Penny Walker of Kids Helping Kids on the usefulness of time-

[Anonymous]

Nihilanthic, the first part of your post was real cool and I agreed with it based on what I saw at Straight -- restraints were used on people who simply wouldn't flap their arms or who resisted other people having their hands on them, making them sit up and be a Straight robot. (Straight even coerced clients to grab hold of someone's head and turn it in the direction of the person speaking, because that was the constant rule, everyone had to be looking at the person speaking.)

However, I am not sure if you are saying that a supine restraint is "safe" and therefore not damaging. I just wanted to say that when I was restrained in a five-point restraint at Straight, Inc., by other clients who were coerced into restraining me, it was a supine restraint with one person on each limb and one person at my head. I experienced the same terror and emotional trauma that you described in the second paragraph of your post there.

Does anyone know what the restraint technique was that they used in communist or Korean brainwashing camps?

[Anonymous]

they are being monitored by camera?  How come they would put me out in the timeout rooms when i arrived to KHK and take me out when i went to my oldcomers house, during which time i got no food or water, and they would claim that they forgot i was out there.

[BuzzKill]

Or - search Amazon.com for books on Brain washing; mind control; behavior modification and so on.

There are many books to chose from. All will describe the intentional infliction of stress often by inflicting pain and hunger and sleep depravation and so on.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-07-11 23:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Nihilanthic, the first part of your post was real cool and I agreed with it based on what I saw at Straight -- restraints were used on people who simply wouldn't flap their arms or who resisted other people having their hands on them, making them sit up and be a Straight robot. (Straight even coerced clients to grab hold of someone's head and turn it in the direction of the person speaking, because that was the constant rule, everyone had to be looking at the person speaking.)



However, I am not sure if you are saying that a supine restraint is "safe" and therefore not damaging. I just wanted to say that when I was restrained in a five-point restraint at Straight, Inc., by other clients who were coerced into restraining me, it was a supine restraint with one person on each limb and one person at my head. I experienced the same terror and emotional trauma that you described in the second paragraph of your post there.



Does anyone know what the restraint technique was that they used in communist or Korean brainwashing camps? "

Any restraint done improperly can be damaging! A 5 on one supine restraint can stil be ridiculous even though you happen to be facing up! That said, it would have been a lot worse if you were facing down, mentally and potentially physically. Your head would be forced to the side so you didnt squish your nose, breathing would have been harder, and your neck would have quickly been strained. Plus, not being able to see or breathe would just compound any stress you already had.

Holding your HEAD is simply ridiculous, and the fact that other straight clients did it is just asking for injury. Just because a restraint is supine doesnt mean its actually 'good', but its one of the pre-requisites of making a restraint that won't terrify and injure someone - see what I mean? That said, Im really sorry that you had to go through that. That must have been awful to go through as a kid without knowing whats going on.

BTW, whats this straddle hold supposed to look like? I havent heard of it (probably becuase its inapplicable to fighting with it :silly:) but does it help prevent injuries to the restrain-ee? Is it like this? http://www.judo-for-all.com/Theory/Theo ... gatame.htm

Thats less likely to injure someone unless the seme (er, the restrainer in judo terminology) puts his bodyweight on the restrained person. However, having someone hulking on top of you would freak out he average person. Id rather see one of those PROPERLY done (note how the head is free) than a 5 on one supine spread eagle straight-do hold. At least their BODY wouldnt be fucked up even though they'd probably be terrified and humilated :sad:

And as far as restraints used in POW camps, Id imagine it consisted of being whipped or smacked around with a rifle butt or a stick, or maybe the captors wanted to practice whatever Judo or Yuudo (Korean MAs tend to copy Japanese MAs, go fig) they learned without having to care if they damage their 'uke' in the process.  

In the end, just leaving the damn kid alone would do a lot more good than restraining the perosn. If theyre not hurting themselves or anyone else, leave em alone!

Drug War tells us everyone's body is common property
to be managed by the central government for our own
good, even if it kills us.  This is Communism!
Drug Policy Foundation of Texas

--Bob Ramsey

[Anonymous]

Any restraint is emotionally traumatic.  Supine, done right, at least it doesn't court serious *physical* injury or death.

It's hard to get more traumatic than dead.

At the same time, I *strongly* oppose restraints except when they are absolutely necessary to the physical safety of the patient or others around him/her.

I had to help restrain my (under ten) daughter for about five minutes (felt like five hours) *once*.  It was horrible.  She was allergic to her pierced earings, was swollen to the point that it was extremely serious, had to have them clipped out of her ears with the medical equivalent of wire cutters, was uncalmably hysterical, and the doctor wouldn't trust me and give her a calming drug to help her deal with it *without* needing physical restraint.

I told my daughter's pdoc and she's getting me a note recommending benadryl and a dosage to help get her sleepy if she absolutely needs some other medical procedure in an emergency and is hysterical.  The tendency to freak that badly comes from pediatric bipolar disorder, and even stabilized on medication any kids with this are susceptible to "bipolar rages" and parents and teachers have to be very careful and compassionate to *not* trigger one.  She couldn't help getting so scared and upset, and nobody else could help it for her, either.

*That's* an example of a situation when restraint was necessary--if only because the doctor didn't have enough of a psych background to understand how much a mild sedative would help and was necessary, and the medical procedure needed to be done right then.

It was *still* horrible.  I hope we don't have emergencies, but if we do, I hope her pdoc's note will keep us from ever having to put her through that again.

Timoclea

[Nihilanthic]

Tim, thanks for putting it back into the context it should be, I went off on a tangent of the mechanics of it. It can be done without actually harming the person if you know what youre doing, but most either dont know how, or dont care.

Any kind of physical restraint or confinement is damaging psychologically. And in your case it was a necessary thing to do, but it still probably terrified your kid.

Imagine if she was in a program! She would have had her ears mangled by some ass chomping at her earlobes with the cutting tool, and she probably would have been dogpiled like the anon from a previous post for a few hours and thrown in the pokey.

The real-world and program-world sure are different.

No synonym for God is so perfect as Beauty. Whether as seen carving the lines of the mountains with glaciers, or gathering matter into stars, or planning the movements of water, or gardening - still all is Beauty!
-- John Muir

[webdiva]

i still remember reading through my brother's MI's and on his 60th day he wrote how proud he was that this was the first day he didn't get physically restrained. :sad:

[Nihilanthic]

Thats a pretty ridiculous version of a 'backmount' from BJJ. At least they taught the person using it how to get their hooks in (feet around the knees/thighs). Usually when we get there we'd follow up with a shoulder lock, maybe a twisting-knee/knee compression or ankle lock, or just a simple sleeper hold. (Again, this has NO place being used with children, this is fighting!)

Thats a prone hold, BTW. So, kids facing down, being physically dominated, and as you've said it looks like (and probably feels like to the poor kid) that they're getting it from behind. In other words, wholelly inappropriate and potentially dangerous, as Ive said above.

I am glad that it seems Florida has said not to use this, but you and I both know these rules arent followed or enforced.

Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561769118/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Terence McKenna

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-13 01:16:00, webdiva wrote:

"i still remember reading through my brother's MI's and on his 60th day he wrote how proud he was that this was the first day he didn't get physically restrained. :sad: "

I was restrained once, at Straight, I am the previous poster who was talking about the supine five-point restraint. It was terrifying. They were on my body and one girl was at my head and she kept twisting my head. I was afraid she was going to break my neck, but trying to get free just made her twist it more and someone's hand was clamped over my mouth so I could not communicate what was happening. I should have never gone through that. Your brother should have never gone through that. It hurt enough that one time, I can't imagine two months of being restrained, day after day. B.P.

[Deprogrammed]

Dear Anon,
It  is b/c they(KHK) are cruel and unusual liars.
Dont worry they will be very exposed come sept. 2005.
Sincerely a friend,
-DP

As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Anonymous]

why? what's going down sept 2005?

[Deprogrammed]

A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special

--Nelson Mandela