Author Topic: Where would you be without MMS?  (Read 5770 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hannah

  • Posts: 9
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« on: May 03, 2005, 07:20:00 PM »
`This is really really important, what you guys are doing
thought a lot about my experience at MMS-since I have left.  I have alot of respect for your intentions. I also have due respect and gratitude for what I recieved from MMS (for example being told to do things I didn't want to do, the truth being that I didn't want to do anything anybody told me to do, because I had my answers on life itleast I thought I did) elements that you all are pointing at and calling abusive.


The truth is one MMS has changed ten fold since I have been there and has a completely different face since you graduated.

I find most of the posting here especially the letter to Colleen un professional, and based in self-centered fear. I have read alot of  posts and my observation is that they are mostly pleas of righteous pride and anger, this unfortunately does not help anyone. And especially does not serve as anything useful because there is nothing here that can really be used agianst MMS ( this seems to be your intention, "to shut down the school.") When ever I have something I need to look at in my life and I find my self righteously angry about it and blaming someone else for my life-I have to ask my self and sit with this question, "After all didn't I set the ball rolling?"

I will never be able to deny experience there, I think about it everyday.  Reading through all of these postings leaves me in still more ambiguity about what the majority of MMS Alum have to say about their time spent there.

Though I really thought about your statement earlier, "how you wouldn't send your daughters to MMS."  And the truth is that I wouldn't either, I wouldn't wish my brian, issues, and hard time on anybody especially my children, and the last thing in the world I would want to do is send them away anywhere. My parents loved me that was not enough, because no one was raising me. This place was made to help young girls to grow up into women.  And yeah it was a process of separating the women from the girls.  My experience there wasn't supposed to be easy, I was being sent to treatment, because I was not living life, I was dying.  

Maybe I shouldn't have children then because Being a teenage girl in this world is throughly uncomfortable. Though all I can talk about is my experience, being that I was safer and growing @ MMS.  And I think that a question that I would like to pose is what would have become of you if you weren't sent there?  I know for me that I definately would not be in college, perhaps dead, on the streets, with no dreams, and still know idea of how to ask for help.  

Not everyone has the backbone and fortitude to learn from this tough love based institution and come out better for having gone and Then there is the other outcome feeling abused and worse for having gone.  I beleive that I came out of this insitution better for having gone.

Though I have had to still have my own experience of life after MMS.  I have been angry and i have thought some things wrong about MMS.  Yeah I got thrown away by my family, and sent to montana for two years, no boys, no alcohol, and I felt like those two years were stolen in some way.  I had to work through this stuff after I graduated.  Left standing is that those two years were the most important two years out of my young adult life, and I learned the most, and grew the most when I was there.  I am still learning from my experience there, and agian I am not saying that I am on a pink cloud because @ MMS I learned some hard ass shit, like that my Mom was dying and I didn't want her to, my Dad had a drinking problem, I learned I was an alcoholic there, I learned that I had to live everyday to its fullest because needless to say we are all at risk for something, but I knew what I was at risk for the same thing my mirroring image, my mother is still currently dying of.  Facing my worst fears, issues, and needed restitution- was fucking hard, and its still hard, and there is nothing pink, or fluffy about it.Fluffy pink clouds have never been my experience in life, and i don't remember reality every being a pink cloud.

I also know and have stated earlier that MMS is changing and I beleive open to more changes and I think talking to John is the most important step that you can take in doing this.  

I want to state for whatever record this pertians to that there was absolutely no physical abuse, and there was no sexual abuse when I was there, and I have yet to hear of any direct accusation.

This is not about making anybody happy or pleasing anyone.  This is about me finding my own truth and really encouraging other to really search there souls, mind, and memories for theirs.

Doing my best to understand, and speak up
 Hannah
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2005, 08:39:00 PM »
Here, here!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2005, 11:57:00 PM »
Honestly I would have done much better without the school. I should have applied myself to volunteer work or something where could help people how are less fortunate than myself. That would have been an awesome experience rather than MMS screwing me over and actualy making me a social retard..and fearful of too many things.!
save your preaching for something else.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2005, 12:40:00 AM »
do you think you would have really applied yourself willingly, and independantly-- to doing community service with people less fortunate then yourself?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2005, 04:34:00 AM »
Many people do. Even young people. There are many options other than sending children away when they are faced with problems. I do believe there are times when intervention is needed such as when a child is suicidal or seriously drug addicted. But there are hospitals for such things. Kids shouldn't need to be sent to institutions where they lose contact with everyone in their lives, everyone they truly love. You can make new friends and learn to love new people but I certainly do not think it is healthy to remove children from their lives. Again, I understand the need for intervention at times, just not the need to send children thousands of miles away to remote places that are not licensed or regulated, that are not monitored, where people without proper credentials can practice possibly damaging therapies that they are not qualified to practice. Some of those can be downright dangerous to children, some leave lasting scars, as we have seen here.

There is a need for reform, it's obvious. There is a need for more regulation and more oversite. That's obvious too. Children have rights but somehow when their parents are willing to pay enough to have them locked up what rights are left for them? How can you exercise your rights when you are stuck out in the middle of no where with adults controlling your every single move, if they want to. They can make you do whatever they want. If they want you to live in a tent alone in the middle of no where, out there with the wolves and who knows what else, then make you build a fence for THEIR property, that's just not fair.

They can make girls sit outside in the middle of the night telling their innermost secrets that they should not be forced to reveal. Some are forced to say things that are not even true. That is where you will find the hostility here. At least that's where I see it. They lost themselves to these people who made them do things that no one should be forced to do. Then they had to do things to hurt their own friends. How can that be useful, helpful, therapeutic?

There is right and there is wrong. Many of the things that these girls have experiences if wrong. Period. There's no sugar-coating it, is there? No one is talking about wanting to live on a pink cloud. I doubt any of us do. But they had THEIR experiences that we hurtful and harmful and that are as real today as they were then.

I was abused as a child, though no one would admit it back then. In therapy I discussed it and worked through it. I have discussed it with friends and that has helped as well. These girls are doing that here and they should not be damned for it. Instead they should be receiving support for what they've experienced.

This has turned into a rediculous tug-of-war.

"Good experience - - - - - - - - Bad experience"

It should not be a tug-of-war. Some sensitivity here would be so nice. I read where Ginger talked about some of the things that go on in other posts on Fornits. I won't even read those because people get downright crazy in my book. Here, I don't feel anyone is crazy, just hurt and confused.

I think why people defend the ones with bad experiences is because they were harmed. They are here to talk about it and to try to work through it, it sounds like.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline hannah

  • Posts: 9
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2005, 12:23:00 PM »
I agree with that your experience needs to be supported, I support who ever you are. Its hard to support an anonymous bag with eyes on a computer.  What I want to support for all of the girls that are hurting is your feelings. I have read things on here about abuse I thouroghly don't agree with that, and having been there I have a say, because I experienced the same things.  

I was resentful at one point because I didn't see my Mom for 9 months and when I did she was a completely different person, she progressed in her disease, I was called into the office and told that I was leaving @ 4 am to go to Kalispel and then San Diego, because she was in the ICU (my parents live in NM at the time). This happened about 2 months before my first home visit was supposed to happen. I found myself in a familar world a changed person and my Mother changed as well.  She couldn't talk, could,t eat through her mouth anymore, she looked liked she belonged in the ICU in San Diego.  I was resentful towards the school because this happened in my life. My truth is that the reason I was in MMS had everything to do with my actions, it wasn't a mistake.  I was present and sober for my family the first time in my life. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done walking around the corner of the ICU and seeing her there, with my Father.  and ever since then I have been  stepping up to bat, with my family, and my Mother. Being resilient is a virtue I have always had but only tapped into @ MMS.  I have been a good daughter, I have no regrets from the past anymore about how I wasn't a good anything for so long. Because before I went to MMS, I thought I had real friends, I didn't as soon as I was out of money, drugs are alcohol, they didn't need me anymore.  I had lost how to be a daughter, a friend, and I had lost myself. If I hadn't been at the school when this had happened or had this place to go back to, I really don't think I would be sober anymore, I know I woudln't have relationships with my Dad.

I don't think I am engageing in a tug of war and I am not trying to be preachy I am telling you my experience and my observations of what is going on here and what happened @ MMS.  It has been almost 5 years since I went there, The two years that I spent there was so important.  I was of no use to my family and to tell you the truth I could hardly make my bed, and take care of a bunny my first year there.

What I see here is a bunch of hurt feelings, not concrete allogations of abuse. I especially don't see any harm I see hurt.  I hope that makes sense.

This is not black or White for me at all!  I don't think I have been filled with all good experience or all bad What I am trying to advocate is Where would you be without MMS? Ponder this please....

Your feelings are very important to me, please believe me.  I am doing my best through the screen, and the fact that I don't know who I am responding to 75% of the time is frustrating to me.I don't understand what we have to hide and who we are hiding form.

I love everyone....You are all important and irraplaceble to me.

I hope that we can come together and be together @ MMS this Summer! Because it wouldn't be worth it without my sisiters.

as much love and support and good thought being sent your way.-Hannah
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2005, 05:12:00 PM »
Hannah-

The abuse that we are talking about is:

1.  Verbal abuse by staff  i.e. in group, on physical challenges.  (I personally remember a staff member "mooing" at a heavier girl who could not ride her bike up a hill and making her cry and even then not stopping. Is that not an abuse of power?  Girls being forced to drink quarts of water at every meal and then not being able to go to the restroom, sometimes wetting thier pants because they were told they were lying they didn't really have to go.)  Lots more specific examples where that came from.

2.  Using their power to manipulate young girls into believing that they have multiple addictions when in fact they do not have anything of the sort.  Is that not abuse?  When I left, and I know a lot of others can attest to this, I thought I was and alcoholic, drug addict, eating disordered, sex addict, kleptomaniac.  None of which I remotely struggle with today.  Do you realize how many years it took to sort myself out after that?  Don't you think a qualified therapist should have diagnosed me rather then a recovering alcoholic?  Is that not abuse/mal-practice?

3.  Living in fear everyday that you are there of what might happen to you that day. You are at the mercy of a staff thats having a bad day, or a girl that is out to get you or "call you out." That a staff member might decide to scream at you, or you end up on intervention sleeping in the snow in a tent.  Most good programs have clearly defined levels you do this, you get this, no questions  about it.  It was like living with an alcoholic parent.  No predictability on how you would be treated that day ever.

Now those are three major points that everyone in this forum can relate to, can we not?  We could go on and on. Are these not some examples of abuse?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2005, 06:31:00 PM »
i agree with everything u just said
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline aileen

  • Posts: 18
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.myspace.com/aileenchu
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2005, 07:36:00 PM »
Before I was sent away, I did volunteer work. I also did many drugs and had lots of sex which hurt me and I knew it and I did a lot of stupid shit. I saw a therapist, but she was crap and it was hard to find a good one. The one I am seeing now is great, but if I had gone to her at that point in my life (before MMS), I would never have gotten anywhere.

I was taken to the local hospital where they had a mental hospital and a drug rehab. They evaluated me and asked me to join a program there. I said no, because I didn't want to waste my time when I could be out getting high.

Some of my friends were offered either a hospital stay or an arrest so they chose the former. Others were forced to go to Linden Oaks. These kids told me they all came out more messed up. They were just kept on drugs the entire time and didn't do much besides meet other druggies and make potential drug deals.

Maybe if the trauma had occurred sooner to when my parents finally started trying therapy, it would have helped. But everything had been kept so pent up inside me I didn't even know how to begin to open up to facing it. I was angry, and people who tried to help me were enemies. Even my druggie friends told me I needed help and was on the way to burnout and they were worried. I got so pissed and scared the crap out of them they apologized profusely and felt as if they did something wrong. And I listened to my friends more than anybody else... and least of all my parents or anybody in authority who tried to help.

I'm not saying I condone the hurt some people believe they were caused by MMS. I know I needed a drastic intervention of the sort, being sent far away, etc. And even then I tried to run away and get back to my friends so I could use. I was so desperate to escape feeling that anything short of that type of intervention would have been useless. I was very good at getting my own way and I would have outlasted the treatment at the hospital which has not helped any of the many people I knew who went there, and I would have figured out how to run away from any place closer especially with contact with the outside world, besides my parents.

I needed wilderness, being sent to some godforsaken place in Texas... it helped because I knew there was no way out (not to mention the weird African wildlife)... but even afterwards, when I had begun to change, it was not long enough or tough enough and I could have easily gone back to my old ways.

I may have lost my point somewhere in there. Maybe not all of the girls needed to be there. And those girls should have been weeded out when their parents applied. But I know I needed that type of intervention (out in the middle of nowhere, no outside contact, etc.) in order to even BEGIN to get my attention.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline aileen

  • Posts: 18
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.myspace.com/aileenchu
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2005, 07:55:00 PM »
Oh I also did agree with some of the things you said, anon.

I don't agree that taking a kid out of what they know for a couple years to help them is bad, but my parents moved while I was away and now it is very hard for me to find a footing, especially coming back so raw (partially my fault because I left without graduating). I agree that it is hard for children to be removed from their lives... but I also think you need to look at what kind of life you're removing them from. I even think if I had gone back home to Chicago after I had left, I would be smoking pot if not more by now. So I don't know... it's debatable... and it all depends on the individual and their situation.

I gained a lot from the therapy at MMS, and I haven't been able to find a therapist as helpful as some of the ones we had there (I specifically had Jim Rogers, but Gary and John helped me too ... I had a couple groups with John because I wasn't doing well).

I think what helped me a lot was that I was pretty forthcoming. I have never liked to keep things back, so it was not hard for me. I know that when you have been sexually abused, you need to talk about it, all the details no matter how disgusting. And it is not a shameful thing, or it should not be, and if the person felt shamed, either it came from inner beliefs or the environment (the group, or the therapist which I doubt).

And secrets are rarely good. There is shame or, worse, manipulation/control involved with secrecy, and that is a lot of what fucked up my family and myself. I can understand if they made them talk about random secrets that were not relevant, but I never saw that when I was there.

I went to MMS around 2002-2004. Maybe the school had changed for the better since you'd left, and it is always and still changing. I know I still had problems with wanting approval, but that is in many ways a part of life, and it is healthy in some ways because adolescent morality is based on approval from peers.

I can understand how people would feel hurt by things that happened to them and I read some accounts that left me saddened because a girl was harmed. I understand your points, and I may sound like I am championing the school (I am in part because they helped me) but I am just looking at the other side of what you were talking about. I do that, sometimes too much... I look at the other side of what I'm talking about even and can never form an opinion because I do that too much.

And sorry if I sound argumentative, I don't know if I do... I just lapse into that sometimes because I like to argue too much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2005, 09:40:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-04 14:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

When ever I have something I need to look at in my life and I find my self righteously angry about it and blaming someone else for my life-I have to ask my self and sit with this question, "After all didn't I set the ball rolling?"


Is the answer ever "No"? Or is everything your fault all the time?

The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2005, 09:54:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-03 16:20:00, hannah wrote:

Maybe I shouldn't have children then because Being a teenage girl in this world is throughly uncomfortable. Though all I can talk about is my experience, being that I was safer and growing @ MMS. And I think that a question that I would like to pose is what would have become of you if you weren't sent there? I know for me that I definately would not be in college, perhaps dead, on the streets, with no dreams, and still know idea of how to ask for help.

First off, no one here or anywhere can ever know that. I can guess what would likely have happened in my life if my mom had never joined that cult. And, frankly, my prospects were pretty damned good. And I can tell you that the suicide and general failure rate among people "helped" by attack therapy is extremely high compared to the rest of the population.

Quote
Not everyone has the backbone and fortitude to learn from this tough love based institution and come out better for having gone and Then there is the other outcome feeling abused and worse for having gone. I beleive that I came out of this insitution better for having gone.


Well I believe you came out of that institution a sanctimonious, self rightious prig. Backbone and fortitude? So everyone who's unhappy w/ the way these people treated them is flawed? If only they had your backbone and fortitude they'd clearly see that they are the worthless losers and MMS is the only salvation for their sorry asses?

And you wonder why people get upset about the things you say?  :roll:

The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2005, 10:10:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-04 09:23:00, hannah wrote:

 I really don't think I would be sober anymore, I know I woudln't have relationships with my Dad.


Is that because he doesn't support your program?

Hanna, you really shouldn't be carrying around all this guilt. Think about it. What you describe is, believe it or not, a normal teenaged outlook. Teenagers are supposed to be self absorbed, wreckless and adventurous. Sometimes, they've even been known to go way wrong for awhile. That you weren't able to be the grown up when your mom got sick is not a horrible dysfunction. That you grew up at MMS is just tragic. You would have grown up anyway, but it might have been a whole lot more pleasant and you may even still have had a dad.

Ya' just never know about what might have been.

To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it

--G. Norman Collie

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2005, 10:17:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-04 16:36:00, aileen wrote:

I may have lost my point somewhere in there.


Yeah, you did. Looks like you got caught up in all the cult lingo and mindset and sort of dazed there for a few. That's what the cult experts call "floating".

Maybe your olddruggie friends weren't all that bad and maybe the sex wasn't always of the hurtful variety? Nobody runs away from the direction of Seattle to get drugs, Hannah. Maybe there was something special about some of those particular druggies?

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12992
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://wwf.Fornits.com/
Where would you be without MMS?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2005, 10:41:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-04 16:55:00, aileen wrote:

I don't agree that taking a kid out of what they know for a couple years to help them is bad,

No, we're not talking about a regular boarding school w/ phone access, regular breaks for hollidays and summers, mail, etc. We're not talking about taking a kid out of what they know. We're talking about totally shutting a kid off from everything and everyone they have ever known.

Quote
but my parents moved while I was away and now it is very hard for me to find a footing, especially coming back so raw (partially my fault because I left without graduating).

What a major mind fuck! Mine too. It backfired, though. I just went home. And all the better because my mom wasn't there actively sabotaging me anymore.

Quote
I agree that it is hard for children to be removed from their lives... but I also think you need to look at what kind of life you're removing them from. I even think if I had gone back home to Chicago after I had left, I would be smoking pot if not more by now.

Which would make you just like around half of your contemporaries. So what?

Quote
So I don't know... it's debatable... and it all depends on the individual and their situation.



I gained a lot from the therapy at MMS, and I haven't been able to find a therapist as helpful as some of the ones we had there (I specifically had Jim Rogers, but Gary and John helped me too ... I had a couple groups with John because I wasn't doing well).

What type of therapy do they use at MMS? Are you talking about sleeping out in the snow? Or about forcing little girls to talk about sex in a room full of people? Or something else? I've always wondered what in the world a real therapist would do in an institution like that.

Quote

I think what helped me a lot was that I was pretty forthcoming. I have never liked to keep things back, so it was not hard for me. I know that when you have been sexually abused, you need to talk about it, all the details no matter how disgusting. And it is not a shameful thing, or it should not be, and if the person felt shamed, either it came from inner beliefs or the environment (the group, or the therapist which I doubt).

That is absolutely false! Reliving a traumatic experience again and again is not necessarily therapeutic. Certainly not under the hostile kind of circumstances you ladies have described. It's normal and healthy to feel shameful about sexual activity. That's why rape is such a mundfuck. That's why it breaks people. And thats why the Program always, in every instance, induces shame and humiliation, especially on the newcommers. Just look around, don't mind the walking wounded, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Quote

And secrets are rarely good. There is shame or, worse, manipulation/control involved with secrecy, and that is a lot of what fucked up my family and myself. I can understand if they made them talk about random secrets that were not relevant, but I never saw that when I was there.

No, sometimes secrets are not good. But what's the therapeutic value of having to tell a room full of other allegedly troubled girls all of your most personally business?

Quote
I understand your points, and I may sound like I am championing the school (I am in part because they helped me) but I am just looking at the other side of what you were talking about. I do that, sometimes too much... I look at the other side of what I'm talking about even and can never form an opinion because I do that too much.

Some decisions are worth a taking a little time to mull over.

Quote

And sorry if I sound argumentative, I don't know if I do... I just lapse into that sometimes because I like to argue too much."


No, you don't sound argumentative or combative. It's ok to debate. It's not a dysfuction or a sign of lack of backbone and fortitude, as they say. I bet you're not half as flawed as you seem to think.

Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes