Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: FueLaw on September 20, 2005, 11:24:00 PM
-
Keep on posting. The more you post the more you expose yourself as a phoney and fraud. You are truely clueless.
-
On 2005-09-20 20:24:00, FueLaw wrote:
"Keep on posting. The more you post the more you expose yourself as a phoney and fraud. You are truely clueless. "
FueLaw - hee haw, hee haw :lol:
-
FueLaw,
Look in the mirror
:wstupid:
-
What's up with all these anonymous posters making condescending and rude remarks? Is it just one or two anonymice amongst us? Is it that they are still being loyal to the Seed, "protecting their anonymity" per the rules? Or are they merely spinelessly mean-spirited? Gee, I don't know. What do you think, FueLaw?
You go, FueLaw. For the record, though I never witnessed or experienced a physical beating in the Seed, I totally believe your account about John Underwood beating you up together with someone else. It sounds perfectly in character to me. And yes, every time he posts, he reveals his own seething sense of inadequacy, and even after all these years, it's a pleasure, isn't it?
-
I think that "THE TRUTH" really really hurts. I dont care about their annonymity but they should just pick a name to make the conversation easier on the board.
The truth is the Seed was a cult which used experimental methods that eventually failed. It was based on a bunch of lies and fallacies and over time the lies and fallacies were revealed. The proof is evident in the manner in which the Seed existed over their last 20 or so years. Even Underwood himself acknowledges getting run off when his loyalty was questioned.
For purposes of discussion go back to your intake interview and think about what was said to your parents in order to get them to enroll you in the program. Keep in mind that I am talking about May , 1973 when all this drug stuff, and the rehabilitation business was relatively new. Our parents were told that we were on a "highway to hell" or "the road to ruin". That even if we barely used drugs, we had the "druggie attitude" which they could correct.
Our parents were scared of drugs, socitey was scared and Barker & Co. played on these fears to the absolute hilt. Never underestimate the way fear could make a parent act or react. Put in context staff was telling our parents if you dont leave your kids with us he will wind up in prison or dead on the streets. In this context many scared parents may just enroll their kids in the program.
Our parents were told that the Seed had a 90% success rate and they would straighten us out. Keep in mind the person doing the intake interview had no training or skill in evaluating any kind of problems a kid might have. Some of them may have just completed their 10-10 phase of the program several months before being made a staff member. They also may have been just as pathetic as junkies turned senior staffers like Underwood and Libby. Were any parents ever told that the Seed had no professionals on staff and that the program had no long term or reliable data to support their claims of success?
Did Underwood or any staffers ever tell a parent that their kid wasn't that bad and really didn't need the program? Were any kids released from the program a week or so after admittance because the kid really wouldn't benefit from the program?
I would bet the success rate of the staffers doing the intake interviews was less than 50%. I was there over a year and staffers would disappear and never be heard from or spoken about again just the same as many of the kids.
The same analysis would be true of the people sent to the program by the court system. Frauds were prepetrated on the judges and other local public officials. Once these fruads came to light and someone flashed a spotlight on Barker/Underwood/Libby they ran like cowards. This is why the Dade, Pinellas and Cleveland facilities closed. Barker & company didnt want the lies and fraud exposed. A half a loaf is better than none at all.
Remember "Honesty was the first and most important rule" and it was violated as soon as you walked in the door. The lies and deceit continued up until the time you left the program.
(more on that later)
Any names or insults that these anon's hurl at me have no effect on me. It is less than 1/10th of 1% (one tenth of one percent) of the harm I suffered as a 14 year old. If we could survive the mental torture I'll last through a few name calling sessions.
Finally about the physical abuse. It took place. Not to the extent of 'Straight" and othe programs that followed but it did occur. The mental beatings were infinitely worse.
Underwood,please just stick around over the next few weeks, I along with others, will demonstrate by any reasonable standard that you were one of the most dispicable dishonest gutless human beings to ever trod the face of the earth. There is not doubt in my mind that you are evil to the core and fundamentally dishonest and I'll prove it.
-
I remember several 9 year old kids in group in St Pete for Druggie attitudes. I have vivid memories of these little kids standing up and "relating" in group.
It was a pathetic abusive display, to have these little children locked up in a smoking swearing stinking warehouse. I don't ever remember anyone being turned away during my stay. But hey, it could of happened.
Instead, I think the truly devoted thought and still think the seed was a good dose of medicine for all.
-
FueLaw, Marc...
You are speaking with some 'true believers' here, and no evidence or testimony will likely cause them to reconsider their position, because it is based on faith not reason...
You will only be seen as 'the enemy' and your own sanity and motives will be questioned.
I don't think that many of those who are 'true believers' are interested in a conversation, unless you agree with them. They will not take kindly to dissent.
And I do not believe their motivations are wholly wrong. After all, many people here can testify to their own success in beating drugs, and the failures of others. And many people were idealistic about the Seed and this clearly carries thru. However, if you question them it is evident that you will be put in the postion of being the enemy.
Don't let it happen. Speak your truth dispassionately. I urge John, Robin and others to do the same. Open you hearts and eyes and listen and learn, we all have a lot to contribute.
The Seed and it's variants come from a long history of revival groups in America that where lead or started by charismatic people, and were based on faith, and sought to convert others, and did not tolerate dissent...it goes back at least to the 1920s. Isn't that intersting to you? Dont; you think our experience with the Seed has positive things to say about faith and idealism, and equally negative things to say about comformity and fascism.
Keepin' it real,
Walter
-
right above your post fuelaw states:
"Underwood,please just stick around over the next few weeks, I along with others, will demonstrate by any reasonable standard that you were one of the most dispicable dishonest gutless human beings to ever trod the face of the earth. There is not doubt in my mind that you are evil to the core and fundamentally dishonest and I'll prove it."
again i must ask is this the adult mature dialogue that you refer to?
-
Taken in it's proper context the language and allegations are very mild. Torturing children is serious business. It is undisputed that John Underwood totured thousands of children. He is a disgrace to all decent people wherever they roam.
Like I said before he is a phoney and fraud, he has no balls all he could ever do was inject herion into his body and pick on little kids who could barely fight back.
-
fuelaw, again:
"It is undisputed that John Underwood totured thousands of children."
i don't know how to break this to you fue but it's disputed regularly right here but please do keep it up
comic relief helps all of us in troubled times
-
First, pick a name you gutless bastard. It makes it easier to address people on a board like this. Second, I am glad you are entertained because that makes it more likely you will come back to this website and get some information and education which you are clearly in need of. Thrid, define torture ? Fourth, define mental abuse?
Next, read GregFl's post under Underwood's most recent thread and tell me if you agree or not with the allegations and comments.
Does any dispute that these events or substaintially similar events ever took place?
-
On 2005-09-21 21:14:00, FueLaw wrote:
"First, pick a name you gutless bastard. It makes it easier to address people on a board like this. Second, I am glad you are entertained because that makes it more likely you will come back to this website and get some information and education which you are clearly in need of. Thrid, define torture ? Fourth, define mental abuse?
Next, read GregFl's post under Underwood's most recent thread and tell me if you agree or not with the allegations and comments.
Does any dispute that these events or substaintially similar events ever took place? "
TORTURE
NOUN
Extreme mental distress
Unbearable physical pain
Intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain
The act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean
The act of torturing someone
VERB
Torment emotionally or mentally
Subject to torture
MENTAL ABUSE
Cruel or inhumane treatment involving the mind or an intellectual process
be back later, off to do some reading.
-
The gutless bastard, eh?
The name reminds me for some reason of "Fat bastard" from the spy who shagged me.
Thanks for registering, and for lightening up the conversation as well.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
-
On 2005-09-21 22:57:00, GregFL wrote:
"The gutless bastard, eh?
The name reminds me for some reason of "Fat bastard" from the spy who shagged me.
Thanks for registering, and for lightening up the conversation as well.
:grin: :grin: :grin: "
No problem. I guess i just didn't have the guts not to. GB
-
Good one GB , at least you got a sense of humor. You also know how to use a dictionary. Your improving. Using your definitions would you say that mental abuse took place at the Seed ?
Note: post edited for content. Lets keep it civil please.
gregfl
-
Thank you Gregory :grin:
-
On 2005-09-22 03:12:00, FueLaw wrote:
"Good one GB , at least you got a sense of humor. You also know how to use a dictionary. Your improving. Using your definitions would you say that mental abuse took place at the Seed ?
Note: post edited for content. Lets keep it civil please.
gregfl
"
ABSOLUTELY!!!! Some of you guys were really rough on Staff.
-
Well, that clears it up for me. :grin:
I wish we could have given staff members a dose of their own medicine, but it just twern't so back then. And 30+ years later, the power stucture for some hasn't changed.
I've tried doing it and all I got was a referral to a rehab program. At least I guess that's what Charterhouse is; I'm not too up on the latest and best places to "dry out" and get straight.
Forever your black sheep....
-
I'm sorry Stripe, did you forget that staff members sat on the front row, went through the program just like you, and received plenty of the "medicine."
-
On 2005-09-27 19:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry Stripe, did you forget that staff members sat on the front row, went through the program just like you, and received plenty of the "medicine.""
And? That makes it right? Fuck, many child molesters were molested as kids. Using this flawed reasoning they were justified in their actions as well.
-
You miss the limited scope of the response Anon, but I suppose that's the practiced and accepted m.o. here...
-
On 2005-09-28 06:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You miss the limited scope of the response Anon, but I suppose that's the practiced and accepted m.o. here..."
I always figured him/her for a limited scope misser!
-
On 2005-09-27 19:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry Stripe, did you forget that staff members sat on the front row, went through the program just like you, and received plenty of the "medicine.""
Gee... yeah, I did. Ya know, for some reason wonderfulness of a staff member's presence on the front row just escaped me. I guess the glory of all it just did not make a very big impression on me. Or maybe I just don't care anymore. Or maybe it doesn't fucking matter where they sat - the fact is:
THEY EITHER QUICKLY FORGOT the "medicine" that was heaped on them or they got no real "medicine" at all. I doubt a real drug addicted street person (which is what most staff members were, right?) would care about the taste of "medicine" when the reward for taking it and going along with the program was total power, a crib, and three squares a day. And all ya gotta do is say this stuff ? Sounds like a real high calling to me. No pun intended.
Don't even try to recap how hard the work was or how long the hours were or how UNGRATEFUL all those little pukes in the warehouse were. Those guys and girls could have walked anytime. UNLESS - OHMYGOD, they were brainwashed or severaly "dain-bramaged" by the experience and believed they would die and/or their cushy little sex stereo-typed sex-segregated world would implode if they did leave.
Ya just can't have it both ways.
-
On 2005-09-21 20:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"fuelaw, again:
"It is undisputed that John Underwood totured thousands of children."
i don't know how to break this to you fue but it's disputed regularly right here but please do keep it up
comic relief helps all of us in troubled times"
Is it disputed with facts or is it disputed with self-serving commentary ? Unless I've missed something, and please correct me if I have, how come no other identified staff members have come forward in Underwood's defense?
Here's a cute one for you that kind of sums the defense so far: "I said it. God heard it. God repeated it. I heard it. I believe it. That settles it." :grin:
-
are you aware that any of these staff members are aware of this forum or that john has been attacked?
-
On 2005-09-28 17:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"are you aware that any of these staff members are aware of this forum or that john has been attacked? "
Or, maybe they ARE here, and don't take the attacks very seriously, figuring John is a big boy, and can take care of himself?
-
On 2005-09-28 17:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"are you aware that any of these staff members are aware of this forum or that john has been attacked? "
What ?
-
Or, maybe they ARE here, and don't take the attacks very seriously, figuring John is a big boy, and can take care of himself?
-
OOPS! Sorry, I didn't look at that very carefully :smile:
-
the questions was asked why dont the other staff members defend john. i asked simply who says they even know that this is going on? its all just speculation
-
Because he speaks for himself, as we all do. One of the more important things I learned at the Seed
Talk about yourself and talk about what's important...
-
On 2005-09-28 17:25:00, Stripe wrote:
"
On 2005-09-21 20:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"fuelaw, again:
"It is undisputed that John Underwood totured thousands of children."
i don't know how to break this to you fue but it's disputed regularly right here but please do keep it up
comic relief helps all of us in troubled times"
Is it disputed with facts or is it disputed with self-serving commentary ? Unless I've missed something, and please correct me if I have, how come no other identified staff members have come forward in Underwood's defense?
Here's a cute one for you that kind of sums the defense so far: "I said it. God heard it. God repeated it. I heard it. I believe it. That settles it." :grin:
"
Do you actually read the posts Stripe?
-
On 2005-09-28 17:17:00, Stripe wrote:
"
On 2005-09-27 19:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm sorry Stripe, did you forget that staff members sat on the front row, went through the program just like you, and received plenty of the "medicine.""
Gee... yeah, I did. Ya know, for some reason wonderfulness of a staff member's presence on the front row just escaped me. I guess the glory of all it just did not make a very big impression on me. Or maybe I just don't care anymore. Or maybe it doesn't fucking matter where they sat - the fact is:
THEY EITHER QUICKLY FORGOT the "medicine" that was heaped on them or they got no real "medicine" at all. I doubt a real drug addicted street person (which is what most staff members were, right?) would care about the taste of "medicine" when the reward for taking it and going along with the program was total power, a crib, and three squares a day. And all ya gotta do is say this stuff ? Sounds like a real high calling to me. No pun intended.
Don't even try to recap how hard the work was or how long the hours were or how UNGRATEFUL all those little pukes in the warehouse were. Those guys and girls could have walked anytime. UNLESS - OHMYGOD, they were brainwashed or severaly "dain-bramaged" by the experience and believed they would die and/or their cushy little sex stereo-typed sex-segregated world would implode if they did leave.
Ya just can't have it both ways.
"
Whose facts, Stripe, yours?
-
Jesus Christ on a Crutch, you guys!
Yes, being in group was torture for some people. And John and all the other staff and all the oldcomers and oldtimers who took part in guarding doors and chasing runners confined thousands of kids in group.
Who disputes either of those statements?
More importantly, WHY? Back it up w/ something other than an off the wall insult or pop another prozac and shut up.
Instead of giving money to fund colleges to promote learning, why don't they pass a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting anybody from learning anything? If it works as good as the Prohibition one did, why, in five years we would have the smartest race of people on earth.
--Will Rogers
-
On 2005-09-28 20:38:00, Antigen wrote:
"Jesus Christ on a Crutch, you guys!
You got me thinking. I wonder if the expression 'steak on a stick' would be considered blasphemous to a Hindu? ::bwahaha2:: ::burger::
-
Antigen,
I heard the Bono's are having an Auction. :rofl:
-
Ginger, Ginger, Ginger:
I, for one, dispute these statements. I, unlike you, was actually there.
We are never going to come anywhere close to agreement re The Seed. Further, with the overwhelming amount of posts here, I, (nor anyone else), can possibly, directly, respond to every irresponsible accusation.
Believing that deriding and scoffing at opinions that don?t fit into the closed minded architecture of the hate based mentality of the obsessive will somehow create a consensus that leads to the truth is fantasy, at best.
What do you know about the thousands that went through The Seed? NOTHING, absolutely nothing! You know about the experience of your family and maybe, at most, a few dozen others.
That?s it. And don?t give me The Seed-Straight comparison, it doesn?t work. You attended some open meetings, made some sandwiches, and resented, as a very young child, the attention you were being deprived of because your parents sought help for your sibs, and declare this makes you a Seed expert???
You cite learned bodies that have brought us such other credible undertakings as The Patriot Act, the war in Iraq, tax reform(lol), and dozens upon dozens of similar miscues in recent decades.
Too bad you don?t direct all this zealous energy toward something that might actually help. Actually, that brings to mind a question.
Why don?t you?
And for the record, of course there were people in The Seed that, (in my opinion), didn?t belong there, but these were a minority. Do you honestly believe we (staff) wanted these persons on the program ? Why? I can tell you it did nothing for us except making a very difficult job even harder.
And yes, The Seed was flawed, of course it was. Who or what isn?t?
My problem here isn?t the derision personally directed at me, ranging from dishonest to bizarre to psychotic, it?s the information presented and promoted as authoritative, yet has no basis in fact.
My problem here is the complete lack of respect and regard shown to anyone who dares say they were helped by The Seed
My problem here is that post after post complains about how awful The Seed experience was, but the absence of any statements regarding what these people did, (when they had the opportunity), to make it better, is what I see. Unless you believe whining, complaining and bitching actually works??? Which brings to mind another question.
Do you believe that whining, abasing, complaining, deriding, et al, is somehow cathartic? That this somehow furthers education, enlightenment? Helps people gain a more comforting, honest perspective?
As has been previously stated, what you got yourself here kid is a hate cult, nothing more.
Change it if you can and care.
P.S.
Please don't stop the sparring with Lauderdale. It is the most attractive and endearing thing you have going for you.
-
yeah, what he said!
-
John, in the words of Ronald Reagan..."there you go again".
You fail to acknolwedge the posts here that say they were helped by the seed that wen't unchallenged.
Again, you direct the post against someone instead of against an idea or a topic, complain you can't respond to the issues yet spend considerable bandwith deriding individuals. But I guess that is to be expected as it was the nature of the beast, wasn't it...to totally attack, deride, abuse and otherwise discredit any dissenter?
You are the disrespectfull one, coming to someone's website and forming a little posie to belittle the very person who provides you the space to share your story.
-
On 2005-09-29 07:05:00, Thom wrote:
"yeah, what he said!"
Gee what a surprise. Wipe you nose off, Thom..it appears to be obtaining a brown stain once again.
-
Change it if you can and care.
Define cult and compare and contrast it to this website.
What YOU got is the remnants of an exclusive cult pulsing thru your heart, and your only weapon is to attack, a dubious skill learned at a shithole called the seed.
Change that, if you can and care.
-
John U wrote:"And for the record, of course there were people in The Seed that, (in my opinion), didn?t belong there, but these were a minority."
Oh bull shite!!!!!
What percentage of people that attended the seed went in in 1973/74? Got any idea? I do...the vast majority of the entire Seed warehouse your kid experiment...
What percentage of them were under 18?
What percentage of them were addicted?
What percentage of them went on to abuse drugs?
You don't know, do you? Yet you deride someone else and make fallicious claims like Ginger only knows of a dozen or so people that went thru the seed.
We have been associating on the internet for going on 6 years. This is the second version of our online community, the first is archived. Many many former indoctrinees have posted here and other websites. Only a handfull have been staunchly pro seed, and almost to a person they post "come down on you" raps instead of addressing the issues.
And yes, the seed straight comparison does work, even if that goes against your grain. It was the same damn thing operated by a subset of seed fanatics.
Same shit different shithole.
-
"Same Shit different shithole"
Greg are you quoting Homer or Tennyson? :grin:
-
John, you wrote:
My problem here is that post after post complains about how awful The Seed experience was, but the absence of any statements regarding what these people did, (when they had the opportunity), to make it better, is what I see. Unless you believe whining, complaining and bitching actually works??? Which brings to mind another question.
Do you mean to tell me that all I had to do was raise my hand and say some thing like
I disagree with the policy that only allows me to use the bathroom once or twice a day?
That I could object to having to tell someone whether I was peeing or pooping?
That I could ask not be held in a smokefilled room?
Surely you jest. If that was an option and I could have had some say in how I was treated, why wasn't I told that it was an option? Why wasn't there a sign that said, if you don;t like it, just ask us tochange it.
Why were the rules held to such a high infallible status and enforced the way they were if all ittook to change them was a request. I don't think there was any democracy going down at the seed.
Is that the secret that separates the true believers from the rest of the population? That those who totally succomed to the reverse peer-pressure were in fact the sheep and the those who asked for different treatment got differnt or better treatment?
Your statement flies in the face of whole druggie-rehab control philosphy.
-
On 2005-09-29 06:42:00, John Underwood wrote:
as a very young child, the attention you were being deprived of because your parents sought help for your sibs, and declare this makes you a Seed expert???
:scared: :rofl:
Now you're sounding crazy! I resented the attention? Please tell me, how in the world do you arrive at that conclusion? I wasn't resentful at all. What I was was scared shitless. I saw the disturbing changes in my older siblings' personalities and that of their friends. I knew about the abductions, many--constant--split attempts, the snich phone trees etc. I was terrified daily for years of getting a little dose of the same kind of "attention".
I, for one, dispute these statements. I, unlike you, was actually there.
I'm not the only one saying so. Just use the handy search feature located in the menu on the left of the page. Search this forum for the word "torture" and see how many different people use the same descriptive terms. You might, if you had any authentic interest, also try words like "abuse" and "terror".
Who the hell are you to even question what these people experienced? It's not asif any of us, whether in group or in danger of being so, could have told you how we felt about it at the time w/o major reprecussions.
Tell me, do you believe that your feet cease to exist when you put your shoes on? You didn't want to know then and you don't want to know now. Doesn't make you right.
As far as the Straight connection, you're frankly delusional about that. Here's an interesting new document. http://www.straightincarchives.com/anon ... erDepo.htm (http://www.straightincarchives.com/anonanon/docs/straight/BettySemblerDepo.htm)
See Betty Sembler employing the same logical[sic] strategy distort the history of that spin off program. Government can do something for the people only in proportion as it can do something to the people
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
-
On 2005-09-29 06:42:00, John Underwood wrote:
Do you honestly believe we (staff) wanted these persons on the program ? Why?
Because they were there and you had control over that. If you didn't want them there, you could have refused to admit them (as you say you did me) or, at any time, asked them to leave. But you didn't. And I think your perceptions of how many actual addicts you had in group are extremely far off and self serving. I've heard SO many times from SO many different people that they eventually just lied and said they were addicts in order to be allowed to go home.
What, they're all lying? Just making shit up? For what possible reason, John? Is this some kind of conspiracy against you?
say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author
-
Some kids might have lied about drug usage. I never heard of one person lying about being an "Addict".
Are you SO sure of SO much stuff. SO THERE.
-
On 2005-09-29 07:11:00, GregFL wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 07:05:00, Thom wrote:
"yeah, what he said!"
Gee what a surprise. Wipe you nose off, Thom..it appears to be obtaining a brown stain once again.
"
::soapbox::
-
quote--------
"Do you mean to tell me that all I had to do was raise my hand and say some thing like
I disagree with the policy that only allows me to use the bathroom once or twice a day?
Your statement flies in the face of whole druggie-rehab control philosphy."
---------------
All excellent points, anon. You seem to be pointing to the authoritarian structure of the Seed. It was not a democracy where anyone could even bitch, whine or complain much less actually make constructive suggestions or try to change things. The authoritarian heirarchy was similar to that of the catholic church. A lowly church member can't make any meaningful suggestions or critique. Even priests or theologians that dare to question the party line are often dealt with harshly. All authority flows downward from the vatican. At the Seed, all authority flowed downward from Art. (not picking on catholicism here, just an example...the same is true for many religious organizations)
There are "positive" aspects to dictatorships. The famous quip about Mussolini making the trains run on time comes to mind. Hitler reduced unemployment and raised living standards (unless you were jewish). Stalin turned the USSR from a backward agrarian nation into a modern industrial state. I suppose any of these guys or their underlings could complain that the world keeps focusing on the negative aspects of their legacy. "You killed millions of people." "Well, yeah. But what about all the positive things we accomplished?"
In a newspaper article from way back, a seedling tells a reporter; "We talk alot about our beliefs." I chuckled when I read that. We didn't discuss our beliefs or exchange honest opinions there. We imbibed and regurgitated the beliefs we were fed on cue. Imagine a room full of random people actually 'talking about their beliefs' and compare that with what actually went on at the Seed. We were told what to believe just like any religious sect trains it's adherents. No dissent, no criticism, no suggestions. "This is the Truth" & you must believe it.
One problem with a top-down authoritarian organization is that any blind-spots or short-comings at the very top infect the rest of the group. Since no-one could honestly confront or criticize Art, any fault he had was glossed-over and passed down to staff and on to group. Smoking is a good example of this. Art was addicted and unable to quit smoking. Therefore, all sorts of justifications were acceptable in that regard. I remember people saying; ' Well, we've given up so many addictions, we have to keep just one.' The whole addiction to tobacco issue was never even questioned simply because our leader was addicted. As far as I know, no-one dared confront Art any time his own ego was out of whack. Art's blind spots were passed down to staff and then to group. Any screwy idea he harbored was acceptable for the group to hold. To question / confront him would have been seen as being ungrateful and f.o.s. Not only is this all harmful to the whole group, it wasn't even fair to Art himself. It allowed him to develop a grossly exagerated sense of his own importance and infallibility leading to a disconnect with reality on some level. This is common with any revered preacher or cult guru.
When I began to question the Seed and became disillusioned, I would sometimes sit in group and fantasize about what the Seed might be like if it were real. What if everything were honestly questioned and examined?What if we really did talk about our beliefs? What if we were really honest? It was years later when I began to understand that this 'ideal' seed could never exist. The very premise is wrong. I came to the view that truth...the truth about myself, my relationship to others, the world, etc. could never be the product of simply accepting beliefs or conclusions from someone else.
Peer pressure / brainwashing can only substitute one form of conditioning for another. It isn't capable of uncovering the very nature of conditioning itself. You can't brow-beat anyone into real honesty or integrity. Real honesty, to me, meant questioning not only all the things the Seed advocated concerning my druggie past, but questioning the beliefs and conclusions of Art and the Seed as well. A real rap session...as opposed to the indoctrination we recieved at the seed....would fearlessly examine any and all beliefs and conclusions in an attempt to uncover what is true and real. Not according to Art or staff or xyz. A real rap would be a dialogue, not a monologue featuring people talking at one another. It would be an environment that attempted to be free of peer-pressure to conform, not one that encouraged it and tried to use fear, insecurity and guilt to mold the ideal ubermensh....homo seedlingus. In that imaginary place, any suggestions or criticism would certainly have been welcomed and we could then perhaps be held accountable for not trying to make improvements.
-
On 2005-09-29 09:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
""Same Shit different shithole"
Greg are you quoting Homer or Tennyson? :grin: "
Looks like he is describing a colostomy
-
On 2005-09-29 12:44:00, Thom wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 09:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
""Same Shit different shithole"
Greg are you quoting Homer or Tennyson? :grin: "
Looks like he is describing a colostomy"
Wow that's really funny. Give up the gay porn acting and get into stand-up comedy.
Thou art a Stepcraft-practicing buffoon.
-
On 2005-09-29 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Some kids might have lied about drug usage. I never heard of one person lying about being an "Addict".
Are you SO sure of SO much stuff. SO THERE."
Every single newcomer (except those rare few who refused till they could split) stood up at open meenting and said "Hi, I'm [first name] and I'm a druggie". In most cases, that was a lie. In some of the more tragic cases, it was bullshit; an untrue statement believed by the speaker.
It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
-
On 2005-09-29 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 12:44:00, Thom wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 09:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
""Same Shit different shithole"
Greg are you quoting Homer or Tennyson? :grin: "
Looks like he is describing a colostomy"
Wow that's really funny. Give up the gay porn acting and get into stand-up comedy.
Thou art a Stepcraft-practicing buffoon."
Thank thee
-
Oh so now you change it from addict to druggie. Please make up your mind.
Or was it that was at Straight or the Seed or Straight or the Seed or Straight or the Seed.
I keep getting confused. Thats right you were not at the Seed just Straight Inc.
-
None of them said I'm a druggie.
They said there Name , how old they were, & the drugs that they did.
AT THE SEED THATS HOW IT WENT.
-
What's the difference between a druggie and an addict?
"When I was a druggie" was, in most cases in the Seed, a lie.
Now, here's a challenging question. If not coercion or undue influence (legal def, i.e. brainwashing) why did all those thousands of kids call themselves druggies when they were not?
It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college. And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.
We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.
--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law
-
On 2005-09-29 13:54:00, Antigen wrote:
"What's the difference between a druggie and an addict?
"When I was a druggie" was, in most cases in the Seed, a lie.
Now, here's a challenging question. If not coercion or undue influence (legal def, i.e. brainwashing) why did all those thousands of kids call themselves druggies when they were not?
All those thousands that weren't druggies?
Name 10.
-
Well, I can name 4, Mcnultys all. Then there was our neighbor, Mike and our other neighbor, Pam. Just read around these forums awhile. You'll find many instances of people talking about how they were pressured into confessing drug problems they never had.
Now, add to that that the actual rate of addiction in any population has remained around 1% - 3% since we've been keeping track and that most of those people don't become addicted till adulthood. It just doesn't pass the giggle test that thousands of kids who all happen to be tied by way of their parents just happened to all be addicts.
It's just astounding to me that, all these years later, you still think there were that many addicted teenagers in one highschool or another. What are you smoking, anyway?All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.
--H.L. Mencken
-
ah, you said druggies, not addicts
-
All those thousands that weren't druggies?
Name 10.
On 2005-09-29 16:22:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well, I can name 4, Mcnultys all. Then there was our neighbor, Mike and our other neighbor, Pam.
Totally false, Ginger.
A druggie is a person who uses (illicit) drugs.
I know all the people you are refering to, and have used drugs with all of them (but not in a while:). If my math is right, I'm even one of them. I was never coerced into admitting I was a druggie by anyone. I admitted it of my own free will.
An addict is a person who can no longer claim to be a recreational drug user because they can't stop, or could not stop without help.
I, Thom McNulty (on behalf of myself), who used to be a druggie (used illicit drugs) a long time ago, and freely admitted it while at The Seed, do hereby revoke my (his/her) status as a member of the Fornits Cult. Further, I demand that any and all persons who publicly proclaim a given number of 'Fornits Cult Members', henceforth reduce said number by one.
I do this of my own free will for the following reason(s): I/he/she don't wish to submit myself to the false teachings and abusive behavior of the Fornits Cult any longer.
Although I've enjoyed catching up on fond memories of my time at The Seed with a few posters here, I feel I have contributed all my experiences from The Seed.
(This stuff happened 30 years ago, for crying out loud! GET A LIFE!)
I am a truthful person, and have had enough of being accused of lying by Ginger, Greg and Anon. I have nothing I need to prove to anyone, and reading some of this crap is an annoying waste my valuable time. See ya!
( ::bangin:: ::ftard:: ::dove::
-
Sorry to see you go, Thom. If this were a cult, I'd tell you that without fornits you are sure to end up in a.) hell b.) insane c.) prison d.) dead. Choose one or all. I appreciated your input here.
quote-----
"This stuff happened 30 years ago, for crying out loud! GET A LIFE!)"
---------
I hope reading or posting here isn't a substitute for anyone's life, but I get your point. It was a long time ago for many of us...and heck the Seed program itself is defunct. Strange that so many of us get so worked up about events so long ago. Easy to lose perspective. A bunch of old farts arguing about stuff from our childhood. Staff sometimes trying to reprise their role as authority figures and other posters acting like angry, rebellious teens...as if this all happened last week. Take care.
Why...when I was on my program we had to walk 3 miles through the snow just to sit for 10 hours on hard metal chairs...dagnabit! :wave:
-
Thom. Sorry to see you go, but I don't blame you
you are kind of teamed up against around here.
Good Luck & best wishes. I'll probably join you soon in your retirement from this site.
Antigen,
I can not fathom that you don't know the difference between a druggie and an addict. But then again you don't know the difference between the Seed & straight either.
I have come to believe that you really don't know what you are talking about. I hope to God you get it someday.
I have enjoyed reconnecting with alot of folks on this site.
I will check in from time to time to see if I recognize any one else from their posts. I've been pretty lucky so far.
¾È³ç ±×¸®°í Çà¿îÀ» º÷´Ï´Ù (thats good bye & good luck
in Korean Mind control) really just Korean
-
if this were a cult you'd be telling us what to think, ...wait a minute that is what you do
ah,...the sea of denial, ain't it beautiful
-
Give me a break. A pretty good number of the posters here are very pro-Seed, many others are on the fence. Your sister may be very anti-anti, but she's about the only one who doesn't have anything positive to say about it.
Well, if you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen I guess. I for one will express my truth and let the chips fall where they may. I am very careful not to blame, accuse or make bald assertions. Very rarely am I challenged for this reason. The Seed has good and bad; AA has good and bad: Thom, Ginger, Walter, Ft. Laud. have good and bad; John U - good and bad. Greg alone is perfect! (Um...joking).
Come back from time to time. I enjoy your sense of humor (mostly). I think you and Ginger should try to reconcile, but I know that's not easy. Such a shame to lose family.
Walter
-
On 2005-09-29 19:38:00, Thom wrote:
Totally false, Ginger.
A druggie is a person who uses (illicit) drugs.
That is NOT a condition requiring any sort of treatment, let alone a radical program like the Seed. It does not justify the strip searches, isolation from the world, group come down raps or any of the rest of it. You must know that by now you would have put my neice in a program.
I know all the people you are refering to, and have used drugs with all of them (but not in a while:). If my math is right, I'm even one of them. I was never coerced into admitting I was a druggie by anyone. I admitted it of my own free will.
Well, I never was inside your head. For all I know you really were that crazy by age 14. But I'm highly skeptical of the idea. All the rest of us have since said it was bullshit.
An addict is a person who can no longer claim to be a recreational drug user because they can't stop, or could not stop without help.
Yes, roughly 1% of people who start using addictive drugs have some difficulty quitting. That does NOT describe the vast majority of kids who were placed there, like Greg, because someone stood up in group and LIED about having gotten high w/ them at one time or another. Also, btw, this medical condition can not be diagnosed by the presense of concert posters and tshirts, new friends, an intense need for privacy, trying on new styles and entertainment or making new friends. That's how Art said you could tell your kid was carrying on a secret double life as a heroin addicted hooker. And it was a lie.
I, Thom McNulty (on behalf of myself), who used to be a druggie (used illicit drugs) a long time ago, and freely admitted it while at The Seed, do hereby revoke my (his/her) status as a member of the Fornits Cult. Further, I demand that any and all persons who publicly proclaim a given number of 'Fornits Cult Members', henceforth reduce said number by one.
I do this of my own free will for the following reason(s): I/he/she don't wish to submit myself to the false teachings and abusive behavior of the Fornits Cult any longer.
Although I've enjoyed catching up on fond memories of my time at The Seed with a few posters here, I feel I have contributed all my experiences from The Seed.
(This stuff happened 30 years ago, for crying out loud! GET A LIFE!)
I am a truthful person, and have had enough of being accused of lying by Ginger, Greg and Anon. I have nothing I need to prove to anyone, and reading some of this crap is an annoying waste my valuable time. See ya!
( ::bangin:: ::ftard:: ::dove:: "
Just sit tight, broth. The SIBS mobile is headed your way. :roll: The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
-
On 2005-09-30 07:55:00, cleveland wrote:
Come back from time to time. I enjoy your sense of humor (mostly). I think you and Ginger should try to reconcile, but I know that's not easy. Such a shame to lose family.
Thanks, Walter. I appreciate the sentiment. But here's the thing; Thom and the rest of the family are still quite dangerous to me emotionally. Hell, even in practical terms.
Try settling an estate w/ people who think they can legitimately win any argument by saying "You're crazy, you're a druggie, I don't have any time to listen to your drugged out ramblings or read any old stupid letters between you and that crazy old man."
That happened just 3 years ago.
And that's just money and property! Never mind what happens if I ever have a rough time or need any kind of emotional support. No sir, thanks but no thanks! I'll stick w/ the family I've got.
A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
-
You have to make that call.
I hope that as the years pass, you will be able to talk. But if not, you've set up this forum and directly or indirectly, there's an avenue to communicate. Safer than a 'family meeting!'
Walter
-
Thanks.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
-
Thom,
Thanks for sharing old memories, since discoving this forum so many things came back to me, the good and the bad, but mostly the good. It seems there are a few people that just can't handle anything good being said about the Seed. I know your mother and your sister Ginger made sandwiches during a period when I was there and I want to thank them for there hard work. As a whole group the Seed did have a special power it was a spiritual experiece for me, I had a chance to be a part of something positive which I never had in life before the Seed and people really mattered to me. I wish your sister could have been there to have experienced that love, but she wasn't. she will try to compare the Seed to many other places, but they were copycats. There was only one Seed and you had to be in it to have experienced it. And for those that feel the Seed was abusive and a brain washing prison, well that's their perception and I won't dispute that, but I would blame them and their parents for puting them in there, in case they all forgot it was a drug rehab.
Thom, I hope you will continue to post for those of us who enjoy what you have to say...
-
"Yes, roughly 1% of people who start using addictive drugs have some difficulty quitting. That does NOT describe the vast majority of kids who were placed there, like Greg, because someone stood up in group and LIED about having gotten high w/ them at one time or another. Also, btw, this medical condition can not be diagnosed by the presense of concert posters and tshirts, new friends, an intense need for privacy, trying on new styles and entertainment or making new friends. That's how Art said you could tell your kid was carrying on a secret double life as a heroin addicted hooker. And it was a lie."
this, by antigen, is 100%, unadultered BULLSHIT.
where do you get this stuff? beginning to think maybe Thom is the sane one in your family.
-
rjfro22, what's the difference between love and rape? Thanks, my brain really never needed a good washing.
A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa
-
On 2005-09-30 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"if this were a cult you'd be telling us what to think, ...wait a minute that is what you do
ah,...the sea of denial, ain't it beautiful"
I guess the concept of a two-way conversation just mostly never occured to most of you seed trained thinkers...
I think the horrible concept at which you collectively lash out at is that people here tell you want THEY think, not what you want to hear.
-
On 2005-09-30 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Yes, roughly 1% of people who start using addictive drugs have some difficulty quitting. That does NOT describe the vast majority of kids who were placed there, like Greg, because someone stood up in group and LIED about having gotten high w/ them at one time or another. Also, btw, this medical condition can not be diagnosed by the presense of concert posters and tshirts, new friends, an intense need for privacy, trying on new styles and entertainment or making new friends. That's how Art said you could tell your kid was carrying on a secret double life as a heroin addicted hooker. And it was a lie."
this, by antigen, is 100%, unadultered BULLSHIT.
where do you get this stuff? beginning to think maybe Thom is the sane one in your family.
"
No, I think that is about 100% accurate, except the last sarcastic line about "heroin addicted hooker". He didn't really say that is what the druggie was, only that it is where she was headed.
-
I wish your sister could have been there to have experienced that love, but she wasn't.
Now your wishing the seed on her?
I tell you what, I was there. I experienced the "love" and frankly I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It is the most phony contrived "love" I have ever witnessed. I have also observed the "love" that Straight and other copycats demonstrated, and there is NO difference.
Tell me, how do you stop loving someone because they leave your "group"?
-
"I guess the concept of a two-way conversation just mostly never occured to most of you seed trained thinkers"
---actually it doesnt seem to occur to most people. seed trained or not
which begs the question. how do we determine if a person is a "seed trained thinker" ?
since we all went thru it who gets to claim to not be affected by it?
-
Well, I think we were all affected by it. But there is a certain element of people who filter all responses and spew what would be expected of a seedling, justifying all criticism of the seed. Granted, this is just a couple people. Most people here are able to reason their responses.
Read the thread about Art's diploma for an example.
-
Or people who equate criticizm of the Seed, or even tolerance of it, with condemnation of their own rosey colored views. Shit, for awhile there Lauderdale was trying to argue that the Seed was all voluntary, even after John admitted that they kept kids by force.
Now THAT's brainwashed!
For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
-
along these lines of being affected, i remember a post you made greg which i found to be quite funny,. just simply stated
put down the kool aid and slowly back away!!
not sure why, it just caught me as terribly funny. it was one of the first threads i read on this forum
reading someone of the threads it pops into my head every now and then. saw koolaid at publix the other day....had to buy crystal light....
-
you mean i had a choice???
-
On 2005-10-01 16:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"along these lines of being affected, i remember a post you made greg which i found to be quite funny,. just simply stated
put down the kool aid and slowly back away!!
not sure why, it just caught me as terribly funny. it was one of the first threads i read on this forum
reading someone of the threads it pops into my head every now and then. saw koolaid at publix the other day....had to buy crystal light.... "
Thanks..once in a while I say something funny.
With as hard as I try, you think it would happen a bit more.
:lol:
-
Gregfl,
I am not wishing the Seed on Ginger, in fact I am glad she wasn't there, Why is she speaking for everyone that was, and Greg I wish you weren't there either,
I think your father deserves credit for that. I speak for no one but myself, I was there and for me it worked, when I left, I really left. I made decisions that the Seed would not approved of. I made my own decisions, so much for brainwashing. Now looking back
and with 19 years of sobiety I have have gratitude for the role the Seed played in my younger life. I also can see some of the imperfections of the Seed , but I believe it had more to do with the times we were living in. People were just learning about the drug problem and they may have over reacted back them.
-
Good post my friend.
But you can't blame all the issues and problems of the seed "on the times".
The seed was a personality cult that was driven by the massive egos of those in charge. It was bound to be a mess, and it was.
-
Gregfl
That's your opinion, I saw things differently, Art did have a big ego but he had an even bigger heart.
-
Geg I was a bad juvenille deingquit. I gotthrouh hgh schooland into a college on a sixth grade New York sstate e3ducation because of the Seed and fullfilled all my dreams and nightmares.
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
--Denis Diderot, French encyclopedist
-
Greg,
I feel that you would have a better time if you were in charge.
Listen.
Clyde freedom
-
Greg get help.
-
Thanks for being you.