Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: katfish on October 21, 2005, 04:48:00 PM
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I'm not sure if I linked this here yet, but I thought some of you might find this helpful in terms of keeping tack of updates, legislation, 'A Start' activities...
kat
http://groups.myspace.com/EndInstitutio ... ChildAbuse (http://groups.myspace.com/EndInstitutionalizedChildAbuse)
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Main 'A Start' page- FYI: Alliance for the Safe and Therapeutic Application of Residential Treatment...
http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm (http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm)
I like the FACT SHEET especially!
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Why is there no mention in the warning signs of LGA style involvement? Or, for that matter, TOUGHLOVE? What, if anything, have they had to say about Karen Lile's sworn testimony about the Discovery Seminar? http://www.nospank.net/lile.htm (http://www.nospank.net/lile.htm)
Are these folks unaware of the origins of the Program model? That would be hard to swallow. Are they just not concerned about it?
How about the industry history going back more than just the last 15 years? Are they unaware of DFAF? Roloff? Hyde? Or just not concerned about them?
I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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On 2005-10-23 11:05:00, Antigen wrote:
"Why is there no mention in the warning signs of LGA style involvement? Or, for that matter, TOUGHLOVE? What, if anything, have they had to say about Karen Lile's sworn testimony about the Discovery Seminar? http://www.nospank.net/lile.htm (http://www.nospank.net/lile.htm)
Are these folks unaware of the origins of the Program model? That would be hard to swallow. Are they just not concerned about it?
How about the industry history going back more than just the last 15 years? Are they unaware of DFAF? Roloff? Hyde? Or just not concerned about them?
I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)"
Thank you! I'm glad to see someone asking these questions b/c honestly, IMO you hit the nail squarely on it's head.
Bottom line is history will repeat itself if groups like A Start and Kat's fail to emphasize the origin of the problem (the anti-drug-anti-youth movement of the 70's) for it is here that today's teen helpers and their brand of one-size-fits-all programs were spawned.
Second, if society doesn't change the way it views youth and stop criminalizing and medicalizing adolescence, nothing will change,in fact, I predict if anything, there will be more REGULATED RTC's full of children forced into them because of mandatory mental health screening procedures evicting them from their home, school and community.
Don't believe me? Already there are millions of kids being labled "deficient" and being force-fed drugs by their parents and teachers. Generation RX, the great white hope for the future? I don't think so. More like the biggest failure in American history.
:smokin:
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On 2005-10-23 17:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2005-10-23 11:05:00, Antigen wrote:
"Why is there no mention in the warning signs of LGA style involvement? Or, for that matter, TOUGHLOVE? What, if anything, have they had to say about Karen Lile's sworn testimony about the Discovery Seminar? http://www.nospank.net/lile.htm (http://www.nospank.net/lile.htm)
Are these folks unaware of the origins of the Program model? That would be hard to swallow. Are they just not concerned about it?
How about the industry history going back more than just the last 15 years? Are they unaware of DFAF? Roloff? Hyde? Or just not concerned about them?
I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)"
Thank you! I'm glad to see someone asking these questions b/c honestly, IMO you hit the nail squarely on it's head.
Bottom line is history will repeat itself if groups like A Start and Kat's fail to emphasize the origin of the problem (the anti-drug-anti-youth movement of the 70's) for it is here that today's teen helpers and their brand of one-size-fits-all programs were spawned.
Second, if society doesn't change the way it views youth and stop criminalizing and medicalizing adolescence, nothing will change,in fact, I predict if anything, there will be more REGULATED RTC's full of children forced into them because of mandatory mental health screening procedures evicting them from their home, school and community.
Don't believe me? Already there are millions of kids being labled "deficient" and being force-fed drugs by their parents and teachers. Generation RX, the great white hope for the future? I don't think so. More like the biggest failure in American history.
:smokin:
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Sorry, I didn't remember to log in.
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I agree, I think the full scope of the problem and it's history needs to be addressed, point well taken.[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-10-23 22:33 ]
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Antigen, could you give me a summary of what Karen's testimony say if you have a moment, as I can only suppose you have read the testimony and I'm swamped with work at the moment so I will not get a chance to look it over until later on this week.
LGA?
thanks- kat[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-10-23 22:32 ]
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Kat, I just sent it to you in an email.
Kit
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Here's my take on the situation.
There's room for us all. The kids need us all.
There are many of you, like Ginger, who were in Straight and who know the history of the industry well. Many who attended programs more recently, like since the 90's, don't know what you know. "Newbies" are trying to get up to speed.
I believe that one of the most important things that needs to happen is that the word needs to get out to the public, to the mental health industry, to the legal industry, and especially to parents, that these programs exist and what goes on and has gone on.
People can only take in and process so much information so we have to find a way to give them the information in a very concise way. It really doesn't take too much, actually.
Over the past year or so I have spread the word about the industry in my community. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who I have spoken to had no idea this was happening. That's frightening. It proves to me that what we have done so far has not been enough and that we have a long way to go. The general public needs to know!
I think that what Alison Pinto & the other mental health professionals, Bazelon, and the others are doing is excellent. I think anything that will expose the industry is a great start. I believe that as A START continues their work more and more mental health professionals will be informed, more legal professionals, and that is a very, very good start.
As you are all aware, judges court-appoint kids to these programs and therapists recommend them to parents. I think most of them have no idea what is truly going on and they need to be informed. I don't think they realize the fate of the child. I do know that a judge once court ordered a child to be sent to Tranquility Bay. Once the judge was made aware of abuse allegations, he ordered the child be returned to this country.
Let's face it. In order for this to be exposed we need help. We should welcome those who have a passion for helping rather than pick them apart, piece by piece. They are getting involved because they see the injustice of what is going on. And we need to be understanding that people getting on board to help are not going to know the full history of this industry. They were not in a program, they did not attend Straight in the 70's. But that doesn't mean they are not going to be effective. Let's give them a chance.
I have a suggestion. Those of you who know the history, how about putting together a timeline for those who are just coming on board. I am aware of how complex this is but in order to help on this level it needs to be broken down in a manner that will be easy to read and understand. It's just an idea.
I also understand where many of you are coming from and your fear of our government getting involved. Our government, so far, has done little to help the kids. Again, some of you know more of the history.
But I think it's important to be open-minded and to see what others are trying to do and why. Right now we have virtually no regulations, right now there are not many laws to protect the kids. Right now they can get away with abusing kids inside and outside of this country. Right now it's nearly impossible to help kids in other countries.
I think that, whether we like it or not, we need the help of the government. We need more people like Congressman Miller who are willing to work hard to pass a bill that would help protect the kids. There are some very positive things in his proposed bill that would at least be a start to some protection for the kids. Right now we have none to speak of.
Hopefully we can all find a way to work together. I really think it's the only way that we will see any positive change. ::rocker::
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Critical mass has been building for the past 3 decades, what you are seeing now has taken that long to reach the mainstream and we are still a long way from resolving the problem.
In order for real and meaningful change to occur, we must start at the beginning and peel back the layers.
All this attention on one program (WWASPS) has helped broaden awareness but at the same time actually worked to BOOST the enrollment numbers of one of the most controversial organizations.
Doesn't anyone care to know HOW and WHY that is even possible?
Because parents aren't "getting it"?
WRONG! Parents do get it and the fact is, for the most part, they like what they see.
TOUGHLOVE SELLS.
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You're right about that ... tough love sells. Parents are quick to want to put their kids through "tough love" when they have problems. What about "tough lovin'" the parents for a change. How about they get some tough love for themselves to see where they went wrong and why their kid is acting out, or whatever else may be going wrong?
Something we need to remember and that we need to be sure gets addressed. Parents have the given right to do whatever they want to their children when it comes to this. Yet they don't have the right to beat their child, to abuse their child sexually or physically - but they do have the right to hire a third-person to do it for them. So off they send them, kicking and screaming most of the time as they're abducted in the middle of the night from their beds, to a place where their rights are completely stripped from them. Compeletely! They have no right to anything, it's clear.
So how do they get away with doing this? It's their right. Again, they don't personally have the right to abuse their child, but they do have the right to hire someone else to do it. For think about it. Hiring someone to kidnap your child, especially in the middle of the night, is traumatic to say the least. This is something that could stay with the child their entire life, causing serious trust issues, and so on.
I think I'll start a new topic about this, it's important.
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On 2005-10-24 11:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
So how do they get away with doing this? It's their right. Again, they don't personally have the right to abuse their child, but they do have the right to hire someone else to do it. For think about it. Hiring someone to kidnap your child, especially in the middle of the night, is traumatic to say the least. This is something that could stay with the child their entire life, causing serious trust issues, and so on.
I think I'll start a new topic about this, it's important.
I don't believe that they DO have the legal right to outsource any sort of treatment that's illegal to do themselves. I think it's more a matter of credibility problems and ignorance on the part of the kids.
First, the kids don't know it's false imprisonment to lock them in w/o due process or that constant nagging, badgering, invasion of privacy and all the rest constitute harassment and assault. They don't know, cause they haven't been hanging out w/ lawyers or, likely, even reading newspapers, the right words to use to describe what happened to them.
Even when they do know the right language to use, people assume they must be REALLY bad kids to have caused their parents to take such drastic measures. Frankly, to this day, most people just don't believe us/them. It's simply easier and more comfortable to write it off as adolescant over-dramatization.
Funny story about that. When I was getting to know my husband, told him a bit about my weird childhood and family and such. I told him how my mom was convinced that I was a junkie and having been confined to this really warped program for years and all that. He was very supportive; an unusually good listener by any standard, but especially for an 18yo boy. But really, he took it all w/ a grain of salt. You know, teenaged girls and their mothers, they tend to exagerate, right?
So I gues within our first year together, my oldest brother comes for a visit. We're having the usual sort of catching up w/ family news kind of conversation, as he'd just come from Thanksgiving accross the state.
"How is everyone?"
"Well, Lo is doing such and such, I'm here, Jim's getting married again, Tom's still a postman, Kathi's doing home health... oh, and you're still a junkie, of course. . ."
I think he started to get an inkling of how it is right about then. And, mind you, he was then and remains my lover, partner and closest confidant. He was extremely biased, but STILL it's just hard for people to accept that parents can be this cruel, never mind that there's a secret underground network of businesses set up to serve them.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. We'll get there, though.
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
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Anon, who posted...
On 2005-10-24 00:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
Let's face it. In order for this to be exposed we need help. We should welcome those who have a passion for helping rather than pick them apart, piece by piece. They are getting involved because they see the injustice of what is going on. And we need to be understanding that people getting on board to help are not going to know the full history of this industry. They were not in a program, they did not attend Straight in the 70's. But that doesn't mean they are not going to be effective. Let's give them a chance
Yes, indeed, I absolutely agree that it's a good, good thing to have some well credentialed, well respected people w/ good contacts focusing attention on this issue. However, there's a whole, broad and fertile country between unquestioning support and picking them to bits.
I assume their intentions are entirely good, but I also assume they have as many, as large and as opaque blind spots as any other group of human beings.
Namely, how in the WORLD can anyone affiliated with FLORIDA CFS, SFU, and mental health study, law and policy organizations claim ignorance of Straight, Inc, LIFE, Growing Together and SAFE, Orlando. It's not asif this were some arcane story that lived and died a generation ago. As recently as 15 years ago, GT was making headlines and generating litigation. And SAFE was all over the Orlando newspapers and tv news just a couple of years ago.
Sorry, I don't buy that. It just doesn't add up. So then... why are they pretending not to know about this? Why do they not want to discuss it?
Well, I can't force it out of them. But the silence is deafening.
Next question (not picking or poking, just trying to find out what's going on here) Can anyone please explain to me to which community based programs the ASTART team wants to funnel federal funding? All I can find online is that they say they have science to back the claim that these vaguely referenced programs are safer and more effective than the Synanon based TOUGHLOVE troubled parent industry. Frankly, that's not saying much. Almost anything would be.
Finally, and I think this is the biggest, most dearly defended blind spot among educators and psyche professionals and clinical staff. Sanho Tree once quipped that screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior. The same can be said for highschool kids. Do the psyche professionals have an understanding, or at least an open mind to the idea, that most people really don't need any formal intervention at all?
That's not as mean spirited as some people might take it. The physical medical profession has slowly but surely gotten it's ears pinned back on that point over recent years. When I started having babies over 20 years ago, I was scolded by very good and compassionate pediatricians for things like refusal to treat low grade fever w/ aspirin, then for using aspirin instead of ibuprophen, then acetaminiphin... then the notice appeared in their waiting room informing us that it really is best to leave a low grade fever alone and only treat fevers over 101 degrees. Yeah, no shit! How about an apology for the dressing down? Silence. But ok, they've seen the error of their ways. I value action over contrition.
I'm not asking any of these questions rhetorically. I'm asking w/ the high hope of getting decent answers and even a little hope of getting unexpectedly brilliant and reassuring answers.
Will someone please try and get statements out of the team that address these concerns? Cause, so far, I've gotten exactly the same response as when I asked Sue Scheff which programs she refers to and how, exactly, she goes about ensuring their safety and efficacy. Well, no, to be fair, I'm only getting the silent treatment, not an all out attack w/ lawyers and everything. That's encouraging. But still, I think these are valid concerns and, if they want my support, I'd like to have some kind of solid response, please.
It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2005-10-23 22:32:00, katfish wrote:
"Antigen, could you give me a summary of what Karen's testimony say if you have a moment, as I can only suppose you have read the testimony and I'm swamped with work at the moment so I will not get a chance to look it over until later on this week.
LGA?
thanks- kat[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-10-23 22:32 ]"
Kat, just read that essay. It's not that long. And it'll explain some of the more important aspects of LGA (Large Group Awareness training)
screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Sanho Tree
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Thanks, Barb. You're often a lot more level headed than I am. It's nice to get a little affirmation that I'm not entirely off the wall here.
Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself - that is my doctrine.
--Thomas Paine
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Hey, Ginger, I don't think you're off the wall. I think you have legitimate questions and concerns. I will see what I can do to get the answers for you.
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Thank ya', darlin'. I knew you were a good egg! I don't care what they say about you. LOL
It's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
RTP2003
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Ok, I made a couple of edits. If you've sent out my questions to anyone, could you please also give them the url to the updated version.
Thanks :exclaim: The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
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QUOTE: Thank ya', darlin'. I knew you were a good egg! I don't care what they say about you. LOL /////
Thanks, Ginger. I'm glad you feel that way. I'm hoping we can chat one of these days. LOL
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Yap I've sent out the questions. Where do I find the updated version (feeling a little stupid right now, it's probably under my nose)? Can you send it to me here again? Thanks.
Here's are the questions I asked:
1. Does Alison and the rest of the A START group know about Straight, Inc., Life, Growing Together, and SAFE, Orlando?
2. Which community based programs does ASTART want to funnel federal funding to?
3. What is the science they have to back the claim that these programs are safer and more effective than the Synanon based tough love troubled parent industry?
4. Do they understand or have an open mind to the fact that most people don't need any formal intervention at all and that many of the problems could be resolved at home with love and guidance?
I couldn't agree more with number 4. From all the kids I've talked to, and some parents too, things could have easily been resolved at home in many instances. And more often than not, it does seem to be linked to parenting style.
Anyway, let me know if the questions above are OK and what you'd like me to add. Thanks.
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("What about "tough lovin'" the parents for a change. How about they get some tough love for themselves to see where they went wrong and why their kid is acting out, or whatever else may be going wrong?")
I support this statement 100%....
::cheers::
I don't think my parents would have sent me away if they did some "tough love" on themselves.
MMS was to fix me and in turn fix all the problems at home...
Yet when I went home to the same enviorment I left...not to much changed.
I know not everyone thinks so, but it does start with the parents and they need to step back and think twice about what they are doing.
Maybe we as children or even young adults...say 16, should be able to hire escorts to come and take them away....esp when we start to see boarding school brochures on the dining room table. :rofl:
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Funny, B. I like the part about the brochures on the table!! :lol:
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On 2005-10-24 20:39:00, BarnardlyB wrote:
I know not everyone thinks so, but it does start with the parents
I'm not sure that many would disagree on this point- I know that I certainly agree!!!!! Good point, B!!!! Someone once told me it's like taking a fish out of a dirty bowl and then putting them back into that dirty bowl...I thought that an applicable metaphor in this instance...[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2005-10-24 23:59 ]
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Maybe we as children or even young adults...say 16, should be able to hire escorts to come and take them away....esp when we start to see boarding school brochures on the dining room table. :rofl: "
Thats great :rofl:
B when were you at mms?
peace out ya'lls!
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I was at MMS from 94-97 yes all three years......
I think at that time MMS was not only emotionally hard but esp Physically hard.