Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 17, 2005, 09:57:00 AM
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My father worked at Arizona Boys Ranch for nearly a decade even when all this "abuse" investigations went on. I grew up around that ranch in Oracle and the ranch branch in Williams. NEVER ONCE did I EVER witness abuse or even signs of abuse to these boys. They took field trips, had fairs and carnivals, and had one of very best football teams in the state (many of the players went on to college with full scholarships after graduation). They also received the best education-I didnt even receive the quality of education that these boys did. i am sick of the millions of biased websites out there that have no clue what goes on at these ranches. Have you forgotten why these teens are there in the first place?? Most are criminals-Juvenile delinquents!!! They have comitted horiffic crimes and the state decided that this ranch offered them a second chance. However, just sending them there doesn't automatically change their personalitites-they must be taught. They arrive at the ranch thinking they are immortal and that they will never change. I have seen these boys, who think they are men, attempt to run away, harm staff members, vandalize property.....but within day, weeks, sometimes months, they learn respect and appreciation. I think these organizations have the best of intentions and are extremely beneficial. There have only been two accidental deaths associated with ABR. (Now don't reply to me with facts about these deaths and say I don't know what I'm talking about. I have been researching these allegations and have read EVERYTHING related to the cases-reports, case files, autopsy reports, interviews, etc) The first death was caused by the own child's stupidity-he dove into a canal attempting to run away. Canals have strong currents and can travel for miles underground without resurfacing. He essentially comitted suicide by diving into it. Nick C. died during PT. Numerous times that day he acted as if he was passed out in efforts to escape his daily training. This caused him to receive additional PT and when he had actually passed out, staff memebers had no reason to believe he wasn't faking once again. Now it is true, he was sick but the ranch had excellent facilities for the sick and injured, and was treated several occassions. Now there are extremely elaborate stories of how Nick was treated before his death. These lies are not what the detectives discovered while investigating the ranch, but simply that-lies told by the boys there. So our justice system and public are choosing to believe these teenage criminals instead of staff members and witness--most of the staff memebrs at ABR have worked in our nation's military and law enforcement agencies. These stories of such horendous violence is not typical of brave men who courageously defend our innocence and freedom. Please note that all charges against ABR staff memebers reguarding Nick's death have been dropped or dismissed. Now if they were truely guilty, the State of AZ wouldn't have dropped the charges. And do not even attempt to say I am only here defending my father and the work he did there because that its true. My father and I are estranged, the reasons of our strained relationship has nothing to do with ABR and frankly, you need no more details. ABR has helped thousands of young men with their program. Maybe we should focus on the positive outcomes from this organization.
These boys' parents need to learn how to be better parents themselves. If they knew how to discipline their own children and had stricter household expectations, then these boys wouldn't need to be relocated to these disciplinary schools. Maybe we should look more to help for these parents in order to help these children.
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I have just one word for you:
BULLSHIT.
Nick Contreras is dead. He can't speak nor defend himself against your allegations that he is somehow to blame for his own death.
If you study this industry you will discover few, if any, program owners and operators have been held accountable for fatalities. The notable exception being Chuck Long II, who was convicted and is serving 6 years for the tortuous death of Tony Haynes, 14 (Buffalo Soldiers ReEnactment Association, ARIZONA).
:flame:
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Well, there you have it--- the son of a counselor said there was no abuse. Go back to sleep, nothing to see here folks.. it's all over. The issue has been solved--- the son of a counselor has set us all straight. :roll:
Like it was said above. BULLSHIT.
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Like I have said, I have thoroughly researched the cases surrounding the Arizona Boys Ranch. I frankly am not considered about any other ranch where fatalities have occurred--just ABR, so don't go off about other facilities cause I have not researched cases surrounding these facilities. But I know what I am talking about. The state has chosen not to prosecute the staff members because obviously the state finds them not at fault. And I believe as Americans we have the right to be innocence until PROVEN guilty. The state believes they are not able to even be changed, let alone guilty.
Oh, and FYI, I am the DAUGHTER of an ex-staff member. But you just ASSUME--you didn't know so you just assume, makes me wonder what else you have ASSUMED to be true in these cases. If you don't know information to 100% fact, you shouldn't address the topic at all. The same is true for these cases.
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:wstupid: :wstupid: :wstupid:
:tup: :tup: :em:
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FOR SEVERAL WEEKS before he died on March 2, 1998, Nicholaus Contreraz, age 16, was suffering from diarrhea and continuous vomiting. For days before his death, he was then made to carry around a trash can containing his vomit and the clothes he had defecated in.
Hours before he died, he was required to stretch out in a "hold" position with his feet on a desk and his face over a bucket of his own vomit.
Moments before he died, he was put into a wheelbarrow and required to make the sounds of an "ambulance." He was being wheeled to a volleyball game and, because he could not stand, the staff "assisted" him in getting the ball over the net.
At the moment of Nicholaus? death, staff threw a bucket of water on him.... They told him "it's all in your head." When he didn't respond, they took a closer look. He was dead.
An autopsy showed 2 1/2 quarts of pus in his partially collapsed left lung.
Abused children, whether privately incarcerated or in public facilities have no voice. Even when an event such as the death of a child occurs, they are afraid to tell what they know for fear of retribution. At the Arizona Boy's Camp, police department records show how hundreds of hours of onsite interviews failed to turn up anything more than suspicions... until finally the truth began to emerge. Children at the camp were afraid to tell the police how the staff tortured and humiliated Nicholas Contreraz until he died in agony.
Source: http://www.teenliberty.org (http://www.teenliberty.org)
http://www.teenliberty.org/Voices.htm (http://www.teenliberty.org/Voices.htm)
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Wow... What a devlopment... I dont check for a few hours and see what pops up.
Look daughter... I will call you that because you did not post your name or get a log in and there are so many anons.
Well daughter. You fucked up. I'm sorry, but in speaking up you brought up a horror second to none. Look at how the boy died. Look at what happened to him. Does that seem like it was his fault? Does that seem like its ok daughter? PT is hard, there is no arguing that, yet I say to you, that no one should be afraid of taking it, and no one should die doing it.
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Did he really die like that or is that some sensationalized story to shock? I just find it hard to believe that if that's what really happened that no one was held responsible. Is there something that is credible that we can read, not newspaper sensationalism?
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On 2005-09-17 22:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did he really die like that or is that some sensationalized story to shock? I just find it hard to believe that if that's what really happened that no one was held responsible. Is there something that is credible that we can read, not newspaper sensationalism? "
This is just one page of ten pages of search results...
The slow, painful, pointless death of Nicholaus Contreraz, age 16 ...
RUTZ ADVISED SHE HAD TWO CONTACTS WITH NICHOLAUS CONTRERAZ DURING HIS STAY ...
HOOVER WERE DOING NICHOLAUS CONTRERAZ WRONG. MR. CONTRERAZ WAS SICK AND THEY ...
http://www.nospank.net/azranch.htm (http://www.nospank.net/azranch.htm) - 94k - Cached - Similar pages
Investigation Summary--Investigation Of The Death Of A Nicholaus ...
The investigation into the death of Nicholaus Contreraz has resulted in a clear
picture of the operation of ABR. The findings, conclusions and ...
http://www.nospank.net/cpssum.htm (http://www.nospank.net/cpssum.htm) - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from http://www.nospank.net (http://www.nospank.net) ]
phoenixnewtimes.com | News | Medical Probe | 1998-07-16
... 16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz before he died of a massive infection. ...
is likely to have contributed directly to the death of Nicholaus Contreraz." ...
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/ (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/) Issues/1998-07-16/news/news.html - Supplemental Result - Similar pages
phoenixnewtimes.com | Medical Probe | 1998-07-16
... They're looking into the conduct of the nurse and doctor who examined
16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz before he died of a massive infection. ...
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1 ... /news.html (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1998-07-16/news.html) - 25k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com) ]
ON OTHER PAGES
The death of 16 year old Nicholaus Contreraz on 2 March 1998 at a private ...
Five boys alleged that staff members forced Nicholaus Contreraz to do push ups ...
http://www.psiru.org/justice/ppriarchiv ... -05-98.asp (http://www.psiru.org/justice/ppriarchive/ppri20-05-98.asp) - 144k - Cached - Similar pages
The Sacramento Bee: Who's Guarding The Kids?
Physical and mental abuse of juveniles was rampant at The Arizona boys ranch camp
where 16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz died, and The staff's "combination ...
http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ (http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/) news/projects/guarding_kids/folo_0709.html - Supplemental Result - Similar pages
Progressive, The: When "Tough Love" Kills - Murder at Boot camp ...
Nicholaus Contreraz was another "faker." At age sixteen, Contreraz was busted
while joyriding in a stolen car around Sacramento, California. ...
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/) mi_m1295/is_10_64/ai_65952691 - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Arizona Boy''s Ranch
[Image] Nicholaus Contreraz's mother said Saturday that the report shows that
the Arizona Boys Ranch "helped Nick into his grave. ...
http://www.prisonactivist.org/pipermail/ (http://www.prisonactivist.org/pipermail/) prisonact-list/1998-April/001748.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages
Brat Camp/the dark side Fornits' Home for Wayward Web Fora
the death of Nicholaus Contreraz http://www.nospank.net/azboys.htm (http://www.nospank.net/azboys.htm) quote: On the
day he died, Nicholaus Contreraz was awakened at 6:30 am he had been ...
fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic. php?topic=10820&forum=37&Sort=D - Supplemental Result - Similar pages
Camp Fear
... the staff made an incontinent 16-year-old boy, Nicholaus Contreraz, ...
On March 2, 1998, Contreraz collapsed repeatedly during strenuous physical ...
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature ... pfear.html (http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/11/campfear.html) - 45k - Cached - Similar pages
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5 INDICTED IN DEATH AT ARIZONA YOUTH RANCH
Courts: Former employees are accused of manslaughter and child
abuse in the case of a California offender whose complaints of illness
were reportedly dismissed.
An Arizona grand jury Thursday indicted five former employees of
Arizona Boys Ranch, charging that the four camp workers and a staff
nurse were responsible for the March 2 death of a Sacramento boy at
the paramilitary-style boot camp for juvenile offenders.
The indictments by the panel in Pinal County, southeast of Phoenix,
were the first criminal charges in the 7-month-old case, which has
brought about legislative changes, stricter licensing standards and
tougher oversight guidelines. The fallout from the death has also all
but closed the 50-year-old juvenile rehabilitation facility, which has
a national reputation.
The people charged were among those who worked most closely with
16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz, who died while being physically
punished. The boy was cleared for rigorous exercise, despite repeated
complaints to the nurse that he was ill.
Indicted were camp nurse Linda Babb and four "work specialists" -
Geoffrey Sean Lewis, Montgomery Clayton Hoover, Michael
Martin Moreno and Troy Michael Jones. Four of the defendants live in
Tucson, and Hoover is from Sierra Vista, about 60 miles southeast of
that city. Each was charged with one count of child abuse and one
count of manslaughter, and faces a maximum penalty of 12 1/2 years in
prison for each count. Arraignment was scheduled for Oct. 23.
Officials at the program--based in Queen Creek, about 30 miles
southeast of Phoenix--had no comment Thursday.
In the past they have characterized Contreraz's death at their Oracle
facility, north of Tucson, as a tragedy and blamed it on the actions
of a few employees who were then suspended.
Children's rights advocates and others were outraged by the death--the
second at the ranch, which has had more than 100 child abuse
complaints lodged against it in the last five years. Thursday's
decision did not completely appease the Contreraz family, which has
sued the Arizona agency that licensed the ranch.
Contreraz's grandmother, Connie Woodward of Sacramento, told the
Associated Press that the administrators who tolerated abuse should
also be held accountable.
"It's a great feeling, but it's not enough yet," she said of the
indictments. "At least we know they're not gonna just slap their hands
and walk away." Cathy Sutton, whose daughter died while attending a
Utah wilderness camp and monitors such boot camp deaths nationwide,
echoed that sentiment.
"They fire the staff and think they've taken care of the problem," she
said. "But administrators never seem to be held accountable."
Contreraz had been sent to the camp after stealing a car and running
away while in custody. The slender teenager spent the last week of his
life complaining of chest pain and difficulty breathing, but had been
identified by the staff as a malingerer and punished more when he
complained, authorities said.
When the boy sought medical attention, the camp nurse repeatedly sent
him back out with approval to engage in the stringent exercise
required of troublesome juveniles, according to a sheriff's report.
His condition worsened and he began to defecate on himself and vomit
frequently, the report said.
Among the indicted staff were those who the report described as having
belittled the youth, made him sleep in soiled underwear, made him eat
dinner while sitting on a toilet and ordered him to carry a trash
basket filled with his soiled clothes and his own vomit.
Contreraz eventually collapsed and died. The medical examiner
pinpointed the cause of death as empyema, a buildup of fluid in the
lining between the lungs and chest cavity. Contreraz was also
suffering from strep and staph infections, pneumonia and chronic
bronchitis. The coroner noted 71 cuts and bruises on the boy's body.
Contreraz's gruesome punishment and death sparked a debate in both
Arizona and California.
California had a policy of sending juvenile offenders to out-of-state
facilities that did not meet its own state licensing requirements.
Lawmakers in Sacramento have since passed legislation discouraging
out-of-state placements and begun bringing home about 1,000 juveniles
from facilities around the country.
The loss of California youths was a severe blow to Boys Ranch, which
relied on the state for three-fourths of its enrollment.
Since Contreraz's death, the seven-campus ranch has closed five sites
and laid off dozens of employees.
The Arizona Department of Economic Security in August denied the ranch
an operating license, citing a "pattern of abuse" in the Contreraz
case and attacking the program's core philosophy of physical restraint
and hands-on confrontation. The state agency also announced that 17
former staff members were being placed on the Arizona Child Abuser
Directory based on their treatment of Contreraz and others.
The ranch has appealed the ruling and this month replaced Bob Thomas,
the program's longtime president.
The FBI is continuing its own investigation of the death.
Copyright 1998 Los Angeles Times.
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Daughter, I can't say exactly what happened to this kid at ABR or who was personally involved. But I can tell you why I find those "sensational" reports to be credible.
First, by all accounts, ABR operated on a very similar toughlove philosopy to the progran I was in. At some point in my program, I ran away and wound up camping w/ a bunch of Jesus freaks at the Jesus `81 festival in Orlando. And I picked up a deep chest cold along the way. I had had long bouts of chronic bronchitis from time to time for as long as I can remember. This time, though, there was no rest. I couldn't walk fast, let alone run, w/o bringing on a frightening bout of asthma and coughing.
It felt like I was drowning and I often nearly fainted just from not being able to stop coughing long enough to draw enough breath to cough with. But they made me run anyway, even physically forcing me through the motions. That was the standard treatment. I didn't dare "talk out in group" to explain why I didn't want to run. That would have gotten me slammed on the floor. That would have made it even harder to breath.
So, for some months, I went along, doing the best I could to comply w/ a rigerous 12+ hr/day regimen. I used to "sleep" sitting up, leaning on a pillow against against a wall because I couldn't breath at all if I tried to lie down. This went on till I reached 5th phase; months, in other words! Finally, some staffer asked me if I wanted to take a day in the sick room. I slept hard there for about 10 hours.
I'm fortunate to have survived that. Of course, I didn't realize at the time what kind of danger I was in. I was brainwashed to a point where I honestly thought the teenagers who we called staff were responsible enough to send me to a doctor if I needed it. That they didn't was proof enough for me that it wasn't that serious. I could have died any old night while my newcomers and foster sisters slept. I just got lucky.
There was another girl there too at the time. She had some sort of kidney problems. I remember one day when I was on pretraining for staff, she complained of illness and asked to see a doctor. They refused, told her she was just trying to avoid herself to get out of group. She insisted. When the 5th phaser finally agreed to send up a chain of command through me, she (being allowed to talk and allowed to forbid the newcomer girl from giving her side of the story) tried to convince me that Charlotte was just faking to get out of group. I almost bought it, too, till I noticed that her lips were blue and she was barely able to keep her head up.
These things happen in this industry because the people in charge of these kids really are that delusional. They relly believe what they tell you, that all complaints are just manipulation, that all these kids deserve a little pain. No one locked up w/ them dares challenge their perception on any minor point. They get violent and mean when you threaten their illusions.
That's how kids keep dying. That's how it can happen over the course of days, weeks or months right in front of dozens of people and no one either see what's really happening or, if they do, to dare say so.
They never got to the heart of me because they assumed from the beginning they knew me.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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Obviously he wasn't acting - he died as a result of heat exposure - why don't you try exercising in 110 degree heat. See if you feel like passing out after an hour of so. The negligene that was demonstrated was so outrageous. To bring his lifeless body back without calling for emergency assistance was horrific. When he was found passed out and face down in the water - immediate resucitation efforts should have been initiated and 911 called. This was not done. Also it was extremely negligent to leave him alone in a bathtub when he was unconscious or semi-conscious. He should have been brought to the Emergency room instead of a hotel room. What happend to him defies reason and was extremely negligent. I believe that this was done to prevent licensed health care workers from reporting this abusive treatment to the authroities. This is often the case. The punishment that was given was not enough in my opinion.
If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
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On 2005-09-18 21:09:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"Obviously he wasn't acting - he died as a result of heat exposure - why don't you try exercising in 110 degree heat. See if you feel like passing out after an hour of so. The negligene that was demonstrated was so outrageous. To bring his lifeless body back without calling for emergency assistance was horrific. When he was found passed out and face down in the water - immediate resucitation efforts should have been initiated and 911 called. This was not done. Also it was extremely negligent to leave him alone in a bathtub when he was unconscious or semi-conscious. He should have been brought to the Emergency room instead of a hotel room. What happend to him defies reason and was extremely negligent. I believe that this was done to prevent licensed health care workers from reporting this abusive treatment to the authroities. This is often the case. The punishment that was given was not enough in my opinion. If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
"
The death of TONY HAYNES (who you are referring to) was horrific and yeah, the punishment was not nearly severe enough. What about the other guy who plea bargained? What did he get?
As for Nick Contreras, how anyone can say this boy was somehow responsible for his own death is beyond me. The kid was sick and in dire need of medical attention which came too late (he was already dead).
Remember the girl who was run to death at a state-run detention program in South Dakota? The program was sued by a major human rights organization which led to major reform ... just a shame somebody has to die to get the yahoos from the state/federal/local government to do their job. In fact, I'd say IT'S CRIMINAL that kids have to die to get the attention of the powers that be.
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<<< My father worked at Arizona Boys Ranch for nearly a decade even when all this "abuse" investigations went on. I grew up around that ranch in Oracle and the ranch branch in Williams. NEVER ONCE did I EVER witness abuse or even signs of abuse to these boys. They took field trips, had fairs and carnivals, and had one of very best football teams in the state (many of the players went on to college with full scholarships after graduation).>>>
Not surprising they had a good HS football team with Frank Kush involved with ABS. His teams at ASU won a lot of games because he was a good coach. But also because they were afraid to lose, because Kush and his staff would basically put the Sun Devils through torture if they lost. There was a reason ASU had to fire him back in 1978. Now Kush is at a place where there's even less oversight, and he's working with kids who deserve the "harsh" treatment. Not surprising an abusive coach would help head up an abusive program that killed a kid.
At least Coach Kush took his Sun Devils to Camp Tontozona for preseason practice so the team wouldn't drop like flies in the incredibly hot Arizona weather.
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Nospank.com is not a credible source as you suggest. It is the same half-truth, blinded site, much like this one here. If you would have kept up on these cases, you would see that all of the staff members, except the nurse, spent no time in jail for these fabricated exaggerations. The nurse received blemishes on her record but is still able to practice medicine. Do you know why these people aren't in jail for this "HORRENDOUS" crime?? Because they did absolutley nothing wrong. The nurse is not able to diagnose a rancher with anything, and the boys were transported to the hospital to see the doctor when the nurse was unable to help them. I know---my dad usually was the one to transport these delinquents. The nurse was only allowed BY LAW to administer over the counter medications.
If this whole murdurous catastrophe is true, then why didn't the other boys there at the ranch at this time say anything. And don't give me that they were scared, ABR is now closed, these "horrible" staff memebrs can't do anything to them. What is keeping this "eye-witnesses" from speaking to detectives and helping with the investigations now???? Ummmm....maybe because no of it ever happened!! They didn't take Contreraz into a separate room, either. PT is done outside (weather permitting)--in plain view for the world to see. I have contacted former staff members, and graduated ranchers who all say none of this ever happened. Contreraz was a liar and a fake--everyone thought he was up to his usual antics of crying wolf. I wouldn't have believed him had I been there. None of these boys can be trusted, at any time---you have to remember why they are even there. They are criminals, juvenile delinquents!! The moment you trust them is the moment they screw you over and mess up again.
Most of the exaggerations surrounding Contreraz's death is straight from these criminals' mouths. Whether they were seeking money, attention, revenge...I don't know but innocent people have been tragically affected for their selfishness. These ranches can turn these children's lives around and allow them to have a successful future, but pig-headed, arrogant people much like yourselves prevent these children from receiving the second chance these facilities provide!! Where do you suggest these children go now for their second chance?? They have none-its jail-you pigs have shut down every facility because its tough!!! So you suggest counseling and medication?!?!? Yeah, like thats going to work! Here pop a pill and all your rage, and aggression and sins will vanish!! WHATEVER!!
Newspapers are allowed to print whatever their hearts desire. They have no code of conduct and their stories don't have to true because our country has freedom of speech(and thank God for it. Without it, I wouldn't be able to stand here defending a subject that no one else takes the time to defend--its so much easier to bash the topic). Editors and journalists are sleazy and slimy. They will print anything if a deadline is approaching, and why not print some intresting dirt on a national topic.
I like have said, most of these staff members at ABR were former military and law enforcement officers. They have honor, respect, and a passion for the citizens of this nation. These events do not sound typical for a man of this nature. I know, my father never treated anyone that cruel and would never be associated with other men comitting those hateful actions.
Tough love is the only way to reach those boys, and they need help. ABR was willing to offer that. Yes, Contreraz died at ABR, but people have died at Knott's Berry Farm from a heart attack on their thrill rides, yet they are able to operate still.
It's no wonder our nation is turning out the way it is without such facilities to correct these children's. I blame this nation's crime problems on people such as yourselves. May you bear the burden of knowing you are damning these children's future and possibilities.
"DAUGHTER"
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Nic did not die of heat exersion, the autopsy report concluded that his death was a cause of an undiagnosed lung condition that he had arrived at the ranch with. The nurse cannot diagnose any conditions and had the staff deemed his conditions serious (note: all the conidtions your websites state occrrued, are not full truths) would have transported himm to the local hospital.
ABR (NOT ABS as some have called it) had a leading football team, and it is true that the coach may have been a little tough. But aren't all football coaches?? You think he's going to sit the team down and have brunch with them to discuss what they did wrong?? I don't think so! All coaches use intimidation to guide his team. Its sort of like the policy: You have consequences for your sins. Afterall, that's the primary reason these juvies are at ABR to pay for their crimes--I highly doubt the coach would get physical, it is still a game afterall. And I will interview some past players that can verify this.
Reguarding these criminal's rights, I do believe that these teens deserve basic human rights, but they are criminals, and cannot be treated equal to innocent people. Their crimes violated other's rights and for their consequences they will have to have some of their rights taken away. It's an alterative to prison; the only thing is ABR offered them a second chance and succeed. Prison doesn't even work with their criminals, which probably accounts for their high return rate. ABR was a highly successful program-its unfortunate that this tragedy had to happen like this.
I wish Ms. Vega (Nic's mom) could have been a better parent and prevented all this from happening.
"DAUGHTER"
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On 2005-09-18 21:09:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"Obviously he wasn't acting - he died as a result of heat exposure - why don't you try exercising in 110 degree heat. See if you feel like passing out after an hour of so. The negligene that was demonstrated was so outrageous. To bring his lifeless body back without calling for emergency assistance was horrific. When he was found passed out and face down in the water - immediate resucitation efforts should have been initiated and 911 called. This was not done. Also it was extremely negligent to leave him alone in a bathtub when he was unconscious or semi-conscious. He should have been brought to the Emergency room instead of a hotel room. What happend to him defies reason and was extremely negligent. I believe that this was done to prevent licensed health care workers from reporting this abusive treatment to the authroities. This is often the case. The punishment that was given was not enough in my opinion. If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
"
What the hell are you talking about?? We are discussing ABR and specifically, the death of Nicholas Contreraz here.
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This will have quiet a few responces rolled into one, so consider everything I say after a quote a seperate responce.
My ownly thought is how the program is not at all liable for a kid running away, and is killed in the process. One would think that even if the kid was being silly, and I do agree jumping into a canal head first is kind of stupid, but one would think that regardless of the kid?s actions the burden of responsibility is in fact on the program.
This brings up a interesting idea in my head. Why is the youth running away? We can easly assume it is because he does not like the place he is at, but we continue with the logic. Why did the youth risk his life in doing something dumb? Running is one thing, prisoners run, kids run, people run away when their scared, but rarely do they risk their lives. People try to be safe so they can survive what they are running away from. So the question is why did the kid feel that he needed to risk his life to get away from what was going on at this ranch? What was so horrible that he would rather die than go back? I believe the youth?s actions are very telling about the place.
Nospank.com is not a credible source as you suggest. It is the same half-truth, blinded site, much like this one here.
Ok.... how so? Are you going to support it? You have to realize every one has an agenda.
If this whole murderous catastrophe is true, then why didn't the other boys there at the ranch at this time say anything? And don't give me that they were scared, ABR is now closed; these "horrible" staff members can't do anything to them. What is keeping this "eye-witnesses" from speaking to detectives and helping with the investigations now???? Ummmm....maybe because no of it ever happened!!
Well, to begin with a good amount of fear. Second a lot of people won?t believe them because they buy into what you buy into the idea that they are untrustworthy "delinquents." You have no respect for these kids. While I will grant you that they have done nothing to deserve respect from you, I do hold to the idea that every human deserves basic human respect, and you are not showing these kids even that. They are animals to you and your thought process on this subject is disgusting.
PT is done outside (weather permitting)--in plain view for the world to see.
Maybe you have never done PT to any sort of standard, and maybe you really don?t know about PT, but people get sick during PT, they hurt during the runs, they hurl, and they get the squirts. I have seen this during my own Army standard PT, and guess what they are told to hydrate and take it easy, because there is something wrong with them. They did not get enough water, or they did not eat right or something. These people that run PT should of known this.
Contreraz was a liar and a fake
Another example of you not giving any respect to human beings. I wonder if he is faking death, because damn he must be good....
They are criminals, juvenile delinquents!! The moment you trust them is the moment they screw you over and mess up again.
The more you say things like this the more I see the hate you have in your heart. I think your father poisoned you to them, or maybe you poisoned your self.
So you suggest counseling and medication?!?!? Yeah, like that?s going to work! Here pop a pill and all your rage, and aggression and sins will vanish!!
No we suggest treating them like human beings and having love and respect for them. People respond more to love than hate, and all you and your staffers seem to have is hate. As a side note PT does not make rage and aggressions and sins vanish either....
I like have said, most of these staff members at ABR were former military and law enforcement officers. They have honor, respect, and a passion for the citizens of this nation.
You are wrong, simply wrong here. These people have no honor. I am a military cadet and I would not follow these men to the mess hall let alone into battle. These people dishonored them self?s the second they decided it was ok to treat people like animals. I hold that same standard for every one. The staff is a blotch on human kind and a mark of dishonor on the fine institutions they came from.
but people have died at Knott's Berry Farm from a heart attack on their thrill rides, yet they are able to operate still.
There is a little issue there called free choice, and free will. They were not forced to get on the rides and they were not run into the ground with PT.
It's no wonder our nation is turning out the way it is without such facilities to correct these children's. I blame this nation's crime problems on people such as yourselves. May you bear the burden of knowing you are damning these children's future and possibilities.
Daughter, I blame the countries issues on people such as you. Not because you are defending some damned program, and not because your father worked in it. I blame the woes of this country on your hate, disrespect and rage. It's no wonder when people like you, your family, and the staff of ABR is raising families that kids like this are produced. The hate for people you have in your heart is terrifying. The disrespect you show to people is shameful, and your actions in defending the death of a person are sad. You don't seem to care about the death; you think he is slime to be taken off your boots with some shine and a buff. If people like you are in the majority I feel for this country, because this country is based off of citizenship, cooperation, and love for the fellow man.
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The government were the ones to assign these children to facilities, such as ABR. It was either they go to jail or they go to a facility. The judges were the ones to make that decision. But its not the judge that caused the child to be sent there. Had the teen not committed the crime, there would be no need for such a program.
"There is a little issue there called free choice, and free will. They were not forced to get on the rides and they were not run into the ground with PT."
--These kids HAD freedom. They HAD the right to make their own choices, and HAD the right to do what they wanted to do. But, ya know what, they chose to give up that frredom when they committed these crimes. Thank God we live in a country that gives consequences for the crime. Thanks who people learn. Some of these kids had even taken freedoms away from innocent citizens, and as a punishment, the kids themselves had to have some punishment of their own taken away. You think a pill is a proper punishment for their actions?? You think counseling will make them feel remorse?? I disagree with you on your point that I am filled with hatred and agression towards people. If you know me at all, you would realize that I treat people with just as much respect as they deserve. Contreras deserved little respect in my book. I do not hate these kids--I knew many of them very well. I think they were kids that grew up in the wrong environment and probably had the wrong friends and made some wrong decisions. But that doesn't justify their actions. They still made the choice to commit these unlawful actions. Tell me, if someone murder your child-your mother-your wife, would honestly treat them with the same amount of respect?? I don't think so. You would go to those court hearings and suggest to the judge that this murdrer receive counseling sessions and a pill to take once a day?? I don't think so. Let the punishment fit the crime. While medications and counseling is all great, its not proper punishment. If its coupled with jail time, program assignments, fines, whatever--great, but counseling and medication is absolutely no punishment at all. You claim these facilities brain-wash people (you even claim they have brain-washed me!!!), but the exact same thing can be said about counseling and medication. In fact, you're altering the brain's chemicals to make it easier to do so. Now I'd like to know--if you were one of these kids, do you think you would think before you act and consider the consequences being released from addictive, life-altering medications and counseling as much as if you had spent several months in a behavioral facility? NO!!
Overlord, you have some strange ideas for consequences. Hopefully, you never consider running for President; our nation will be overrun with medicated criminals creating more problems for the INNOCENT!! They'd be free to harm, abuse and prey on more innocent rather than serving time for their actions in an instutional facility.
About PT, Overlord---both my parents were military officers. I have grown up on several bases from California to New York. I have seen PT, and I don't disagree with you, it's definitely not enjoyable. I don't know about other facilities (and frankly I honestly don't care), but ABR PT wasn't conducted identical to military PT. The staff wasn't in their faces screaming. If they showed disrespect or disreguard of the rules, then yes. And PT didn't last hours upon hours on end. However, it all goes back to being punishment. These kids are not at ABR to enjoy themselves, have fun and socialize like it's some tea party!! Although that is something you may deemed appropriate punishment, a tea party to socialize and "discuss" their issues. Then we can all just live in peace and harmony and the world will be a wonderful place, right? So we should have counseled and medicated Sadam Hussein, then too, right?? Granted he was a world-wide terrorist, but he started out behaving just like these boys did.
This boy jumped into the canal because he didn't think before he acted (much like he did his whole life). He had been disrespectful all day to my father and other staff members and was physical at times. After being controlled, he was told he would be transported to Queen Creek (the main branch) to talk with the program director about being sent back to CA. In CA, he would then meet with his judge and ABR would suggest detention of the boy. He didn't want to go to prison and knew he screw up his last opportunity. He didn't want to face the punishment for his actions and thought running away was best. He had stated to my father that he had to urinate while on the way to Queen Creek, and my father pulled over to allow the boy to use the restroom. He had been placed on suicide watch earlier and had his shoelaces removed for his security because whether you agree so or not, these guys did care about these boys (some called them DAD because they never had a positive father figure in their lives before) He wanted to get away with what he did and saw a chance to do so and did. And his selfishness, immaturity and actions are what killed him-not ABR. They weren't their to have fun. But they did have vacations, field trips, carnivals, fairs, football games....they were rewarded for good behaviors.
I do NOT support Nospank.com, as I said. It is biased and blinded, much like you all.
So you're military too, great. My father and the staff members at ABR didn't treat these teens like animals. Most of the events you hear are fabricated exaggerations spread by the same criminals at the facility and the press. You have chosen to hear what you want to believe. It's so much easier to blame the workers than the children. It's easier to have pity and sympathy for these criminals than understanding for the workers. They cared about teaching these kids and they were putting themselves in danger each day just to put food on the table. You have to earn respect though; you give it in order to receive some in return.
I come from a wonderful Christian family. I even work at a non-profit ministry that shares the news of salvation to under-priledged children. No one in my family has been in trouble with the law, or even done such things as these boys. My parents knew how to be good parents. They were strict and gave us consequences for our actions so we didn't end up like these mis-guided souls.
I have never said either death at ABR was well deserved. I defend ABR while the rest of you point your fingers at it, solely blaming them. I look at the reasons these kids were placed there and stand against the lies spread about the events that took place.
I'd like to know what actions make me so disrespectful except defending a program with only good intentions, which has successfully changed the lives of hundreds of thousands of teenagers. I am simply exercising my right, as an American, to freedom of speech (and thank God for it).
By the way, it you knew anything about ABR and their PT, they didn't run PT for hours a day. It usually occurred in the early morning-8AM, before it was hot out. Plenty of water was available throughout the entire ABR campus. Water fountains and bathrooms were everywhere. The kids even had their own water bottles. They didn't do mile long runs or obstacle courses either. Their exercises were minimal.
Excuse me if I defend something I believe in. If that makes me a bigot then oh well, I'm a bigot. But I have to consider the source, and to me, none of you are reliable, credible sources at all.
"DAUGHTER"
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DAUGHTER,
I do not know what "crime" this Contreras boy committed, but the punishment DID NOT FIT THE CRIME, not by a long shot. This boy ended up dead!
It is nice that you go to such lengths to support and defend your father and the job he chooses to perform. But, one point must be made. YOU are merely repeating what was TOLD to you. YOU were not there, and YOU do not really know what happened to this boy, any more than I know. Therefore--you can not convince me of anything factual that happened to this boy, or why he died. IF you were MY "daughter," I would probably NOT tell you the real truth about what happened to this young boy who died while "under my care" either. I doubt if your father told you the whole truth either.
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On 2005-09-19 23:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nic did not die of heat exersion, the autopsy report concluded that his death was a cause of an undiagnosed lung condition that he had arrived at the ranch with. The nurse cannot diagnose any conditions and had the staff deemed his conditions serious (note: all the conidtions your websites state occrrued, are not full truths) would have transported himm to the local hospital.
ABR (NOT ABS as some have called it) had a leading football team, and it is true that the coach may have been a little tough. But aren't all football coaches?? You think he's going to sit the team down and have brunch with them to discuss what they did wrong?? I don't think so! All coaches use intimidation to guide his team. Its sort of like the policy: You have consequences for your sins. Afterall, that's the primary reason these juvies are at ABR to pay for their crimes--I highly doubt the coach would get physical, it is still a game afterall. And I will interview some past players that can verify this.
Reguarding these criminal's rights, I do believe that these teens deserve basic human rights, but they are criminals, and cannot be treated equal to innocent people. Their crimes violated other's rights and for their consequences they will have to have some of their rights taken away. It's an alterative to prison; the only thing is ABR offered them a second chance and succeed. Prison doesn't even work with their criminals, which probably accounts for their high return rate. ABR was a highly successful program-its unfortunate that this tragedy had to happen like this.
I wish Ms. Vega (Nic's mom) could have been a better parent and prevented all this from happening.
"DAUGHTER""
Daughter ... it's shameful that you would point the finger of blame at Nick's mother.
Remember ... "but for the grace of God go I"
:smokin:
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Its shameful that I point the finger at Ms. Vega?? What is it then that she allowed her son to slip away into such a self-destructive life that he ended up landing in the court system. Theres always warning signs which she could have prevented early on had she learned to discipline her own son. She should feel shamed.
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On 2005-09-20 18:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DAUGHTER,
I do not know what "crime" this Contreras boy committed, but the punishment DID NOT FIT THE CRIME, not by a long shot. This boy ended up dead!
It is nice that you go to such lengths to support and defend your father and the job he chooses to perform. But, one point must be made. YOU are merely repeating what was TOLD to you. YOU were not there, and YOU do not really know what happened to this boy, any more than I know. Therefore--you can not convince me of anything factual that happened to this boy, or why he died. IF you were MY "daughter," I would probably NOT tell you the real truth about what happened to this young boy who died while "under my care" either. I doubt if your father told you the whole truth either."
Excuse me, idiot, but had you read all my posts then you would realize that my father and I have an estranged relationship. And I do know how things went on at the ranch--I grew up at that ranch and the branch ranch in Williams. I knew the boys there and staff. I have just recently begun researching this subject and has since became a passion of mine. I have not discussed ANY of these events with my father for that exact reason. My mother and other people that I grew up with around the ranch life have been great resources for me, including ex-ranchers and graduates of ABR. And by the way, my father was not even working for ABR when Contreraz pasted away, he had quit a month earlier. So much for what you know. ::bangin::
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On 2005-09-20 20:35:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"Its shameful that I point the finger at Ms. Vega?? What is it then that she allowed her son to slip away into such a self-destructive life that he ended up landing in the court system. Theres always warning signs which she could have prevented early on had she learned to discipline her own son. She should feel shamed."
Oh please, get over yourself! Plenty of kids have gotten into trouble and managed to turn out to be productive adults. Nick was sent to a program that was supposed to help him, not kill him. So he was sick? Kids get sick, that's no excuse to deny them PROPER medical attention.
Face it. Nick died a PREVENTABLE DEATH. Arizona Boys Ranch had a chance to save him and failed. End of story.
God rest Nick's soul.
:sad:
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Yeah and you know all these details about his death based on lies spread by the public. He arrived to the ranch sick and had no apparent symptoms (desite what the lies say). The nurse couldn't have done anything. If he had symptoms he would have been transported to the local hospital.
Kids may turn their lives around without such programs, but something tragic must have happened in their lives for them to realize they needed to change. What about the kids that don't have the opportunity to realize this on their own?? God sends them the message some other way--whether its jail, probation, fines, or a facility treatment. God allowed his death to happen for a reason. We all can learn a lesson from Nic's death. Maybe its for you idiots to shut down and close every facility like ABR denying these kids' the chance to change. As a result, our nation's crime rate will steadily rise, putting us innocent people in danger. I hope you can sleep at night knowing these criminals are roaming our streets because you have closed the door for their rehabilitation.
DAUGHTER
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On 2005-09-18 18:41:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
I see it as the program is responsible for the safety of the resident. No matter where and what the resident is doing the program is required to see that he or she is not harming himself, or others. It is the program's job to make sure kids are not killing themselves with head first lunges into canals.
The kid was being transported to Queen Creek because he was irate and disrespectful all day. He had attacked several staff members, including my father. He was not only a threat to the staff and other ranchers there, but also to himself. As a result, he was placed on suicide watch-his shoe laces removed and a chaperoin assigned at all times. While being transported, he complained to my father that he had to use the restroom. My father stopped for him to go to the restroom and the kid took off. He ran directly for the canal and dove. How could the staff have prevented this kid's actions?? If they had handcuffed him, you all would still have a hissy pit about how he was contained. If he was handcuffed, he would have still drowned. If the staff had tackled him (which they could have, he was too far ahead of them) you would have had a cow about physical abuse and how they treated him so terribly. So unless you have miraculous solution, don't blame this on the staff. If was solely the child's actions that lead to his death. If the child had hung himself in the middle of the night, would that also have been ABR's fault?? Get real, dude. I hope your not a lawyer, cause your rebuttals suck!!
Please see my earlier post regarding your accusations about the boys being dehydrated. This boys were healthier than I was. They were strong and energetic.
DAUGHTER
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::fuckoff::
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On 2005-09-20 23:21:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"Yeah and you know all these details about his death based on lies spread by the public. He arrived to the ranch sick and had no apparent symptoms (desite what the lies say). The nurse couldn't have done anything. If he had symptoms he would have been transported to the local hospital.
Kids may turn their lives around without such programs, but something tragic must have happened in their lives for them to realize they needed to change. What about the kids that don't have the opportunity to realize this on their own?? God sends them the message some other way--whether its jail, probation, fines, or a facility treatment. God allowed his death to happen for a reason. We all can learn a lesson from Nic's death. Maybe its for you idiots to shut down and close every facility like ABR denying these kids' the chance to change. As a result, our nation's crime rate will steadily rise, putting us innocent people in danger. I hope you can sleep at night knowing these criminals are roaming our streets because you have closed the door for their rehabilitation.
DAUGHTER "
Oh hell yeah, we can sleep at night knowing it's just a matter of time before the TEEN HURT industry is exposed by the GAO (look it up) for what it is ... ONE BIG FRAUD.
Trust me, the good ole' days of abusing/torturing children for profit are coming to an end.
Ain't it grand?
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-20 23:36:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"
On 2005-09-18 18:41:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
I see it as the program is responsible for the safety of the resident. No matter where and what the resident is doing the program is required to see that he or she is not harming himself, or others. It is the program's job to make sure kids are not killing themselves with head first lunges into canals.
The kid was being transported to Queen Creek because he was irate and disrespectful all day. He had attacked several staff members, including my father. He was not only a threat to the staff and other ranchers there, but also to himself. As a result, he was placed on suicide watch-his shoe laces removed and a chaperoin assigned at all times. While being transported, he complained to my father that he had to use the restroom. My father stopped for him to go to the restroom and the kid took off. He ran directly for the canal and dove. How could the staff have prevented this kid's actions?? If they had handcuffed him, you all would still have a hissy pit about how he was contained. If he was handcuffed, he would have still drowned. If the staff had tackled him (which they could have, he was too far ahead of them) you would have had a cow about physical abuse and how they treated him so terribly. So unless you have miraculous solution, don't blame this on the staff. If was solely the child's actions that lead to his death. If the child had hung himself in the middle of the night, would that also have been ABR's fault?? Get real, dude. I hope your not a lawyer, cause your rebuttals suck!!
Please see my earlier post regarding your accusations about the boys being dehydrated. This boys were healthier than I was. They were strong and energetic.
DAUGHTER"
Healthy and energetic? Read the autopsy report. Nearly a half gallon of pus in one lung, vomiting and soiling himself for days.
Healthier than you? I guess your speaking to us from beyond the grave, because this boy is DEAD. That's how healthy he is you fool.
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Nick was known to have asthma. He obviously got progressively more ill for two weeks before he died to the point of not eating, loosing 20#, vomitting several times a day, deficating and urinating on himself,
For this he was publicly humiliated and further punished. There is no way to justify this, daughter.
The coroner found 2.5 qts of pus in his lungs, he had strep and staff infections, pneumonia, and chronic bronchitis.
http://www.nospank.net/azboys.htm (http://www.nospank.net/azboys.htm)
And no one noticed he wasn't faking? No fever? No wheezing? No coughing?
A bunch of incompetents who have no business caring for animals, much less children.
They claim to be rehabilitating juvenile criminals and they use a doctor that is on probabtion for criminal activity? Specifically, illegal distribution of narcotics, self-prescribing and inadequate maintenance of medical charts.
ABR is a antiquated dinasaur program led by those who still believe that punishment is the way to heal broken hearts and lives. If you are vaguely interested in looking at a different way, take a look at this Juvenile program- Harris County Youth Village (specifically)
http://www.hcjpd.org/residential_facilities.asp (http://www.hcjpd.org/residential_facilities.asp)
which uses a unique model- Stars and Stripes
http://www.dredyoung.com/Stars%20and%20 ... tripes.htm (http://www.dredyoung.com/Stars%20and%20Stripes/1introduction_to_stars_and_stripes.htm)
Other aspects:
http://www.dredyoung.com/Stars%20and%20Stripes/ (http://www.dredyoung.com/Stars%20and%20Stripes/)
'Juvenile Delinquents' deserve to have their needs met as much (or more) than other teens. There should be a federal model such as Stars and Stripes that all juvenile facilities would be required to adopt. Ex military have no business, generally speaking, caring for youth. They are best at preparing young adults to dissociate and kill.
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[ This Message was edited by: Jarhead6 on 2006-01-25 10:54 ]
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Daughter ... not that this would interest you ... but you should know that not providing children with proper medical care and attention, food and water can be deadly.
Where is your compassion for the suffering this poor boy endured as a result of not being properly cared for while in the custody of ABR?
Abuse is abuse. Doesn't matter if the kid is adjudicated or the class president.
:flame:
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You seem to think all the kids were criminals. You seem to think just because some judge said this place or prison for your actions that they are criminals. I wonder how many of them had a trial by jury. I wonder how many of them were railroaded. Look I'm not defending them, and I'm not saying anything they did was ok. What I am saying is that I do not believe that the large majority were given a fair trial, which tends to be the case for minors in this country.
You claim these facilities brain-wash people (you even claim they have brain-washed me!!!)
Yeah, we do say that, but I'm starting to think not so much for this facility, just maybe physically abusive. The people's tax dollars won?t pay for BM?ing a group of children I wouldn?t think.
Overlord, you have some strange ideas for consequences. Hopefully, you never consider running for President; our nation will be overrun with medicated criminals creating more problems for the INNOCENT!! They'd be free to harm abuse and prey on more innocent rather than serving time for their actions in an instructional facility.
You don't seem to understand. I don?t like criminals, they are bad, simple as that, but what I don?t like is a kid being called a criminal. I wonder how many of the kids were just sent there for property damage or drug offenses. And I continue to ask how many of them had a fair by jury trial. If they are convicted, so be it, but don?t up and send them to get yelled at by some dis-honored military group. Again I say, I want a trial, and I support the current prisons, because they are run nothing like these abuse centers. Oh and daughter, thank you for giving me the power to pick your login name for you. Also, I will run for president, and when I get it, all government funding will be removed from hell holes like this.
So we should have counseled and medicated Sadam Hussein, then too, right??
You seem to think that I don't support consequences for ones actions. That?s far from the truth, but being PT'ed to death is not a consequence, its murder. And personally I think Saddam should of been shot in his hole, thank God they didn?t hmm, or justice would not be served and innocent people would be denied their justice.
He had been disrespectful all day to my father and other staff members
I would be to if I had a bunch of dis-honored punks leading me around all day.
After being controlled,
You mean physically restrained by people 3 times his size right?
He had been placed on suicide watch earlier and had his shoelaces removed for his security because whether you agree so or not, these guys did care about these boys
Wait... that makes no since... they care so they take his shoe laces... they don?t stop him and talk to him about how life is worth living and yeah it sucks but he will get out of here eventually... they just take his shoe laces? That is foolish.
So you're military too, great. My father and the staff members at ABR didn't treat these teens like animals.
Yes, yes they did, when a person is running for his life like an animal, and they are in prison without a trial and no extreme circumstances, and denied their human rights. That is living like a animal.
You have to earn respect though; you give it in order to receive some in return.
Along the same lines what did your father do to deserve respect? Seemingly nothing at all, so why should the kids respect him?
I defend ABR while the rest of you point your fingers at it, solely blaming them.
You don't seem to get it, we are not solely blaming ABR, we are blaming the mentality of people that kids need to be fixed, look around the forum, you will see the blame spread around plenty.
I'd like to know what actions make me so disrespectful
At the top of the list is your disrespect for other American citizens and your disrespect for their human rights.
God allowed his death to happen for a reason.
Wow... you just lost the last vestiges of any respect I had for you as a human being, you are a animal, you are nothing but a hateful angry animal after everyone to defend your failure of a father. God does not let people die!!! God does not murder people! God is love, God is attention, and God is care. God would never do such a thing to children. You are a heretic, and if I hear you say anything like that ever again I will make it my goal to rip your argument apart whenever I see you post.
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Daughter writes:
"While being transported, he complained to my father that he had to use the restroom."
----------------------------------------------
Well, there ya go. A basic need such as going to the bathroom is viewed by the toughlove idiots as a "complaint".
Sheesh. I wish I could say I'm shocked by the ignorance, but truthfully, I am not. Teen Helpers (whether they work in state-run facilities or privately owned and operated programs) are infamous for their stupidity.
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Dang OL you?re getting soft. I lost respect for Daughter on page 1 of this thread.
She is new; I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. But apparently that did not work.
The options to the death of a child who should not have been allowed to escape are pretty easy. A person with any sense could figure it out.
After this quote you gave a list of things. And I would like to make a quick statement, I cant really describe it, and I cant really explain it, but that list bothered me greatly, and the actions you would have taken bother me as well.
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:eek: this whole thread has me speechless.
"Daughter" just has me beyond words, and Jarhead coming out with a laundry list of qualities that the military is supposedly instilling in people is really.... uh, not relevant?
Its hardly more than just painting a pretty picture of the qualities of someone whose been indoctrinated into following orders and acting polite to his superiors and being able to fight to the death without freaking out and managing to still be able to function while in a psychologically regressed state - such as during heavy combat. Keeping your shirt tucked in, your collar starched and your posture straight isnt really on their minds in Iraq right now, now is it?
Hey, what I said is cold and offensive, but its what it is! Boot camp (for adults, in the military) is to make them tough, obedient, unafraid and willing to kill and not afraid to die.
Something centered around intense physical conditioning and being put into a regressed mental state from stressors aside from the physical ones (humiliation, sleep, fear, etc) is arguably worthwhile for consenting adults who actaully realize theyre going to get put in some banana republic, sandy nation with oil reserves, afghanistan for combat or the next place to get hit by a hurricane to rebuild and mantain order... and face that crap in their line of work (mostly in combat).
But what the hell does that have to do with helping a child? Beating children into clay, reshaping them, and baking them isnt therapeutic and saying 'god let him die for a reason' to excuse sadism is what I call BULLSHIT. K?
Now before someone fires back with a strawmen like I should take rapists to disney land or WHATEVER, you do realize that you should first do no harm, right? right? NOTHING is better than doing something which kills a child or is just a waste of time to make everyone appear busy, yanno? All that money could have been better spent and the people running that 'ranch' could go get real jobs!Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.
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A list of options vs. death OL?
Being treated like a package and suffled around, and locked up without any freedom with no trial vs. death... I pick death.
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On 2005-09-21 19:44:00, OverLordd wrote:
"=Being treated like a package and suffled around, and locked up without any freedom with no trial vs. death... I pick death."
Some have.
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On 2005-09-21 08:41:00, OverLordd wrote:
"You seem to think all the kids were criminals. You seem to think just because some judge said this place or prison for your actions that they are criminals. I wonder how many of them had a trial by jury. I wonder how many of them were railroaded. Look I'm not defending them, and I'm not saying anything they did was ok. What I am saying is that I do not believe that the large majority were given a fair trial, which tends to be the case for minors in this country.
You claim these facilities brain-wash people (you even claim they have brain-washed me!!!)
Yeah, we do say that, but I'm starting to think not so much for this facility, just maybe physically abusive. The people's tax dollars won?t pay for BM?ing a group of children I wouldn?t think.
Overlord, you have some strange ideas for consequences. Hopefully, you never consider running for President; our nation will be overrun with medicated criminals creating more problems for the INNOCENT!! They'd be free to harm abuse and prey on more innocent rather than serving time for their actions in an instructional facility.
You don't seem to understand. I don?t like criminals, they are bad, simple as that, but what I don?t like is a kid being called a criminal. I wonder how many of the kids were just sent there for property damage or drug offenses. And I continue to ask how many of them had a fair by jury trial. If they are convicted, so be it, but don?t up and send them to get yelled at by some dis-honored military group. Again I say, I want a trial, and I support the current prisons, because they are run nothing like these abuse centers. Oh and daughter, thank you for giving me the power to pick your login name for you. Also, I will run for president, and when I get it, all government funding will be removed from hell holes like this.
So we should have counseled and medicated Sadam Hussein, then too, right??
You seem to think that I don't support consequences for ones actions. That?s far from the truth, but being PT'ed to death is not a consequence, its murder. And personally I think Saddam should of been shot in his hole, thank God they didn?t hmm, or justice would not be served and innocent people would be denied their justice.
He had been disrespectful all day to my father and other staff members
I would be to if I had a bunch of dis-honored punks leading me around all day.
After being controlled,
You mean physically restrained by people 3 times his size right?
He had been placed on suicide watch earlier and had his shoelaces removed for his security because whether you agree so or not, these guys did care about these boys
Wait... that makes no since... they care so they take his shoe laces... they don?t stop him and talk to him about how life is worth living and yeah it sucks but he will get out of here eventually... they just take his shoe laces? That is foolish.
So you're military too, great. My father and the staff members at ABR didn't treat these teens like animals.
Yes, yes they did, when a person is running for his life like an animal, and they are in prison without a trial and no extreme circumstances, and denied their human rights. That is living like a animal.
You have to earn respect though; you give it in order to receive some in return.
Along the same lines what did your father do to deserve respect? Seemingly nothing at all, so why should the kids respect him?
I defend ABR while the rest of you point your fingers at it, solely blaming them.
You don't seem to get it, we are not solely blaming ABR, we are blaming the mentality of people that kids need to be fixed, look around the forum, you will see the blame spread around plenty.
I'd like to know what actions make me so disrespectful
At the top of the list is your disrespect for other American citizens and your disrespect for their human rights.
God allowed his death to happen for a reason.
Wow... you just lost the last vestiges of any respect I had for you as a human being, you are a animal, you are nothing but a hateful angry animal after everyone to defend your failure of a father. God does not let people die!!! God does not murder people! God is love, God is attention, and God is care. God would never do such a thing to children. You are a heretic, and if I hear you say anything like that ever again I will make it my goal to rip your argument apart whenever I see you post.
"
Actually, God allows every single thing to happen in this world according to His plan. Ya know its like the saying, He's got the whole world in His hands...and....Not one sparrow falls from the sky that God doesn't know about.
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You need to realize, OverLordd that a crime is a crime. In God's eyes every crime is equal and in America, a crime is anything that brakes the law. Whether its shoplifting or murder, it all the same, criminal actions.
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On 2005-09-21 09:20:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"Dang OL your getting soft. I lost respect for Daughter on page 1 of this thread.
A point for you to consider OL in regards to brainwashing.
1) Gaining physical conformity through routine excercise, and drill to mold a person into an acceptable manner of thinking. PT... or in short brain washing. Mind you not all mental rewiring is bad, and even I could use some pt, but most facilities institute PT for a part of a never changing routine to gain conformity over the group. Any physical benifits from PT are brushed over in the resident's detesting of the excercise as it is forced on them.
Hence why I used to take the older kids groups on at three springs in bench press contests. Used to leave them all crying in pain, but they all had a good time. I imagine if they didn't they would have never challenged me to a rematch on a regular basis. That type of physical activity is benificial as there is a fun element attached to it, and its self-esteem enhancing.
Quote:
You claim these facilities brain-wash people (you even claim they have brain-washed me!!!)
2) Most of the adjudicated youth I worked with were actually taken off their meds. Through positve role modeling, and praise they were encouraged to act in a manner that would not get them frog marched to the nearest detention center. This means a lot of time being spent in huddles confronting, and discussing improper behaviors, but the kid is not going to get better by just subtle reminders.
Quote:
Overlord, you have some strange ideas for consequences. Hopefully, you never consider running for President; our nation will be overrun with medicated criminals creating more problems for the INNOCENT!! They'd be free to harm abuse and prey on more innocent rather than serving time for their actions in an instructional facility.
3) I find it amusing how Daughter seems to think how serving time is going to actually prevent crime. The statistics to criminal relapses upon release are so absurd one would be inclined to believe it would be better to send the Adjudicated Youths on a all expensed paid trip to Disney World. At least the general public would have a kid with some happy memories, and a Donald Duck T-shirt to show for it's money. Time need not be spent uselessly for the mere sake or retaliation by society. Actual theraputic benifits are to be had under the right conditions.
Quote:
He had been disrespectful all day to my father and other staff members
4) I have had kids spend the first month of their entire stay saying nasty things to me. It's a matter of a kid learning not to hate everyone else for his screw ups. Once they accept that simple fact life goes on, and peace or such that it was once reigned again. Disrespect is part of the way things are when dealing with troubled children. Is it right not in the least, but is the way it is? Absolutely.
Quote:
The kid was being transported to Queen Creek because he was irate and disrespectful all day. He had attacked several staff members, including my father. He was not only a threat to the staff and other ranchers there, but also to himself. As a result, he was placed on suicide watch-his shoe laces removed and a chaperoin assigned at all times. While being transported, he complained to my father that he had to use the restroom.
5) Daughter this one is for you. I have tackled several kids as they attempted to flee, so it would be the last thing I would do is cry foul about doing what it takes to prevent a kid from hurting themselves. Any program who has a resident routinely attacking staff as the day progresses is responsible for maintaining the safety or the staff, and first and foremost the resident.
The options to the death of a child who should not have been allowed to escape are pretty easy. A person with any sense could figure it out.
1) Call the local sheriff and have the boy transported immediately to a detention center for his own safety.
2) Isolate him with two staff members in a room inside to allow him time to calm himself, while waiting transport.
3) Any moron who informs a youth ahead of time that they are being transferred to a lock down is asking for trouble. Don't tell the kid till the last possible moment, and that is when they are putting him in the vehicle to leave. Sounds mean, but it makes sense.
4) A kid who is that violent that they have to tranfer him should not be left alone with just one staff member. Nor should he be allowed near a group of other children.
It's pretty plain to me that ABR is at fault for contributing to the senseless death of a child. They may not have tossed him in the canal, but they certainly did not do much to stop him.
It's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
RTP2003
"
Hey stupid, if you had read ANY of my earlier posts you would have read how I also disagree with prison because the return rate is so high. ABR at least offered them an opportunity to change and corect their behavior before it lead to prison.
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I never worked at ABR, idiot. I grew up there. MY FATHER worked there while I was like 10. Read all the facts (my posts) BEFORE you comment on such things to me.
FYI, Contreraz only complained about the restroom to run.
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Correction: I didn't mean Contreraz -- I meant the kid that dove into the canal.
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On 2005-09-21 20:14:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"You're forgetting that the moment the child was incarcerated by the state of Arizona that his options became the options of what the State of Arizona deemed good and proper for him. Free will to not committing crime is still his basic human choice. On the other hand uselessly doing time in a pointless program that does nothing to promote a positive lifestyle that encourages the success of children is the responsibility of society at a Large.
ABR from what I gather is a state funded program for Adjudicated Youth. This makes the deaths of these children all the more galling to me as one would think that the state had a vested interest in promoting the safety and wellbeing of the youths committed to their care."
How can you all post on a topic without knowing all the factual details?? Contreraz was assigned to ABR not by the state of Arizona, but by the State of California!! California paid ABR minuscual amounts annually, the rest of their funding was private donations by their supporters.
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Daughter, you are not fooling anybody with your garbage mouth or your bible-thumping b.s.
Nick Contreras did not deserve what happened to him at ABR.
It's as simple as that.
Instead of blaming this poor boy (or his mother) I suggest you do your homework. You do not have your facts straight.
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-21 22:00:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"You need to realize, OverLordd that a crime is a crime. In God's eyes every crime is equal and in America, a crime is anything that brakes the law. Whether its shoplifting or murder, it all the same, criminal actions. "
And what happened to this young man was CRIMINAL.
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Actually, God allows every single thing to happen in this world according to His plan. Ya know its like the saying, He's got the whole world in His hands...and....Not one sparrow falls from the sky that God doesn't know about.
Of course he knew about it, God is onishient. But he give humanity free will, that inculdes free will to do evil things, and for the consiquences of those actions to play out. This child was murdered God did not alow it to happen, he played by his own rules. God had no hand in what happened to this child. Just because the child died does not mean that God looked down from heaven and said. "Die now."
You need to realize, OverLordd that a crime is a crime. In God's eyes every crime is equal and in America, a crime is anything that brakes the law. Whether its shoplifting or murder, it all the same, criminal actions.
And you need to see that you cannot be called a criminal unless you are convicted by a jury of your peers. How many of these kids had that? Guilty untill proven innocent remember daughter? I hope some one would show you how horrable it is for your rights to be ignored.
You seem to miss the point of this discussion daughter... stop calling people stupid and idiots, because there is always some one smarter than you are.
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[ This Message was edited by: Jarhead6 on 2006-01-25 10:55 ]
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I would like to know exactly what facts I do not know or have wrong in this case, Anonymous.....please, tell me!! I am very curious as to what you know that I don't--seeing as I grew up around that ranch and know how the teens were treated (contrary to your self-righteous, sympathetic, and pathetic beliefs that these children did no wrong) and have read the autoposy reports and police reports in this case. In the canal case, my own father was there and the police verified every word my father said to be true.
As far as OverLordd's belief that God doesn't allow bad things to happen....well, I guess we'll just have to agreee to disagree. That's fine if our personal, religious beliefs differ. No arguing is going to change either of our opinions. But I strongly believe that Satan has to approach God and ask Him permission before Satan does any wrong. (temptation) Its is then upto us as humans whether we give into Satan's temptation or not. And I also believe God ALLOWS bad things to happen (even to good people) for His greater good. He can use bad things to touch other people's lives and bring more lost souls to Him.
I honestly have no idea why I became so passionate about this topic. I was simply writting my profile online and was discussing various careers my parents had throughout my childhood. I just needed to know my father's job title while working at ABR and used a search engine to find it. Instead of finding ABR's official website, I discovered several biased, misinformed, anti-ABR websites. I spent eight or more hours that night reading- reading many posts online about the subject, reading many articles written that contained hundreds of exaggerations, lies and misconstrued facts, and reading the autoposy and police investigation reports. The more I read that night, the more I became furious with the fact that many people have no idea what they are writing about. (Now don't get me wrong, many of you out there are well-informed and educated about what you are talking about. Many of you have attended programs--all I can say to you is, the program you experienced was not ABR so don't compare the two because there are some bad programs out there, but there's also many good ones. But there's also a lot of people who simply follow the crowd and agree with their opinions. I applaud OverLordd and other frequent posters who reply to me--you are educated and passionate, much like myself.) So I became filled with this urge that I needed to post my opinion out there and share with you my beliefs. Now that I have, I feel calm and peaceful know I have stood up for my beliefs and put my opinions out there for the world to see. I defended something that many people choose to bash because it's the popular and cool thing to do. I wish you all would realize that I do not justify either death at ABR-I simply don't believe ABR was at fault for them. It's a shame that these two young men had died, but I also believe ABR is not the one to blame or point the finger at here. It's also a shame ABR and its eight branches had to be closed considering the millions of young men that they had helped change their lives around. You all may not agree with the program, but the fact is, for many of those teens, the program worked-it was exactly want they needed. But to expect a 100% success rate in these programs isn't realistic.
Many of those boys did receive a trial jury, and ABR was what the judge had recommended. Others were just assigned there by the judge. Unfortunately, this country does not grant a trial by jury to everyone. While this may be the most fair approach, it also isn't realistic and practical. It is an expensive and tedious process. The jurors have to be notified, interviewed and choosen before the person may even appear in court. If the US granted a fair trial jury to every person tried with a crime (stealing a candy bar, murder, DUI, disturbing the peace,drug possession, rape, drunk and disorderly..), the accussed would have to wait months just awaiting trial because our system would be so incerdibly backed up. What do you suggest we should do with them while they are awaiting their trial?? Keep them locked up in jail? (But then you would have a cow about that because they could be potentially innocent and keeping them locked up isn't "fair".) So, we should allow them to be free until their trial, right? So the guilty people who did commit these crimes can roam our streets committing more heinous crimes and endangering us innocent people. Then they commit a crime and not have to serve any form of punishment for it until several years down the road. Logically think about what you are suggesting here.
Also, I would like to thank you, OverLordd. You have been a generous and respectful host. You gave me the benefit of a doubt (in the begging, while I was a new comer). I am glad to see other people are just as passionate about their beliefs as I am. Just because we have differing beliefs doesn't make either of us a bad human being. We need to respect the fact that we were probably raised differently, grew up in different households and environments..whatever, that has caused us to believe the way we do. I respect you that you take the time to discuss and at times, argue, with me about his topic. That shows true dedication and passion. I hope you realize that I also care about the troubled children and teens our nations has, but I just think a different approach is needed. (Now don't say I justify murder--that was one case out of the millions touched at ABR. I agree with the approach ABR had. It offered these teens a wonderful education, sports, trade experience, and yes, some respect for authority. Those kids learned in a self-contained environment free from all the crime and drugs our nations has to offer.) Thank you for your time and opinions, OverLordd, Three Springs, and the others that frequently replied to my posts.
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Boys Ranch kids `lived in fear,' Calif. probe finds
Staffers at Arizona facility accused of falsifying reports
Thursday, 9 July 1998
NEWS 1A
By Enric Volante and Rhonda Bodfield
THE ARIZONA DAILY STAR
California officials are accusing Arizona of failing to protect children at Arizona Boys Ranch, where investigators found some delinquent youths had to ``live in fear'' of abuse.
A three-month California investigation found the atmosphere at Boys Ranch discouraged reporting abuse to authorities.
The California Social Services Department yesterday released a 400-page report, prompted by the March 2 death of 16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz. The Sacramento youth died of an undetected lung infection at the Boys Ranch Oracle Camp.
Almost all of the 24 boys interviewed by the California team said they saw staff members hurt other residents, even though staff usually took boys out of sight to discipline them.
They reported incidents ranging from arm-twisting to hitting a boy in the stomach with a closed fist.
Didn't feel safe
Of the 24 boys, seven said they did not feel safe at Boys Ranch, seven others said they felt completely safe from the staff, and 10 others said they felt safe as long as they behaved.
The nine-member California panel recommended forwarding its findings to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona for a civil rights investigation, as well as to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Arizona Attorney General's Office.
Boys Ranch President Robert Thomas, who had not seen the report, yesterday called it superficial and biased. He said investigators relied on interviews with only a small pool of employees and residents.
California social services Director Eloise Anderson issued a summary of the report Tuesday, when she announced her state will stop paying to send youths to Boys Ranch because of concerns about physical and mental abuse, as well as medical neglect.
The report sharply criticized Arizona's Department of Economic Security for relicensing Boys Ranch over the years without forcing substantial reforms despite a series of reported physical abuses since the 1970s.
Dismissed criticism
Arizona officials yesterday dismissed the criticism of the state's oversight as shallow and hypocritical.
``It looks like a lot of finger-pointing and Johnny-come-lately kind of involvement'' by California, said DES spokeswoman Sally Hinderland.
``What's interesting is they are complaining about Arizona not requiring this and not being clear on that, and what they're talking about is an agency that would be completely illegal in California.
``But the bottom line is they've shipped a lot of kids out to our state.''
The report comes as California is enmeshed in a political debate over its policy of sending youths to treatment programs that would not be legal under California's stringent child-welfare laws.
The report gives more details of how the Boys Ranch culture clashed with California regulations.
The report states that the in-your-face, drill-sergeant approach used by Boys Ranch to change the behavior of young criminals violates the rights of juveniles under California law to be free of intimidation.
The staff should not have resorted to the ``violence, intimidation and other forms of coercion'' that many of the boys knew well from being in gangs, the report stated.
Boys provoked
Instead, they sometimes provoked boys or used physical restraints as punishment for misbehavior or ``because of a personal power struggle with staff.''
The report shows California's investigative team also concluded that:
*Physical abuse, psychological abuse and personal-rights violations ``were endemic'' at the Oracle camp, which oriented youths to the military-style boot camp. Most problems occurred in the orientation phase.
* Staff members at Oracle ``consistently employed violent and coercive methods in obtaining compliance with their requests.''
* Staff members were not adequately trained or supervised. The Oracle program director was unaware that as of July 1997 his child-care workers and supervisors were required to have certain training and experience.
Aggressiveness encouraged
* Employees were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically aggressive with residents. Some former employees and residents said physical controls were used for small infractions despite a written Boys Ranch policy to use controls only in instances of danger to self or others.
* Physical training was used as a disciplinary measure and water was often denied.
* Eight of 10 employees interviewed were unaware Arizona law required them to report suspected child abuse to police or Child Protective Services. Most said abuse was reported to Boys Ranch supervisors.
* Boys Ranch softened ``the tone'' of aggressive treatment when visitors were around.
Boys Ranch's Thomas yesterday acknowledged disciplinary violations occurred at the Oracle facility, but said he closed that camp in June to address those concerns.
``We have found some breaking of policies and found some staff down there totally disregarded policy, but on the other hand, it was an isolated case more in orientation - not in the entire program,'' Thomas said.
Problem corrected
``As far as Nicholaus Contreraz, we all know where the mistakes were made and I feel terrible about it and we've already corrected that problem,'' he said.
Thomas said that although California residents make up 220 of the 400 youths left from the nearly 600 residents before Contreraz's death, it is too early to sound Boys Ranch's death knell.
He said recruiting efforts can be stepped up in other states and some California agencies could challenge the legality of California's decision to pull funding.
California pays 40 percent of the $3,600 monthly cost of sending troubled youths to Boys Ranch. If California probation departments and juvenile courts decide to leave current residents there, they will have to pay the full cost after Aug. 1.
California has a ban on new placements to Boys Ranch.
Relatives interviewed
California investigators interviewed relatives of two current and two former Boys Ranch residents. Their views ranged from one mother who thought the program would help her son ``accomplish something with his life'' to another who called the program ``barbaric.''
All parents said boys could only phone them with staff members listening in on a speaker phone.
In one case, family members said when they saw their son in juvenile court in April, they noticed his face was swollen, according to the report.
In that case, a Boys Ranch doctor's medical report, dated April 20, noted that the boy's ``left hand was stepped on, left forehead was pushed into a pole (three times), hit on the right side of his nose, hit in cheeks with staff's elbow, and also behind the ears.'' The doctor recommended ``a review for possible excessive use of force.''
The California report does not give further findings on that case.
The report also summarized complaints about medical care from five boys.
One youth ``was suffering from colitis with symptoms of rectal bleeding and vomiting after being at the program for approximately two weeks,'' investigators wrote.
Accused of lying
``He stated that staff made fun of him, asked him if he was `gay' and accused him of lying about his illness. He did not receive medical attention for two months at which time he was hospitalized for one week.''
A boy said he received no treatment for a sore leg and blisters and received only Motrin, an over-the-counter pain reliever, for swollen tonsils, which did not help.
``She (the nurse) listened to staff; they always said I was manipulating,'' that boy told investigators.
Investigators also cited ``unreasonable'' restrictions on hygiene and bathroom use at Oracle.
Three staff members told investigators that boys in the orientation program at Oracle were allowed 35 seconds to shower, 20 seconds to use the toilet and 20 seconds to brush their teeth.
Toilet use ``timed''
They could use the toilet only first thing in the morning, directly after meals and right before bedtime ``and were timed,'' the report said. The main ranch had ``more reasonable'' time limits.
The toilet restrictions at the Oracle camp violated Arizona and California personal-rights regulations and Boys Ranch ended them in March, the report said.
----------------------
Daughter can take her toughlove, in-your-face- juvie-punk-ass" attitude and shove it. Any dipstick could and should have known Contreras was not faking. His symptoms were real and the first warning that something was wrong. Shame on them all for not helping this kid and instead, neglecting him to the point where death was imminent.
:smokin:
:smokin:
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Five Indicted In Death At Arizona Youth Ranch ('The Los Angeles Times'
Says An Arizona Grand Jury Thursday Indicted Five Former Employees
Of Arizona Boys Ranch For Manslaughter And Child Abuse, Charging
That The Four Camp Workers And A Staff Nurse Were Responsible
For The March 2 Death Of Nicholaus Contreraz, A 16-Year-Old Offender
From Sacramento, California, At The Paramilitary-Style Boot Camp)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:06:05 -0700
From: [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected])
Subject: MN: US AZ: 5 Indicted In Death At Arizona Youth Ranch
Sender: [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected])
Organization: Media Awareness Project http://www.mapinc.org/lists/ (http://www.mapinc.org/lists/)
Newshawk: Jim Rosenfield
Source: Los Angeles Times (CA)
Contact: http://www.latimes.com/ (http://www.latimes.com/)
Pubdate: 2 October 1998
Author: JULIE CART, Times Staff Writer
5 INDICTED IN DEATH AT ARIZONA YOUTH RANCH
Courts: Former employees are accused of manslaughter and child
abuse in the case of a California offender whose complaints of illness
were reportedly dismissed.
An Arizona grand jury Thursday indicted five former employees of
Arizona Boys Ranch, charging that the four camp workers and a staff
nurse were responsible for the March 2 death of a Sacramento boy at
the paramilitary-style boot camp for juvenile offenders.
The indictments by the panel in Pinal County, southeast of Phoenix,
were the first criminal charges in the 7-month-old case, which has
brought about legislative changes, stricter licensing standards and
tougher oversight guidelines. The fallout from the death has also all
but closed the 50-year-old juvenile rehabilitation facility, which has
a national reputation.
The people charged were among those who worked most closely with
16-year-old Nicholaus Contreraz, who died while being physically
punished. The boy was cleared for rigorous exercise, despite repeated
complaints to the nurse that he was ill.
Indicted were camp nurse Linda Babb and four "work specialists" -
Geoffrey Sean Lewis, Montgomery Clayton Hoover, Michael
Martin Moreno and Troy Michael Jones. Four of the defendants live in
Tucson, and Hoover is from Sierra Vista, about 60 miles southeast of
that city. Each was charged with one count of child abuse and one
count of manslaughter, and faces a maximum penalty of 12 1/2 years in
prison for each count. Arraignment was scheduled for Oct. 23.
Officials at the program--based in Queen Creek, about 30 miles
southeast of Phoenix--had no comment Thursday.
In the past they have characterized Contreraz's death at their Oracle
facility, north of Tucson, as a tragedy and blamed it on the actions
of a few employees who were then suspended.
Children's rights advocates and others were outraged by the death--the
second at the ranch, which has had more than 100 child abuse
complaints lodged against it in the last five years. Thursday's
decision did not completely appease the Contreraz family, which has
sued the Arizona agency that licensed the ranch.
Contreraz's grandmother, Connie Woodward of Sacramento, told the
Associated Press that the administrators who tolerated abuse should
also be held accountable.
"It's a great feeling, but it's not enough yet," she said of the
indictments. "At least we know they're not gonna just slap their hands
and walk away." Cathy Sutton, whose daughter died while attending a
Utah wilderness camp and monitors such boot camp deaths nationwide,
echoed that sentiment.
"They fire the staff and think they've taken care of the problem," she
said. "But administrators never seem to be held accountable."
Contreraz had been sent to the camp after stealing a car and running
away while in custody. The slender teenager spent the last week of his
life complaining of chest pain and difficulty breathing, but had been
identified by the staff as a malingerer and punished more when he
complained, authorities said.
When the boy sought medical attention, the camp nurse repeatedly sent
him back out with approval to engage in the stringent exercise
required of troublesome juveniles, according to a sheriff's report.
His condition worsened and he began to defecate on himself and vomit
frequently, the report said.
Among the indicted staff were those who the report described as having
belittled the youth, made him sleep in soiled underwear, made him eat
dinner while sitting on a toilet and ordered him to carry a trash
basket filled with his soiled clothes and his own vomit.
Contreraz eventually collapsed and died. The medical examiner
pinpointed the cause of death as empyema, a buildup of fluid in the
lining between the lungs and chest cavity. Contreraz was also
suffering from strep and staph infections, pneumonia and chronic
bronchitis. The coroner noted 71 cuts and bruises on the boy's body.
Contreraz's gruesome punishment and death sparked a debate in both
Arizona and California.
California had a policy of sending juvenile offenders to out-of-state
facilities that did not meet its own state licensing requirements.
Lawmakers in Sacramento have since passed legislation discouraging
out-of-state placements and begun bringing home about 1,000 juveniles
from facilities around the country.
The loss of California youths was a severe blow to Boys Ranch, which
relied on the state for three-fourths of its enrollment.
Since Contreraz's death, the seven-campus ranch has closed five sites
and laid off dozens of employees.
The Arizona Department of Economic Security in August denied the ranch
an operating license, citing a "pattern of abuse" in the Contreraz
case and attacking the program's core philosophy of physical restraint
and hands-on confrontation. The state agency also announced that 17
former staff members were being placed on the Arizona Child Abuser
Directory based on their treatment of Contreraz and others.
The ranch has appealed the ruling and this month replaced Bob Thomas,
the program's longtime president.
The FBI is continuing its own investigation of the death.
Copyright 1998 Los Angeles Times.
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On 2005-09-22 11:13:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"I am very curious as to what you know that I don't--seeing as I grew up around that ranch and know how the teens were treated (contrary to your self-righteous, sympathetic, and pathetic beliefs that these children did no wrong) and have read the autoposy reports and police reports in this case.
People who grew up or who were even right next door to the facility I was in had no clue what went on inside...programs usually go out of their way top hide everything that goes on on the inside. As for reading police reports...even those do not always paint an accurate picture...the fact you have read these reports DOES NOT MEAN you KNOW the truth. Case in point check this out...this is my experience where the truth is forever lost even with police reports.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =20#131534 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11175&forum=7&start=20#131534)
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =10#123238 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11237&forum=7&start=10#123238)
And as far as what kids "did wrong" to wind up in a treatment program or what a kid "did wrong" while in the program....that has absolutely nothing to do with the notorious program abuses that are inflicted upon children while in "treatment." No child deserves abuse no matter how egregious a child's conduct may or may not be.
"Instead of finding ABR's official website, I discovered several biased, misinformed, anti-ABR websites. I spent eight or more hours that night reading- reading many posts online about the subject, reading many articles written that contained hundreds of exaggerations, lies and misconstrued facts, and reading the autoposy and police investigation reports. The more I read that night, the more I became furious with the fact that many people have no idea what they are writing about. (Now don't get me wrong, many of you out there are well-informed and educated about what you are talking about. Many of you have attended programs--all I can say to you is, the program you experienced was not ABR so don't compare the two because there are some bad programs out there, but there's also many good ones."
For the record---any anti-porogram criticisms I have are based on MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE inside a treatment program...where outside eyes were strictly forbidden....I assure you, the things I witnessed were NOT exaggerations but are hard cold facts that people like you refuse to accept as reality. The truth about many treatment programs is VERY UGLY and widespread. A lot of posters here also speak from experience. Since you recognize this, why cant you recognize that you have NO experience? Your experience is second-hand information which we all know is told based on a person's biases and not necessarily reality.
Yes I did not attend the program you speak of, but that fact is irrelevant. Know why??? Because the program I was in was used as a model for future treatment programs...many operate today exactly or highly similar as Straight Inc. did. Do your homework...this can be confirmed with complete and unbiased research. Your beliefs about programs seems based on what is called hearsay, not hard cold facts.
"I defended something that many people choose to bash because it's the popular and cool thing to do. I wish you all would realize that I do not justify either death at ABR-I simply don't believe ABR was at fault for them. It's a shame that these two young men had died, but I also believe ABR is not the one to blame or point the finger at here. It's also a shame ABR and its eight branches had to be closed considering the millions of young men that they had helped change their lives around. You all may not agree with the program, but the fact is, for many of those teens, the program worked-it was exactly want they needed. But to expect a 100% success rate in these programs isn't realistic."
And by the way...Straight claimed to have a high success rate...which I can say that that claim was total bullshit and a mere salespitch...many kids were severely damaged by Straight's methods. Get over "success rates," that means absolutely nothing. And no I am not a bitter teen whose just pissed about going to a treatment program, if you read enough of my posts...that will be crystal clear. And what will also be clear is my anger and frustration with people who continue to blindly defend treatment programs while at the same time dismissing survivor stories as exaggerations/lies.
Please set aside your personal biases, open your eyes and see the ugly truth.
And one more thing....I personally would be extremely happy if I found out about a good program...but so far it hasn't happened yet. I would also hope the incident that started this debate was in fact an accident, but since I know first hand how staff routinely ignores medical complaints...the odds that this story was truly child abuse and neglect is very high. Admittedly i do not know the facts as I was not there to witness them...neither were you. But I do know how kids are commontly mistreated in programs generally. But I also will say that the facts you cited are highly suspect at best. I find it difficult, based on my experience, to beleive this was an accident or as a result of the childs misconduct. If it was, someone is using higly dangerous disciplinary methods in the first place.
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As far as OverLordd's belief that God doesn't allow bad things to happen....well, I guess we'll just have to agreee to disagree. That's fine if our personal, religious beliefs differ. No arguing is going to change either of our opinions. But I strongly believe that Satan has to approach God and ask Him permission before Satan does any wrong. (temptation) Its is then upto us as humans whether we give into Satan's temptation or not. And I also believe God ALLOWS bad things to happen (even to good people) for His greater good. He can use bad things to touch other people's lives and bring more lost souls to Him.
Look, time for alittle theology debate here. Ok To start with. God is completely good. He is holy, he is perfect. That is important, it is a main idea in christianity. God cannot have a hand in anything evil, or he would no longer be holy and good. This of course includes having any hand in anything done wrong. If God were to give permission to do something wrong then he would lose his holyness and would no longer be perfect. If God gave permission he would be an accomplace to the crime. God has given the devil free will to do as he pleases. The only reason the devil talked to God about Job is because Job was under Gods protection as a holy person. It was a test for Job to see if he would still love God, this is not a evidence of bad things happen to good people, but a holy person staying holy even as he is tested.
Others were just assigned there by the judge. Unfortunately, this country does not grant a trial by jury to everyone. While this may be the most fair approach, it also isn't realistic and practical. It is an expensive and tedious process. The jurors have to be notified, interviewed and choosen before the person may even appear in court. If the US granted a fair trial jury to every person tried with a crime (stealing a candy bar, murder, DUI, disturbing the peace,drug possession, rape, drunk and disorderly..), the accussed would have to wait months just awaiting trial because our system would be so incerdibly backed up. What do you suggest we should do with them while they are awaiting their trial?? Keep them locked up in jail?
Once the justice system breaks down terrable things happen. I believe some of those terrable things are lynchings, specialiuty boarding schools, and people getting off on technicalities. You have got to hold to the justice sysstem and the law no matter what or we have break downs in socity. The consitution applys to every one unless it is taken away from them by ddue prossess. Due prossess is a trial by jury of your peers, not by a judge. Put the person out on bail, its done all the time. We have got to give people their rights, and we have got to follow the law or we are just as bad as those that break the law. So they wait for it, so what let them wait, let them worry, but give them their rights.
Also, I would like to thank you, OverLordd. You have been a generous and respectful host.
And your more well behaved then most people that agrue on this site.
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The California state officials quoted in the above article state that ABR wouldbe an illegal operation in California state. Then why did the state continue to send these troubled teens there. Even at the "ban" was implemented and even after Contreraz's death, California continued to assign boys to ABR and paid for their enrollment. So California tried to act like they solved their side of the issue and really all they did was point fingers and blame and then try to look like the good guys in the public eyes all the while continuing the very practices they criticized. As far as ABR "clashing" with California regulations, maybe that is because it is called ARIZONA Boys Ranch and not CALIFORNIA Boys Ranch. No where does it say that if you accept teens from one state that you have to abid by their regulations. No it says that any program needs to abide by the rules and regulations set by the state the program is occupying. So that statement is irregardless.
Please explain to me what the article meant by "physcological abuse". I guess if you all are going to accuse a program of just one thing then you must accuse it of all the possible abuses, huh?? So much for innocent until proven guilty. And if you had kept up with ANY of those staff members' cases, you would have seen that they were dismissed of all charges. But you are interested in that or pay attention to follow-up details. Their names have been cleared. And to say staff members were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically abusive is absurd. No supervisor or staff member would tolerate such advice.
And as to Nonconformistlaw, all I can say again is, you did not attend ABR so don't compare the two. I'm sorry you had such a tramatic experience at your previous facilities, but not all are like that. I hope one day you do find one that works for you--remember one facility that may not work for one person may work for someone else. And to say my opinions are based on heresay is ridiculous. If you were to read any previous posts, you would discover how much I have researched ABR. I have interviewed ex-ranchers, graduates of ABR, ex-staff (not my father-we have never discussed the topic), and spouses of ex-staff.I have read thousands of papers and reports about ABR-biased and factual. Not to mention I grew up there. But ya know, you're probably right. They were simply putting on this elaborate facade for the whole ten years I was there. Faking the entire time. I spent all day (during the summer) around those boys and know EXACTLY the way they were treated. I believe they are looking for attention they never received as children growing up, especially in the environment they grew up in. And they have found an opportunity to accuse a nationally acclaimed corporation and have decided to take it. These troubled kids have failed to realize the extent of their actions. Not only did they close the ranch, they cost honest men their jobs and their families struggle, they have also stolen the opportunity for other teens to have their second chance in life and fix their problems.
And as the ABR director said, California's probe was biased and misinformed. They took a small pool of ranchers and staff. How did they choose these canidates?? Did they only interview those that spoke against ABR or did they ask for volunteers?? How you approach your subjects is critical for obtaining an unbiased result. For example, if I wanted to prove that Democrats support liberally ideas and irrational methods. (Simply an example-can insert Republicans. No need for a politcal debate) I would need to poll an equal amount of both political parties. I couldn't just poll Republicans against Democrates and Democrates against Republicans.
The article also contained some pretty bold statements written as facts. Such as, " Employees were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically aggressive with residents. Some former employees and residents said physical controls were used for small infractions despite a written Boys Ranch policy to use controls only in instances of danger to self or others." and " Boys Ranch softened ``the tone'' of aggressive treatment when visitors were around". I would like to know how these "facts" were discovered. Where is their "factual" source. What are the names of the former staff members and former residents that said this??
OverLordd, like I said, we will have to just agree to disagree about our religious beliefs. I totally-100% agree with you that God is perfect and holy and pure. But he is also all-knowing and omniscient. He knows what we will do when tempted before we even face the temptation. And He uses our sins for His plan and for His good. We may learn a certain lesson and not sin next time we are tempted, we may also touch others lives and hopefully, possibly have others come to Him. But I also believe God is in control of everything. He doesn't allow anything to hapen that isn't according to his plan. He gives us free will while He controls everything else.
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I wrote the ^^ above post, sorry, forgot to sign in!! Opps.
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I'm sorry you had such a tramatic experience at your previous facilities, but not all are like that. I hope one day you do find one that works for you
:rofl:
Daughter, why don't you find a program that works for you? Perhaps, you should be sent to ABR. I'm told it comes highly recommended.
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On 2005-09-22 21:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The California state officials quoted in the above article state that ABR wouldbe an illegal operation in California state. Then why did the state continue to send these troubled teens there. Even at the "ban" was implemented and even after Contreraz's death, California continued to assign boys to ABR and paid for their enrollment. So California tried to act like they solved their side of the issue and really all they did was point fingers and blame and then try to look like the good guys in the public eyes all the while continuing the very practices they criticized. As far as ABR "clashing" with California regulations, maybe that is because it is called ARIZONA Boys Ranch and not CALIFORNIA Boys Ranch. No where does it say that if you accept teens from one state that you have to abid by their regulations. No it says that any program needs to abide by the rules and regulations set by the state the program is occupying. So that statement is irregardless.
Please explain to me what the article meant by "physcological abuse". I guess if you all are going to accuse a program of just one thing then you must accuse it of all the possible abuses, huh?? So much for innocent until proven guilty. And if you had kept up with ANY of those staff members' cases, you would have seen that they were dismissed of all charges. But you are interested in that or pay attention to follow-up details. Their names have been cleared. And to say staff members were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically abusive is absurd. No supervisor or staff member would tolerate such advice.
And as to Nonconformistlaw, all I can say again is, you did not attend ABR so don't compare the two. I'm sorry you had such a tramatic experience at your previous facilities, but not all are like that. I hope one day you do find one that works for you--remember one facility that may not work for one person may work for someone else. And to say my opinions are based on heresay is ridiculous. If you were to read any previous posts, you would discover how much I have researched ABR. I have interviewed ex-ranchers, graduates of ABR, ex-staff (not my father-we have never discussed the topic), and spouses of ex-staff.I have read thousands of papers and reports about ABR-biased and factual. Not to mention I grew up there. But ya know, you're probably right. They were simply putting on this elaborate facade for the whole ten years I was there. Faking the entire time. I spent all day (during the summer) around those boys and know EXACTLY the way they were treated. I believe they are looking for attention they never received as children growing up, especially in the environment they grew up in. And they have found an opportunity to accuse a nationally acclaimed corporation and have decided to take it. These troubled kids have failed to realize the extent of their actions. Not only did they close the ranch, they cost honest men their jobs and their families struggle, they have also stolen the opportunity for other teens to have their second chance in life and fix their problems.
And as the ABR director said, California's probe was biased and misinformed. They took a small pool of ranchers and staff. How did they choose these canidates?? Did they only interview those that spoke against ABR or did they ask for volunteers?? How you approach your subjects is critical for obtaining an unbiased result. For example, if I wanted to prove that Democrats support liberally ideas and irrational methods. (Simply an example-can insert Republicans. No need for a politcal debate) I would need to poll an equal amount of both political parties. I couldn't just poll Republicans against Democrates and Democrates against Republicans.
The article also contained some pretty bold statements written as facts. Such as, " Employees were encouraged by peers and supervisors to be physically aggressive with residents. Some former employees and residents said physical controls were used for small infractions despite a written Boys Ranch policy to use controls only in instances of danger to self or others." and " Boys Ranch softened ``the tone'' of aggressive treatment when visitors were around". I would like to know how these "facts" were discovered. Where is their "factual" source. What are the names of the former staff members and former residents that said this??
OverLordd, like I said, we will have to just agree to disagree about our religious beliefs. I totally-100% agree with you that God is perfect and holy and pure. But he is also all-knowing and omniscient. He knows what we will do when tempted before we even face the temptation. And He uses our sins for His plan and for His good. We may learn a certain lesson and not sin next time we are tempted, we may also touch others lives and hopefully, possibly have others come to Him. But I also believe God is in control of everything. He doesn't allow anything to hapen that isn't according to his plan. He gives us free will while He controls everything else. "
Yeah, God is in control all right and is PISSED OFF at the way kids are being abused and even slaughtered by their so-called caregivers.
FORNITS is here for a purpose. It is the voice of thousands of survivors of TEEN GULAGS trying to save their brothers and sisters from abuse, exploitation, and victimization.
Your voice daughter, is small, and means nothing, except to remind us that EVIL (the devil himself) is everywhere.
Go now, find another way to spread your message of hate. We will pray for you.
:wave:
Sorry, perhaps you should consider
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Of course they were cleared. Did you honestly expect Arizona to admit they abused kids for profit?
Sheesh. Daughter, either you are really naive or just plain desperate.
Chuck Long II was the first (hopefully not the last) person convicted for his role in the death of Tony Haynes. And what did he get? 6 years.
Real tough, Arizona. NOT!
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Tony Haynes was not a resident of Arizona Boys Ranch. That is the program I am concerned about. I have not researched other facilities and have no desire about what occurred there. So like I have said multiple times, don't bring up other programs because I will not discuss them since I have no concern for other programs, such as American Buffalo Solider Ranch where Tony Haynes attended.
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On 2005-09-23 17:45:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"Tony Haynes was not a resident of Arizona Boys Ranch. That is the program I am concerned about. I have not researched other facilities and have no desire about what occurred there. So like I have said multiple times, don't bring up other programs because I will not discuss them since I have no concern for other programs, such as American Buffalo Solider Ranch where Tony Haynes attended. "
Fine, keep your head in the sand. Kids are abused and even killed in para-military style programs, like the one where Tony Haynes died.
That's a fact, whether you care to acknowedge it or not.
:wave:
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On 2005-09-22 06:17:00, Jarhead6 wrote:
"Nihilanthic, I feel that you may have missed my point, and perhaps that is my fault for not stating it more clearly. Both ?Daughter? and Deborah opened the door about former military working with kids. So I feel that my post, while maybe not totally clear, does fit in this thread. I am not defending the actions of the staff at the ranch, I personally condemn their actions and lack of action in both of the case being discussed. SO to put a point on it here are the points I was hitting at.
1. Are there good programs: Yes.
2. Are there bad programs: Yes
3. Are there prior military that should not work with kids: Yes
4. Are there non-military that should not work with kids: Yes
5. Are there things that are taught in the military that cross over and can be useful to anyone: Yes ( i.e. the ?laundry list)
6. Are there things inherent to the military that have no place outside of the military: Yes
I did not mean to imply that using a military like boot camp approach was the way to instill the ?list? in fact I said ?These are some of the things that I tried to teach the students that I worked with, not only by talking about them, but also by living by them.?
Actual military boot camp has a very specific purpose, and as you said it is for consenting adults. I agree with that completely. The effectiveness of it is based on the individuals choice to be there and participate fully, that is why it works so well. But to say that the lessons that things that the military ties to instill in people have no bearing is in my opinion a bit closed minded. It?s how the lesson is taught that makes it relevant. I use the list in conducting corporate training, do I bark orders at CEO?s, hell no, they get their backs up and they don?t see the value of the concept. The same goes for kids, it?s the delivery technique that makes it truly effective.
Training someone for war is one thing, trying to teach people things that may be of use in their lives is another. In my opinion it does not matter where the info comes from, it is how it is EFFECTIVLY TAUGHT, that makes the difference. It is always up to the students to ultimately decide if they want to apply the information to their lives. In my personal experience the foundation to teaching is a strong personal relationship based on trust and mutual respect. Give them the tools and let them loose, they have to choose how they want to use them, but if the only tool you have is a hammer, then the whole world looks like a nail.
As far as the staff being refered to in this thread, well in my opinion they are culpable for the death of these students, I?d bring the rope, somebody find me a tree. I hope that this clearly states my opinions.
"
I basically agree with that, especially that truth and knowledge is basically axiomatic and it doesnt matter where it comes from, me or god or a maniac (though some carlbrookies might disagree).
But it also means that "military" this and that is irrelevant. The way you deal with kids is the way you deal with kids, not the way you give grown men a tough skin to deal with combat. The old prussian model (thats what it is, right?) of group conformity and humiliation to deal with children is going to fail and not POSITIVELY impact recidivism, no matter how much someone glorifies it or someones daugther or anyone else thinks its god's way.
You can give tools and teach stuff but you cant 'instill' something into a child forcefully without doing the sort of LGA bullshit most people here have had more than their fill of. So what Id want to ask is... why did you bring up the laundry list of what makes a good soldier?
Theyre not soldiers and are not supposed to be made into one in a 'therapy' camp for CHILDREN. If you mean setting a good example, then yes, thats fine. But a laundry list of character traits that are basically impossible to 'instill' into someone without LGA seminars if at all kind of struck me as... odd.
Lets be honest here. The only thing the majority of these camps really do is break them down so theyre afraid to do anything but tow the line so they dont have to suffer through it again. I understand good intentions but until I see otherwise with the punitive bootcamp model, Id quote that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Now, if its not a punitive bootcamp, thats a different story :tup: When he [Califano] claims that the voters of Arizona and California did not know what they were voting for when they supported the two initiatives, he reminds me of the way Serbia's President Slobodan Milosevic reacted to recent election results in that country.
-- George Soros -- Sunday, February 2 1997; Page C01 The Washington Post
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[ This Message was edited by: Jarhead6 on 2006-01-25 10:55 ]
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Don't high schools have Junior ROTC programs? Why send your kid to a para-military "boarding school" when they can enroll in JROTC?
Same with college where kids can join ROTC, get a free education and enter the military as a commissioned officer.
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On 2005-09-26 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Don't high schools have Junior ROTC programs? Why send your kid to a para-military "boarding school" when they can enroll in JROTC?
Same with college where kids can join ROTC, get a free education and enter the military as a commissioned officer.
"
Oops, I just remembered. These programs are VOLUNTARY. The teen can't be kidnapped and forced into a JROTC program.
:silly:
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Vast difference between boot camps and JROTC in school. Can't compare apples and oranges.
To my knowledge schools don't force march participants in black sweats or subject them to excessive PT for punishment. They don't deny them water or food or medical attention if needed.
Parents/society WOULD NOT tolerate the abuses common to boot camps on the outside. And the ocassional sadistic abuser would be prosecuted and likely loose his/her job.
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On 2005-09-26 08:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Vast difference between boot camps and JROTC in school. Can't compare apples and oranges.
To my knowledge schools don't force march participants in black sweats or subject them to excessive PT for punishment. They don't deny them water or food or medical attention if needed.
Parents/society WOULD NOT tolerate the abuses common to boot camps on the outside. And the ocassional sadistic abuser would be prosecuted and likely loose his/her job.
"
Exactly, so why don't parents encourage their kids to join JROTC instead of shipping them off to abusive PRIVATE boot camps?
The answer?
BECAUSE THEY CAN.
And because many parents simply want to get rid of their kids and pay somebody else to deal with them.
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JROTC is a wonderful program and I whole-heartedly support it along with all the other interest groups out there, Fire Fighter Exploers, Junior Law Enforcement Groups, etc. They are honorable societies to be apart of and favored well in this country. Thanks for bringing it up, Jarhead.
However, these boys were mostly sent to ABR by the judges that presided over their criminal cases. Their parents didn't send them there. Well at least not intentionally. The fact that these parents have no control and no disciple over their own children anymore is what ultimately sent these boys there. Had these boys had positive role models and people to hold them accountable for their actions, maybe they wouldn't have committed crimes that ended them up in the justice system to begin with. But, I 100% agree with you that there are people who work at these facilities, including ABR, that care about these kids and are ex-military. Ex-military people, to me, are honorable and respectable. Without them, who knows where are country might be. They are instilled with respect for authority and a love for our country and citizens. I think this is what makes them great at working with troubled teens. They can teach them such qualities, instill some character in them, break their walls down, and turn their lives around.
PT is simply "Physical Training". It's like PE. Contrary to your rumors about PT, ABR didn't deny these boys water or medical attention. They didn't pass out daily from it or become physically ill due to PT. A nurse was present 24 hours a day, there was water fountains around every corner. All these kids did was push-up, jumping jacks, sit-ups, and some cardio for a short allotted time roughly 4 times a week. Their cardio could even consist of basketball, football, running or another sport the boys enjoyed. Sounds like really punishment. Public schools have "Physical Education" so why can't these programs have "Physical Training"? Afterall, they were all still in high school. There's a good possibility PT was mandated by the law, just like PE is mandated for public schools. Ever stop to think about that??
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Daughter ... can you read?
If so, please do a google search on juvenile boot camps where you will learn that many of them have been shut down either for abuse or because as study after study has shown, they simply don't work, and in fact, do more harm than good.
:idea:
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Yeah, Hitler had a way with youth too.
Daughter, no offense, but it seems to me you have a really bad attitude.
Give me 50!
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Here ya go Ms. Boot-Camp Fanatic (AKA "daugher") read it and weep. Juvenile Boot Camps R.I.P.
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National Institutes of Health Says Boot Camps Don't Work
Recently the National Institutes of Health hosted a conference in Maryland about juvenile violence and the best ways to treat it. Experts agreed that state and private boot camps with military-style discipline do not work and can even make problems worse (Ref 7).?
These boot camps began as ?shock incarceration? places for first-time adult offenders. The idea was to make a person?s time served so unpleasant that he or she would be ?scared straight? and ?shocked? into behaving better and avoiding another sentence (Ref 4). In the late 1980s state-run boot camps for juveniles came into style as a way to keep them out of adult prisons and to keep their sentences short (Ref 5).
In the case of young people, the hope was that three months in boot camp would quickly and cheaply turn around the juvenile?s behavior. A day in boot camp was highly structured with an early morning wake-up that may include a five-mile run before breakfast. If a juvenile broke a rule, he or she would be required to do push-ups or perform hard physical labor.
These camps were also run by private organizations, as worried parents would send their children away to ?military school? in the hope that the stern discipline and system of punishments would make their child more conforming to the rules of school and society.
However, preliminary studies done as early as 1990 were indicating that juvenile boot camps did not work ( Ref 4 ). In some cases, attendees committed more serious crimes after boot camp because they had learned techniques from their contact with more experienced offenders. In the case of private military schools, students functioned fine at the highly structured school, but returned to old behaviors once they got home.
As Harvard professor and psychiatrist Leon Eisenberg said at the NIH conference October 15, 2004, "Whatever these programs may do or not do for the child while he's in the institutional setting, [they] leave him completely adrift when the treatment is over. Some of these programs are, frankly, quite dreadful." (Ref 7).
To make matters worse, there has been a rash of boot camp scandals within the past few years. In one notorious case, an overweight 14-year-old lay unattended for hours in the sun after a three-mile run, and later died from heart failure. She had been put in camp after stealing $25 from a friend (Ref 2).
A 1996 study of three all-male boot camps in Colorado, Ohio and Alabama showed academic benefits to the system ( Ref 6 ). Boys attending camp received more individual academic attention and gained an average one grade to a year?s improvement in reading, spelling and math. The bad news was once they returned to their families and neighborhoods, most fell back into their old ways. Over 70% were arrested within a year of attending boot camp.
Professor Margaret Beyer writes that teens in particular do not respond to authority they cannot respect. Because their brains are not fully developed, teens view the world as black and white.
?They are fairness fanatics,? she writes. Teens hate group punishment and rebel against unfair punitive authority. Most studies of boot camps report that teens actively dislike their guards. Instead of respecting camp rules, they viewed rules as unfair and something to get around (Ref 1). Thus boot camps actually teach more hostility to rules and authority.
If bullying offenders with military style discipline and other scare tactics does not turn around a young person?s life, what methods do work?
Psychologists agree that for permanent behavior change, there must be an internal change in thinking. This three-step process is called ?self-revelation.? In Step 1, a person realizes his or her current behavior is self-destructive. In Step 2, he or she seeks ways to become more positive. In Step 3, the person changes his behavior. Self-revelation is more likely to come about when a teen can honestly and openly discuss his situation within a supportive and mutually respectful adult relationship.
?Positive behavior support? also works, which means instead of punishing bad behavior, a system rewards good behavior ( Ref 4 ). Keep in mind that the boot camp model is all about punishing bad behavior.
Finally, the teen?s family must be involved in the process. The NIH study concluded programs with the best results included family counseling ( Ref 7 ). The teenager and his family needed to openly resolve their disappointments and anger with each other, and then go on to appreciate what was good and lovable about one another.
In conclusion, a good program includes excellent academics in which a teen can succeed, positive discipline methods within a structure of caring not punishing adults, and family counseling to maintain the positive changes that occurred during the program.
"Military-style boot camps have been haunted by abusive staff members, even as they were being touted as cheap, effective prison space-savers and politically tasty." David J. Krajicek, MSNBC, December 23, 1999
http://www.boot-camps-info.com/nihbootcamps.html (http://www.boot-camps-info.com/nihbootcamps.html)
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PT is simply "Physical Training". It's like PE.
wow, daughter, your alittle behind arent you. PT is nothing at all like PE. I dont know what PE class you were in but PE was fun, PT sucks. PT hurts, I vomited monday thanks to PT, I never vomited during PE
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Call me, Hitler; say I have a bad attitude. I really could care less. I am not concerned with what has occurred at other facilities during their PTs. I defend Arizona Boys Ranch here, not all the programs in general. I have said this from the start. I have also said that I believe there are good programs out there and bad ones. Every kid needs something different. So all you anyonymous posters aren't presenting a very convincing arguement.
OverLordd, I guess it can be a little excruciating when you're out of shape. Its tough work, but maybe these kids will learn to obey and respect authority so they won't have to do so much of it. But once you're in shape, you feel better mentally and physically and PT isn't that bad. I've done it before, yeah, it's tough. But the boys only did it for less an hour a day.
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***Its tough work, but maybe these kids will learn to obey and respect authority so they won't have to do so much of it.
You mean "less [than] an hour a day"?
How does "less than an hour a day" of exercise teach obedience and foster respect?
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OverLordd, I guess it can be a little excruciating when you're out of shape. Its tough work, but maybe these kids will learn to obey and respect authority so they won't have to do so much of it. But once you're in shape, you feel better mentally and physically and PT isn't that bad. I've done it before, yeah, it's tough. But the boys only did it for less an hour a day.
Of all the disrepectful things to say!!! You have no idea do you, you think that if you respect your supperiors you get out of PT? You dont, its manditory, and it should not be for some poor kid.
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I couldn't agree more Three Springs!! Absolutely, true--every single word!! Thank you!
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Like DAUGHTER has said, OverLordd, these kids aren't there to have fun. They're there to serve a punishment. They're not "some poor kids" that are tortured under the "rule of torturous staff members" as you all believe. They are there because they have committed crimes and broken the law. People who work with these troubled teens have to break down their walls and relentless attitudes to reach these kids and turn their lives around. Wake up and see the truth.
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Before this topic gets way off into justifying what happened to Nick, or passing off abuse as f'ing exercise....
WHAT FOLLOWS IS NOT EXERCISE OR DISCIPLINE OR ROUTINE OR PROPER CARE. IT IS ABUSE:
Employees at the paramilitary-style camp, where hundreds of California youth offenders are sent, had already tried to deal with Nick's incontinence by MAKING HIM SLEEP IN SOILED UNDERWEAR, ordering him to DROP HIS PANTS SO THAT OTHER BOYS COULD INSPECT THEM, requiring he FINISH WHATEVER PHYSICAL ACTIVITY [EXERCISE???] he was engaged in BEFORE USING THE RESTROOM, making him EAT DINNER WHILE SITTING ON THE TOILET and, near the end of his life, making him CARRY A YELLOW TRASH BASKET FILLED WITH HIS SOILD CLOTES AND HIS OWN VOMIT.
At times he was instructed to do push-ups that LOWERED HIS FACE INTO THE FOUL-SMELLING BASKET.
On the day before he died, Nick COLLAPSED SEVERAL TIMES DURING PHYSICAL TRAINING. After he fell while running up a hill, staff bundled him into a wheelbarrow and made another boy push him around the camp. Nick was told to make the sound of an ambulance siren.
On the day he died, a staff member told Nick he deserved an ACADEMY AWARD FOR RAKING.
Nick collapsed for the last time about 5:30 p.m. on March 2. Staff members, who had SPENT THE DAY ORDERING MORE AND MORE PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT, [NOT ROUTINE, NOT EXERCISE- A HALF HOUR ACCORDING TO DAUGHTER] issued their last command. Get up, Nick was told. "No" was the last word he spoke.
Babb failed to note any illness, even as Nick rapidly lost weight--as much as 20 pounds--and began to VOMIT SEVERAL TIMES A DAY, ate little food and began defecating on himself. Nearly each time he saw the nurse, she cleared him for PHYSICAL EXERCISE, according to the sheriff's investigation.
Other boys reported that Nick's vomiting was so regular that staff would mock him, start a countdown and say: "He's gonna blow!"
According to one 16-year-old boy, everyone watched as Nick was DAILY BELITTLED BY STAFF when he WAS UNABLE TO DO PT.
"They'd tell him, 'Keep going!' or 'get up off your knees!,' " the boy told investigators. "If he didn't keep doing the push-ups, then they'd PICK HIM UP AND START PUSHIN' HIM UP AND HE'D START CRYING, he'd say, 'I can't do it.' They start MOCKING HIM, 'I can't, I can't,' like he was a little kid. They'd start pickin' him up and BEATIN' HIM AGAINST THE GROUND. He would let out a series of yelps, like, 'OW!,' but they kept doin' it."
As he grew more physically unable to perform physical exercise, he was PUNISHED BY BEING MADE TO DO MORE.
"They try and MAKE HIM WORK HARDER THAN ANYBODY ELSE HERE, they make him do PT and he throw up all over the place," he said. "They don't even make him clean up. [They] make him KEEP GOING AND GOING AND GOING. He'll throw up like three times a day but they KEEP MAKING HIM DO PT."
Staff members told investigators that they viewed Nick's complaints and collapses AS A TRICK to get out of work. Andres Torres, Nick's Boys Ranch case manager, told sheriff's deputies that the boy never said anything to him about being sick.
Residents have adopted their own terminology, including "Wall to Wall Counseling," which means BEING THROWN AROUND THE POOL ROOM BY STAFFERS, and "Texas sandstorm," in which residents EXERCISE FOR TWO HOURS IN A SEALED AND HEATED BARRACKS. [A HALF HOUR, DAUGHTER????]
Among the complaints against staffers at the ranch that licensing authorities have substantiated: A boy was HIT ON THE HEAD WITH A SHOVEL, a boy's HEAD REPEATEDLY DUNKED IN WATER, a boy's FEET WERE BURNED so severely in hot water that he required skin grafts, a boy's NOSE WAS BROKEN AFTER HIS HEAD WAS SLAMMED INTO A TABLE.
* In 1995, the ranch fired two employees who struck a 15-year-old California boy 25 to 30 times.
* Newly released Arizona Department of Economic Security records show that in a 1996 internal memo, five employees complained that Boys Ranch was hostile and uncooperative and "CONTINUES TO ABUSE CHILDREN, THWART REGULATIONS AND USE THEIR POLITICAL INFLUENCE TO COMBAT NONCOMPLIANCE OF LICENSING RULES." The documents also show that DES agreed to give the ranch 48 hours' notice before undertaking any inspections.
* The ranch's LICENSE HAS BEEN PUT ON PROVISIONAL STATUS BECAUSE OF ABUSE THREE TIMES. In the latest case, its license was renewed in 1996, with the stipulation that it enact more stringent reporting on ill or hurt children and increase staff training on the use of physical restraint and control.
ANYONE WITH A LICK OF INTELLEGENCE KNOWS WHAT THE SHERIFF KNEW:
Sheriff's investigators ran into a circle-the-wagons mentality when they questioned the staff about Nick's death. At one point, Detective M.C. Downing was losing his patience. He had been questioning Oscar Peru Jr., staff orientation lead, about what takes place at the camp and he got consistently similar answers.
Det. Downing: Mr. Peru, enough, OK? . . . you guys are driving me crazy. Every staff member I've talked [to] in here, they sugar coat everything. Do you see stupid on my forehead?
Peru: No, I don't.
Downing: All right. Let's get over this [expletive], OK? I'm tired of hearing the sugar coating. I basically know what goes on here. I was military . . . and you guys gonna sit here and tell me you're being polite? Ain't gonna happen. I know that, he knows that, everybody that has to deal with this place knows that . . .
Det. Downing: Something was wrong with him the last two weeks of his life.
Torres: I disagree with that, Det. Downing. [It was] his ruse to [get] out of the program, I don't feel [it] had anything to do with his health. I looked at it as his way to get out of the program. . . . His way of lying and making up, you know, a fictitious story.
Downing: Obviously there was a problem. He died.
Torres: Yes.
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PT, like hell. This boy died! Daughter, you need to shut the f.... up!
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Rest in Peace, Nick.
Daughter, Go To Hell.
:flame:
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On 2005-09-28 21:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Like DAUGHTER has said, OverLordd, these kids aren't there to have fun. They're there to serve a punishment. They're not "some poor kids" that are tortured under the "rule of torturous staff members" as you all believe. They are there because they have committed crimes and broken the law. People who work with these troubled teens have to break down their walls and relentless attitudes to reach these kids and turn their lives around. Wake up and see the truth. "
I thought that when you get "punished" you're supposed to LIVE through it so you learn a lesson...?
What did this child learn from being murdered. I don't get it. When you punish your kids, are they still alive when you're done with them?
I'd like to punish you, you sick fuck.
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On 2005-09-28 21:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Like DAUGHTER has said, OverLordd, these kids aren't there to have fun. They're there to serve a punishment. They're not "some poor kids" that are tortured under the "rule of torturous staff members" as you all believe. They are there because they have committed crimes and broken the law. People who work with these troubled teens have to break down their walls and relentless attitudes to reach these kids and turn their lives around. Wake up and see the truth. "
Whoa, what?! I've worked in programs for six years, and I can assure you that at the places I've worked, the purpose is never to punish anyone, or have them serve time. Most of the kids we serve have not broken the law, other than using drugs. And we certainly aren't trying to break down anything. I urge you to get more information on how these things work.
The perfect formula for failure with kids includes punishing them for things they can't change. The only thing you can do is offer them some opportunities to change what they do now and in the future.
Giving a student a consequence--which, by the way, consists of nothing more than a loss of points--has nothing to do with pounishing him or her for past "crimes." Admittedly, some of these kids have seriously annoying attitude, but the fact is, most of them end up in trouble because they're bright and creative, and just used it wrong. So let them keep the attitude (if we can define it as a state of mind demonstrated by a desire for autonomy and individuality). Just show them how they can make it work. :razz:
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August 1993
"BOOT CAMP" PROGRAMS
(On May 7, 1993, The Huntsville Times reported a nineteen year old boy died at a young adult "boot camp" in Alabama from heart failure during physical training. The following is a copy of a letter sent to President Bill Clinton on April 5, 1993. Mr. Burns urges all professionals to contact President Clinton on the matter of "Boot Camps" as a part of juvenile corrections.
(As we go to press, President Clinton has just announced his proposed Crime Bill which includes boot camps for juvenile offenders as a significant part of his proposal. - Lon)
President William J. Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20500
Dear President Clinton:
As a professional in the field of child and adolescent treatment, I am very concerned about administration considerations to expand utilization of "Boot Camp" programs within juvenile corrections. It appears this interest is growing more due to the potential economic and political benefits rather than the realization of their potential. In fact, I am aware of no reliable evidence which supports "Boot Camp" effectiveness, while I am aware of a considerable body of research which shows such approaches and techniques used by "Boot Camps" are, at best, ineffective and, at worst, harmful.
These programs rely on aggressive confrontation, harsh discipline, extreme physical exertion, and strict obedience to those with power. The basic beliefs are these methods will 1) "scare" these kids "straight" 2) improve self confidence and esteem (pride over having survived the experience) and 3) punish them for their criminal behavior. I think such programs certainly punish, but little else. In fact, it is highly likely such treatment increases the probability of antisocial behavior and decreases self confidence and self esteem. Reports on these programs reveal that as high as forty percent (40%) of the youth "wash out" and, that for those who finish, recidivism rates are the same as for those who complete the typical corrections program. Based on this information, one has to ask exactly what has been accomplished?
Also of importance is the question of humane and non-abusive care and treatment. Quite frankly, the harsh verbal and physical aspects of these programs would not be permitted by state licensing authorities in other child care, treatment or custodial facilities. I can tell you emphatically such practices would be regarded as abusive and actions would be taken against the facility. While we still have a long way to go in terms of providing quality treatment and rehabilitative care to youth in this country, I certainly think we should not regress to the point where we think that verbal abuse, mindless and/or extreme physical exertion, and humiliating consequences for rule infractions (i.e. wearing baby bottles around the neck) are suitable practices which produce positive results. Such an environment will generally only become more and more abusive. This was the case for the "Boot Camp" opened in Birmingham, Alabama. The camp was closed in 1992 after it became clear to external authorities that youth were being emotionally and physically abused by their "instructors". Unfortunately, I think this facility may recently have been allowed to reopen. From a child protection and civil rights viewpoint, such treatment is not compatible with our public policy and laws for the protection, care and treatment of children and adolescents.
[And to the several comments Daughter has made about these violent teen criminals who might harm 'innocents' like herself]
Finally, I wish to point out some of the characteristics of the youth most likely to be placed in these programs. First, these are not the hardened, dangerous, violent juvenile criminals. These are excluded from participation due to their offenses. The youth enrolled are those which have generally committed non-violent property crimes or drug offenses. The participants typically will come from economically and socially disadvantaged homes with histories of emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. Educationally, they will be significantly behind with little or no usable job skills. Psychologically, many will show clear symptoms of a variety of diagnosable psychiatric disorders which are often the result of the brutal treatment they have already received in their young lives. Are these youth who will benefit from such a program? If anything, this experience is simply more of the same. I think many of these psychologically impaired youth will only be further damaged, traumatized and lost.
In closing, President Clinton, I want to urge you not to support or encourage the continued development of such programs. I and other professionals, I am sure, would gladly give of our time and expertise to provide assistance and consultation in this area. While we don't have all the answers about what works, we do know about some things which clearly do not work. "Boot Camps" do not work and cross the line between firm guidance and discipline to abuse.
Sincerely,
Christopher Burns, MA
Vice-President - Operations
Three Springs Treatment Programs.
Huntsville, Alabama
205-880-3339
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews06.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1993/8/news06.html)
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PT is not the worst thing in the world your ever going to do in a program OL.
Haha, I dont know TSW, its my personal view that PT sucks worse than getting shot at, but thats just me. :grin:
They are there because they have committed crimes and broken the law.
And they did not have a fair trial. Ok... lets see. I say you broke the law, now I'm going order you to go to prison. It does not work that way does it? You would dislike that wouldent you? Because once I kidnapped you out of your home all bets would be off. Once I got you out in the middle of no where I could do anything I wanted to you, including abuse you as much as I fucking felt like. These children did not have a fair trial. So I will say they broke the law once they had a fair trial.
I encourage PT as a part of the over all routine.
I disagree, you accually have to want to do the Pt to get anything from it and enjoy it. I hate Pt, but I do it because I want to and I know it need to. These kids just grow up in their hate because people are making them do things they dont want to, and do things that hurt them.
Whoa, what?! I've worked in programs for six years, and I can assure you that at the places I've worked, the purpose is never to punish anyone, or have them serve time. Most of the kids we serve have not broken the law, other than using drugs. And we certainly aren't trying to break down anything. I urge you to get more information on how these things work.
Bam! haha! see first anon! second anon was right, thank you second anon. Oh and second anon, if your from WWASP I will hunt you down... thank you and have a nice day. :grin:
:tup:
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On 2005-09-29 09:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
I've worked in programs for six years, and I can assure you that at the places I've worked, the purpose is never to punish anyone, or have them serve time. Most of the kids we serve have not broken the law, other than using drugs. And we certainly aren't trying to break down anything. I urge you to get more information on how these things work.
So you've worked in programs for six years. That's all just great, but you have never worked in ABR, have you?? NO! More than 90% percent of those boys were sent there because they have committed crimes and broken the laws. So your experience elsewhere is irrelevant. Those are completely different programs and need a completely different approach and structure. I wouldn't handle a criminal delinquent the same way I would handle an anorexic teen. Your approach to these criminals have to be totally different.
Maybe the reason our country is so contaminated with all these juvenile delinguients is because these kids have parents such as yourselves that refuse to punish them. So talking to them is the only way they will learn from right and wrong?? NOT!! Sorry, I may be old fashioned, but I believe in spanking all the way--not beating my kids, but spanking. I would also take away things they like to do-TV, playing w/ friends, etc. Its simply called - consequences for your actions and learning from your mistkes.
I have come to realize that parents with the same mentality such as yours are the reason programs, such as ABR, exist. Your kids will never learn right from wrong and will have no direction or guidance in their lives. They will be rasied with the mentality that they can do whatever they want without having a consequence for their actions. (Well, they may get a talking to, but honestly, what will that ever teach them? What will they ever learn from that.) So I find it ironic you all bash these programs that fix the problems you all create. If stupid people just werent allowed to procreate then neither of us would have to sit here and agree over all this because it just simply wouldn't be an issue.
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DAUGHTER, treatment programs are for that purpose, "TREATMENT" not for punishment; and I do believe you have already been told to shut the f...K up!
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Can you tell me exactly what Nick learned from being KILLED at this program? Just what little life lesson was he taught there you stupid, stupid woman?
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Daughter, I think you have taken the TOUGHLOVE approach to discipline and turned it into a lifestyle.
Get help, lady ... and please, don't have kids. You have a heart of stone.
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On 2005-09-28 21:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"PT, like hell. This boy died! Daughter, you need to shut the f.... up!"
And you all say that these staff members are cruel and mean. You all are advocates for medications and therapy and liberal approaches to dealing with these kids, yet the way you speak to INNOCENT citizens is dispicable. I wouldn't want my kids around any of you. I have never done anything except exercise my freedom of speech here. I haven't done anything wrong. If you don't like what I write--don't read it. Don't visit this forum and don't even waste your time. Telling me to go to hell-mature, real mature, and also VERY loving. I see exactly all your approach. You say what is politically correct but yet do whatever you want. You say you oppose these programs and facilities, but treat others worse than these staff members ever would and I haven't even committed a crime or done anything wrong here. And FYI, I am a born again Christian who works with under-privilidged children. I minister the word of God to these poor children in hopes that they will realize the love God has for them so they wouldn't make choices like these boys. So I will be in Heaven, not hell. I just have different opinions when it comes to consequences, and punishment for our nation's juvenile delinquients.
And to anonymous who posted the fabricated lies concerning Nic's death: consider where you received this "factual" information from--another anti-"boot camp" site. Each one of you have an agenda and aren't willing to post the truth if it goes against your opinions. This is called being biased. The police report isn't biased, and more than half of the things you stated in your little article aren't even mentioned in the police report. Show me an article that isn't loaded with fabriacted and exaggerated lies spread by these biased websites. Maybe then you'll have a convincing arguement. And remember, I used to live on these ranches and no such "Sandroom" exists. LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, and what do you know--so more LIES!! Is that the highlight of your pathetic lives?? Making up crap about facilities which are trying to correct this issue in our nation must be the highlight of you paethtic lives. I have since spoken with more employees and ranchers who all back up my story. No one was hit in their face with a shovel or thrown around rooms. Staff never timed bathroom trips or showers. Nic was never ordered to eat in the bathroom or carry a bucket w/ his clothes around, or drop his pants. This just shows how pathetic your lives truely are.
Love always,
"Boot-Camp Fanatic"
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How dare you call this dead child "Nic"...this boy DIED in that abusive program. Go preach your "Born Again" BS to someone who cares, lady. And may God have mercy on your children, if you have any!
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Like I said, you all treat people (innocent people, at that) horribly. You tell me that these delinquients should be treated with more respect than the way you treat me. I have never told you to "shut the F...K up!!" or "go to hell". Thats just down-right rude. I have never done anything to you exept exercise my freedom here just like you. Treat me with at least the same respect you would give these criminals. You may not like me, but you can at least me civil and respectful. (This is a valuable lesson I learned while growing up at military bases and at ABR. -- oh wow, another positive thing)If you (the anonymous who has posted such hateful replies) has Jesus is your life, you sure don't show it. If you don't have Him in your life, you really should. He helps take away such hatred and anger.
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LADY...no one needs YOU to tell them about religion of any TYPE, OK? I think you do not understand simple ENGLISH. No one cares what you THINK OR SAY. OK? Here's the polite version:
PLEASE BE QUIET!
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I have just as much right to be here as you do. Now who is employing such "scare tactics" that you claim the staff used? You preach against such treatment yet are doing it right here. Such double standards. Practice what you preach.[ This Message was edited by: DAUGHTER on 2005-09-30 16:10 ]
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Bla, bla, bla.....
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Like I have repeatedly said, TSW, respect has to be earned. You have to give it in order to receive it. I have seen both disrespectful and respectful ranchers at ABR and they receieved the exact same treatment that they gave. They were still treated as human beings and had every right as a citizen of this country. However, would I trust these kids?? Not really, they are still there afterall for committing crimes. I treated every rancher with respect, but I really was not allowed to interact with them.
Overall, you get what you give. TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED. When these teens showed consistent respect of authority then they resceived the same respect back. It's simple really. Also another value and moral I learned at the military bases and ABR!! ::bangin::
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Well, DAUGHTER, I just bet you that Nick never wanted to KILL anybody-- and look what happened to this boy, er excuse me, "this criminal"-- he was KILLED while under the fine care at this facility, now wasn't he?
Now what sort of "RESPECT" was this little boy shown?
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Any chance daughter is under age 18? Maybe one of us parents can adopt her and enroll her arrogant butt in an agressive program and she can get her attitude STRAIGHT!
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On 2005-09-30 20:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Any chance daughter is under age 18? Maybe one of us parents can adopt her and enroll her arrogant butt in an agressive program and she can get her attitude STRAIGHT!"
Actually, I will be turning 19 next month. Sorry, just missed your chance. I have wonderful parents anyways, I don't need anyone to take their place. They instilled morals and values and the ability to distinguish right from wrong so that I wouldn't end up like these kids. But thanks anyways. I would rather go to ABR any day than spend one day with a liberal with such ridiculous ideas of punishment and consequences. I fear for our nation's future. At least there's always hope that Jesus will return soon and I can be in paradise rather than this declining nation.
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Actually, I will be turning 19 next month. Sorry, just missed your chance. I have wonderful parents anyways, I don't need anyone to take their place. They instilled morals and values and the ability to distinguish right from wrong so that I wouldn't end up like these kids. But thanks anyways. I would rather go to ABR any day than spend one day with a liberal with such ridiculous ideas of punishment and consequences. I fear for our nation's future. At least there's always hope that Jesus will return soon and I can be in paradise rather than this declining nation. "
So, you care more about the afterlife and religion than this life, and pidgeonhole anyone who disagrees with you as 'liberals' who are simply ridiculous, right?
Hey, why not follow your own advice and be an ascetic and leave everyone alone? If you feel like checking out of this world, please dont let the door hit your ass on the way out!
Unless, of course, you think mortification of children through torture to make them believe in whatever religion you and/or the camp adheres to is just a-okay and that little boy who died went up to heaven, nevermind he never had a chance to live because you in all your emanant omniscence found that to be the best thing to do, and the whole principle of 'human rights' and freedom that this nation and a lot of the world entertians doesnt mesh with your wordlview, and the right to life only applies to unborn embryos, right?Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
--Denis Diderot, French encyclopedist
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Overall, you get what you give. TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED. When these teens showed consistent respect of authority then they resceived the same respect back. It's simple really. Also another value and moral I learned at the military bases and ABR!!
Daugther, military 'structure' is meant for the military; to keep people under control so you can fight with your group against another group, to the death if need be, so that the higher ups can make sure everything goes as they plan and as they say. Its also meant to keep them functioning (and obedient) if they ever go under a psychological regression while in combat... and hey, war is hell and shit happens.
But guess what? The military is the military, its not THE WORLD, its not the way it is or should be outside of it. Neither necessity nor improvement over other ways of living have been demonstrated to me. To YOU, its all you know.
Oh and another thing, why is "authority" intrinsically deserving of "respect"? How do you define either of them? Authority is not intrinsically anything but a power structure - authority thats incompetent, corrupt, malicious, etc is not deserving of respect, now is it?
Furthermore, how do you show 'respect for authority' in your worldview? Obedience and submission?
Oh, and BTW, rights, civility, and respect for someone as a human being isn't 'respect' for authority. A LOT of authority figures in my life have been apathetic, incompetent, or self-absorbed. Im not respecting that for one second, and Id disagree if you think someone whose a 'teen' should by default.
Oh and to conclude... people with degrees who crunched the numbers found that bootcamps dont work. No positive change on recidivism! Seems breaking people and/or indoctrinating them into the way you and your parents live... or to put it more concisely proselytizing someone to be like you isnt 'therapy' and this 'respect' for rank and hierarchy thats drilled into your psyche doesnt matter to anyone outside of your little world.
Individualism and holding people accountable, including those with rank and authority is one of MY values, Daugther.
Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)
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On 2005-09-30 20:56:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
"
On 2005-09-30 20:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Any chance daughter is under age 18? Maybe one of us parents can adopt her and enroll her arrogant butt in an agressive program and she can get her attitude STRAIGHT!"
Actually, I will be turning 19 next month. Sorry, just missed your chance. I have wonderful parents anyways, I don't need anyone to take their place. They instilled morals and values and the ability to distinguish right from wrong so that I wouldn't end up like these kids. But thanks anyways. I would rather go to ABR any day than spend one day with a liberal with such ridiculous ideas of punishment and consequences. I fear for our nation's future. At least there's always hope that Jesus will return soon and I can be in paradise rather than this declining nation. "
Our Nation is in decline due to phony "Conservatives" not liberals. You have aligned yourself with a party that acts directly opposite from their published "platform."
Since "Conservatives" rose to power we have:
-BIGGER government
-BIGGER debt
-MORE poverty
-MORE inequality
-MORE inefficiency
-MORE ineptitude
-LESS civil rights
-LESS freedom
-MORE intrusion of government into private matters
-MORE crime
-MORE illegal immigration
When are these folks going to do what they said they would instead of the exact OPPOSITE?
With all due respect, at 19 you know next to nothing of how the real world works. I'll exercise my right to vote while you wait for Jesus.
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:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
the war on drugs is but one manifestation, albeit a very dramatic one, of the great moral contests of our age -- the struggle between two diametrically opposed images of man: between man as responsible moral agent, 'condemned' to freedom, benefiting and suffering from the consequences of his actions; and man as irresponsible child, unfit for freedom, 'protected' from its risks by agents of the omnicompetent state.
--Thomas Szasz
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This idea of respect being earned...
Like I have repeatedly said, TSW, respect has to be earned. You have to give it in order to receive it. I have seen both disrespectful and respectful ranchers at ABR and they receieved the exact same treatment that they gave. They were still treated as human beings and had every right as a citizen of this country. However, would I trust these kids?? Not really, they are still there afterall for committing crimes.
You do not have to give respect in order for it to be given to you. thats just not they way it works. To start off with you respect people as human beings. These kids were oviosuly not given respect as human beings because, well some of them are dead. Some of them killed them selfs to escape. And they were not given the rights and respect granted a citizen of this country because they did not have a fair tiral to get there. You your self said that daughter. And I hope you dont trust these kids. In all honesty I think they would be perfectly vindicated in putting a gun to your fathers head and pulling the trigger, and torturing you for a good long while, yet thats not the way things are done here.
I have wonderful parents anyways
I cannot make comments about your mother, but from what you have said and what I have learned about your father, he has no honor, and he has passed that on to you in the way he has taught you to treat people. As a side note, if I ever see you in heaven I will start a war right there and then. I will do my damnest to see you cast out.
Moving on. Resepct is one thing... how about kindness? Were these children shown human kindness while at this hell hole?
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Overlord, what is kind about a little boy being killed? NOTHING!
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***Like I have repeatedly said, TSW, respect has to be earned. You have to give it in order to receive it.
Respect comes from a internal feeling of appreciation for another
OR
it is a contrived response learned under duress.
I'd have to say the average boot camp/program has no idea how to foster feelings of genuine respect in the kids, therefore they defer to torture- forcing them to act in a way that is perceived as respectful- often submissive.
Expecting kids who have never felt respected to feel/give genuine respect is about as futile as expecting Daughter to be able to grok that there are more humane ways to acheive the desired goal.
Her kind knows only one way. Punish, terrify the kids until they learn how to ACT. If one, here and there, gets killed in the process... oh well, they were 'criminals' and deserved what they got.... one less 'criminal' the 'innocents' have to worry about.
Damn... didn't jesus choose to hang out with the robbers, theives, and prostitutes over the 'innocents'? I guess he knew something that modern radical right-wing christians don't.
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I'd rather hang out with those "criminal kids" all day than spend one hour with the cruel, Bible-thumping, Jesus-Loves-Me-Yes-He-Does Daughter!
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Do I valued my eternal life with my Heavenly Father over this mortal life with sinners?? In one short word--yes. Absolutely. I have dedicated my life to serving the Lord and my only purpose here on earth is to do His will and tell others about him. I am looking forward to my homecoming and living forever in Heaven. OverLordd, go ahead and try to kick me out of Heaven but the Bibil says once you have accepted the Lord He will never leave you nor foresake you. The Lord knows my heart and it is His grace that allows me to be there, not an imposter such as yourself--the decisiion is not up to you. Saying you wish another person was denied enterance into Heaven is selfish and hypocritical. That is definitly not very Christ-like--we are suppose to share His news to win others for Him and allow them to enjoy eternal life. By saying such a thing, OverLordd, you have shown your level of spirituality. If you are a born-again believer then we are suppose to be brothers and sisters. You saying you want to kick me out of Heaven seems like a demonic and sinful thing to say.
And about starting that war, good luck. Heaven is perfect, remember. Lucifer and his followers had sin in their hearts so they were cast out of Heaven. Starting that war and attempting to cast others out yourself may backfire on you and you just might end up in that very same hell yourself. So by all means, OverLordd, please reconsider this. On a technicality anyways, I believe we will not remember events that occurred on this earth once we are united in heaven so you would have no recolection of who I even am.
For those anonymous posters who bash my religious beliefs and label me as a Bible thumper--what is wrong with me have my own personal beliefs? You obviously have your own and I respect that. I only ask for that very same respect in return. (Oh what do you know it's all back to that very same statement--you have to give respect in order to receive it!!) If you so wish to spend time with juvenile delinquients over me--then so be it. I really don't care and I won't lose sleep at night over it. It doesn't hurt my feelings one bit becasue to tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to spent time with you either. The Bible says you begin to imitate the actions of the people you interact with most. This has even been proven, and I wouldn't want to begin acting or thinking like you do.
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The Bible says you begin to imitate the actions of the people you interact with most. This has even been proven, and I wouldn't want to begin acting or thinking like you do. "
Being vindictive, holier-than-thou, hypocritical and twisted? Yep Yep. :lol:The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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"You do not have to give respect in order for it to be given to you. thats just not they way it works."
Goodness, OL, be careful. You're sounding like the lessons we try to teach the kids!!!! :eek:
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Daughter, there is not a thing wrong with you having your own beliefs... until it comes to using it to justify the abuse of innocent and distressed children- those who are already suffering unawarely from a dysfunctional home and society that has forgotten what the needs of children are... and who could care less... until those children enter the 'age of accountability' and show them how angry they are for being neglected. This dear, has everything to do with iterpretation.
I'd recommend you go to your bible and read only the direct quotes made by 'YOUR' lord- NOT the commentary of those who claimed to speak for him. Nowhere does he advocate the neglect/punishment cycle that kids live with now. THOSE are the words of the Romans who usurped the message of 'YOUR' Lord.
Quite the contrary. If you read carefully you may not sleep well tonight. He wasn't a supproter of sacrificing kids on the alter of profit or narcissism. He damned to 'hell' those that would harm a child. But then, most who fall into that category of souls can not seem to discern that they live in hell now, and are so tormented as to subject others to their beliefs when given the slightest opportunity.
Good luck on getting a free pass into 'heaven'. From my vantage point, you are going to be sorely disappointed, in this life and beyond; if you don't really reevaluate your thinking and beliefs.
That is my opinion. Take it or leave it. One thing for certain... In MY heaven I won't have to mingle with the likes of you. That in itself will be an immense pleasure. You may feel the same.
Let it be.
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I maintain that Daughter should go out get it up the ass from the entire defensive line of the Dallas Cowboys, then come back with some stories to tell us.
Jesus she is like 19 years old. That is not enough life experience to wipe shit stains of a public toilet seat.
All these biblical quotes and protect the daddy crap remind me of some many other bright eyed little dweebs I have met. Sooner or later they all get a friggin clue, and life goes on.
The bible for all its faults and merits is no adequete subsitute for experience. Its why I pay absolutely no attention to posters like Daughter, or Niles, or Overlord. They really don't know a friggin thing. Clueless little kids playing a grown up game.
Come back after you pull the Dallas Cowboy's Choo Choo train little girly then someone might give a shit. Use the index section of the bible to wipe the jizz off your face, the rest of it might have something you need should you actually care to read the damn thing.
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On 2005-10-01 04:18:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Overall, you get what you give. TREAT OTHERS THE WAY YOU WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED. When these teens showed consistent respect of authority then they resceived the same respect back. It's simple really. Also another value and moral I learned at the military bases and ABR!!
Daugther, military 'structure' is meant for the military; to keep people under control so you can fight with your group against another group, to the death if need be, so that the higher ups can make sure everything goes as they plan and as they say. Its also meant to keep them functioning (and obedient) if they ever go under a psychological regression while in combat... and hey, war is hell and shit happens.
But guess what? The military is the military, its not THE WORLD, its not the way it is or should be outside of it. Neither necessity nor improvement over other ways of living have been demonstrated to me. To YOU, its all you know.
Oh and another thing, why is "authority" intrinsically deserving of "respect"? How do you define either of them? Authority is not intrinsically anything but a power structure - authority thats incompetent, corrupt, malicious, etc is not deserving of respect, now is it?
Furthermore, how do you show 'respect for authority' in your worldview? Obedience and submission?
Oh, and BTW, rights, civility, and respect for someone as a human being isn't 'respect' for authority. A LOT of authority figures in my life have been apathetic, incompetent, or self-absorbed. Im not respecting that for one second, and Id disagree if you think someone whose a 'teen' should by default.
Oh and to conclude... people with degrees who crunched the numbers found that bootcamps dont work. No positive change on recidivism! Seems breaking people and/or indoctrinating them into the way you and your parents live... or to put it more concisely proselytizing someone to be like you isnt 'therapy' and this 'respect' for rank and hierarchy thats drilled into your psyche doesnt matter to anyone outside of your little world.
Individualism and holding people accountable, including those with rank and authority is one of MY values, Daugther.
Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)
"
Very well stated. All this stuff about respecting authority that these programs push keeps making me angry; and you described why beautifully. I try to teach my kid to think, not obey.
What ever happened to that old bumper sticker we used to frequently see? You know, the one that read, 'Question Authority.' Times have changed.
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ANON who is so fond of the Dallas Cowboys: and just how OLD AND MATURE do you think these Dallas Cowboys are??? Professional football players careers have the life expectancy of what? About 5-7 years average? Let's not discount young posters by comparing them to thick-headed football players when lots of them are "drugged out" anyway!
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Age is naturally associated with experience. But that doesn't mean I am uneducated or not entitled to my beliefs. I have researched this topic thoroughly (and contrary to all your beliefs, I am NOT doing this to "protect my daddy"!! I have never even discussed this topic with him before! So you can just throw that idea out the window!). I have finished high school-(which is more than most of those kids from these programs ever had) and I am in the process of receiving a pre-veterinary degree before moving on to graudate school. I am very smart and dedicated and according to some-strong-willed. I find those good qualities, personally. I stand up for what I believe in and could care less if you agree with me on them or not. Age has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. Most of the boys at ABR were younger than me and I have not messed my life up like they had by my age. Does this make me a better person? No, but this does show that I make better decisions in my life and care about my future.
And to the anonymous posters who wish to debate my spiritual life, all I can say is God knows my heart. I am also dedicated to my religion and to serving my God-I have read my Bible (not all of it, but I would like to meet someone who has read every word by age 19). And the Bible says all I have to go spend forever in Heaven with Him when I die is accept His Son as my Lord and Savior and believe He died on the cross and rose again the third day. And I have accepted Jesus as my Savior and as a result, my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life. This is the only way one is allowerd into Heaven and once your name is written in that book it can never be erased. You're only "damned to Hell" by not acepting his Son, anonymous. Now if you wanna get technical about admittance into Heaven-receiving the mark of the Beast is the only way you will not be allowed into the pearly gates. No where in the Bible does it say that one that hurts a child is denied access. (You know how I know all this, anonymous?? I HAVE READ MY BIBLE!!)I have never harmed a child anyways so your comments and opinions have no effect on me-I have even worked in Christian childcare for years throughout high school. And the kids loved me-I would even let them stay at my house so they wouldn't have to spend every Friday night at the bars with their drunk and dead-beat fathers.
And the Bible is perfect-pure-without fault. So, your comment that the "The bible with all its faults and merits is no adequate substitute for experience." is totally wrong. And reguarding the latter half of that comment, while the Bible does not substitute experience, it does, however, provide excellent advice and guidance for your life. It provides wonderful life lessons through parables and stories so that we may learn from others' experiences.
And I see absolutely no connection about haveing "no experience" and the Dallas Cowboys. I personally think they are a horrible football team anyways!! I'm from the East coast so I support my home teams.
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Daughter, I got to give you some credit for hanging in there ... wrong as you may be in your values and beliefs ... the fact is you are FREE to worship the God of your choice and express your thoughts and opinions of the private teen lock-up industry.
Too bad the kids who are forced into these "programs" are NOT FREE to express their thoughts and opinions for fear of being "disciplined" for not thinking and behaving like the program tells them to.
FREEDOM should not be for sale or trade, but this is America, where forcing kids to EARN their freedom is a way of life.
Kids are essentially second class citizens.
:smokin:
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Daughter, you say "you have not discussed this topic with Daddy?" Now why would a Christian girl like you LIE? Think you have been told before, NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY!
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Let's not forget that Nick was not "disciplined," this young boy was KILLED!
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Had you been reading my posts at all from the beginning you would see that my father and i have an estranged relationship and haven't talked for a few years. And the reason of our estrangement has nothing to do with ABR and frankly, no of your business. So don't accuse me of lying if you don't know all the facts when you're just too ignorant to find out the truth yourself. You're just so quick to jump down my throat about it when you're WRONG!! See my point again is confirmed that all you guys simply assume things without knowing the complete truth. First was OverLordd assuming I was a "son of an ex-worker" and now you. Get your facts straight.
Now about their "FREEDOM"- these kids deserved all the freedom this great country entitles them as being a citizen of this country up until they broke the law and had their freedom revoked as a punishment. It happens to men/women in prison and these kids were their as an alternative to prison so yeah, the punishment is going to resemble jail is some aspects. They essential did have more freedom than people in jail or prison, however. They went to school, football games, had cranivals/fairs and went on field trips, etc. I don't find they had it all that bad, but they also weren't there to have a vacation and have life be one big happy tea party either. They were there to be punished for the crimes they comitted. Their actions, choices, and life decisions resulted in the loss of some of their freedoms. Once they finished their punishment they received all their freedoms back. I feel no sympathy or pity for them-they were the ones that caused the loss of their freedoms and no one else-they were the ones to blame.
And please note that Nic was no murdered---had he been murdered, there would have been people prosecuted and charged and sentenced the crime, and no one has yet to be sentenced!! Remember that we as American citizens have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty--its another freedom we have (and it was also a freedom this kids were given when prosecuted). You advocate for these kids to have their freedoms after the court revoked them from them but won't give these innocent workers that very freedom that was given to the criminals. Seems a little self-contradictory, don't you think?? Also, I would just like to correct you, I don't think kids are second class citizens, just criminals.
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Hell, I don't care what this poor boy did. He was sent to Arizona Ranch to do "time" ... not end up in a body bag.
Maybe if you repeat this phrase three times and click your your army boot heels together, the ice that runs through your veins will melt.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ABUSE.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ABUSE.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ABUSE.
:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:
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The fact that no one was charged and found guilty does not mean that the staff at ABR weren't guilty of involuntary manslaughter, among other crimes. Happens all the time, and much too frequently in this industry.
Main Entry: involuntary manslaughter
Function: noun
: manslaughter resulting from the failure to perform a legal duty expressly required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act not constituting a felony, or from the commission of a lawful act in a negligent or improper manner
We know what ABR did to Nick.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =80#136022 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11783&forum=9&start=80#136022)
So Hun,
If YOU held responsibility for a kid who was collapsing, shitting himself, vomitting so frequently that jokes were made about it, who had also lost 30 pounds; what would YOU do?
What would your LORD do?
I'm guessin' that your response will be that they fulfilled their obligation by having him checked by the company doctor who cleared him for further abuse... that doctor who was on probabtion for illegal distribution of narcotics, self-prescribing and inadequate maintenance of medical charts.
If it were your OWN child, might you have been compelled to get a second opinion if the condition didn't improve in a day or two?
How in god's name does a kid fake those kind of symptoms for days on end? Truth- they don't. And punishment is not the appropriate cure for a lung infection. ABR clearly neglected Nick's medical needs which resulted in his death.
The fact that you defend what they did makes you an accomplice of sorts and the target of people's anger. Why are you here anyway defending the program, instead of the staff members who committed this crime? You weren't even a witness. Had you been, perhaps watching this child loose his body functions may have even prompted you to insist on proper care. We can't know for certain, but perhaps.
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Daughter, you need to spend all that PRAYING TIME to get things right with DADDY. You do know one of the BIG TEN is to "honor your father and mother," now don't you.
NOW: give me ten...and start praying...and get it right with Daddy, now Daughter!!!!
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This gal has "no sympathy or pity" for a dead child? Heartless little Bitch!
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Okay, first of all--you all say I am so cruel and heartless, but your words make you sound like you are the true cruel and heartless ones!! Who's the hypocrits now??
Secondly, concerning you asking me how I would handle the situtation if my own kid was in Nic's shoes.....simple-I don't have to worry about that because I would know how to handle my own kids and know how to discipline my own kids. So I am not worried about that question. And concerning your question of how the Lord would handle Nic--don't worry He most certainly will Judgement Day along with the rest of us. And if He feels any staff members were liable then He will condemn them, not us. SO let's let Him do his job and not worry about that.
And you are absolutely correct that one of the Ten Commandments is to honor thy father and mother. I am quite surprised you even know that!! Congratulations!! And I believe my relationship with my parents are none of your business, but if you are so nosey that you must butt into my personal life--well, too bad. I have said many times that this is none of your business. I HAVE honored my father and have even attempted to reconcile our relationship. The judge has even sentenced us to counseling which he has refused to consider. So our estrangement is not my fault. He was the one to make that decision, not me!!!! But do I still love him, yes-because he is my father. Do I still honor him-yes, because he is my father. I also appreciate the life lessons he taught me growing up (such as respect, honor, honesty, etc). he has also taught me things not to do in my life. But hey none of us are perfect in life. This website is not here to debate my relationship with my father or to argue our estrangment. You all need to learn how far is far enough. Stay out of my personal life and lets go back to debating this so called "abuse" scandal you all have so eloquently fabricated.
And no I don't have sympathy or pity for Nic because it was his own actions that landed him at ABR in the first place and there's nothing ABR could have done to prevent that-only him and his own mother. So why don't you blame then since they are the real cause here. Ms. Vega should be ashamed of the way she raised Nic-no child should have to be raised in the environment that he did. That is 100% Ms. Vega's fault, but Nic still made those choices. A poor upbringing is no excuse, he still knew right from wrong and if he didn't then maybe he belonged in a pych ward.
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On 2005-10-08 19:25:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
And you are absolutely correct that one of the Ten Commandments is to honor thy father and mother. I am quite surprised you even know that!! Congratulations!!.....lets go back to debating this so called "abuse" scandal you all have so eloquently fabricated."
Yes...lets go back to to debating the abuse that led to that child's death at the ranch which is NOT fabricated. His death IS reality.
And as long as we are quoting the 10 Commandments..."THOU SHALL NOT KILL"
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And they didn't kill Nic, either so it's all good!! Even if it was manslaughter--that's still not murder! Anyways, like I said that's God's job to judge them, not ours since the government already found them innocent!!
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They were NOT found innocent unless the child's abuser's were acquitted in a court of law. And clearly no trial occurred, so they were not deemed innocent by a jury. Just because charges weren't brought doesn't mean it didn't happen. Nor does the lack of charges mean innocence...it means lack of ADMISSIBLE evidence or lack of AVAILABLE witnesses, nothing more!!!
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Ok, well its been a while, and daughter has posted a few times so, its going to take a moment while I rebuke daughter.
To begin with.
contrary to all your beliefs, I am NOT doing this to "protect my daddy"!!
Well daughter in all honesty you really do seem to be doing this and defending this in order to defend your daddy. While maybe not your father, atleast you are defending the ideals that your family is based off of, and maybe your family name. No one likes to have a murderer in the family. Of course I wouldent want to be in a family that was based off of some of the ideals you espouse, because I have not heard a single thing about love from you. Also maybe you seek a way to repair your broken relationship and defending your daddy is a way to come back to his arms.
First was OverLordd assuming I was a "son of an ex-worker"
You wanna know why I assumed that? I assumed you were a son, because if I had a daughter I would not want her to know such places existed let alone let her near one, or let her know I worked at one. I would be ashamed the momment I came in for show and tell and told the boys and girls in class what I did for a living.
these kids deserved all the freedom this great country entitles them as being a citizen of this country up until they broke the law and had their freedom revoked as a punishment.
Does this include the right to a trial by a jury of peers? Well? Are you picking and chosing here daughter?
And the Bible says all I have to go spend forever in Heaven with Him when I die is accept His Son as my Lord and Savior and believe He died on the cross and rose again the third day. And I have accepted Jesus as my Savior and as a result, my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life. This is the only way one is allowerd into Heaven and once your name is written in that book it can never be erased. You're only "damned to Hell" by not acepting his Son, anonymous. Now if you wanna get technical about admittance into Heaven-receiving the mark of the Beast is the only way you will not be allowed into the pearly gates. No where in the Bible does it say that one that hurts a child is denied access.
This is where you are wrong on a few things daughter. Belife is important, very important, but James shows us that our actions need to go along with our belife. He shows us that if we truely believe our actions will coninside with what comes out of our mouths. As much as I would love to say a pauline "Saved by grace." James says, "Faith with out works is dead." So, you show me your works, you know like holyness and justice for the murdered children, and care and consern about their well being, as well as a general kindess towards them. And I will see about not trying to get you kicked out of heaven. You have yet to show the Christian ideals of love to us yet. Also one can be rejected from heaven for commiting the unforgiveable sin, which is blasphmey against the Holy Spirit. I believe in your actions of refusing to ignolege the Holy Spirit and his mercy and love to all, and not just people besides the kids, you have indeed commited blasphemy and if I were in charge you would not be in heaven. Moving on.
And please note that Nic was no murdered---had he been murdered, there would have been people prosecuted and charged and sentenced the crime, and no one has yet to be sentenced!! Remember that we as American citizens have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty--its another freedom we have (and it was also a freedom this kids were given when prosecuted). You advocate for these kids to have their freedoms after the court revoked them from them but won't give these innocent workers that very freedom that was given to the criminals. Seems a little self-contradictory, don't you think?? Also, I would just like to correct you, I don't think kids are second class citizens, just criminals.
You discusting peice of meat, your showing your self to be less of a human being every time you open your mouth. Your double standards make me want to vomit. You say that people are innocent to proven guilty and that they have rights so we should not say that these people were murdered, but then you move on and say the kids were given the same rights. I chalenege you to dig up the court tanscripts and show us. Give a example of how they were treated, show us the trial by jury, show us the american law prossess that massively shafts kids all over the country for years and years. These kids were screwed over and you know it.
And if He feels any staff members were liable then He will condemn them, not us. SO let's let Him do his job and not worry about that.
I point out another example of a double standard here. She so enjoys chasing down criminal kids, she so loves "fixing" or "helping" or "correcting" these children, why does she not worry about justice for any wrong doings toward them. "Let God sort it out?" Ok, fine, lets let all the kids out of the child prisions and let "God sort them out." And lets let the adult prisioners out of jail and let "God sort them out." You are a sad human being daughter, your one sided justice makes me want to vomit.
The judge has even sentenced us to counseling which he has refused to consider.
So your father is breaking the law? Maybe we should send him away!
And they didn't kill Nic, either so it's all good!! Even if it was manslaughter--that's still not murder! Anyways, like I said that's God's job to judge them, not ours since the government already found them innocent!!
No one was found innocent daughter, there was no trial, so no one is innocent or guilty. A person is dead you filthy beast, some one has been murdered. Manslaughter is only a diffrent class of murder.
Now to my own comments.
I would like to comment on the heartlessness of daughter. As she speaks I continue to see the example of her hate for these children, and even her hate for her fellow man. I believe that if she found nic and could of helped him she would not of helped him. She constently says that she believes he got what he diserved. I firmly believe that you have commited murder in your heart daughter. I firmly believe you are not a christian, and you never will be a christian untill you get this hate out of your heart. I say I hate people in the industry, but I believe they still can be forgiven. I have friends that have worked or even still work for the industry in some fashion. I have forgiven these people, so what I have is not true hate. You have true hate daughter, you would never forgive a youth, you would never help them, you are a beast, blind and simple. We all know that beasts do not have souls. Need I follow the topic to its theological conclusion, I believe you can follow it.
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Nonconformist--these men were never charged because the state decided these men weren't at fault. Had the state investigators decided the staff was responsible, then a trial most certainly would have taken place.
Overlordd-- yes, it sure has been awhile. Honestly, I thought you had given up; glad to see you're in for a fight--I missed all your typos and spelling errors (grab a dictionary, dude. You make such blatant and simple errors, it makes me question your intelligence quite honestly!!) Don't worry, mine will be equally as through here.
On the contrary, I could care less of my father's or family's reputation from our association with ABR. I am here because I believe the intentions of the program was completely honorable and positive. Only ridiculous message boards and biased articles have ruined these children's second chance. And correction--I have no murderer in my family. As I have stated before, my father quit ABR before Nic's death even occurred. Don't create yourself a slippery slope here. Just because he worked there in the past, don't assume (but then again, that's all you all ever do. That's what happens when you make comments without knowing the facts, in case you didn't know.) he wasn't in any way apart of this situtation. You don't want to be apart of my family because we enstill values and morals and that's wrong in your eyes. I'm sorry to hear this and I'm sorry your have no ethics. To imagine you are also serving our country?? This quite honestly frightens me. Maybe those Iraqis are just like these boys and maybe all they need is a little therapy and some pills, right?? You haven't heard a single thing of love from me? How about when I said I minister to under-priviledged children in efforts to share the good news of Christ with them and teach them to make positive life choices? I think you are just hearing what you want to hear, and that's fine, but this makes you biased. As you all are. And again, I am not defending my father in any way here. I believe I have stuck to defending ABR as a program here and have done a good job at leaving him out for the most part. I have left my relationship's status with father in his hands. I have tried and it is up to him now to choose whether he wishes to be apart of my life now. This message board is in no way an attempt to reconcile with him. He has no idea it even exists. But think what you want to believe (that's how it's accurately spelt by the way!) in your delusional little fantasy land you have created for yourself where no teenage boys can do wrong and where everyone can have a trial by jury.
You see you would be ashamed to share with your daughter and her class about such programs if you were a worker because you wouldn't raise your children with any morals or values, such as respect or honor or trustworthiness or confidence. OverLordd, you say you assumed that I was a son because you wouldn't want your daughter to know such programs existed. Correct?? So are you saying then it would acceptable for your son to know about such "hatred" existed?? Now who is full of double standards??
And I believe I have beaten this topic a little too much, but I will repeat myself once again just because I know you only hear what you want to hear and maybe by saying it once again you'll fnally choose to listen. Granting everyone a trial by jury is completely impractical. It costs too much and would severely back up our justice system to where a pettey crime would take months (perhaps years) to reach a judge. Practicality is extremely important in our justice system and your idea simply wouldn't work.
And concerning you asking for examples of my good works--frankly that is none of your concern. God knows my heart and He knows the level of my spirituality and He is the one that will ultimately allow me into the kingdom of Heaven. But as I have said, I minister to underpriviledged children, I attend church, I study my Bible, I pray and I tell others about Him. The only way I think ABR could have improved is if they had incorporated the good news of Jesus Christ in their program. But I am glad to say that several staff members from ABR have gone on to create their own programs which do just that. And I'm sure you're all glad to hear that these "abusive" staff members are still reaching these troubled teens. You know why? Because they care. I very much disagree with you OverLordd on your opinion that I can be denied eternity in Heaven because I support a program which tried to turn around lost individuals. I have not been blasphemous to God or Christianity at all here. I do believe that we are to love one another but we are also supposed to point out to others when they have done wrong and help guide them to the correct path. But ya know what? And the Bible says not to associate with unblievers as friends, and criminals are 99% of the time unbelievers-just like you said their actions don't defend the spirituality if they are. God definitely loves all, even sinners, but that doesn't mean we all get to experience the rewards and benefits of being born-again. The ones who choose not accept Him will face the punishment in Hell for all of eternity. And you know what, criminals will also have to face some punishment here on earth also. And I am totally glad you will not be in charge of who's entered into Heaven-you would probably allow these "poor, innocent, lost souls who didn't know better" and not force them to face any sort of punishment. I am grateful we have a God who not only grants us rewards, but also punishments. We all could learn this from him.
I am showing such hatred and lack of love, but you are calling me a "discusting peice of meat"!! Okay, first of all, it's spelt: disgusing piece of meat! And secondly, I am the cruel one, yet I do my very hardest from name calling or attacking your personal lives and religious beliefs. Yet this is all you do. OverLordd, at least you have a little arguement to throw back at me but you do it just as much as everyone else. You sit here and name call and attack people, yet I am the mean and cruel one here and I am the one to be denied into Heaven. You also say I am full of double standards, yet you all are the actual ones doing it. I can't call these teens criminals when most have done crimes throughout their entire lives and can be deemed "career criminals" but you can sit here and call another brother and sister in Christ a "disgusting piece of meat"?? Get real and open up your eyes. Maybe you should practice what you preach a little.
And these criminals weren't screwed over and I know that. They weren't just arrested off the streets and thrown in jail. They went before a judge to present their case, they were given an attorney if they could not afford one themselves and yes, some even were in court before a jury to plead their case. So go ahead and play your little violin for these boys and think they were screwed over. And in fact, I urge you to type up a bill, OverLordd, stating that all court cases regarding criminal cases or involving a crimes deserves a trial jury. Present that to your Congressman and allow him to present it to Congress (that is if you receive all the signatures required) and see how many votes it receives in each branch. I can guarentee it wouldn't pass. Impractical, simple as that. While it may seen like the fairest approach-it is simply impractical. SO please, by all means begin typing and when your bill (please name it the OverLordd bill, as it seems most appropriate) is presented in Congress, please inform me so that I may contact my Congressman and ask to be allowed to speak against such bill. Are you typing yet?? Why not, afraid of its failure and rejection?
I gain believe that we all will face a SEPARATE judgment one day from God. It is up to our federal, state, and local government to punish its citizens here on Earth while God will be in charge of handling his children on Judgment Day. If the government finds not to press charges or finds somenone innocent then all we can do is leave it up to God.
And my father didn't break the law concerning our relationship--the judge had suggested court appointed counseling for the both of us and my father declined the option. It wasn't mandatory and the judge choose not to force him to go so you know what?? That's fine with me, I know he will face the day when he will have to pay for that decision.
Oh and by the way, if manslaughter was truely considered murder then it would be called murder. There are different degrees of such a crime. If it was considered murder then why isn't it "Fourht-degree murder-for example"?? So you are trying to explain to me that when one is charged with manslaughter when a person dies in a car accident that they were involved in that they had every intent of murdering them?? I beg to differ.
And when have I shown hatred for my fellow man?? I show the need for punishment for one's actions here is all. And correction--I have never said "Nic got what he deserved". Again, you are creating yourself a slippery slope here. (If you don't know what that means, look it up-and learn to spell those common mispelled words of yours while you're at it.) I have only said it was Nic's choices that landed him at ABR along with his mother's failure to correctly raise her son.
And about deciding my spiritual condition--you might want to be careful. You are showing some traits of an unbeliever here as well. It is not your place to judge me and it is not your place to say I am not a Chrisitian-that is between me and God. Just because I believe in punishment for actions and fight for a case that I believe was not in fact murder doesn't make me an unbeliever. I am glad I am not a modern liberal as yourself and believe in medications or therapy as alternatives. Different beliefs such such petty topics doesn't mean I haven't accepted Christ. I also agree with you that everyone can be forgiven, including criminals. And I believe they can turn their lives around and make the right choices but the key thing is that they must ASK to be forgiven first. And in fact, I would definitely forgive such youth but once they are forgiven they must attempt to make the right choices and do what is right. That doesn't mean they will be perfect, but that means they are forgiven for their past mistakes and are given a second chance. I do love people, OverLordd, I just don't feel sympathy and pity for our criminal society. It was their choices and their actions. I do love people, but I also show what you may call "tough love" for those who make the wrong choices. They have lost their entitled trust and must earn that trust which they have lost back. Simple as that. But just because I believe differently as you do, doesn't mean I am damned to Hell as you may wish. Who has made you God and made you perfect to think that you are the only one entitled to be correct and whoever thinks differently than you is wrong?? [ This Message was edited by: DAUGHTER on 2005-10-09 00:53 ][ This Message was edited by: DAUGHTER on 2005-10-09 00:56 ]
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On 2005-10-09 00:53:00, DAUGHTER wrote:
I am here because I believe the intentions of the program was completely honorable and positive."
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions..."
Seriously, Daughter, I don't know how you reconcile your faith in God with the utter cruelty and inhumanity that you espouse.
You might as well adopt this slogan for yourself: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."
It balances well with the philosophy of places like ABR: "When you got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."
You ought to read some of the comments you wrote - not very "Christian" at all...
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You are right, DAUGHTER, God does know your heart...and it is a black, evil one!
You yak, yak, yak for pages, and say NOTHING.
Nick was KILLED, and none of your ravings can change that. STFU!!!!