Author Topic: Where would you be without MMS?  (Read 5811 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2005, 11:45:00 PM »
The original post was "where would you be without MMS?

That's kind of an intersting question.

Here's what I do know. There were a whole lot of people when I was a teen who got into a whole lot of trouble i.e. drugs, alcohol, sex, you name it. Deep and serious trouble. Some landed in juvenille hall. Some even went to spend a day or two in jail (great wake-up call, by the way), and some, well God knows what happened to them.

But, the "some, well God knows what happened to them" are very few in number. Most fall somewhere in between, if they had these sorts of issues. Except for those very few who I have no idea what happened to them, be it good or bad, the rest survived, grew up, and wow, they even went to college.

And if you can believe this, without MMS, they went on to have a family and be productive wonderful adults. And they did it all on their own, with the help of their friends and families, some with the shit scared out of them after spending a couple of nights in jail or juvi. Convinced that just wasn't what they wanted for the rest of their lives.

Amazing stuff, life. Life without MMS, or life without any residential facility. Just plain old life. Life as a teenager is weird, I think just about anyone would agree. Gee, I had a girl who thought she was a horse or something. She would go around and kick you for no reason, acting like she was a horse. Weird girl. A dentist's daughter. Drugs? Nope. I knew her, she was just damn strange. But a year later she was awesome and we became best friends the rest of high school. Go figure that one out.

Then there was this guy. Destined for death, we thought. For sure, and I'm being serious. He was so screwed up from taking drugs. Today, this kid would have definitely landed in a facility. I have no doubt. But back in those days there was a difference ... kids did not have to fear being abducted in the middle of the night, taken to remote places where they would be abused and mistreated. All in the name of therapy.

I wonder what the parents think when they hear they were paying up to 100k per year to send their kid to sit in middle-of-the-night therapy sessions with - well, a recovering alcoholic with a degree in - ecology? Of course we musn't forget that he is insightful and we shouldn't blame him. Of course not, he has his own "issues."

I got side-tracked there for a moment. This boy who we thought would certainly end up dead miraculously didn't. In fact, he ended up in juvenille hall for about a week or two and it scared him to death.

This was one sick looking guy before juvi. The only people who hung around him were other equally weird guys. And most of those guys did some time there too. And the next year, junior year I think it was, they came back to school and began to study and do well. I actually danced with one of them at a dance my girlfriend had, and then I even kissed one of them. I would have never even considered remotely doing that the year before. EVER.

My point is they got through it and they grew up. They grew up quite nicely, I might add. They all went off to college and made things of their lives, had families, and are productive human beings. Never once were they sent away, never once were they forced to shovel horse shit, never once were they humiliated in front of their friends, never once were they forced to share their innermost feelings in front of their peers, never.

Where are they now? Taking care of their families, working hard, and I haven't seen a one on Fornits complaining about what happened to them in high school. They worked through their problems. Parents didn't just send them away. Everyone helped. Not only parents but relatives and friends. Many times kids who got into trouble and were out of control ended up living with grandma for the summer.

A summer was enought to straighten them up. They get lots of love with granny but they also have to listen to her complain about the corns on her toes. Sick!
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Offline hannah

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Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2005, 03:20:00 AM »
No everything is not my fault all the time. I alway have a part, though in most instances there is always two sides. You know what your doing wasn't asked for, I don't think you know me and I didn't ask you to take my inventory from the little you have read.  What I was saying about fortitude is that MMS was not easy it was hard.  And I do beleive that anyone that followed through with it had backbone, strength, or whatever you want to decipher that as.  

And what right or power do you have to be slicing up Aileens world and telling her its wrong.  A big part about me not being in MMS especially when I got out was having my own experience, and not haviing someone to tell me what to eat  or when to pee, or how to think!  Cultlike? Brainwashing?

Look I have no idea, what the answer is.  This doesn't feel like a solution I feel like I am getting squeezed off of this thing--If I don't join--then see ya--thats what it feels like.  

And I am not faking that I am an Alcoholic and I am sure you know what alcoholism is?? I go to AA, and the way I drank was never normal. I never felt normal, and when I went to MMS I got glimpses of feeling apart of.  And something that John said to me was "to go out into the world and always remember to create a community around you" So I have been active Daily in AA for abit now.  

I don't think I want to be apart of this website anymore, I feel like I have said my peice and hopefully someone heard something,  I have learned alot on this web-site and that welcome thing I was talking about earlier feeling welcomed, and like there is a place for me---this isn't it right now. I feel sad because well I think I know a lot of you and I think that we should beable to talk about it--I hope that everyone here knows that I care about MMS and I especially care about the  people the girls.  -H
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2005, 06:20:00 AM »
OKAY Antigen, whatever your name is,
do you really think what you're doing is fair?
wouldn't you think that you are "technically" behaving as an "unlicensed practitioner" using "attack therapy" resemblant methods to manipulate those with different beliefs than yourself? you're pretty much putting yourself on the same level that you have put john and everyone else at mission mountain and since you seem to think they are so terrible, think about what you are doing.
please stop quoting what everyone says and analyzing it. please stop insulting people with no reasonable cause. please stop discrediting peoples' personal experiences. nothing you are saying is conducive to any kind of solution to this problem that you think is so important.
take some time to examine yourself before you throw around harsh, judgmental statements like "sanctimonious, self righteous prig." please. at least for your own sake.
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Offline Antigen

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Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2005, 11:14:00 AM »
Where's my $100k?

My name is right there in my sig.

Quit analysing what ppl say? What am I supposed to do then? Just answer w/o thinking first or are you asking me to quit answering?

I wasn't trying to povide therapy for your w/ my comment. I was personally offended by your tone. Believe it or not (and I take it you do not) plenty of people w/ great backbone and fortitude view these programs as harmful. In my personal opinion, falling for it is probably an indication of weekness, not the other way around.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
--Thomas Jefferson

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Offline ainoue

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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2005, 11:56:00 AM »
ginger -
i respect the fact that you have your own opinion, but it is really inappropriate to be analyzing other people's lives like this.  hannah is one of the strongest women i know, and she also has had one of the most tragic stories that i have known.  so for you to be discrediting her life by telling her that her feelings before mms were "normal," is just down right mean.  i'm not here to speak hannah's story, but i cannot sit here and read someone completely discounting an amazing woman's story of recovery by telling her that she is more screwed up now than she might have been had she not gone to mms.  ginger - perhaps your experience before mms was "normal," and i understand why someone with a normal adolescent rebellion is resentful towards mms.  its definitely not for people who are just "going through a phase."  and yes - there are a lot of people out there who can go through tough spots in their adolescence and come out stronger.  but there are a lot of young kids out there who can't.  i wasn't going anywhere positive - i had lost fourty five pounds in five months, and i had absolutely no intention on stopping.  is this just a "normal" phase?  the fact that i stopped going to school alltogether so i could throw up seven times a day.... was that normal too?  is that what teenagers just do?  the fact that i punched the shit out of my mother and threw chairs at her because she wanted me to eat.  is this normal?  yes - i was self absorbed and wreckless - but here's the difference between my situation and "normal" teenagers.  i was willing to die over it. before i left for montana, i would sit at home every day, having pretended to go to school.  i would sit in my living room with the shades drawn and the phone unplugged.  and i would eat and eat and eat.  and i would cry.  i would crawl to the bathroom because i couldn't walk, and would throw up until there was only blood.  i would wait an hour, and then repeat the process.  normal?  i guess that's up to you to decide.  
The point, ginger, is that we all have our own definitions of what is normal. its fine to be against mms, but it is really harmful to people when you brush off their life experiences as nothing at all.  i am glad that you can see your teenage experience as normal - hell, i wish i could do the same sometimes!  but i can't.  and i really don't think anyone has the right to do it for me.  hannah has come through so much in her lifetime.  i talk to her on the phone when i am having a hard time because i admire how far she has come since we met.  she's doing what she needs to do to take care of herself.  if you don't know her story, don't tell her everything was fine.  please, be angry but compassionate to people's sensitive pasts.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2005, 03:37:00 PM »
you're replying to the wrong person. i am not hannah, and i'm not trying to defend myself, i am asking you to back down or at least try to start speaking for yourself. you are misinterpreting what people are saying and misconstruing perfectly reasonable accounts. i had a very neutral experience at mission mountain school - i didn't love it but nor did i despise it, and my backbone is fine. i'm not sure if you even understood what i said. of course you're not "on the same level as john" in terms of salary and whatever else you tried to justify your behavior with, but you are doing exactly what you've accused him of doing, behavior wise: trying to drill your personal thoughts and opinions into other people's heads by attacking them with abusive commentary. 100,000 dollars or not...that's still uncalled for. i am not attacking your opinion because it is totally valid and i am not about to try to talk you out of it and cause a fight (or be a hypocrite); i am asking you to behave like a respectful adult. i repeat, not even for my sake - but for your own.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2005, 04:01:00 PM »
I'm not dismissing anyone's experience. It just chaps my ass when Program proponants blame the victim as Hannah very clearly did. "Some people just don't have the backbone and fortitude to learn from toughlove. But I do." The implication being that anyone who has any complaints ought to just shut up, it's their own fault the Program didn't "work" for them cause they're too weak.

Sorry, that's just a horrible thing to say to someone who's been through what you girls describe. It's about the same as telling a rape victim it's her own fault for not fighting harder. And I find that rather offensive.

I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2005, 06:09:00 PM »
"Some people just don't have the backbone and fortitude to learn from toughlove. But I do."

wow that comment says it all! It's like you are saying all of us who are making accusations against the school are completely screwed up, an we aren't very wise as you are, or the other girls who "took positive things out of it". Trust me I know about toughlove, and it does not mean that I have to allow people to step all over me.
you must be so much smarter than us because you managed "to see the light". My wisdom goes far beyond MMS.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2005, 07:51:00 PM »
It doesn't appear to me that Ginger is doing what Mercer was doing. She's joining in converstation with the rest of us. She's not forcing you to reveal your darkest secrets and she's not forcing you to tell her everything, in great detail, about any sexual experience you had, or possibly did not have. She's telling her feelings about what she is reading.

There's a very definite riff here - some people truly had horrifying experiences at MMS and for them hearing others, some who they thought were their friends, discount their experiences and praise the school is a bit hard to swallow. I can understand them.

Someone has made some subtle threats to Ginger, I saw it in a few posts. That is not conducive to anything here. You are all saying what you want so there shouldn't be a problem with her interjecting her thoughts from experiences she has had in her life.

Settle down, girls.
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Offline aileen

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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2005, 04:51:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-05-04 19:17:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-05-04 16:36:00, aileen wrote:


I may have lost my point somewhere in there.




Yeah, you did. Looks like you got caught up in all the cult lingo and mindset and sort of dazed there for a few. That's what the cult experts call "floating".



Maybe your olddruggie friends weren't all that bad and maybe the sex wasn't always of the hurtful variety?



I lose my point because I ramble too much, I've always done that EVEN BEFORE I WENT TO MMS! OH MY GOD! COULD IT BE? LOSING MY POINT HAS NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MMS? Stop fucking analyzing me.

I didn't like it either when they overanalyzed us (which happened at times) at boarding school, but I definitely don't need it now.

Not to get bitchy but it's just fucking annoying.

No my old druggie friends weren't all bad, in fact I was a worse influence on them at times than the other way around. And no I'm not dumping on myself I tried to push drugs on them like crack so I wouldn't feel so bad about using them myself. And just because a lot of my peer group smokes pot and gets trashed in college doesn't mean that it's right for them or for me. And maybe they can handle it but all it did for me was get me fucked up in a bad way. It's not worth the risk of going back, because smoking pot already was an easy way for me to get back into the druggie culture and jump to shit like heroin and say fuck it all! I just want to get high and not do shit! And I can feel that tugging on me still sometimes.

And no the sex always was of the hurtful variety. I had sex with older guys because they were "hot" and popular and could give me the attention that recreated the sexual abuse I experienced. I was aware of the feeling even at the time though less consciously, I wanted to fuck my cousin.

I didn't even care about the people I had sex with, sometimes I did it just so they'd be friends with me. Or give me attention (though they hardly paid attention while we were doing the deed even) though afterwards they'd pretend I didn't exist and nothing had ever happened. I'd go home and feel shitty and binge and take a boiling shower... so gee, I think it was kind of harmful. I didn't think it was harmful because MMS told me it was. I knew it was, I just didn't want to stop because I didn't know any other way of dealing with these fucking feelings. I didn't know how to go about it.

I am having sex now with somebody I care about and it's damn good and it's not harmful and I can tell the difference.

Now I'm going back to your other post and seeing how else I can bitch.

Oh wait! I didn't say my old druggie friends were bad. In fact, I'm still friends with a bunch of them. However there were some relationships I know that they were just leeches and I didn't really care about them either it was just the bond that we were doing drugs together and that we were both fucked up. Those are people I'd go to today and be disgusted because they live a life of complete image and don't know who they are, they leech off the people around them to get love and an identity and I still sometimes wish I were there with them because that life was easy, though fucking painful because every day after coming home from being with my "friends" I'd cry and feel fucking alone inside. Those people aren't good for me because they'd want me to go back to the same old life we had before... I know because I was one of them.

However, some of my old druggie friends are cool and I had real relationships with them underneath it all. It STILL wouldn't have been good for me to call them at first because I tried to call my friend to meet me when I tried to run away, just as an example. I wanted to cling to them, cling to the druggie image I had instead of letting go and figuring out I was a person on my own. I wanted to stay in contact with them because I wanted to figure out ways I could get drugs shipped to me or I could plan to run away (which had nothing to do with MMS, I was always running away, I just wanted to go use and not give a shit about anything).

YEah I sound like a bitch. I'm pissed. Because I don't take everything at face value as I said, and I know what I'm saying, even though I lose my point because I digress a lot. I don't need you to preach at me and don't say you aren't you fucking sound preachy like I'm some dumb little cult product and I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about even though OH WHAT? this is my life and I'm inside my own fucking head!?! I've just been bitchy lately anyway. Maybe it's PMS. But yeah I'll calm down now and say I'm sorry if I've offended you but there are some valid points in what I say above.

Now I'll go look at your other post and get riled up again.[ This Message was edited by: aileen on 2005-05-06 01:53 ]
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Offline aileen

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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2005, 05:05:00 AM »
You don't need to defend Antigen/Ginger. She's not a fucking god, and she's not as helpful as some people made her out to be in other posts I've read, not so open-minded, she is obviously against these places and insulting that girl she was talking to on pg 2 of this topic. Now she does make valid points at times, but she's not the fucking expert on everything.

What are your qualifications Ginger to say that this kind of therapy doesn't help girls? I know it helped me... I told every detail I could recall about being abused and it lifted a fucking boulder off my back. And I told it again in a group with my parents. And I felt even less burdened. Therapists who deal with children with sexual abuse ask them questions... for instance, my therapist deals with many sexually abused children (as well as sex offenders, and much else, she is qualified and experienced and a good therapist) and she recounts children who would blurt out everything that happens to them and tells it over and over again because saying it HELPS and lifts the shame off and takes away a little of the pain. Dammit I'm losing my point again because I'm ranting. It must be "floating," shit what else could it be, maybe I'm just a distractable person? What? Couldn't be.
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Offline aileen

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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2005, 05:30:00 AM »
I needed to be removed completely shut off from the world because I am smart, thank you very much, and I could find ways to run off or do other shit. As I said in my above post, I also wanted to cling to a certain identity, and don't tell me that's healthy. Kids do it, it's a phase, but I needed to separate myself from that in order to figure out how I thought, how I felt, how I was, and not stay in that I don't give a fuck place because I took it to an extreme to where I didn't speak to my parents because I resented them so much and I fantasized about killing them and actually set it up trying to get myself to do it... don't tell me that's fucking normal. Even if that happened to you doesn't mean it's fucking good a lot of families are fucked up and it's more normal but not healthy.

Sleeping out the snow was not fun. It was, in some ways, if I think about it because we joked about shit. It was uncomfortable, but not a threat to our lives. It was a punishment, and I don't believe that punishment always works, even though that's how our culture runs... on punishment instead of discipline. Well fuck that's too bad why don't we blame the whole culture while we're at it.

The way you say things is skewed. Forcing? Little girls? Room full of people? Sex? Okay forcing, they told us to do certain things and from what I saw it helped.

They pushed a girl to yell "I'm not a victim" because she wouldn't believe it and she was still thinking that she couldn't help herself. She didn't want to do it. You could say they forced her but it's not like they physically forced her, or threatened her by putting a gun to her head. She was pressured sure.

Little girls makes it sound like we were seven year-olds. Sex, no not just sex, when I was there they didn't have us talk about just any sex. They had us tell the group not just "a room full of people" but people they spent every day with and knew and weren't strangers about sexual trauma because talking about it helps. I didn't speak a word about my abuse to anybody for about eight years. It was still there and growing. Then one day I told a random stranger about it online. And you know what? It didn't retraumatize me... I felt like a fucking ball of fairy dust afterwards. I felt amazing. And I was like, shit, I need to talk about this. But I didn't go about it the right way. When I talked in group and said things that were embarassing to say I felt great afterwards. Shame can be used in different ways. The type of shame that engulfs a sex abuse victim is not healthy. They feel dirty and shameful because they feel they were at fault, because they feel they are dirty and shameful not what happened to them. So talking about it helps to defy those underlying beliefs. I KNOW CUZ I WENT THROUGH IT AND I'M STILL GOING THROUGH IT.

Oh and I picked that sentence apart because that sentence was deliberately designed to present the issue a certain way to the reader, whether you were aware that you put it together taht way or it just came out because its waht you perceive and believe... Forcing little girls to talk about sex in a room full of people might as well be Encouraging young women to share their experiences with sexual abuse in a group of close peers. It's all skewed skewed skewed skewed.

And yes I am skewed too in certain ways. I believe that therapy helped me and it did. I believe I was not brainwashed by a cult. I do not condone the punishment method, because discipline can work better, but it takes a great deal of effort. I believe a lot of other crap too and see things my way but I am too tired to go about this. I just pointed that out because you said something about not taking sides or some shit along those lines in a post I read I really don't remember your exact words sorry if I screwed it up I have horrible memory.

I never felt shamed by anyone at school, not that I can remember. And do not tell me that's because I was brainwashed by a cult. I don't believe that.

I don't think I'm flawed. Where the hell did you get that shit from? I do get down on myself at times when I get depressed and it's stupid but I am not flawed. I used to think that, before going to MMS. I used to think I wasn't even a part of the human race, that I was just a filthy sex object... Gary actually helped me a lot with that, as did Jim Rogers, as did staff like Russell who talked to me like I was a person even though he was male and I was supposed to be nothing but sex to him (in my head), as did the girls who were real with me and treated me like a person... I gained a fucking lot out of the school, I don't agree with everything about the school or about life ... It needs work yes but no it's not a fucking cult that's fucking ridiculous and watch how you use that word it causes serious harm and people get all caught up like oh my god it's a cult it's not that's shit... you know what I have done research on cults before but once I get these finals out of the way I will go and do extensive research on cults and on brainwashing and then I'll come back to you and either say again it's shit or say okay I was wrong sorry. But for now, it's shit. shit hsithsithihtithsishit. okay it's late... i'm getting weird.[ This Message was edited by: aileen on 2005-05-06 02:33 ][ This Message was edited by: aileen on 2005-05-06 02:37 ]
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Offline aileen

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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2005, 05:52:00 AM »
I just read what I wrote. I went a little far, I reread some other posts and I don't think Ginger you actually said you were not opinionated on the topic... I don't know where that impression came from. So apologies about that, I misunderstood something.

But the rest still stands for now.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2005, 10:35:00 AM »
Aileen, Maybe you have ADD?
I figured out that I have that, not necessarily the source of all my problems, but certainly made it a struggle at excelling at things that would make it easier for me to move forward in my life...that is, succeed...I too would digress frequently and my writing were frequently as disjointed as your own.
Also, FYI it's not uncommon to want to fuck your cousin.  And studies have shown that it's a myth and simply cultural taboo, but not genetically harmful to offspring procreated,(should offspring be produced)- which is the only leg the myth has to stand on.  Don't know if you felt shame about that, but it's only society that makes that desire problematic.   :smile:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2005, 10:37:00 AM »
you said some girls make ginger out to be a God...and you asked what are her qualificatins for analizying things or...whatever that statement was...

anyway atleast she's hasn't opened a theraputic boarding school and analyzing girls, and "judging" through theraputic analysis without a theraputic licese.
chill out!  she's just a chick stating her opinions
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