A cult?

[Anonymous]

I mean, shouldn't a perfect god be able and willing to live up to a *higher* standard of behavior, and not merely for thirty years or so, than he or she expects from others?

I don't think I want a god who can't be a nicer person than that.

I've got better things to do than sit around making excuses for the very bad behavior of flawed gods.

T.

[Anonymous]

your sincere beliefs will not change truth.  You are sincerely wrong.  You don't get to pick and choose like a shopping trip.  There is only one God, but there are two places for eternity, Heaven and hell.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-05-04 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:

"There is only one God, but there are two places for eternity, Heaven and hell."

:scared: :flame:  :silly:

[BuzzKill]

// What I am saying is, it is ignorant and small-minded to think that the bible is the *only* way to know God, and that Jesus is the *only* way to God, and that the bible is the *only* way to know Jesus. //

Well then Bandit, you think Jesus, all the apostles and Paul are ignorant and small minded.  I disagree. I think they gave us the Truth - God is God - and the scriptures are His Living Word.  If God is God, then there are no other gods - and no other way by which men can be saved than by His grace.

// My relationship with "God" became strongest when I stopped reading the bible and learned about other philosophies, //

"God"? Which god? There are many entities that are very happy to have you mistake them for God - but they are imposters leading you astray. Only God is God.

//and I became close to Jesus when I take care of people (which is why I became a nurse), and also when I started studying literature (found outside the bible). //

Entirely possible. But is also possible you have grown close to a false Christ. In light of your other comments, this would be my guess.

Deb:
// And prophets have been wrong,//
No, not the Biblical prophets. It either happed just as they said - or is about to happen. There is much disagreement over how to inturperate the various latter days prophecies - but I think the plain sense makes sense. Every thing about the life, ministry and death of Jesus happened exactly as the Prophets said it would - and I think the same will be true for the Second Coming. Others disagree. I think they are in for a surprise.

// or made suggestions that were appropriate for a given time in history.//

This is true. They often gave short term prophecies having to do with current events. Their unfailing accuracy in the short term matters, is what designated them as Prophets, and is why their words have been so carefully protected and carefully preserved - even tho they themselves were often the most hated men in the region. They often had some very "ignorant and small minded" messages for the kings and peoples they were speaking to. But they passed the test of a Prophet of God. They were correct in every instance when they spoke for God. Their words, when speaking for God, are Holy and will unfailingly come to pass.


 //And many have interpreted 'the word' in such a way as to use it for justification to hurt other people. //

True. But this is not God's doing. It is what happens when people seek to bend the Word to their will - they end up deceived by the Great Liar.

// The only 'word' is the golden rule. Treat others as you would have them treat you. If everyone possessed respect for self and others, including the non human inhabitants of the planet, it would be a very pleasant place to live. Might even look like the garden of Eden. //

Well, it is not the only word - but it is important - and someday Deb - the world will look like Eden.

 Timoclea  - well Wiccans will talk like that :wink:
Really, maybe you should give some thought to the difference between God and His creation. God need not live up to your (or my) expectations! If you don't understand something (disagree with God) maybe you ought to take it to Him and see if He can help you understand or at least have Peace with it. Or, you can continue to try and turn the tables, and attempt to make God accountable to you - tho I don't believe you will be so bold when meeting face to face.

[bandit1978]

What makes you so certain that your Christian ideas of the afterlife, the divine, and this one compilation of writings are the *one truth*

Again, if you want to be on that narrow path, fine.  But you are really in no position to judge others' paths.

And again-  "I believe in God, I just give him more credit thant that"  -Bill Maher

[Anonymous]

Look, just because an extremely powerful jerk can scare you half to death, to the point you wouldn't say boo to a goose, that doesn't make him not a jerk.

I was a Christian until I actually sat down and read the Bible.  I read the Old Testament---you know, the parts they rarely quote in sermons or Sunday school?

Your god is a monster.

Maybe I *wouldn't* be brave enough to say it to his face because if he exists he's a big enough and powerful enough and mean enough bully to scare the crap out of anyone.

But nothing you can say will make your god a nice person.  *If* he exists:

He's *still* going to be the same psychopathic bastard who murdered Uzza for trying to keep his toy tent from tipping over.

He's still going to be the same total creep who tortured Job just because Job liked him and then acted like new kids could *ever* make up for a parent's grief at the monstrous, premeditated, malicious, needless slaughter of the old ones.

He's still going to be the same nitpicky bastard who told an obnoxious half-truth, designed to mislead, to the first man and woman there were--this guy couldn't stay truthful for a single generation.

And then Ananias and Saphira told a stupid lie to make themselves look good and he murdered them on the spot for it.

Among other things, he's a horrible hypocrite.

Maybe, if he exists, he *is* so scary I wouldn't say any of this to his face, but *if* he exists and *if* the Bible is true, he's a psychopathic bastard.

He's not responsible to *me* for him being a psychopathic bastard.

There's just no conceivable reason for me thinking living forever and ever with such a capricious monster would be a *good* deal.

If your god exists, as depicted in your book, it's a lose-lose situation and the only good in the world is the good we ourselves make, so I might as well get busy making it.

You, or your god if he's out there, can bully people all you want---but that doesn't make him "good".

And any god that's good only by definition is one I've simply got no use for.

Timoclea

[Nihilanthic]

"Buzz, the bible says to stone recalcitrant Children! The bible says its OK to sell your daughter into slavery! The bible also has ton of laws about diet, sanitary laws about mensturation and nocturnal emissions, and clothing.... that are not followed!

Why do you pick and choose what you follow?"

I said that a few pages ago and I still dont have an answer for that, from anyone.

Whats the deal? I wear mixed fabrics and eat a non-biblical diet. I wasnt stoned as a bad kid... nobody follows the laws about wet dreams or periods... Whats the deal?

If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb

[bandit1978]

One reason the Christian church picks and chooses from the bible is *propoganda*.  

I also find their deity, "God", to be mean and vengeful.  I think perhaps they are trying to look toward something good, the creator, the original source of love, the light, or whatever; they have just been misled or manipulated into believing that this entity is jealous and vengeful and should be feared;  and I think that the church and community leaders have been instilling these ideas for many years, for propoganda purposes, or to exact more money out of people, or to control people and keep them in line, and to promote patriarchy and repress women.

  I think this is very sad, and I feel bad for people who view creation/ or it's creator in this manner.

[BuzzKill]

Bandit - Please try and understand I am not judging you or anyone else. I am trying to answer some questions from a Christian perspective - respond to comments that I feel miss represent Christian beliefs - I am not judging you for disagreeing.

Timocela - I do understand why you feel as you do about the Old Testament's seeming harshness. I too have read it and thought Geez - thats difficult to understand. I have given the "problem" a lot of thought. I don't know if I can explain my thoughts very well - but it, for me, comes down to God is God. He knows things far beyond our understanding. He has His reasons and we are in no position to question Him.

Being God, He can see the consequences of any action or inaction that might take place. Perhaps, by His apparent harshness, much greater evil was avoided. Perhaps, the world entire, would have come to a tragic end long before now, otherwise. The thing is - we don't know and can't begin to imagine the reasons behind these troubling things - but if we believe in God, then we have to trust His judgment over ours.

I believe the strict law, as it existed prior to the Birth of the Christ, was for a couple of reasons.
One, for the health of individuals and society. I think much of it was designed to prevent disease in a world were people had no notion of germs, so God had them do a lot of washing for a lot or reasons.
The harsh rule toward rebellion, was in my mind, necessary in the world they lived in, to keep society such as it was, safe and functional. Designed perhaps, to keep society from degenerating into the state we have today, to soon.

But also, I think the Law was designed to prove to God's people that they could never earn their own righteousness. Jesus came not to abolish the Law - but to fulfill it - so that we do not have to live under the condemnation of it.

God, being Holy, can not commune with sin. We are all sinners - no matter how hard we try to follow any law. God came to us, as He promised He would, and lived and taught in such a way that we could see how we should try and live (Deb's Golden Rule)and how we should trust and honor God; How to pray so that out prayers have meaning and effect; to explain what eternity is like - for the people of God and all others - and finally to pay the price for the sins of men - so that by believing and trusting in Him, we are found blameless and with out sin (because He took it all upon Himself for our sakes: Isaiah 53; John 3:16) and there by able to commune with God. This is the Salvation message.

God Loves you and wants to bring you home. But He won't force you. He uses no escort service :wink: And only He can judge you b/c only He knows you - I do not, b/c I can not - and I would be judged by the same measure I use on you, if I tried.

[Anonymous]

The Bible promotes none of the stuff Nihi talks about.  

We believe the Bible to be the God breathed Word of God.  Its inspiration is verbal and total.  Its authority is absolute.  Its ORIGINAL manuscripts are inerrant. (Matt. 5:18, 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21)  

We believe that all Scripture is to be interpreted in a plain, normal, or literal manner IN LIGHT OF HISTORY, GRAMMAR, LITERARY DEVICES AND CONTEXT.  

We believe that salvation is a gift of God in grace and is received by man through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins.  

We believe that dogmatism and intolerance are virtues when foundational doctrines of the faith are in dispute.  HOWEVER, regarding less clearly revealed doctrines, dogmatism and intolerance are vices.  Humility and the preserving of unity are virtues Christians should manifest regarding less exhaustively revealed issues.  

Furthermore, Christians today face many issues which the Bible does not directly address and are issues of Christian liberty (ex. the nature of schooling which a particular Christian family chooses).  Regarding such issues each Christian is to be guided by the principles of Romans 14-15 and 1 Corinthians 8-10.  

Often, different Christians will validly come to different conclusions regarding such issues.  Regarding thise issues, Christians are not to judge one another or demand that others conform to their viewpoint.

Above are some of the doctrinal statements of a Bible believing church.  The Bible records many sins and evils, but as history not as "how to's".  

T, if you really want to ask the hard questions, I'll give the e-mail of someone who has been on both sides of the fence and has investigated exhaustively all sides.  He would be happy to share with you the truths he has found.

[Anonymous]

On what authority can religions speak with such certainty? It should be called religious theory...

[Anonymous]

The authority comes from fact.  God fulfilled no fewer than twenty nine specific prophecies spoken at least five hundred years earlier about him, all in one day!  

He will be betrayed by a friend  Psalm 41:9/Matthew 26:49

The price of his betrayal will be thirty pieces of silver  Zechariah 11:12/Matthew 26:15

His betrayal money will be cast to the floor of God's temple  Zechariah 11:14/ Matthew 27:5

These are only 3, but if you want more I'll type more.  

There are many prophecies about his birth, life, resurrection that were written more than 400 years before it happened.

"Jesus wasn't the only Jew to be born into the tribe of Juday, in the city of Bethlehem, and buried in a rich man's tomb.  Is it possible to believe that some of the details of Jesus' life
just happened to coincide with all those Old Testament prophecies?

For the answer to that question, we need only turn to the science of statistics and probabilities.  Professor Peter W. Stoner, in an analysis that was carefully reviewed and pronounced to be sound by the American Scientific Aflliation, states that the probablility of just eight prophecies being fulfilled in one person is 1 in 10 to the 17th power. That is 1 in 100000000000000000.

If you were to take that many silver dollars and spread them across the state of Texas, they would not only cover the entire state but also form a pile of coins two feet deep! Now, take one more silver dollar, mark it with a big red X, toss it into that pile, and stir the whole pile thoroughly.  

Then blindfold yourself, and starting at El Paso on the western border of the state, walk the length and breadth of that enormous state, from Amarillo in the panhandle to Laredo on the Rio Grande all the way to Galveston on the Gulf of Mexico, stooping just once along the way to pick up a single silver dollar out of that two foot deep pile.  Then take off your blindfold and look at the silver dollar in your hand.  What are the chances that you would pick the marked coin out of a pile of silver dollars the size of Tx?  The same chance that one person could have fulfilled just eight messianic prophecies in one life time!"  this quote is from Josh McDowell's book Beyond Belief to Conviction.  Look at the stats!  That is why I believe what I believe.  It is not blind faith as you say.

[Anonymous]

Already asked the hard questions, thanks.  Came up with answers that work for me.

The point of religion is to help you be a better person--where "better" means kinder to others, more disposed to offer them help, and to avoid harming them.

Help, and harm, are both defined by the recipient either as the competent adult he or she is, or (if he/she is not an adult or is mentally incompetent to manage his/her affairs, what he/she would reckon help or harm to him/herself if he/she *were* a mentally competent adult---in the context of his/her own worldview).

In other words, I accept no weasel wording that could justify the Inquisition torturing and burning people "to save their souls" with a weaselly, "Well, if *I* was lost *I'd* want somebody to save *me*--especially if I was as recalcitrant about it as *he* is!"

If you ever once accept that weasel-wording, any religious fanatic of *any religion* can use it to justify doing anything he/she likes to *anyone* else on the grounds that the fanatic knows it's good for his victim's "soul."

There are always hungry people you can hand a sandwich.  There are always sick or depressed or upset people who could use a kind word.  There are always people whose day would be brightened by a smile.

If your religion makes you unsure of whether offering a sandwich, a kind word, or a smile to some specific person would truly help or truly harm them, you always have the option of leaving that person alone.

A good person helps as much as he/she can, while first avoiding doing active harm.

The purpose of religion is to help you be a better person.

If your religion, whatever it is, is helping you be a better person, then I'm all for it--for you.  Because I'm all for you being a better person.

My religion already helps me be a better person.

If someone's religion does not help him/her be a better person, he/she is doing it wrong.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

So..you will just ignore the facts and stats that say Jesus is who He says He is?  Man has misued religion, God hasn't.  Doing what feels good to you in the name of religion is what gives religion a bad rap.  Ignoring the facts and stats of Jesus are just like ignoring the facts and stats of the abuse that goes on in WWASP.  It won't make it go away no matter how much you want to close your eyes to it.  You've asked the hard questions and came up with answers that work for you.  Isn't that what program parents say and you attack them?

[BuzzKill]

// I accept no weasel wording that could justify the Inquisition torturing and burning people "to save their souls" //

This is another example of blaming God for the evil men do.