A cult?

[Anonymous]

please don't take it off the board!  This is the one thread I read.  Buzz...thank you for explaining things.  Your words are getting me to re open the Bible.  Keep posting.  Niles, you've asked some stuff I've wondered.  Keep the debate going.

[BuzzKill]

Well anon, that's fine with me. I was only concerned some might resent what they view as "Preaching" - but they don't have to read it if they don't want.

I am just popping in for a sec between various other activates. Niles - I will work up a more point by point reply - but for now I thought you and maybe others might want a few links on this subject to browse around on.

I haven't had a chance to really look at yours Niles - but I will.

Here are a few you might want to look over:

http://www.levitt.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=14

Teaching forum on Christian doctrine by a Messianic Jew

http://www.lamblion.com/Articles00.php

Prophetic articles on various subjects

http://www.apologetics.org/welcome.html

 Welcome page:

?A very popular error: having the courage of one's convictions; rather it is a matter of having the courage for an attack on one's convictions!!?

A shrewd insight?from the great atheist, Friedrich Nietzsche. Here, the great thinker has crafted a principle aimed at piercing the smug slumber of unexamined beliefs. Donning the robe of Socrates, he calls for self-examination at the deepest level?down even to the bedrock of cherished assumptions and beliefs about ultimate reality. Every man and woman?theist, monist, naturalist, or nihilist--is exhorted (in the language of philosophy) to boldly expose one?s own metaphysics to possible falsification.

[BuzzKill]

I would like to ask you about something off subject.
Would you please write or Pm me?

[Timoclea]

Just as an aside, we Wiccans don't proselytize--precisely because we could do harm by taking someone off their path if their religion is already helping them be a better person--but for those of you who do, isn't it a little difficult to try to convince someone that your beliefs are better than theirs if you have no real idea *what* they believe?

I'm not saying you should learn about my religion, heck, if you don't want to proselytize me, I'm a-okay peachy with that.

I'm just saying it's weird to have someone god at me and try to debate my morals and ethics based on their assumptions of what those may be---where their assumptions just have no real relationship to my beliefs and morals and ethics at all.


Some of these posts are like watching someone try to convince a Buddhist that animal sacrifice is wrong, or try to convince a Muslim that they really shouldn't be polytheistic.  Um, hello?  Not very effective.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

(Those aren't mean laughs, it really is funny.)

Timoclea

Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is.

 


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/068483068X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>MARGARET MITCHELL

[Timoclea]

Or, for those that haven't done comparative religions, like trying to convince a Christian lying is wrong or a Mormon that they really shouldn't drink caffeine. :smile:

T.

All religion is dumb. It's one big story they're feeding you so you'll  behave on Earth. If there is a god, then he's a prick.
--Howard Stern, American radio personality

[Timoclea]

Okay, that signature quote was random.  I really didn't pick it.

T.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Nihilanthic]

The ENTIRE basis of religion is Faith, Buzz. Period.

Theres a leap involved because it very much is circular(logic). You cant prove a religion! If you could PROVE any religion, thats what we'd all be following!

However, you, being a believer, see it as totally true in your eyes. I cant "Just believe". Its not that its a choice I didnt want to make, its that I cant just believe in the bible anymore than I can believe in a damn seminar.

Edit: I can believe if I see something happen miraculously. I managed to clog up the radiator in the car we were delivering 250+ sunday newspapers (probably the thermostat) when I put some stop-leak into the coolant tank because its IMPOSSIBLE to put it into the radiator cap ( there isnt one) on the car. We had steam billowing out, yet the tank water was still cold. Yet, the car *HAD* To make it.

So, I figured why not, I'd pray that it would work, and if it did work I'd admit it here. Here I am, and it worked, so yeah. There you go :smile:

However, it still doesnt change the fact that the bible was written by men and has a lot of bull in it :razz:

...it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds..

--Samuel Adams

[BuzzKill]

Well Niles, I see little point in continuing the debate if you are so adamant that nothing will change your mind.

If you don't want to believe you wont. Its just that simple. But you did mention you wish you could believe, b/c if you could, if would give you a sense of peace - and I assure you that is true. But there is no way to breach such a solid wall of denial. You say you would have to have a miracle; Perhaps your on the road to Damascus. . . Time will tell. I should warn you tho - when you demand miracles, you might get miracles, provided by the Great Liar to bring you more tightly into his grasp.

I logged on thinking I might look over your links - but now I think why bother? Its not like I'm much interested or troubled by skeptical thinking. I am very familiar with most of it anyway. Many of my best friends have been intelligent and articulate atheist and we have been over these things many times. The point being - I am familiar with the arguments and not likely to run across anything I haven't grappled with already. And you have no real interest in what I might say.

I hope you will take the time to actually read the gospels, in their entirety, for your self; and you might also find it enlightening to read the letters to the Romans and Hebrews. I have never approved of Proof text, taken a verse here and a verse there. I believe this leads both believer and skeptic astray. The verses lose their full meaning when taken out of context and can lose their meaning all together.

I do have a thought or two on your concern about the 'I am coming soon' prophecies. Once again, let me say, as far as God is concerned, the return of the King, is coming soon indeed. Also, bear in mind the message given to the disciples was not Just for the disciples. It was meant for the church - the entire church age. The church was given many signs to look for in regard to the second coming; so we might be better able to judge when it becomes "soon" from our perspective. There is a very definite time table which begins when the anti Christ enters the temple and declares himself god. You needent look for the Second Coming until after that event.

The rapture, on the other hand, could take place when ever God decides; and it could be literally at any moment. This is why the believer is told to Look up and be watchful and to keep in mind they could be called home at any moment. Of corse - this is true of those dying as well - As you never know when that will occur.

There may be a way to know the time of year that the rapture will occur. . . I find the following very interesting.
There are several different Kinds of prophecy in the Bible. I spoke already of prophetic symbols - but there is also symbolic prophecy. For instance, the Feast of Israel all have a prophetic meaning. For those interested, the following is a link to an article about it, with a quote from it following:

http://www.lamblion.com/articles/prophe ... ews-10.php

The Prophetic Significance of the Feasts
What the Jewish people did not seem to realize is that all of the feasts were also symbolic types. In other words, they were prophetic in nature, each one pointing in a unique way to some aspect of the life and work of the promised Messiah.

1) Passover - Pointed to the Messiah as our Passover lamb whose blood would be shed for our sins. Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover, at the same time that the lambs were being slaughtered for the Passover meal that evening.

2) Unleavened Bread - Pointed to the Messiah's sinless life, making Him the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Jesus' body was in the grave during the first days of this feast, like a kernel of wheat planted and waiting to burst forth as the bread of life.

3) First Fruits - Pointed to the Messiah's resurrection as the first fruits of the righteous. Jesus was resurrected on this very day, which is one of the reasons that Paul refers to him in I Corinthians 15:20 as the "first fruits from the dead."

4) Harvest or Pentecost - (Called Shavuot today.) Pointed to the great harvest of souls, both Jew and Gentile, that would come into the kingdom of God during the Church Age. The Church was actually established on this day when the Messiah poured out the Holy Spirit and 3,000 souls responded to Peter's first proclamation of the Gospel.

The long interval of three months between Harvest and Trumpets pointed to the current Church Age, a period of time that was kept as a mystery to the Hebrew prophets in Old Testament times.

That leaves us with the three fall feasts which are yet to be fulfilled in the life and work of the Messiah. Because Jesus literally fulfilled the first four feasts and did so on the actual feast days, I think it is safe to assume that the last three will also be fulfilled and that their fulfillment will occur on the actual feast days. We cannot be certain how they will be fulfilled, but my guess is that they most likely have the following prophetic implications:

5) Trumpets - (Called Rosh Hashana today.) Points to the Rapture when the Messiah will appear in the heavens as a Bridegroom coming for His bride, the Church. The Rapture is always associated in Scripture with the blowing of a loud trumpet (I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:52)

6) Atonement - (Called Yom Kippur today.) Points to the day of the Second Coming of Jesus when He will return to earth. That will be the day of atonement for the Jewish remnant when they "look upon Him whom they have pierced," repent of their sins, and receive Him as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10 and Romans 11:1-6, 25-36).

7) Tabernacles - (Called Sukkot today.) Points to the Lord's promise that He will once again tabernacle with His people when He returns to reign over all the world from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-7).



*******

It's an article worth reading in its entirety if the subject intrigues you at all.

Timocela - my Wiccan friend :smile:

I don't pretend to know much about Wicca. The only Wiccans besides yourself that I have known, have mostly been young women that seem to be "playing witch". I have read numerous articles - but I don't know that any two of them agreed on more than a point or two. I have the impression that Wicca is for the practitioner, pretty much what they want it to be -  sort of fluid and open to change. I admit this is just an impression. Another commonality I have noticed is a great prevalence for occultic activity among Wiccans. But, this might be a result of playing witch, an not actually part of your belief system. I don't know. But as a Christian - the occultic aspect of Wicca is what makes it objectionable. Not that I mind that you are Wiccan - but I couldn't be. I have read that Wiccans worship Lillith, the wife of the great horned god (thats what the article said)  And Nature, somewhat like the Druids. In any event, it seems to be pagan; and this is not something a Christian can give a nod and a wink to. My opinion is that while Wicca might be something you believe helps you be a better person, it can not save your soul. Only Jesus can do that for you, and you will not find Him through any occult or pagan practice.

[Anonymous]

What about this stuff.  How can all that just be coincidence?

There are many prophecies about his birth, life, resurrection that were written more than 400 years before it happened.

"Jesus wasn't the only Jew to be born into the tribe of Juday, in the city of Bethlehem, and buried in a rich man's tomb. Is it possible to believe that some of the details of Jesus' life
just happened to coincide with all those Old Testament prophecies?

For the answer to that question, we need only turn to the science of statistics and probabilities. Professor Peter W. Stoner, in an analysis that was carefully reviewed and pronounced to be sound by the American Scientific Aflliation, states that the probablility of just eight prophecies being fulfilled in one person is 1 in 10 to the 17th power. That is 1 in 100000000000000000.

If you were to take that many silver dollars and spread them across the state of Texas, they would not only cover the entire state but also form a pile of coins two feet deep! Now, take one more silver dollar, mark it with a big red X, toss it into that pile, and stir the whole pile thoroughly.

Then blindfold yourself, and starting at El Paso on the western border of the state, walk the length and breadth of that enormous state, from Amarillo in the panhandle to Laredo on the Rio Grande all the way to Galveston on the Gulf of Mexico, stooping just once along the way to pick up a single silver dollar out of that two foot deep pile. Then take off your blindfold and look at the silver dollar in your hand. What are the chances that you would pick the marked coin out of a pile of silver dollars the size of Tx? The same chance that one person could have fulfilled just eight messianic prophecies in one life time!" this quote is from Josh McDowell's book Beyond Belief to Conviction.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-08 09:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What about this stuff.  How can all that just be coincidence?

Well, because none of us living today were there at the time. People who want to believe in the prophecies believe that it all happened just so. But take into account that, even though they lived in the same region/culture and very near the same time when this particular Christ story played out, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John's stories contradict each other in significant ways and Paul sits down on all of them. Never mind the other John, that peyote munching radical. He tells an entirely different story.

Again, I just wish you people would open up a psychic hotline and leave the kids out of it. You're welcome to your fantasies and to turn a buck from your fellow believers. But please, leave the kids out of it. They're just children. Go pick on someone your own size!

Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know he is.
--Jean Anouilh, French dramatist and playwright

[Anonymous]

Uh...no.

I've been Wiccan for seventeen years.

Wicca *is* a neopagan religion, and Wiccans *do* practice magic.  But "magic" for us has a jargon definition as "the art of causing change in accord with will" so the term includes a lot--everything from hypnosis to what might best be described as prayer with props.

Wicca is extremely fluid in the belief systems included, but the three points on which the overwhelming majority of Wiccans agree, and would consider anyone who does not agree who calls what they do "Wicca" to be just incorrect, is the Rede, the Law, and the Lady.  Almost all Wiccans who are seriously religious and have been Wiccan for any appreciable length of time would hold to the long version of the Rede, which actually includes the Threefold Law.  All Wiccans revere at least one female deity.  All Wiccans but the Dianics, and they're a smallish minority, revere male and female deities in pairs and *most* at least in some sense hold with the principle that all female deities are aspects of The Lady, and all male deities are aspects of The Lord, and the Lord and Lady are both aspects of a unified divine Source or Essence of some sort.  It is both true and false to say that most Wiccans are polytheistic.  Many if not most Wiccans look at the divine as too big for the human mind to possibly comprehend in its entirety and the aspects as a way of looking at the divine that the divine, the Gods, accept for the sake of dealing with the limitations of the human mind.  Most Wiccans would find that an acceptable way of stating a complicated concept and a complicated theology, even if it is not their personal favorite analogy.

I suppose there are a few Wiccans who might occasionally use Lillith as the particular face of the Goddess invoked in a particular ritual they wrote themselves for a particular celebration, but she's just not terribly popular.  The Horned God is, but is a metaphorical representation of the phenomenon of many medium to large game animals having horns and is therefore generally associated with the hunt and metaphorical thanks for food, just as corn and grain and certain trees are metaphorically associated with the male divine principle (the Oak King and the Holly King), and fruit and wine are typically associated with the Lady.  Requests for bounty of the simple sort in daily life, and thanks for same, are very important parts of our interaction with the divine.

The closest Christian analog I can think of is your prayers of thanks before you eat.

We give thanks, too, it's just our regular timing for doing so is different.

Theologically, Wicca might be best thought of as a theological extension of Neo-Platonism with philosophical lessons incorporated from Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism.

I've talked theology with Hindus before and even though the specifics of practice and names of deities differed, our theology was similar enough that we could smile and nod and say right, right, right---and the specifics of practice in both religions are secondary to the general philosophical framework.

Wiccans differ from Hindus and Buddhists in some of the fine points of reincarnation, karma, and the ultimate goal/purpose of being here.  It would be *close* to accurate to say that the general Wiccan goal is to become something largely analagous to a bodhisatva or guide, rather than personal nirvana.  Most Hindus' or Buddhists' goal is to achieve perfect compassion or enlightenment and get off the wheel.  Most Wiccans' goal is to achieve a form of enlightenment particular to us, not easily put into words, stay on the wheel (with perhaps occasional Summerland recuperative breaks), and smooth the path for others.

Many of us believe you're on the wheel, too, but don't know it.  We don't try to save you, because our faith tells us that there's nothing to be saved *from*.  Well, except for the inevitable consequences of harmful action, which we strongly encourage others not to incur in the first place.

The Tao that can be told is not the Tao.

Wiccans can generally empathize and heavily agree with that sentiment.  To us, it's obvious that any religion that can be fully described in words is missing something significant.

You obviously take our beliefs to be much more fluid than they are.  While there's a lot of room for individuals to differ on any particular belief other than the core three, there is overwhelming overlap on the general body of belief.  It's a bit like the way Christianity can differ a very great deal depending on which denomination you're looking at.  Compare the Catholics to the Coptics to the Gnostics to the Episcopalians to the Christian Identity folks to the Mormons.  *Big* differences.

Most of the Wiccans who fall far outside the norm are either very new and very ignorant, or faddists who are playing at the religion, or, well, just oddballs within a minority religion that none of us are going to disturb on *their* path as long as it's helping them be a better person.  Most of the Wiccans who fall far outside the norm are also self-initiates who have had very little contact with the larger Wiccan community, who got their religion, more or less, off the back of a cracker box.  Many of them are very sincere (at least for the moment), and very, very ignorant.

Part of that is we're victims of our own "success"--even though we don't proselytize, some people have obviously found what they've heard of of our religion relevant and metaphorically signed themselves up without telling anyone---usually because they couldn't *find* a (reasonable) teacher.  It's a bit like Scots-Irish immigrants to the colonial and early-American US--their heritage was Presbyterian, but to be a Pres. minister you had to be ordained, and there weren't enough ordained Pres. ministers to go around, and you didn't have to be ordained to be a Baptist minister, so a lot of backwoods Scots-Irish Presbyterians ended up Baptist.  With some corresponding "issues" in doctrine over the years, locally, related to their lack of formal education in Divinity.

It looks more amorphous than it is because we're not rejecting the ignorant, but those of us who've been around awhile can't teach the newcomers fast enough---and some of the faddists just don't want to be taught, or they aren't located where we are, etc.  It can be hard for them to find us because very, very few of us looking for students--it's just not what we do.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

Hrms.  Maybe I stated the Presbyterian/Baptist thing badly.

To be a Pres. minister you had to go to college and have formal divinity schooling to *get* ordained, and Baptists didn't have to.  I don't know how common some form of ordination was among Baptists despite lack of formal schooling.

I know large parts of the Church of Christ just don't  "do" ordination.  My dad's retirement job is Preacher at a local country church of that denomination, just because he's pious, educated, and a good speaker.  And it helps that he's a local boy who made good and came back home to retire.

Some Wiccans do a form of ordination, many don't.  Roughly the difference between "high church" and "low church."  Gardnerians roughly equal Episcopalians in level of formality and orthodoxy, Eclectics roughly equal small town non-denominational.  Very orthodox Gardnerians frequently do not consider non-Gardnerians "really Wiccan" but simply generic Neo-Pagan.  More mainstream Gardnerians consider the initiates of the more established traditions, or initiates of Gardnerian offshoots with a Gardnerian "lineage," Wiccan, but not self-initiates.  Or measure self-initiates by how closely their practices adhere to the original Gardnerian standard--or at least the published portions of it.  Some of it's snobbery, but for some of it, theologically and doctrinally speaking, they have a point.

If you really care about knowing Which Witch is Which, the standard reference is _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (yes, the same one from NPR).  Unless there's a new edition out, it's a bit dated, but still basically relevant.  It lists traditions (Wiccan version of denominations), their rough genesis, and rough doctrine and theology.

Timoclea

[Nihilanthic]

Buzz, belief is no conscious choice. Delusion is, however. Its how I am, mentally. Who made me this way, hmm? Riddle me that.

I either believe or I dont, but its not like it would be effective to act like I do if I doubted, becuase according to the big rule book in the sky I'd still go to hell.

Do not confuse critical thought and inability to believe with a desire or choice NOT to. I don't feel like listening to double speak from a christian when I get it from programmies on a regular basis.

As per your reply... you basically dodged anything I had to say about it. "I logged on thinking I might look over your links - but now I think why bother? Its not like I'm much interested or troubled by skeptical thinking."

Thanks...  :grin:

Impiety: Your irreverence toward my deity.
--Ambrose Bierce

[cat girl]

meow?

[BuzzKill]

//I appreciate your effort, but ultimately what you did just isnt good enough.//

All I meant by my last post was this very thing. I will not be able to do "good enough" for you Niles - no matter how hard I try.

I may not have given you a point by point, but its not fair to say I dodged (tho I knew you would) I answered the questions posed by the verses you listed - I just didn't do a point by point.

After your earlier post, I felt making the effort was pointless. And make no mistake - it is an effort. It does not come easy for me, and as I suggested before, to give you a detailed point by point would take me all morning and probably afternoon as well. Its too much effort  when I can't see it making the slightest difference.

For instance, I did explain we are no longer living under the law.  But you keep going back to the question of the Law. This was all debated and settled back in the first century by Paul and Peter. For more on this, see the Book of Acts, and Romans.

The so far unfulfilled prophecies Will be fulfilled - just as exactly as the ones I quoted you, and the hundreds of others I didn't list.  If there are some we don't understand - we will someday. Once upon a time; and not so long ago; the vast majority of Christendom had no idea what the re-gathering prophecies were about. They Couldn't mean what they said, b/c all that was totally impossible. They meant just what they said - and now Christians the world over understand them very clearly.

If you are really interested in any of this - I have provided you with the resources to learn as much as you like, and from teachers far more able than I.

As for your skeptic links - again, I was willing to look it over and try and tell you what I thought - but I have come to feel, that too,  would be pointless; and why waste my time? I AM familiar with the arguments and I am not impressed - just as you are not impressed by my responses.

Faith is important Niles. God puts tremendous value on the Faith of His people. Great things can be accomplished by Faith. But He knows about those who need more than faith, and He has supplied them with plenty of proof.  Maybe what you need to do is read your Bible and ask Him for proof.

Who made you the way you are? Well of corse God made you Niles - but He lets you make of it what you will. He has clearly blessed you with many gifts. If you have a thorn or two in your side - well, don't we all?  

This, I think you got backwards:

belief is no conscious choice. Delusion is, however.

Timocela - thank you for the explanation of Wicca. I really did find it interesting. I'm not surprised at you and the Hindu having so much common thought. I would have guessed as much. But your faith and mine are at opposite ends, and there is no middle ground for us. On at least one thing we can approach agreement - God is far to great for the mind of man to comprehend. Of corse, as a Christian, I would argue that this is why we have such a need for the Messiah - to help us understand God and to heal our relationship with Him. But even so, it is far beyond our abilities to comprehend the reality of God - there are mysteries, and there may always be. Paul tells us that for now we see, as threw a glass, darkly; but that one day we shall see Him and then we will see clearly - so I think many of the things that endlessly puzzle us now, will someday be made clear. I expect many lightbulb moments.