week to week supervising the other counselors, untill my disgust with a certain MR. McAllister MR. Hyde and MR. Holloway pushed me over the edge and led me to quit. My degrees are in philosophy, not psychology or psychiatry. I did my master's thesis on kantian ethics...
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Pg54, could you go into the bonus program that Len instituted where counselors were given a bonus for keeping a kid locked up regardless of theraputic value.
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Ha,Ha,Ha You are a follower of Kant!! Now your posts make a little more sense to me. That brings back wonderful memories for me. I had a friend who was an avid reader and lifetime student of philosophy and loved Kant . Our mutual friend would always enter the room and antagonize him by telling us all an event that occurred that day like he is feeling good today because he gave a blind man on the corner $5.00 and this would infuriate our philosophical friend that he did it for self gratification and not because it was the right thing to do and the argument would last for hours under the fog of several bottles of wine.
Thank you for that!! Pg54.
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i do have kids. five of them, and they all turned out just fine. how did i manage that? i do not allow myself to project an image of an ideal child and then force my child into that mold. I let them develop on their own only with my support, encouragement, and wisdom. I put their well-being above all else. I have never in any way allowed myself to become a vilified figure to my children. The one common thing I found among kids at HLA is that every single one of them has vilified at least one parent-figure. This was a bit of a shock to me, and my kids were likewise shocked to hear about it. The concept of parental vilification is completely outside their comprehension. I live scrupulously while providing a comfortable lifestyle and secure future for my family. That does not mean a 9-5 job for my wife an i, HDTV's, five cars, and a mcmansion. it means a self sufficient family farm, total financial independence, strong family bonds, and a good education. Both my wife an I work at home, and my kids have helped out ever since each of of them was old enough to perform any given task. While my kids attended public school, i supplemented them with 10 extra hours a week of home schooling in subjects they missed in high school (and college too!): philosophy, ethics, psychology, law (constitutional law in particular), history and geography of nations other than the U.S, and more traditional subjects such as carpentry, various subjects applicable to living off the land, advanced social skills, marksmanship, archery, martial arts, among many other things. My kids did not grow up in your suburban, consumerist, fetishistic society. They did not spend their days roaming the mall outfitting themselves in the latest hot-topic gear in order to set themselves apart as much as possible from the abercrombie crowd, or vice versa. They rarely skipped school because with the supplementary homeschooling, school was fun for them, and on the rare occasion that they did skip school i didnt care much because they were already ahead of their classmates. They never wandered the streets with nothing good to do, they always had plenty of work to do around the farm and plenty of safe places for recreation. they never went on "blunt rides" as kids do nowandays, because they were given a safe place to participate in that activity on my property. They did listen to the same music, play video games, and wear similar clothing, they still deal with the same social drama, but they dont think anything of it: they did not put it on such a high pedestal in their life as to allow those things to shape their identities. They have a clear sense of themselves and their purpose in life. To them, behaving in a way similar to the children at HLA is unthinkable; yet I also allowed them to misbehave in a controlled manner. I've allowed them since they each turned 13 to smoke pot, drink, stay out late and have all the sex they want, as long as they would do so in a responsible, adult manner. My three oldest 'experimented' a little once in a while but it never turned into something their lives centered around. my two younger children (both in their 20's now) were simply never interested in any of that (other than the opposite sex) because it was a fact of life around the house since they were babies, they had more interesting, and healthy "rebellious" things to do.
I'm calling bullshit on this. I was in PG 54. there was Darlene, Denny, and Chrissy. Darlene had a breakdown and quit after finding Amy Klemm hanging dead (for the most part) in her closet. Denny still works there but last I heard he was just the athletics coordinater or something. Denny was a good person. Not good enough to quit HLA or expose anything real that was going on there, but good enough to stand up to my parents for me and sympathize with my situation. He had a particularly good view on the manipulation on both sides of my parents horrific divorce case and understood how hard it hit me. Especially the abandonment issues stemming from my fathers complete and total lack of care for me. And then there was Chrissy. Chrissy was the only person that would fit this bill of being someone who "sat in" on our reals. She was MAYBE 25, and said she had no kids. She was also conservative and soft spoken, not anything like the person painted here. So, pg45counselor, I don't know who you are, but you're certainly not anyone I know, and being in PG 54, with all that you're touting is true, I have to make a sincere bullshit call.
You're welcome to make a login and PM me, and I will totally retract this if I've forgotten someone, but in 2 years, I never met anyone who sounds like they'd be you.
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i'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. I'm also sorry that i cannot message you or reveal my real identity to anyone. i signed a nondisclosure agreement and technically it's illegal for me to even be posting anything on this site. although considering this, my posts may have seemed reckless, i do choose what i reveal and dont reveal carefully. For that exact reason you do not know who i am....I never told anyone at HLA anything about my private life and therefore most of the facts mentioned before cannot be traced back to my true identity. I know who you are, K.R, because one of your friends, an ex-student, who i know through family, revealed to me the identity of a number of people who post here.
I was a little "higher up" than denny or darlene. I only sat in your reals twice, and only for around half an hour each time. If you can remember, HLA brought in "specialists" or "prospective counselors" or "prospective employees" into reals? well i was one of those. I wasnt around the kids very often, but i did know them quite well, including you, but only through files. I spent countless hours sitting in one of the back offices of the counselor building reading through student files, reviewing various incident reports, dorm tapes, phone calls, and whatnot. They hired me as a counselor but when they couldn't get me a peer group they put my expertise into use to clean the place up, ethically that is, but when i held the staff accountable i was admonished.
that marks the end of my time posting at fornits. Moving on now.....nothing against you guys, but i have better things to do and i dont feel like getting a call from quirk&quack.
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Ha,Ha,Ha You are a follower of Kant!! Now your posts make a little more sense to me. That brings back wonderful memories for me. I had a friend who was an avid reader and lifetime student of philosophy and loved Kant . Our mutual friend would always enter the room and antagonize him by telling us all an event that occurred that day like he is feeling good today because he gave a blind man on the corner $5.00 and this would infuriate our philosophical friend that he did it for self gratification and not because it was the right thing to do and the argument would last for hours under the fog of several bottles of wine.
Thank you for that!! Pg54.
what a classic whooter post. trying to turn the discussion into nostalgic small talk whilst being subliminally subversive. my how tactful you are whootie. go blow a fish. haha, see, i did it too! without ever resorting to pretending to be smart! hooo hoo haahhaaa.
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pg54-in time, if u were on "staff" during pg54-all will come out, as I kept EVERY shred of docs from intake to out take, from all the flaming money grubbing "health-care" providers, that systematically raped this family and I am turning them all over to Lacey and she would figure out who you are(were you the one who forbid me to call my own child, as you determined, I was inappropriate??)...every stinking piece of paper - since you know her last name, some day, to amuse yourself - log on to the 30 years+ of legal docs -using her last name, in the County and State she was from, since you know so much and avail yourself of multi-state government/healthcare manipulation of a family that included Judges, Both Adolescent and Adult Law Firms, Pysychiatric Hospitals, TBS, Wilderness Programs, Public School Systems, Private Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Theurapists and on and on...I don't care your personal or professional experience, you had NO idea what our family dealt with and my only ability to protect my daughter from garbage kids should never know about an absent parent, was to legally take the path I took.With all the postings here and I do care that those of you with the experitse and will contribute to change the available solutions for parents like myself, as you weild the power of your pen, try to remember, some of us coming to this horrible choice, had already sufferred the loss of a previous child to exactly the same set of circumstances.Lacey had a brother, who did not get put in any kind of treatment. He had very similar challenges and I read with humor the alternatives to treatment given here and can tell you, I TRIED THAT WITH HIM! It didn't work. As his chosen "Mother", I had the "honor?" of letting that first handful of dirt fall from my hand onto his coffin, dead at 14 years old!!.Lacey has siblings that did not take the same path and you might, as pg54 referred to her offspring, call them "successful". Same parents, same environment, who can tell why some kids go one way and others, another? You want to help the next parent sitting suicide watch on their kid tonight? not knowing if they will kill themselves or you, then stop all the infighting and join forces and truly go out with one voice and demand that the "powers that be" listen to you, I do not think you have the answers, but YOU CERTAINLY HAVE THE RIGHT QUESTIONS....
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i'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. I'm also sorry that i cannot message you or reveal my real identity to anyone. i signed a nondisclosure agreement and technically it's illegal for me to even be posting anything on this site. although considering this, my posts may have seemed reckless, i do choose what i reveal and dont reveal carefully. For that exact reason you do not know who i am....I never told anyone at HLA anything about my private life and therefore most of the facts mentioned before cannot be traced back to my true identity. I know who you are, K.R, because one of your friends, an ex-student, who i know through family, revealed to me the identity of a number of people who post here.
I was a little "higher up" than denny or darlene. I only sat in your reals twice, and only for around half an hour each time. If you can remember, HLA brought in "specialists" or "prospective counselors" or "prospective employees" into reals? well i was one of those. I wasnt around the kids very often, but i did know them quite well, including you, but only through files. I spent countless hours sitting in one of the back offices of the counselor building reading through student files, reviewing various incident reports, dorm tapes, phone calls, and whatnot. They hired me as a counselor but when they couldn't get me a peer group they put my expertise into use to clean the place up, ethically that is, but when i held the staff accountable i was admonished.
that marks the end of my time posting at fornits. Moving on now.....nothing against you guys, but i have better things to do and i dont feel like getting a call from quirk&quack.
Ah, but "Quirk and Quirk" have been gone for two years... It is Thornton Morris now.
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pg54-in time, if u were on "staff" during pg54-all will come out, as I kept EVERY shred of docs from intake to out take, from all the flaming money grubbing "health-care" providers, that systematically raped this family and I am turning them all over to Lacey and she would figure out who you are(were you the one who forbid me to call my own child, as you determined, I was inappropriate??)...every stinking piece of paper ....
sorry i said i'm gone but i just have to say something.....
first of all....i can tell your drunk, and upset. i'm sorry for upsetting you. your post is somewhat difficult to decipher, it's fairly incoherent.
I was actually against the practice of restricting phone calls, period. i took this issue, your case specifically was one of many that i mentioned, directly to Len my first week there and nearly got fired after a heated debate that involved quite a bit of yelling...from me. Yes, i YELLED at LEN BUCCELATO my first week working at HLA. I was one of the few people who worked there that stood up to all the harmful and unethical practices, and i quit because my grievances were constantly swept under the carpet and ignored.
As for blaming you for your daughter's troubled mind...are you seriously going to tell me with absolute honesty (and look me straight in the eye, if you could) and deny any and all responsibility for how your kids turned out? i know it's horrible going through what you went through, and i feel sorry for you, and there were most definitely factors outside of your control, but that doesn't change the fact that you are responsible in some way, as was her father (even more so....maybe). I know it's hard to hear that, but you have to hear it.
please, before dumping your troubles on other people make a thorough self-examination. what sets you apart from a "normal" "functional" family? what choices did you make in your past that led you to this juncture? what led you to the divorce, everything?
dont take this personally or get more upset about it. I know it's hard to hear but i only have good intentions. I really dont feel like tracking down lacey's phone # now and getting her to suicide watch YOU.
and good luck to lacey figuring out who i am. my name was never on any correspondence, i was paid off the books (as were many other employees), all of my notes burned down with the academic building, and on a recent occasion that i called len to check on the status of the school, he didnt even remember who i was. he thought i was a student.
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Thank you for this. "i was paid off the books (as were many other employees), " This will be attached to package that has already gone to the IRS... Is your IP address blocked from Ginger? Do hope you a woofing.
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Alright 54, you’ve crossed the line from simply self-righteous to showing yourself to be an out and out sanctimonious bitch.
Thanks for illustrating credentials and compassion are not necessarily found by all who pursue positions in the “helping professions”, and that many (like you) are simply judgmental hypocrites.
You promised you were leaving and I for one would be pleased if you fulfilled it.
Oh, and I do hope if you are who you've said you are (beyond what you've shown yourself to be), that Lacey will let us know.
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pg54-in time, if u were on "staff" during pg54-all will come out, as I kept EVERY shred of docs from intake to out take, from all the flaming money grubbing "health-care" providers, that systematically raped this family and I am turning them all over to Lacey and she would figure out who you are(were you the one who forbid me to call my own child, as you determined, I was inappropriate??)...every stinking piece of paper - since you know her last name, some day, to amuse yourself - log on to the 30 years+ of legal docs -using her last name, in the County and State she was from, since you know so much and avail yourself of multi-state government/healthcare manipulation of a family that included Judges, Both Adolescent and Adult Law Firms, Pysychiatric Hospitals, TBS, Wilderness Programs, Public School Systems, Private Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Theurapists and on and on...I don't care your personal or professional experience, you had NO idea what our family dealt with and my only ability to protect my daughter from garbage kids should never know about an absent parent, was to legally take the path I took.With all the postings here and I do care that those of you with the experitse and will contribute to change the available solutions for parents like myself, as you weild the power of your pen, try to remember, some of us coming to this horrible choice, had already sufferred the loss of a previous child to exactly the same set of circumstances.Lacey had a brother, who did not get put in any kind of treatment. He had very similar challenges and I read with humor the alternatives to treatment given here and can tell you, I TRIED THAT WITH HIM! It didn't work. As his chosen "Mother", I had the "honor?" of letting that first handful of dirt fall from my hand onto his coffin, dead at 14 years old!!.Lacey has siblings that did not take the same path and you might, as pg54 referred to her offspring, call them "successful". Same parents, same environment, who can tell why some kids go one way and others, another? You want to help the next parent sitting suicide watch on their kid tonight? not knowing if they will kill themselves or you, then stop all the infighting and join forces and truly go out with one voice and demand that the "powers that be" listen to you, I do not think you have the answers, but YOU CERTAINLY HAVE THE RIGHT QUESTIONS....
Hidden Lake forbade you to call Lacey? Why not just rescue her from a "school" that places that sort of abusive controls on its detainees? pg54, seems to have you pegged, if you didn't and Lacey was not court ordered.
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I'm not a huge fan of defending parents who cede parenting to strangers, but these programs get a lot of mileage out of exploiting fears, and
to that end often pull no punches when it comes to controlling the parents in unethical ways.
In addition to that, a lot of what 54 asserted in her post crossed the line from discussion and devolved into an attempt to character assassinate.
It back fired.
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Alright 54, you’ve crossed the line from simply self-righteous to showing yourself to be an out and out sanctimonious bitch.
Thanks for illustrating credentials and compassion are not necessarily found by all who pursue positions in the “helping professions”, and that many (like you) are simply judgmental hypocrites.
You promised you were leaving and I for one would be pleased if you fulfilled it.
Oh, and I do hope if you are who you've said you are (beyond what you've shown yourself to be), that Lacey will let us know.
As P54s never forced his offspring into a gulag, nor do a bad job raising them, really, he can't be called a ‘hypocrite.’ I’m in agreement with him that 'program parents' in general (which this woman seems to be) are terrible human beings, the brunt of their terror landing on their kids. So, yeah, outside of the 'troubles' engendered through poverty, as a rule, teen 'troubles' are caused by parents, assuming any 'troubles' really exist. Kids don’t raise themselves--for the most part program kids would have been better off if they had!
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Thank you for this. "i was paid off the books (as were many other employees), " This will be attached to package that has already gone to the IRS... Is your IP address blocked from Ginger? Do hope you a woofing.
You forniticators never fail to entertain me.
dont get your panties in a bunch just yet.
consider this:
- Anyone can post anything on this site. I may or may not be an ex-employee, I may or may not even have anything to do with the school. I may just be a troll who came upon this site on a boring monday afternoon. I may be a psychic, or a mentalist. I may be an investigator myself. I may have assumed the role of pg54counselor to prove a point. i may or may not be the same pg54counselor, pg54counselor may be a bunch of people! or I might be one sadistic bored little 13 year old. there is no way to tell.
- Anything posted on this site is considered hearsay in court.
- therefore, even if you found my true IP, what exactly are you going to do, supoena an anonymous random internet subscriber who may or may not exist, who may or may not just be fucking with you? for breaking what law?
it's the hard truth of fornits.
face it foniticators, you are being fucked with. I'm a troll and you just got owned.
or am I? and did you?
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pg54counselor
i'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. I'm also sorry that i cannot message you or reveal my real identity to anyone. i signed a nondisclosure agreement and technically it's illegal for me to even be posting anything on this site. although considering this, my posts may have seemed reckless, i do choose what i reveal and dont reveal carefully.
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Non disclosure agreements are invalid except in application to intellectual property. Hidden Lake Academy's non disclosure contract is a scare tactic intended to prevent you from informing the public, or contacting authorities about Hidden lake Academy’s abusive, unethical practices.
You’re too smart to fall for it! Do what’s right here. Contact Jill Ryan, or GAO personnel that investigated Hidden lake Academy.
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This pg54 asshole is totally full of shit. Notice he/she knew when to cut and run... as soon as everyone started seeing through his/her haze of bullshit. I was there in 2003. There were no counselors hired as "supervisors". There were no fucking supervisors. Further, non-disclosure agreements don't last forever, asshole. The life of most of them is one year. The maximum is 5 years. And even further, counselors - especially those who were supposedly there for only a couple of months - had nothing to disclose. The only people who signed non-disclosure agreements were those who had something potentially damaging to disclose. No "counselor" ever made it that far. You're a total fucking phony, 54. Crawl back in your fucking hole and keep your dick sucker shut.
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"Car 54 Where Are You?" Trolling, running with Reuben...don't waste your time on this one...never happened. Lacey is right on the money.
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the exchange that went on on these past few pages is a perfect example of why fornits is ineffective.
Lacey may or may not be right on the money.
and 54 may or may not be a troll
no one will ever know
but doesnt matter.
what matters is: 54 has some good points, lacey's mom is an overly emotional screwball, nothing posted on this site means jack shit, and no one else in the world gives a fuck. The fact that you took someone who was fucking with you so seriously just goes to show how desperate and inexperienced you all are. pull your heads out of your asses and get some fucking schooling.
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Ungrateful droll troll.
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the exchange that went on on these past few pages is a perfect example of why fornits is ineffective.
Lacey may or may not be right on the money.
and 54 may or may not be a troll
no one will ever know
but doesnt matter.
what matters is: 54 has some good points, lacey's mom is an overly emotional screwball, nothing posted on this site means jack shit, and no one else in the world gives a fuck. The fact that you took someone who was fucking with you so seriously just goes to show how desperate and inexperienced you all are. pull your heads out of your asses and get some fucking schooling.
Ask your buddy Bucchi how seriously he takes this site.
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the exchange that went on on these past few pages is a perfect example of why fornits is ineffective.
Lacey may or may not be right on the money.
and 54 may or may not be a troll
no one will ever know
but doesnt matter.
what matters is: 54 has some good points, lacey's mom is an overly emotional screwball, nothing posted on this site means jack shit, and no one else in the world gives a fuck. The fact that you took someone who was fucking with you so seriously just goes to show how desperate and inexperienced you all are. pull your heads out of your asses and get some fucking schooling.
Ask your buddy Bucchi how seriously he takes this site.
whooooooooppeeeeee
if a martian living on uranus said something bad about hidden lake, bucchi would want to know about it and take it seriously.
HLA is fucked regardless of what anyone does on this site. they did it to themselves, you were just a breeze at it's back.
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Dear little troll, Fornits was used as a conduit to disseminate and collect information which contributed to the bankruptcy of HLA. You are so out of your league... do go out and play with your carcinogens.
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do go out and play with your carcinogens.
whats with the randomness?
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Dear little troll, Fornits was used as a conduit to disseminate and collect information which contributed to the bankruptcy of HLA. You are so out of your league... do go out and play with your carcinogens.
no shit sherlock! but why are you still here? HLA is bankrupt. there is nothing more you can do until another ex-staff or ex-student comes to visit your site with up-to date info. considering the staff and students are numbered roughly around two dozen people combined, i dot think it's going to happen anytime soon.....as demonstrated by our dear friend, the sadistic pottymouth mister 54. He gave you peeps the hard truth and you reject it because it simply doesn't flow with your own imagined vision of reality. good luck keeping your future kids out of the TTI. All you guys are doing now is sitting around in a circle jerk waiting for someone with a little information to come so you could pounce all over them, like a bunch of hungry dogs with meat dangling over their heads. it's pathetic yet primitively amusing. How many years have you people been out of HLA? 5+? you all should be in your mid-twenties. live your life, dont waste it here. take the advice of a few individuals who have posted here recently...forget about everything and move on, then the school cant hurt you anymore. Focus your attention on a more pertinent issue...like the TBS's that are still up and running in full capacity. But wait, you dont care because it doesnt apply to you, so you cant make the excuse that you're really here to selflessly prevent other kids from experiencing the horror without doing it for your own self gratification. (nod to thewho....but you're still my nemesis whooter). or maybe take up a more important cause, like genocide, or the environment. quit wasting your time here of bullshit that a monkey could see through as if it were glass.
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Dear little troll, Fornits was used as a conduit to disseminate and collect information which contributed to the bankruptcy of HLA. You are so out of your league... do go out and play with your carcinogens.
fornits only helped a little. private conversations between parents involved in the lawsuit, initiated on myspace and facebook and carried on through email is what really disseminated the information. Fornits is just a starting point for parents. Most dont even have the time to pick through all the trash on the site to find the rare jewel of a post.....coming here only forces them to question things more.
I've been one of the key players in this game since day one. i know this site better than ginger herself, and thewho practically owes his paycheck to my existence. Len has tried everything in his power to get me to shut up.
the people who post on fornits are so desperate for revenge and self gratification they are just begging to be deceived. If pg54counselor managed to deceive you, how many more layers of deception are going on behind the curtains that you dont know about? let this be a lesson to you all.
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... how many more layers of deception are going on behind the curtains that you dont know about? let this be a lesson to you all.
... WoooHOOOO I'm the ghost of silence the posts! Wooooowhoooooooooo!
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lets just move on now and pretend this didn't happen.
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Pretend what didn't happen?
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the slaughter of thousands of people. without trial.
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ha..M.Robespierre....you had me for like a second.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Robespierre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Robespierre)
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Is that all one person? how many people is this? uuuughgghghg i HATE TROLLS! :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls: :feedtrolls:
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it was all me. i confess. but i'm only the first and third pg54 guy, the other guys are some nerds from taiwan and some guy in el paso, texas.
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fuck off
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wtf happened here? i leave to go to dinner and all of a sudden a dozen weirdos have assumed my identity? seriously, WTF. the past dozen or so posters are completely full of shit and are lying, pretending to be me. this is so immature.
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you got that last bit right but your still lying everyone knows trolls feed on corn nuts
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how little pg54 counselor knew - lacey was court ordered - as of 08 10 2000 - the public school system (due to choices lacey made to manage her reactions to the stresses from ongoing family litigation from before she was born) referred her to RICA/Mark Twain..basically a low end public jail for teens...only through Children's Hospital contacts to Patricia Murphy, one of Bucci head goons, did Lacey avoid that hell and I get to slip her out of state to Utah...if pg54 counselor actually have "knowledge", they would have known the judge, GAL, and multiple law firms(Q&Q was small potatoes compared to these big boys/girls)that had total control over placement. The only reason my phone calls/contact could be controlled, under threat of jail, was that the Court was in complete control. My being in jail would have made me completely unavailable upon her graduation. Emotional screwballl? ok, I can own that, but if you all here truly want to put forth better solutions, it would have had to have been years before HLA was in the picture. With Patty Murphy in Bucci's pocket, and in cohoots with the GAL and the opposing law firm, there was no discussion on placement of "placement". Patty Murphy tried to bribe me with issues being negotiated in an ongoing lawsuit, for NOT placing, but as the ed consult had no knowledge of the lack of reliability of the parties, it was ludicrous to "trust" her interference.
Solutions people - parents are reading with kids in the early stages of these challenges and I challenge you all to address better solutions than the ones i was offerred!!!!
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how little pg54 counselor knew - lacey was court ordered - as of 08 10 2000 - the public school system (due to choices lacey made to manage her reactions to the stresses from ongoing family litigation from before she was born) referred her to RICA/Mark Twain..basically a low end public jail for teens...only through Children's Hospital contacts to Patricia Murphy, one of Bucci head goons, did Lacey avoid that hell and I get to slip her out of state to Utah...if pg54 counselor actually have "knowledge", they would have known the judge, GAL, and multiple law firms(Q&Q was small potatoes compared to these big boys/girls)that had total control over placement. The only reason my phone calls/contact could be controlled, under threat of jail, was that the Court was in complete control. My being in jail would have made me completely unavailable upon her graduation. Emotional screwballl? ok, I can own that, but if you all here truly want to put forth better solutions, it would have had to have been years before HLA was in the picture. With Patty Murphy in Bucci's pocket, and in cohoots with the GAL and the opposing law firm, there was no discussion on placement of "placement". Patty Murphy tried to bribe me with issues being negotiated in an ongoing lawsuit, for NOT placing, but as the ed consult had no knowledge of the lack of reliability of the parties, it was ludicrous to "trust" her interference.
Solutions people - parents are reading with kids in the early stages of these challenges and I challenge you all to address better solutions than the ones i was offerred!!!!
I was court ordered? News to me. Thought HLA didn't take court ordered kids. :wall:
Whatever.
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how little pg54 counselor knew - lacey was court ordered - as of 08 10 2000 - the public school system (due to choices lacey made to manage her reactions to the stresses from ongoing family litigation from before she was born) referred her to RICA/Mark Twain..basically a low end public jail for teens...only through Children's Hospital contacts to Patricia Murphy, one of Bucci head goons, did Lacey avoid that hell and I get to slip her out of state to Utah...if pg54 counselor actually have "knowledge", they would have known the judge, GAL, and multiple law firms(Q&Q was small potatoes compared to these big boys/girls)that had total control over placement. The only reason my phone calls/contact could be controlled, under threat of jail, was that the Court was in complete control. My being in jail would have made me completely unavailable upon her graduation. Emotional screwballl? ok, I can own that, but if you all here truly want to put forth better solutions, it would have had to have been years before HLA was in the picture. With Patty Murphy in Bucci's pocket, and in cohoots with the GAL and the opposing law firm, there was no discussion on placement of "placement". Patty Murphy tried to bribe me with issues being negotiated in an ongoing lawsuit, for NOT placing, but as the ed consult had no knowledge of the lack of reliability of the parties, it was ludicrous to "trust" her interference.
Solutions people - parents are reading with kids in the early stages of these challenges and I challenge you all to address better solutions than the ones i was offerred!!!!
lacey’s mom, program parents whose kids were court ordered are not to blame for what the program did to their kids.
“Regular” people get steamrolled by the judiciary and law enforcement with regularity. That amounts to ongoing, socially accepted tyranny and violence perpetrated by the state against the vulnerable.
Consider suing not just Hidden Lake Academy, but all the corrupt govt. officials you mentioned.
Don’t mind the trolls. Whomever is this pg54 guy he knew who your daughter is..He's staff at Hidden Lake Academy and his words expose it for the gulag it is, whether he was responsible for these last few posts, or not.
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Lacey asked me to divulge the "thread" that got her to HLA. I thoughtthis would be a scenerio that would make it easier to her and help in your cause, which I support. I did not "join" the suit, as I was still being sued and it would have only prolonged the multiple suits against me.
To honor my daughter's wishes, I will do the thread privately with her and then if she can help, whatever your causes are, I give her my blessing and will help her as I can.
As to suing all these entities, Lacey would have to know the whole story and decide for herself, if in participating in that activity, it would not further hurt her.
Thank you for your kind words. There has been way hurt enough on so many people's parts and I wish I could have done more to help other's, but the health and well being of our family had to come first.
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For those of you here that truly are at tryingto get at the heart of this issue, transfer of liability is always the driving force. You are correct, the parent is the point of responsibility, but when you see you elementary school child slip from having always been an honor student(not a big deal, but an indicator of issues), first chair violin(not caring about their favorite talent, another indicator of issues), catcher on the softball team(getting hit by the ball rather than dominating the game, another indicator of issues), best in her dressage class(getting thrown from their horse, which never could have happened just weeks before, the hugest red flag!) and you go to the school or therapist for help, what you get are referrals. At the time, in your "clouded, concerned" state, you think you are getting help. So you follow the thread of referrals, to the insurance company, which follows the referrals from the school. You start down the road of IEPs. The IEPs escalate to removing "out of control" kids to a "better environment", which will be able to provide the required "services" to deliver the child's "constitutional right of the child to an education". Only way down this rotten road, later, do you realize that everyone was only out to "cover their ass", transfer liability off of themselves. The road is almost never short. It is years and many referrals later, you get ratchetted up to an involvement of the Judicial System, which only cares about controlling people to have a set point of maintaining the "norm". The school system protects from getting sued, the insurance company protects from getting sued, the Judicial System could care less about mixing "victums" with predators, so they mix rape victums with predators and then you get all the way through the inpatient hospitals and outpatient programs to finally, the ed consultant(which you don't know is in the pocket of the TBS) and you find yourself following these experts, to sending your kid to the "best" possible environment. The kid, given there are millions of dollars and non-caring other adults involved, who see an opportunity to manipulate and make themselves the center of attention, if they have been ignored all their life, by this other adult, figure that this other parent must really "care" and they tragically get pulled down this road. The TBS, seeing the piles of money available to them and seeing the convulated, complicated parental emotions involved, drools with anticipation to participate in a scenerio, that the longer they perpetuate the twisted scenerio, the more money they will make. What would be the TBS's motivation to "help" sort outthe twisted scenerio with the kid. If they did, NO MORE MONEY FOR THEM! This is true of the school sytem(theraputically trained persoonnel make way more then regular staff), the psychiatrists only make more money, the more complicated and serious their diagnosis. In today's society, this industry of "troubled families", broken families, is worth trillions. Society breeds, lack of respect for parents, lack of respect for morals or values, lack of respect for family structure, turn to the almighty "state for all your answers. They can "help". When the "experts, help", you lose all your power as a parent and you get caught in the web of, "it is not my fault". It is my fault. I do care and it is my responsibility for listening or trusting all these goons!
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Not to discourage you, but it matters little for you to put Bucci out of business. You think that the staff that interviewed me, made reccommondations, took control of a vunerable teen, took the tuition, asserted undo control over an entire traumatized family and played footsie with the teams of Washington D.C. lawyers, controlled by Judge Dugan, who relied on the word of the GAL, Suzanne Duclos, you think these people, these "staff", went off quietly into the night, to get a "real job"? The organization was made up of predator people. Those "highly trained experts" went somewhere and just becasue they are not with B anymore, does not mean they are not still practising the same raping of families. I say, the starting point is the school system that starts this problem, by inserting their authority, as a higher authority, in the child's life, over the parent's. Then when the child acts up, they turn on that child, start with their "helping experts", to invalidate the parent, who lacks the degrees, etc., in the "helping", healthcare field. I fought all the way up to the Superintendant of the school system that Lacey went to, with a adolescent attorney, in tow. I had fought for two years, 1998-2000, with my personal attorney, through both the school and taking it to District Court, to force the school system to appropriately, treat my daughter's health and well-being over the minority overage predator, who sexually harrassed her and made her school life a living hell. They had the gall to tell me that this predator had a "Civil Right to an Education and they were allowed to keep his criminal status a secret from the other parents, because he was disabled and had a "right to privacy". HLA was years down in the progression of events and by that time, the "decision process" had dozens of school figures, legal staff, therapy(I always loved Lacey's "the rapists) figures, psychiatrists down to social workers, and of course, don't forget, law enforcement, waiting in the wings to lock me or her up, if we crossed the line. At the end, all I could do was to fight to keep her from being legally deemed at 18, to not be held till 19(of course, the GAL warned, threatened, that should she suffer trauma due to my not participating with the process of keeping her a 18-19 year old, I would be held personally, LIABLE). I took my chances and when she graduated and dissapeared for a time, all I could do was pray. Today, those of you who know Lacey, she is an incredible person, wife, mother and professional. I hope to help her sort out the 25 year chain of events that led us all to these events, but I say to you all, the problem is the trillions of dollars involved in the Universities and Healthcare/Judicial professions that will NOT give this income up quietly. Your work belongs, organized to your Local, then State, then to you U.S. Legislators, to force them to listen to you and understand the problem and accpt, whatever solutions are proferred, have to be, WITH YOUR PARTICIPATION. You have to decide, from when the problem starts, what are better solutions, than just sitting her and bashing pathetic bottom feeders. They are only the happy recipients of all the other organizations, who pay very high-priced lawyers, to defer, RISK! I DO NOT PRETEND TO KNOW THE ANSWERS OR I WOULD HAVE DONE IT ALREADY. I DO KNOW THE PROBLEM. WE LIVED IT AS A FAMILY.
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My exposure to this long, horrible experience, taught me one huge piece of information, I would have never known. Lacey, as probably most of you are, those who were "students", represent, the "best and brightest", from our society. If you could have been easily "controlled", mentally or physically, there would have been, no problem. Lacey was exponentially, way over and above me, her peers, the school workers, the healtcare workers, who tried to control her, hence the problems. They best you as kids, metaphorically speaking. The only way to protect, the highest value our planet has, you, is to group up and come back at these pathetic control freaks and beat them at their own game, for the sole purpose of having those brilliant, vibrant, whacky kids coming behind you, to not be medicated, controlled or "labelled" and stuck out in the woods to be "used" by sicko, experts. I know, I was one of you, back in the 60's, but it was a different world back then.
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First, did you (lacey's mom) ever graduate from high school? your ramblings are incoherent. please look over them and make them make sense. good grammar and spelling is unnecessary, it's the internet. but clean that shit shit up, it's digusting how many commas you put in. You took five sentences and merged them into one, sometimes skipping from one subject to another within the same sentence.
second, theres more to this story than what your're telling us.
third, I'm well aware of the problems within public schools. WHY NOT JUST MOVE TO ANOTHER DISTRICT? or send her to a private school as soon as she started fucking up? or send her out of the country to a school in canada, switzerland, or england? You obviously had plenty of money to lawyers and HLA. why not spend that money on a quality traditional private boarding school? heck, that's half the reason boarding schools exist! even if she was court ordered to NOT be allowed those options, are you going to let that get in the way? WTF did lacey do that was so bad she sentenced to a jail term? go to another state, and dont come back. they cant touch you. why would you even want to remain in a state that did such things to your family. you obviously had enough money for HLA, you have enough to move. not moving to keep your daughter out of jail is just plain selfish.
all i see is a very dumb, naive, overly-emotional or drunk mother who made some very ignorant choices in her life.
and you said lacey reacted to legal issues within the family that stemmed back from before she was born. So you're saying you brought a life into this world knowing that you did not have a stable family environment to provide? did you have her with a man you just divorced or something? ever heard of an abortion? or are you too self-righteous for one?
if you want us to understand what happened and be nice you should fix up your posts so we can actually comprehend whats going on. a suggestion would be to take your time, dont try to stuff 25 years worth of information into a single sentence.
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At no point in time did i ever participate in the manipulation of families. I joined HLA because it seemed like a nice place (on the surface) which was located just a few miles from where i live. I wanted to help troubled kids. I knew nothing about the corruption present at HLA before i joined. When i found out, i tried to change things, make things more ethical and less damaging. when i realized that was futile, i quit. Before i left, i went so far as to collect phone numbers of parents and make phone calls to them to expose what was really going on at HLA. I was hung up on all but twice, those two kids were pulled within 24 hours of me talking to their parent. As one guest poster recently commented: there were good staff and bad staff, the whole range. I like to think of myself as a good staff, the few kids that remember me from HLA agree wholeheartedly. When i left HLA, I took a job teaching european history at a local high school and another job working at a halfway house in atlanta for orphaned juvenile offenders.
again, the post with the ideological farmer joe with five kids is not me, i have only two teenage kids and i'm definitely not a farmer.
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Lacey and her mom have a compelling story to tell. It's going to take a lot more than a few posts in this thread to describe their circumstances and the events leading up to Lacey's stay at HLA.
It's a fascinating story about greed, corruption, money, power and the railroading of a teenaged girl for fun and profit. Trust me, you'll want to hear the whole story and to look over the legal documents surrounding it.
You will see how the confluence of greed, money and power damaged Lacey's life. She was held against her will and against the wishes of her parents by HLA and Len used his money and power (and Q&Q) to influence legal custody of this poor girl and to extract a hundred thousand dollars or so from her parents.
I don't want to talk too much out of school, so I'll let Lacey lay this out as she feels fit, but I assure you, what was done to this girl by HLA and an EdCon is a travesty and devastating indictment of Len's morals, ethics and professional judgment.
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^^bump^^
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Lacey and her mom have a compelling story to tell.
It's a fascinating story about greed, corruption, money, power and the railroading of a teenaged girl for fun and profit. Trust me, you'll want to hear the whole story and to look over the legal documents surrounding it.
You will see how the confluence of greed, money and power damaged Lacey's life. She was held against her will and against the wishes of her parents by HLA and Len used his money and power (and Q&Q) to influence legal custody of this poor girl and to extract a hundred thousand dollars or so from her parents.
That will be illuminating.^
To Lacey’s mom:
I think the perspective of a parent’s experiences with the TTI is an important aspect of the discussion.
I’m sorry for all your family has been through. I applaud your strength for speaking out. I look forward to your insights.
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First, did you (lacey's mom) ever graduate from high school? your ramblings are incoherent. please look over them and make them make sense. good grammar and spelling is unnecessary, it's the internet. but clean that shit shit up, it's digusting how many commas you put in. You took five sentences and merged them into one, sometimes skipping from one subject to another within the same sentence.
hmmm - so I will just write, stream of thought in some answers here - I don't know how to do the whole quote reply thing yet, so this will have to do...
answers - to your considerate question...no, not only did I NOT go to high school, I had NO benefit of ANY schooling...my own story, too long for this forum..it did not prevent me from "faking it till I could make it"(obviously, "making it" is always in the eye of the beholder), working full-time at 14 -going to night school for years to try and get the society desired holy pieces of paper - owning my own boutique in Topanga Canyon at 17 and transitioning to budget analyst/software support (1979 - 1984) hardware installer and moving up to being the most senior analyst, in the company I was with, amongst a group of all men, degreed engineers, by 1984, before I left to solely focus on raising my family....I respect education and tried to focus my kids on same, but in my business, the ole saying was, "those that can't do, teach" - I allowed my self NO excuses, I was going to be self-sufficient...sorry for not "communicating to your standards, but forgiving the excuse of no formal education, this subject matter is still quite raw for me...this is the 8th anniversary of putting my child, Aug 15th, 2001, on a plane to "trust other people in another part of the country to "help" my child, where I would not have "control"...having lost Lacey's younger brother when he was 14 years old, due to high-risk behavior, I was an overprotective, at home, single-parent mom, I leveraged everything I had at my disposal to solely focus on raising my children....again, sorry for the challenging writing...
second, theres more to this story than what your're telling us. (geee, you think? trying to share that which might be helpful, while protecting Lacey, is challenging......
I'll follow - up on your other questions in another post...so as to make these not too long....
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"third, I'm well aware of the problems within public schools. WHY NOT JUST MOVE TO ANOTHER DISTRICT? or send her to a private school as soon as she started fucking up? or send her out of the country to a school in canada, switzerland, or england? You obviously had plenty of money to lawyers and HLA. why not spend that money on a quality traditional private boarding school? heck, that's half the reason boarding schools exist! even if she was court ordered to NOT be allowed those options, are you going to let that get in the way? WTF did lacey do that was so bad she sentenced to a jail term? go to another state, and dont come back. they cant touch you. why would you even want to remain in a state that did such things to your family. you obviously had enough money for HLA, you have enough to move. not moving to keep your daughter out of jail is just plain selfish. "
To answer...when we lost Lacey's bother, July 4th,1983, the death affected both parents, extremely....the marriage had been very bad and destructive and now, with no children, I should have left then, but if I had, no Lacey...the desperate actions taken(a prolonged unbelievable confession by Lacey's father aug 23rd, 1983) to keep me in the that marriage, arguably, left me "not of sound mind"? The promise, to make up for the betrayals, was for me to have the family I always wanted...should I have run for my life? hindsight is 20/20 and of course, I should have, but I didn't..I had Lacey's older brother July 31st 1984 and by 12/85 filed for divorce for the sole purpose to gett he family help...no one would listen..we had a brief week reconciliation at the Disneyland hotel, 1/86......hence Lacey....by May the drinking and abuse was life threatening, I allowed the Sptember 28th court date to stand and made plans to get out with a two yr old and 9 months pregnant...Lacey's father is close to 20 years older, many degrees more educated, and held all the assets and skeet guns in his possession....excuses? I don't know anymore, I felt I was running for my life and by this time, I was so emotionally beaten down, I fought for what was most important to me, my children - he got the assets, I got the children.....I thought it would stop there...move? transfer to private? all the suggesstions were perfectly reasonable, in a reasonable situation, this was not..the clever legal actions I had to take, to get Lacey out of our states clutches, was the best I could pull off...it was a very complicated school/court/therapeutic fiasco, but I did manage to get her "out of harm's way" to Utah..obviously, much more complicated, but that is enough here......
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all i see here is attempted justification for complete and utter stupidity. NO education? really? why are you raising kids then? MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO! now your daughter IS FOLLOWING THE SAME EXACT PATH AS YOU!!!!!!!! (with just a few extra years of high school and a year of college under her belt....these days thats the exact equivalent of the education you went through). Falling for a man twenty years older than you? on completely different financial ground? WOW! THATS SMAAART!!! GOLDDIGGER!
Considering you had zero education, it's now absolutely clear to me how you were hoodwinked by the legal system. The System is designed to keep stupid people down and profit off them while allowing the smart ones through. From what it sounds like, you were scammed, and were too stupid to figure out a way out properly like normal people do. NO! you DID have a CHOICE. you made the WRONG CHOICES because you are TOO FUCKING STUPID to figure out the basics of life and also the legal system. you got the kids and husband got the assests? either you were too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense, or you were just too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense. PERIOD. now your daughter, "lacey", is following in your footsteps, raising a fucked up family way too early, not getting an education, and getting hoodwinked by the system (her mortgage, cough cough!).
I have come to the conclusion that lacey's mom has nothing of value to say. she's from the bottommest rung of society - the uneducated, illiterate baffoons who start families when they are teens. she cant even express the simple ideas she has without sounding like a rambling drunk, even when she tries her hardest not to. YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELF TO BLAME!!!!!!!! HLA was just one of a long line of scams lacey's mom fell for, and i dont blame her. she's the dumbest of the dumb, the bottom of the bottom, among the most brainless of the brainless.
i'm not a pro-hla troll. I hate the place as much as anyone else. I just cant stand illiterate uneducated fools who blame other people for their own problems.
I especially cant stand fools who drop out of high school or college and start families as teenagers, expecting their husbands to pick up all the intellectual slack, and thinking life will be "just dandy!" when they have kids. yea. right.
you dug your own hole lacey's mom. deal with the consequences. dont come here with your drunken anti-system tirades, you dont even have the slightest clue how the system works. You just let one person after the other tell you things, and you believed everyone. HLA is just one of a long line of scams you were fucked on....PURELY BECAUSE YOU ARE DUMB AS A ROCK. dont bother coming back here untill you get your fucking diploma.
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you are dumb as a ROCK.
haha. clever....nice pun!!
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all i see here is attempted justification for complete and utter stupidity. NO education? really? why are you raising kids then? MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO! now your daughter IS FOLLOWING THE SAME EXACT PATH AS YOU!!!!!!!! (with just a few extra years of high school and a year of college under her belt....these days thats the exact equivalent of the education you went through). Falling for a man twenty years older than you? on completely different financial ground? WOW! THATS SMAAART!!! GOLDDIGGER!
Considering you had zero education, it's now absolutely clear to me how you were hoodwinked by the legal system. The System is designed to keep stupid people down and profit off them while allowing the smart ones through. From what it sounds like, you were scammed, and were too stupid to figure out a way out properly like normal people do. NO! you DID have a CHOICE. you made the WRONG CHOICES because you are TOO FUCKING STUPID to figure out the basics of life and also the legal system. you got the kids and husband got the assests? either you were too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense, or you were just too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense. PERIOD. now your daughter, "lacey", is following in your footsteps, raising a fucked up family way too early, not getting an education, and getting hoodwinked by the system (her mortgage, cough cough!).
I have come to the conclusion that lacey's mom has nothing of value to say. she's from the bottommest rung of society - the uneducated, illiterate baffoons who start families when they are teens. she cant even express the simple ideas she has without sounding like a rambling drunk, even when she tries her hardest not to. YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELF TO BLAME!!!!!!!! HLA was just one of a long line of scams lacey's mom fell for, and i dont blame her. she's the dumbest of the dumb, the bottom of the bottom, among the most brainless of the brainless.
i'm not a pro-hla troll. I hate the place as much as anyone else. I just cant stand illiterate uneducated fools who blame other people for their own problems.
I especially cant stand fools who drop out of high school or college and start families as teenagers, expecting their husbands to pick up all the intellectual slack, and thinking life will be "just dandy!" when they have kids. yea. right.
you dug your own hole lacey's mom. deal with the consequences. dont come here with your drunken anti-system tirades, you dont even have the slightest clue how the system works. You just let one person after the other tell you things, and you believed everyone. HLA is just one of a long line of scams you were fucked on....PURELY BECAUSE YOU ARE DUMB AS A ROCK. dont bother coming back here untill you get your fucking diploma.
I love stupid people with dumb educations like yourself, that think they are so educated as to tell anyone else to come back when they get a diploma, lol, you should come back when you go back to grammar school. So educated you are---- that's, Smart, Gold Digger, bottommost, buffoons, I, don't , I'm, until, Lacey, all spelled wrong you moron. Thinks you should lay off the sauce yourself when posting. I see education has done marvels for you. :rofl: :roflmao: :moon:
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all i see here is attempted justification for complete and utter stupidity. NO education? really? why are you raising kids then? MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO! now your daughter IS FOLLOWING THE SAME EXACT PATH AS YOU!!!!!!!! (with just a few extra years of high school and a year of college under her belt....these days thats the exact equivalent of the education you went through). Falling for a man twenty years older than you? on completely different financial ground? WOW! THATS SMAAART!!! GOLDDIGGER!
Considering you had zero education, it's now absolutely clear to me how you were hoodwinked by the legal system. The System is designed to keep stupid people down and profit off them while allowing the smart ones through. From what it sounds like, you were scammed, and were too stupid to figure out a way out properly like normal people do. NO! you DID have a CHOICE. you made the WRONG CHOICES because you are TOO FUCKING STUPID to figure out the basics of life and also the legal system. you got the kids and husband got the assests? either you were too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense, or you were just too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense. PERIOD. now your daughter, "lacey", is following in your footsteps, raising a fucked up family way too early, not getting an education, and getting hoodwinked by the system (her mortgage, cough cough!).
I have come to the conclusion that lacey's mom has nothing of value to say. she's from the bottommest rung of society - the uneducated, illiterate baffoons who start families when they are teens. she cant even express the simple ideas she has without sounding like a rambling drunk, even when she tries her hardest not to. YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELF TO BLAME!!!!!!!! HLA was just one of a long line of scams lacey's mom fell for, and i dont blame her. she's the dumbest of the dumb, the bottom of the bottom, among the most brainless of the brainless.
i'm not a pro-hla troll. I hate the place as much as anyone else. I just cant stand illiterate uneducated fools who blame other people for their own problems.
I especially cant stand fools who drop out of high school or college and start families as teenagers, expecting their husbands to pick up all the intellectual slack, and thinking life will be "just dandy!" when they have kids. yea. right.
you dug your own hole lacey's mom. deal with the consequences. dont come here with your drunken anti-system tirades, you dont even have the slightest clue how the system works. You just let one person after the other tell you things, and you believed everyone. HLA is just one of a long line of scams you were fucked on....PURELY BECAUSE YOU ARE DUMB AS A ROCK. dont bother coming back here untill you get your fucking diploma.
Typically the more educated a person is the more open they are to the differences and variations from person to person. Being a good person, compassionate parent is independent of education. Laceys mom indicated that she worked her way up through the system on her own, which is a lot tougher than cruising thru high school and college, I give her credit.
You on the other hand may have graduated from high school or even college but it is obvious that you slept thru most of it by the way you express yourself in writing. You have been poorly educated yourself so I wouldn’t point fingers. I highlighted your references to education and intelligence (in your above post, not including your unlimited use of profanity) which seems to be a sore spot with you and you seem to struggle with yourself. If you compare how laceys mother communicated her thoughts with how you communicated yours she shows a much superior understanding of the language and more compassion towards others.
Try to be more open minded with other people and the paths they have taken. We are all different and have had different obstacles in out lives.
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all i see here is attempted justification for complete and utter stupidity. NO education? really? why are you raising kids then? MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO! now your daughter IS FOLLOWING THE SAME EXACT PATH AS YOU!!!!!!!! (with just a few extra years of high school and a year of college under her belt....these days thats the exact equivalent of the education you went through). Falling for a man twenty years older than you? on completely different financial ground? WOW! THATS SMAAART!!! GOLDDIGGER!
Considering you had zero education, it's now absolutely clear to me how you were hoodwinked by the legal system. The System is designed to keep stupid people down and profit off them while allowing the smart ones through. From what it sounds like, you were scammed, and were too stupid to figure out a way out properly like normal people do. NO! you DID have a CHOICE. you made the WRONG CHOICES because you are TOO FUCKING STUPID to figure out the basics of life and also the legal system. you got the kids and husband got the assests? either you were too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense, or you were just too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense. PERIOD. now your daughter, "lacey", is following in your footsteps, raising a fucked up family way too early, not getting an education, and getting hoodwinked by the system (her mortgage, cough cough!).
I have come to the conclusion that lacey's mom has nothing of value to say. she's from the bottommest rung of society - the uneducated, illiterate baffoons who start families when they are teens. she cant even express the simple ideas she has without sounding like a rambling drunk, even when she tries her hardest not to. YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELF TO BLAME!!!!!!!! HLA was just one of a long line of scams lacey's mom fell for, and i dont blame her. she's the dumbest of the dumb, the bottom of the bottom, among the most brainless of the brainless.
i'm not a pro-hla troll. I hate the place as much as anyone else. I just cant stand illiterate uneducated fools who blame other people for their own problems.
I especially cant stand fools who drop out of high school or college and start families as teenagers, expecting their husbands to pick up all the intellectual slack, and thinking life will be "just dandy!" when they have kids. yea. right.
you dug your own hole lacey's mom. deal with the consequences. dont come here with your drunken anti-system tirades, you dont even have the slightest clue how the system works. You just let one person after the other tell you things, and you believed everyone. HLA is just one of a long line of scams you were fucked on....PURELY BECAUSE YOU ARE DUMB AS A ROCK. dont bother coming back here untill you get your fucking diploma.
Typically the more educated a person is the more open they are to the differences and variations from person to person. Being a good person, compassionate parent is independent of education. Laceys mom indicated that she worked her way up through the system on her own, which is a lot tougher than cruising thru high school and college, I give her credit.
You on the other hand may have graduated from high school or even college but it is obvious that you slept thru most of it by the way you express yourself in writing. You have been poorly educated yourself so I wouldn’t point fingers. I highlighted your references to education and intelligence (in your above post, not including your unlimited use of profanity) which seems to be a sore spot with you and you seem to struggle with yourself. If you compare how laceys mother communicated her thoughts with how you communicated yours she shows a much superior understanding of the language and more compassion towards others.
Try to be more open minded with other people and the paths they have taken. We are all different and have had different obstacles in out lives.
Thank you guest. very well written, Peace! :peace: :flip: :rose:
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the guest you are congratulating is none other than thewho, who obviously doesn't practice what he preaches. if the post were about lacey instead of her mom (program parent) thewho would have laid into lacey as well, like he does with all abuse survivors. "first, blame the child."
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First off, I was 30 when pregnant with Lacey. Hardly a pregnant teen. If I wanted the money, I'd have stayed in that hell, let the live-in housekeeper raise the kids, gone on all the corporate jaunts and be the cute little "trophy wife" with the two beautiful children. I had it made and to stay in the style to which I was acustomed, was an option and a hard one to give up. I could have turned a "blind eye" to betrayals and the definate coming damage to the children, to protect my "comfortable" life. I enjoyed traveling first class around the world and struggled incredibly with my condition at the time, would I be the best person for the kids to be with? Of course I debated seriously with what was the better of obviously, two evils. At 53, I have broad shoulders. You have incredible anger and to the end of working that out, if you need to rant at me, oh well. As for being a drunk, again, as I know I have said this before, I started in Al-Anon in 1984. I didn't dink through either of my pregnancies, but the moment the children were born and the in house nurse and housekeeper were there to "cover" things, I drank heavily. I did not make the decision to seperate drinking. I seperated 9/23/86 - court was 9/28 - moved to a much downsized lifestyle and was in the hospital to have my child by c-sect a few days later...with both kids, I was very sick afterwards. I do not need anyone's sympathy. I do appreciate the empathy shown by some, but after 53 years of a very hard life, I take responsibility for my part in whatever bad choices I made. As of April 28th 1989, I have been sober. It took many 24 hour chips for me to get sober, starting in 1987...am I a drunk? once a pickle, I say, always a pickle...that one, you never get to undo..Lacey spent all her young life going to AA mtgs...
I would put Lacey's elementary education and life experience up against your ignorant world view, anyday! I may not be the best typest/speller/grammer person, but I have learned alot about mean-spirited people. One of the issues was, in middle school when all the IEP crap started, the "testing" began. She tested out at a college level of intellectual understanding of ideas. Coming from a great-grandmother, who was an university trained opera singer, and coming from a long line of graduate level educated family, except me, it was not a suprise to me, her level of development. You are right, she and I do have alot in common. The STUPID? simple belief? hope? that people, for no reason, would hurt you. I have never been able to proccess that and still don't. After all the hurt and violation, I claim the right, to trust. but verify. Lacey is a great mother and I don't know how old you are, but when my grandson goes off to college, she and her husband will be young enough to go travel the world and enjoy life. I am proud of her and have great respect for the responsibility she has shown towards the challenges come her way. She has "posted" to be accountable and your slander of her good life is beneath you. I'm not sure how much my sharing is helping Lacey. I will check with her, if I should write anything more....
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all i see here is attempted justification for complete and utter stupidity. NO education? really? why are you raising kids then? MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO! now your daughter IS FOLLOWING THE SAME EXACT PATH AS YOU!!!!!!!! (with just a few extra years of high school and a year of college under her belt....these days thats the exact equivalent of the education you went through). Falling for a man twenty years older than you? on completely different financial ground? WOW! THATS SMAAART!!! GOLDDIGGER!
Considering you had zero education, it's now absolutely clear to me how you were hoodwinked by the legal system. The System is designed to keep stupid people down and profit off them while allowing the smart ones through. From what it sounds like, you were scammed, and were too stupid to figure out a way out properly like normal people do. NO! you DID have a CHOICE. you made the WRONG CHOICES because you are TOO FUCKING STUPID to figure out the basics of life and also the legal system. you got the kids and husband got the assests? either you were too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense, or you were just too fucking stupid to put up a proper defense. PERIOD. now your daughter, "lacey", is following in your footsteps, raising a fucked up family way too early, not getting an education, and getting hoodwinked by the system (her mortgage, cough cough!).
I have come to the conclusion that lacey's mom has nothing of value to say. she's from the bottommest rung of society - the uneducated, illiterate baffoons who start families when they are teens. she cant even express the simple ideas she has without sounding like a rambling drunk, even when she tries her hardest not to. YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELF TO BLAME!!!!!!!! HLA was just one of a long line of scams lacey's mom fell for, and i dont blame her. she's the dumbest of the dumb, the bottom of the bottom, among the most brainless of the brainless.
i'm not a pro-hla troll. I hate the place as much as anyone else. I just cant stand illiterate uneducated fools who blame other people for their own problems.
I especially cant stand fools who drop out of high school or college and start families as teenagers, expecting their husbands to pick up all the intellectual slack, and thinking life will be "just dandy!" when they have kids. yea. right.
you dug your own hole lacey's mom. deal with the consequences. dont come here with your drunken anti-system tirades, you dont even have the slightest clue how the system works. You just let one person after the other tell you things, and you believed everyone. HLA is just one of a long line of scams you were fucked on....PURELY BECAUSE YOU ARE DUMB AS A ROCK. dont bother coming back here untill you get your fucking diploma.
You know... I don't know why I'm being brought into this particular discussion. These personal attacks on me and my family are unwarrented and ugly. I don't know who you are or why you think you know so much about my life. My mortgage? I don't have one. My education level is irrelevant to the fight against hidden lake, the family I am raising is irrelevant to the fight against hidden lake, and so are these hypothetical truths you are purporting on this board. My husband has to pick up the intellectual slack? You've got to be joking.
Besides a one sentance post I made since my mother started posting here, I have left this board alone. This is an issue I cannot remain neutral on, and in most areas don't agree with her on. So instead of negatively impacting an important relationship, I said nothing. I don't know the truth of my history, or hers, so I can't make any statements about anything she's posted on. So I don't.
Redonkulus (or whatever), instead of attacking me or my life, which truly has absolutely nothing to do with you, why don't we try to stay on topic here. The fact that I'm a mother, or married, or didn't finish college, is truly none of your business. And you know what? Those things have no bearing on my posting here telling the truth about what happend to me at Hidden Lake. I can't imagine what you get out of attempting to rip me apart like that, especially when I see nothing you could possibly gain being a supporter of our cause here. So if that is in fact true, keep my personal life the fuck off the board. I didn't put it there, and if my mother did, talk to her about it. Maybe I will too.
I want no fucking part of this. Whoever you are, you are a sad, sad individual.
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You tell them Lacey. Good for you, Peace to you and family! :peace: :rose:
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Lacey and Lacey’s mom I truly believe you have found your way here to fornits for a reason and it is important that your story be told separately and in parallel. I can tell from your voices that you are writing from the heart and are truthful with your words. I think that you have both met enough people to know that we judge others first by instinct not open mindedness or compassion. I wish this wasnt so but it seems to be a natural instinct. What you may not know is that the harsher we judge ourselves, as individuals, the harsher we judge others and the faults we denounce in other people are usually our own negativities projected outward. Judgment arises from the ego and its negative emotions can be toxic at times….. your posting will continue to strike a nerve with all readers but don’t take the responding posting personally as it is merely an echo calling back to its originator. Many are just beating themselves up not you.
I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I know how personal these feelings are and how hard they are to share with others whom you have never met. I look forward to reading more......
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Lacey the same sadistic chuckle heads who took got off on power trips over kids who had been locked up are just bitter now that it doesnt work anymore. You and I and everyone else who actually experienced that places knows what it was, knows what they did, knows why they did it, and knows the excuses they gave. Karma is a fickle friend and these kiddie abusers and their supporters are now getting exactly what they deserve. Pay them no mind, you know the truth, and things have a way of working themselves out in the end.
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bump. pretty interesting thread.
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I withdrew from here for a short while to work out the family issues that spurred from my mother posting here. I asked her not to post for a while because I know the kind of attacks and opinions her posts bring. The same ones that did when she posted here back in '06. My mother is a very... complicated person. Her life has been hard, and her communication skills aren't always in sync with the way other people communicate. This can be misinterpreted as ignorance or naivity.
She has some very important things that I believe this board and even myself need to hear. I am in the process of procuring documents from my time at Hidden Lake that were involved in my parents very very ugly divoce/custody battle that ranged from the mid to late 80's and continued on until I, the youngest of the children, turn 18. At that point, I was no longer leverage to either party and was for the most part left alone. But that doesn't clear up the history. Bringing things to light about Hidden Lake is of course a huge motive behind my wanting these documents from their divorce. But the secondary concern of mine is the truth I have been denied since all this mess started. Way, way before anyone decided to ship me off to a gulag.
So I ask for everyone's patience while my family comes to a place of stablity to where we can paint an accurate picture of what truly happened in the four years I was away, and HLA's part in all of it. Bucci's greed directly played off of the scenario my family found itself in, and he leveraged as much cash as possible out of both sides of my family. Q&Q got themselves involved and achieved awarding partial custody to a father who had already been investigated by Child Protective Services. He had never had custody in my then 15 years of life. He had lived in a state thousands of miles away my enitre childhood, and yet when the bill had to get paid, and one parent did not want me there, custody was then granted to the cashcow, my father. The direct opposite of my stay at home single mother, with NO assets at all, who WAS a fit mother. They played us all, and kept the cash flowing for all 23 months of my stay, with complete and utter disregard for my best interest.
No one is innocent in this story, and everyone had their part. I'll get the docs together, and see what I can find, because my view of the scenario was limited. What I do know, is the Judge presiding over the custody hearing is the same Judge Dugan who rejected a protective order to an abusive ex husband when he threatened to murder his children. He then did, weeks later in a Baltimore hotel, drowning all three kids.(http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2008 ... gedy35932/ (http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2008/apr/03/familys_drift_tragedy35932/)) He also ruled in favor of my father, and HLA's best interest.
But as I said. Story's coming, but vacation this week. I'll work to get everything together.