Author Topic: FACTS  (Read 3631 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« on: May 01, 2005, 03:39:00 PM »
Why don't you guys go make an altar for John and go praise him so much as to stick up for him even though there are underlining facts that you can't win?

1. HE DID NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THERAPY OR GIVE OUT THERAPUTIC ASSIGNMENTS ON GIRLS ; HE DOES NOT HAVE A LICENSE!

2.HE FORCED GIRLS IN TO GIVING GRAPHIC DETAILS ABOUT THEIR DRUG AND SEXUAL HISTORIES.

3. HE INVAVED THE PRIVACY AND THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH OF GIRLS BY MAKING GIRLS SHARE THINGS AGAINST THEIR OWN WILL IN FRONT OF 30 OTHER GIRLS.

4. THE DID NOT FOLLOW THE MOST VALUABLE LAW ,TO A THERAPIST (AS HE CLAIMES TO BE)- CONFIDENTIAL CLIENT-THERAPIST RELATIONSIHP. EVERYTHING HE KNEW ABOUT YOU -EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT YOU.

CAN YOU ARGUE WITH THIS? THESE ARE FACTS. FACTS MAKE THINGS TRUE OR FALSE. CAN YOU DENY THIS? IF YOU DO NOT HAVE FACTS THAT CAN PROVE ME WRONG STOP POSTING YOUR HAPPY DANDY STORIES ABOUT THE SCHOOL..DON'T PROTECT SOMETHING THAT IS WRONG LOOK AT THE TRUTH.
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Offline enge4815

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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2005, 04:01:00 PM »
If these are facts are so true and so meaningful to you then why are you so scared to say them yourself wy continue to be anonymous? I am not portraying this school to be anything but my opinion of it. I am not i repeat not telling dandy stroies and I don't think John mercer is all godly and I will not put up an altar to him. HE is human and he makes mistakes just like you and me. I am not sayign what he does is okay because I am studing to be a licensed therapist. And from what i can tell from my own experience his methods are called attack therapy and if you would lie to know more about it look it up in a book or ask me and i can share my knowledge. Don't be afraid to share your opinion but don't do it when you can hide behind being anonymous.
Rebecca
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am only here to share about my experience opinion, and goals outside of MMS. I don\'t agree with all but I also don\'t agree with all MMS stood for either. When you read my posts I invite you to make your opinions and write back to me about what I said. B

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2005, 04:07:00 PM »
The truth is that you are angry and bitter. Maybe if you would set aside your emotions you could get an accurate picture of what the place really was about.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2005, 04:48:00 PM »
The reason so many post anonymously is because Colleen tries to intimidate those who say anything negative about MMS. Facts are facts; many people can experience the horrors of war, torture, rape or other awful events, and get over it, for the most part, and go on with their lives. Others, who are perhaps more sensitive, live with nightmares, flashbacks and debilitating fear for years or forever. Just because some can "get over it" doesn't make the event an acceptable learning experience. There is simply no excuse for treating anyone with such utter disrespect, especially a child.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2005, 05:08:00 PM »
How can you even EQUATE war and torture with the MMS experience? You obviously have not even been close to either. Get up and grow a pair.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2005, 05:28:00 PM »
I don't think she was making an equation type comparison. I think she was saying "People often get over Even obviously horrific experiences, but that doesn't make them good experiences."

And I quite agree.

And you never answered the questions.

Quote
1. HE DID NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THERAPY OR GIVE OUT THERAPUTIC ASSIGNMENTS ON GIRLS ; HE DOES NOT HAVE A LICENSE!

2.HE FORCED GIRLS IN TO GIVING GRAPHIC DETAILS ABOUT THEIR DRUG AND SEXUAL HISTORIES.

3. HE INVAVED THE PRIVACY AND THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH OF GIRLS BY MAKING GIRLS SHARE THINGS AGAINST THEIR OWN WILL IN FRONT OF 30 OTHER GIRLS.

4. THE DID NOT FOLLOW THE MOST VALUABLE LAW ,TO A THERAPIST (AS HE CLAIMES TO BE)- CONFIDENTIAL CLIENT-THERAPIST RELATIONSIHP. EVERYTHING HE KNEW ABOUT YOU -EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT YOU.

CAN YOU ARGUE WITH THIS?


Are these things true? Does the guy have a license to practice? Did he coerce little girls into discussing sensitive personal matters in a group setting? Does he break confidentiality as this gal described?

Are these things true? Cause if John Mercer did these things to you, I'd suggest that you'd have to be plum crazy to not be angry about it.

Faith is the commitment of one's consciousness to beliefs for which one has no sensory evidence or rational proof. A mystic is a man who treats his feelings as tools of cognition. Faith is the equation of feeling with knowledge.
--Ayn Rand, Russian-born author

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2005, 05:38:00 PM »
Well, that's a new one. Attack therapy, I've never heard of it personally. Of course I'm not going to school to become a therapist either.

OK, I finally found something on "attack therapy" on the web. Took quite some digging, I have to admit. But here we go. I suggest you read this because it's quite intersting, to say the least. And now I know for sure, no, I would not sign myself up for this.

CONFRONTATION THERAPY

Confrontation and attack therapy was one form of ventilation. Singer writes,

"Attack therapy is an outgrowth of ventilation therapy. Here the patient becomes the subject of verbal abuse, denunciation, and humiliation. This assault may come either from the therapist in individual session, or from peers in a group context.... As one critic put it, 'Tact is "out" and brutal frankness is "in." Any phony, defensive or evasive behavior... is fair game for... critique and verbal attack."

Sitting on the hot seat and verbal confrontation emerged from "human potential" centers, and were used extensively in LGATs:

"Another variant of the confrontation therapies appeared in the commercially sold large group awareness training programs such as Mind Dynamics... and Lifespring..... Marketed to individuals, organizations, and business and industry as experiential education, they typically use powerful psychological and social influence techniques, not always bringing about the advertised claims of success and profit to the buyer, and sometimes bringing psychological distress to the clients" (Pp. 113-114).

Notice that Lifespring and Mind Dynamics are singled out as users of confrontation therapies. Daniel Tocchini, founder of M/B, was a trainer for Lifespring for about eight years. He also singles out the founder of Lifespring, John P. Hanley, as the biggest influence on him:

"The impact of some individuals has been so profound in our lives that they stand in a class by themselves. John P. Hanley is one such individual. Thank you John for your stand for transformation and passion, and for your stalwart guidance through the years." (Killing the Victim, p. 11)

Newspapers have reported that Lifespring has been sued about 40 times for causing psychological distress of some sort, including at least six allegations that this form of confrontation brought death to participants. (Breakthrough /Moimentus requires participants to sign a "Hold Harmless" form which releases them from liability if trainees should die or suffer other harm as a result of the training; the form is based on one Lifespring uses.) Most suits were settled out of court. Hanley was once on staff of Mind Dynamics, which has been out of business for many years.

Attack therapy was rife in Momentus--most often the trainers attacking the trainees who stood up to speak or react to something the trainers said. But trainees were also encouraged by example to use it against others in the training--and those who picked up on it the quickest were often the ones that were later singled out as being most deserving or who'd best learned the techniques of "self-government" (such as those who were voted into the lifeboat in that exercise, mainly because they were the ones who'd stood up the most and attacked others or engaged in angry exchanges with the trainers).

The attack therapy described in that book is exactly what goes on in Momentus when the trainer picks out people to condemn for minor violations, such as not getting to our seats within one minute after the trainer or crewman responsible for the clock calls "Time." According to a woman I know who served on the crew, the trainer asks the sponsors and crew for the names of people taking the training who may be "trouble" or especially rebellious so that the trainer can single them out early to attack and break down. This seems somewhat similar to boot camp in the military, as the drill sargeant singles out the potential troublemakers to break down first. I recall the trainer doing this to one fellow--getting into a shouting and insult match with him, telling him he was "full of ---" and keeping at him until he wore him down. Later, in the "foot washing" ritual at the end of the training, the trainer picked out this guy to wash his feet, supposedly humbling himself before him, and the guy--by now thoroughly emotionally wrung out--broke out in tears. It was surreal.

Brutal frankness was definitely in during the entire training--even artificially produced, such as when the trainers forced everyone who couldn't remember the name of every other trainee (in a room of almost 60!) to go around and tell them that we "didn't care enough to remember your name." Ethics, kindness, gentleness--all were thrown out in favor of confrontation, the better to force you to determine what made up your own personal beliefs (but if they didn't conform to what the trainers thought they should, they turned out to be self-defeating).

The hot seat technique was used throughout, whenever we were required to sit in groups and let others tell us what they thought of us (even though they'd not had time to validly get to know us) or in twosomes and respond to emotionally charged personal questions such as "What was your greatest betrayal?"

The trainers put people on the "hot seat" and attacked people when they made statements. One woman stood up and said that she thought she was okay, and then the trainer berated her until she sat down almost crying.

Crazy Therapies' descriptions of Kevin in the "hot seat" are very reminiscent of how the trainers treated several individuals in Momentus--as well as how Momentus grads and sponsors treated people after the training. Momentus seems to suggest that such actions by grads have nothing to do with Momentus, but in truth, they're merely following the example that the trainers set in the training itself. Grads apparently figure, "if it's good inside the training, why not outside as well?" Nothing in the training really deters its enthusiasts from practicing it on others outside the training--as long as they limit it to other Momentus grads. Having taken the training apparently makes people perpetual targets in the eyes of the fanatics among the grads, especially if they perceive you doing anything that they don't like, whether it conforms to scripture or not. What I saw on many occasions--and experienced myself--was much like a barracuda attack. As soon as any Momentus grads perceived that one of them had "drawn blood," all of them jump into the fray, attacking the victim--and the word is valid in this context-- as a group in a kind of "feeding frenzy." It's nothing different from what goes on in the training--except that the trainers aren't there afterward so that they can say they didn't prompt it, even though others are just following their example.

The trainers also indirectly lead other trainees to get into the act, such as the times when someone's "buddy" left the training, and they had to convince the other trainees (at least those who participated in the attacks) why they should be allowed to remain in the training and not be thrown out. The trainer left the room when someone failed to complete homework, claiming

he was ending the training unless the others could "persuade" those who hadn't finished their homework to do so. (As I found out later, the trainer wouldn't have ended the training, but used this ruse to induce this peer-control.) I recall that my wife hadn't written a full page, as required, because she couldn't think of how to answer it, and she was brought to tears by the other trainees' hurtful statements.

There was also another painful-to-watch display when trainers urged people to "open up" and tell someone else how they'd hurt that person. One couple got up and started in on each other over the husband persuading the wife to take an emotionally painful action before they were married -- with the wife bearing her raw pain and anger at him out in front of everyone. It was really horrible to have to watch. (That couple divorced after the training--so much for it helping relationships.) Another couple was induced to get up and go at each other over imagined lust for others--which started because the husband thought a trainer had a lustful look. When the couple was worked up, a trainer and another crew member stood up and asked the husband to "please forgive" them for their own adultery--inducing yet another emotional catharsis. (One thing I've seen in Momentus grads who've embraced the training-- is a false, "easy" repentance, where just saying to someone "Please forgive me," whether sincere or not, gets the confessor off the hook and puts the onus on the other person. Even if the requestor shows no signs of actual repentance, if the other person doesn't forgive him, he or she then becomes the "bad person" and the Momentus grad no longer considers himself to have any responsibility in the matter. It was called "giving the ball" to the other person, and a trainer illustrated it in the training by actually throwing a ball to trainees and telling them that they now carried the responsibility for whatever exchange they were engaged in.)


I can honestly say that I would personally not sign myself up for something called "ATTACK THERAPY." The name alone is daunting. Reading this is downright scary, when you think about it.

Now you are a psych student and you know that Mercer's therapy sessions are "attack therapy," which makes this more scary in my book.

And if you are saying that what we've read here about Mercer's nightly "sessions" with the girls is "attack therapy", then it should be outlawed!! At least in a roomful of 30 other people! That seems insane to me.

I have seen two therapists in my life. Both are people who I highly respect, both I saw as an adult, both I would recommend to my best friends.

Never has either of them made me divulge anything I was not ready nor comfortable divuldging.

Never has one forced me to feel so intimidated that I would have to make up stories to satisfy him/her.

Never did either of them force me to answer intimate, personal questions relating to my sex life.

Never did either of them insist I share my personal experiences with a roomful of 30 other people.

Never would the therapists, the qualified therapists, who I have seen in my life EVER consider doing any of those things.

And never, and I mean NEVER, have they ever mentioned "ATTACK THERAPY!!!" Nor do I believe they enlist in that form of therapy.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2005, 06:37:00 PM »
Anon, could you please provide the link for that text? Context helps a lot.

Also, what's the essential difference between attack "therapy" and the way an abusive lover goes about controling their victim?

One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them



--Stanislaw Lec

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2005, 09:32:00 PM »
WOW rebecca,,,,hopefully you don't try attack therapy on your clients...you shouldn't have mentioned it anyway, now we surely have John on the hot seat...."ATTACK THERAPY" that is exacly what he did.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2005, 09:57:00 PM »
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2005, 03:40:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-05-01 13:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The reason so many post anonymously is because Colleen tries to intimidate those who say anything negative about MMS. Facts are facts; many people can experience the horrors of war, torture, rape or other awful events, and get over it, for the most part, and go on with their lives. Others, who are perhaps more sensitive, live with nightmares, flashbacks and debilitating fear for years or forever. Just because some can "get over it" doesn't make the event an acceptable learning experience. There is simply no excuse for treating anyone with such utter disrespect, especially a child. "


I am not here to take sides or argue anyones opinion with them but if you are still scared of a woman who once was an authority figure at a school you attended calling you up and telling you not to talk badly about MMS you have other issues to face. We are all adults now, and you shouldn't feel intimadated or threatened by someone who you are on the same level as now.

Melissa Gower.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2005, 10:33:00 AM »
I don't think it was a student who wrote that post. At least it didn't sound like one to me. (Nope, it wasn't me, I'm just speculating.)
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2005, 06:15:00 PM »
Melissa,

HELLO.......PEOPLE DO NOT WANT LAWSUITS TO BE FILES AGAINST THEM. THEY HAVE LIVES TO LIVE AND DO NOT NEED ANYONE NAGGING THEM IN THEIR PERSONAL LIVES THREATNING THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE CHOOSING TO SPEAK FREELY. FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT SO EASY...THAT'S A SHAME...WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THE SCHOOL ANYWAY?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2005, 08:12:00 PM »
No where in anything that I said did I defend MMS. I said "I am not here to take sides or argue anyones opinion with them but if you are still scared of a woman who once was an authority figure at a school you attended calling you up and telling you not to talk badly about MMS you have other issues to face. We are all adults now, and you shouldn't feel intimadated or threatened by someone who you are on the same level as now. "
My point was that Colleen or John or anyone at MMS cannot sue you, and I highly doubt they would. They aren't stupid and clearly are just using the threat of a lawsuit for intimidation. You cannot sue someone for sharing their experience,and moreover don't think they would want to take it into court because that would mean they would need evidence to prove that the things that whoever they were suing claimed were not true, and they don't have that evidence. My point was that if after all this time someone can't just say what they want without being scared of getting a phone call from someone they have no reason to be scared of,they  have bigger problems to face. People who are too afraid to even state their name when making a serious claim are never taken seriously. I'm not saying that to be mean, but it's true. If you are THAT serious about a matter and want something to be done you need to back it up with all you have and put yourself out there. If you hide your identity you can't do that. Also, you don't need to speak to me like I'm some ignorant idiot who doesn't understand why you and others don't want to use their names, I do understand your reason but I am telling you that you have these fears for no reason. Unless you do something illegal which you haven't, MMS can't take any action against you and get anywhere with it. I just feel like if someone wants to make a stand they need to do it, not just talk about it.

Melissa Gower.

Quote
On 2005-05-02 15:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Melissa,



HELLO.......PEOPLE DO NOT WANT LAWSUITS TO BE FILES AGAINST THEM. THEY HAVE LIVES TO LIVE AND DO NOT NEED ANYONE NAGGING THEM IN THEIR PERSONAL LIVES THREATNING THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE CHOOSING TO SPEAK FREELY. FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS NOT SO EASY...THAT'S A SHAME...WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THE SCHOOL ANYWAY?"
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2005, 08:23:00 PM »
Melissa, I think you're absolutely right. If someone feels intimidated by Colleen they certainly have issues, but I think those issue were likely if not brought on certainly exacerbated by MMS.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/nimhptsd.pdf
 
PTSD is an interested disorder that develops when trauma occurs to a person and can, I think, in part, explain that strong emotional reaction to clamp down and feel all the feelings once felt and expereinced while at MMS.  Like MMS did tell us, feeling aren't facts,  I'm sure everyone can logically say to themselves, Colleen's just another lady making her way in the world, but emotionally there is no change to the intimidation felt when being telephoned after overcoming obstacles just to post.  Bottom line, the saying used to go 'if you're not following the ways of MMS you're fucked up.'  When you feel you have to go along for your own survival sake and later recant all those lies, it's scary.  MMS was crucial in us formulating our identity and, if while there a person felt this dualism develop all along b/c they felt forced to pretend MMS beliefs to fit their own truth, then of course it's going to be scary to come out and be honest and say to the majority and to the person perceived to be one of the leaders of it all- I think you're wrong.  The truth is often difficult to face anyway, but to have it cause conflict?  And to face the fact that some girls had to supress their truths for so long and did so afterwards, it's damn near amazing anyone can make sense of it all to ever get a clear picture of who they really are, if they are not everything they were supposed to be according to MMS and sometimes parent and other alumni and then to verbalize it.

I think this is the reason why, for those of us who don't agree with the tactics and have experienced them have a very tough time getting it together and address this important issue.

Additionally, who hasn't heard stories about someone being irrationally fearful after being raped- the fear caused by that trauma doesn't just go away.  In time I'm sure those who fear Colleen will get past that.  I know I did.
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