Need your opinion

[ladyjerrico]

Agh! I can't edit this.. but I wanted to say that I don't need you or anonymous bitching me out or humilating me for my opinions or judgment in saftey concerns for where I work. I only post on what I think. These opinions are strong for me, so if you don't like them you don't have to, however, I would ask for a little respect. Also, I had enough low self image in Straight, and I won't leave this site.. so kiss my butt!

[Anonymous]

While I would agree that no person should be behind the wheel of any vehicle while under the influence of ANY mind altering drug, it is a violation of a persons 4th amendment rights to be subject to such tests. Are you saying that If I were to smoke a recreational joint in the privacy of my own home tonight, that I should loose my job tomorrow because I could not pass a drug test? How about if a have a tendency to eat large quantities of poppy seed bagels (as I often do), should I loose my job because traces of opiates show up?

It just seems to me that you would judge these people guilty before proven innocent beyond any shadow of doubt.

[the other anonymous]

I'm still thinking on this one.  Say you were applying to be a pilot.  They'd check out all your credentials to make sure you were trained, and I imagine your medical records to make sure you didn't have an unsafe condition, why not check out your pee?

In this case there is a very compelling safety reason to piss test, unlike the case of the video store clerks.  They should make sure those people ARE smoking dope.

[Anonymous]

So, A pilot who likes to smoke pot in his off hours should be denied a job, while the other who drinks like a fish will be hired with no problem?

You see, with this thinking you are riding a fine line. Already we have roaming road blocks to check for DUIs. How much longer do you think it will be before you are stopped while walking down the street, and are asked to show "Your Papers"?

To be honest it is already happening in some areas. For example in some Fla areas, the cops routinely stop (walking) teenagers/20 somethings (during daylight hours as well as night). Ask for their ID, Ask to see any identifying tatoos. Ask where they are going, what they are doing. At this point they are cataloged for future needs. All this without provocation.

Frankly, I believe that random drug testing or even testing ppl in order to obtain employment is a NAZI tactic to control the public!

Besides, if you are going to test for drugs, why don't we do some DNA testing too so we can weed out ppl of Arab descent.

[the other anonymous]

SysAdmin wrote: So, A pilot who likes to smoke pot in his off hours should be denied a job, while the other who drinks like a fish will be hired with no problem?

Not exactly.  I don't know that testing for pot can be as exact as the breathalyzer for alcohol -- in other words, how high are you?  Can the pot test show that you have smoked pot so recently as to be impaired when flying a plane or driving a big rig?  Or does it just show that you have smoked in the past month or so?

Also, I would not want someone who "drank like a fish" as my pilot, would you?

And, I don't know that it is necessary to make all the leaps you are making, like to having to carry papers.  I think the two things can be considered separately, and of course I think it is wrong if the police are randomly stopping people as you describe.

I just can't see that it would be wrong for an airline to check out their pilots each and every time.  They check the rest of us as thoroughly as they can now, why not the pilots?

I find your comments about Arabs offensive.  I would never condone such a thing.

[Anonymous]

Since we are talking about simply obtaining a job, not what happens on the job. I dont see where that comment fits. If my pilot goes on a bender when he is off, that is his business, I could care less. My only concern it that he is not impaired at the time he is to preform his duties.

Other then a breathalizer which only detects alcohol I know of no other test that would be immediate, so there would be no way of knowing that your vehicle operator is impaired from any other substance until after the fact.

As far as making leaps, what do you think the talk of a national ID card is about. The word "papers" is a non-literal term for a very real thing, at current we call them:

drivers licenses...... registration...... proof of insurace.....

And you can not deny that!

If you find my comment's about Arabs offensive that is a shame, sarcasm is one of the things I do best :smile: Also, while you may not condone such acts there are those, some which are quite possibly in power, that would.

[Antigen]

I really think that's where we're headed if we don't find a way to peacefully overturn the drug warriors and all their scapegoating, tyranical nonsense.
Whether a significant number of people are ready to realize it or not is another question.

So I'm divided on whether or not I like the reference being there. If people don't want to see it, it's like sacrificing the rest of the content to the cause of trying to make the parallels known. I think that's a worthy cause, myself. But I'm not sure if that's what you're after, Marti.

"Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again."
-- F. P. Jones

[Antigen]

On 2002-11-07 21:07:00, the other anonymous wrote:
I'm still thinking on this one.  Say you were applying to be a pilot.  They'd check out all your credentials to make sure you were trained, and I imagine your medical records to make sure you didn't have an unsafe condition, why not check out your pee?

Because it's a very poor indicator of competence and responsibility. The vast majority of drug users, whether they prefer licit drugs (like beer or prozac) or illicit drugs (like MJ and cocain) use their drugs responsibly. They don't show up to work intoxicated. They seperate their recreational activities from their responsibilities.

One great big lie we all learned in Straight is that recreation (and sleep and affection and liberty of thought, for that matter) is not a necessity. It is. Absolutely. If you want to remain sane, find a way to have fun!

But that distinction between responsible, recreational use and abuse which interferes with one's ability to perform a task doesn't show up on a piss test. A positive piss test is no different in my view than a forced confession of having smoked a joint or sniffed a marker after hours of brow-beating. Well, there's one difference. Most people will just go along to get along with a piss test because they have a choice. But don't kid yourself that the Drug Free Workplace people wouldn't love to do a full-blown intake ritual as part of their hiring practice if they thought they could get away with it.

On 2002-11-07 21:07:00, the other anonymous wrote:
In this case there is a very compelling safety reason to piss test, unlike the case of the video store clerks.  They should make sure those people ARE smoking dope.

Heh. You're probably right about that. If people smoke pot, they might be choosing that over more debilitating opiates.

[Anonymous]

You fucking arrogant assed American, I cant believe that you people would point fingers at straight for a type of holocaust then turn around and want to do dna testing on arabs so they cant be pilots. First dehumanize people then we can oppress them. In straight the justification was we are all druggies with arabs its thier all terroists. Whoever posted that shit is an ignorant motherfucker. As far as drug testing I think its a good idea with the exception of weed. Hey Im sorry for the strong language but that was some ignorant ass shit. Love ya ladyj

[the other anonymous]

"The vast majority of drug users, whether they prefer licit drugs (like beer or prozac) or illicit drugs (like MJ and cocain) use their drugs responsibly."

Hmmm, you must know a different kind of drug user than I have.  People I know get stoned every day before work.  

I don't care if they do, and I think it would be wrong for their employer to test them, because it has nothing (or very little) to do with job performance.

Would airline pilots really be so different from my friends in their drug use habits?  What about those two pilots who showed up drunk to fly a plane a couple of months ago?

Perhaps I am being absurdly stubborn on this point -- and let me clarify, I am not for blanket pre-employment testing.  But I would like to know that pilots and train conductors, at least, were not impaired.

My experience with drug testing was recent.  I had to piss in a cup and let a rude girl look at it before I could get a job in a factory doing menial, repetitious work.  I did not (could not) object because I needed the money.

Now if this whole debate were in person, I'd say we should light one up.  I am wholly stressed with reality right now.

[the other anonymous]

"If you find my comment's about Arabs offensive that is a shame, sarcasm is one of the things I do best :smile: "

I knew you were being sarcastic, but it seemed like you were saying that because I condoned drug testing on pilots, I would also scapegoat Arabs.

"My only concern it that he is not impaired at the time he is to preform his duties."  

That is exactly how I feel.  Alcohol and mj can affect me even the next day.  Oh, hey, I just had an idea.  What if, instead of drug testing the pilots, they sent them into a simulator for five or ten minutes before their shift to test their reaction time and decision making and all that.  That would be much better -- it might send them home if they were overtired or coming down with the flu as well as drunk or high.

[the other anonymous]

[the other anonymous]

On 2002-11-08 20:48:00, Anonymous wrote: "You fucking arrogant assed American, I cant believe that you people would point fingers at straight for a type of holocaust then turn around and want to do dna testing on arabs so they cant be pilots."

This was in response to what SysAdmin wrote earlier in this thread:
"Besides, if you are going to test for drugs, why don't we do some DNA testing too so we can weed out ppl of Arab descent."

The whole point of SysAdmin's post was that he was against drug testing, therefore, by pairing that with DNA testing of Arabs, he was trying to make drug testing seem as offensive as DNA testing.  In other words, he was being sarcastic.  The offense was mine to take rather than an Arab person's, because he compared me -- who would (might, jury is out) like to drug test (in certain situations only) -- to someone who would like to DNA test for racist purposes.

[dreammagician]

Last year a couple moved in across the street and I found out she was a probation officer. About a month or two later I had some trouble with the law and was put on probation. I was assigned to her as my officer until I came in, she realized who I was and there was a conflict of interest. I was assigned a new officer, which was one of her buddies and my life was hell for a year until I got off probation. I remember I didn't get tested the first few times so I thought it was safe. Stupid me, I came in stoned and sure enough was tested and I had to get down on my hands and knees to not go to jail because my judge was the judge with 0 tolerance. A week before I was to get off probation I woke up to find our circle blocked off. I asked my girlfriend what was up and I was informed there was a murder suicide next door. Her husband shot her as she walked in the door and later killed himself. It's weird, I hated living next to her while I was on probation because I was always afraid she would see me doing something.

[Anonymous]

I just saw the picture of the original building. It was eerie to me because I had a dream of that part of the building several months ago, but I have never stepped foot inside that building.  

Don