Author Topic: My Son At Thayer  (Read 65254 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2005, 07:17:00 PM »
It is interesting that in your opinion, this site is not one the dispenses "legitimate information."  

As for the other information you ask my son was 17 when at Thayer.  The rest is confidential; as you would say, why post confidential information on a site that does not have "legitimate information."   You said it, not me.  

And my friend, since you have posted on this site, is what you say also not legitimate?  

Your Friend, Nemo.
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Offline SPEAKINGOUT

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« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2005, 10:41:00 AM »
Oh Capt. Nemo-
You OBVIOUSLY are part of the whole TLC scheme.  Maybe even the Bundy's themselves.  You KNOW that I was not saying that the information contained here is not legitimate, only that some of the "raw" emotions may make a person "appear" to be irrational.  If you (or anyone else) reads through all of my posting(s) they will see exactly what I intended to say.  I think it is VERY INTERESTING that you THINK you have found a way to discredit me (and everyone else) who posts on this sight.  Again, you sound more and more like a Bundy at every post.
I believe the thing I (and the other people who post on this sight)- Most of which I KNOW, by more than just their posting here, and HIGHLY RESPECT find MOST interesting is that you refuse to tell us WHAT 3 UNIVERSITIES your son applied to, and where he was in fact accepted to.  This is perhaps the MOST TELLING of all you have said.

The statements I made about the "legitimate" sights were specific to- NON EMOTION, and here is the quote from my last post: "Finally, to send parents to this forum is certainly fuel for your fire. I agree that some of the parents and former students act inappropriately. Again, I am not making excuses for them, but I do understand that this is the only forum they have to vent. Much of the press, politicians and media do not care about our stories- so this forum allows the things to be said, sometimes in their "raw" form.
It is certainly NOT the place that a person who wanted parents to have an "educated decision" to be sent."
Again, I like the way you try to "twist" what I said into making it "appear" that our posts are not legitimate- because I used that word doesn't negate everything else I said.  
Your TRUE identity is shining through! We call you an obvious "fly on the wall" - and I, nor any of these other intelligent people are falling for your smoke screen!
We may have been blinded by a lie when we sent our children to TLC, but we RESCUED them and are not falling for any more of them.
SMELL LIKE A BUNDY TO ANYONE ELSE AROUND HERE??
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Offline SPEAKINGOUT

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« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2005, 12:00:00 PM »
Hey Ginger,
I am beginning to feel the same way about this "Nemo" character as you.  Seems to be attacking everything/everyone but the issues and ?? raised.
Thought if maybe I replied to him without emotion and without appearing as though I was "attacking" him that he might come clean and back up his claims about his/his son's TLC experience.  Then maybe we could all come to the conculsion that there was PERHAPS one child that they actually helped.
Seems that I was wrong...
Very telling I would say!

I also wanted to address something that has been really troubling me.  There was this kid that was at TLC the same time my son was there.  My son told me about him when we rescued him.  My son said that he was being medically neglected, and his Fam. Rep. was trying to get him seen by a Dr., ended up calling the authorities over it, and she got fired.  I read an article months ago where this parent was talking about their kid going to TLC, how their Fam. Rep. called them and said there was a problem and that they were glad they did not listen to her because now their son is doing so great, at a new school, etc.Now, I recently heard about this employee who's story sounds like the exact same kid (down to the medical problem the kid had).  I read the article to my son and asked him about this kid- "didn't he ever witness the abuse my son saw, or anything?"  my son told me that HE DID see the other kid(s) abused, and that he also was involved in many of the other stories my son had told me about.  I say all this just to show that either the boy DID NOT WANT tell his parents the whole truth, or that maybe because the boy went from TLC to another school the parents just don't know, maybe they never asked, I don't know, but there is obviously a big difference in the stories. I know that my son was telling the truth because NOW I have read it in a newspaper article straight from the parents, that they were glad they left their son there and did not listen to the rep, and then saw it specifically on the Isac website, and also got it confirmed from another source.  
i also know another parent that can not get his son to talk about his experience at TLC at all.  The kid is scared and very angry.  
So, it is interesting how some parents just don't know the truth, maybe they don't want to know- and, maybe Capt. Nemo is one of those parents?!
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2005, 01:39:00 PM »
SPEAKINGOUT, I'm really not surprised. Here are a couple of interesting correspondence between some Program vets and some dyed in the wool Program parents:

http://trebach.org/letters/chavez/

http://trebach.org/letters/cavey/

We found out soon after that the Straight graduate of whom this parent is so proud has extremely limited contact w/ him and, like most of us (my mom's just the same) will never leave their own children alone w/ him.

That says a lot about how the Program "works". These folks (Chavez, Cavey, my own mother and Nemo) got just what they paid for; a kid who will never, ever again let them get close enough to see or (God forbid!) try to "help" them w/ any sort of personal problem. If the kid ever does try to explain what was so messed up about the program then the parent can just blame the kid for not working the program and go on basking in the glow of the parent support group's ongoing assurance that, in such a situation, "good" parents get tough and withdraw support and affection.

Clancy's Law: The perceived role of governments is to deploy ever increasing resources to the attainment of  ever diminishing end results.
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Offline SPEAKINGOUT

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« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2005, 02:23:00 PM »
P.S.- Capt Nemo- You are not "my friend" :exclaim: .
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2005, 03:52:00 PM »
what happened to Nemo's voice?
Cat got your tongue? :???:
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Offline finlyrite

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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2005, 08:23:00 PM »
I am glad your son is doing so well, but I guess we can't all share your point of view.  I am suprised you were able to enroll him in a University with his TLC academic credits?  My son does understand me sending him to Thayer, but says it was a waste of my money and was nothing but a brainwashing experience for him.  I can honestly say his behavor did NOT change when he returned from Thayer, but was due to other personal experiences six months after his return home.
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Offline finlyrite

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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2005, 08:35:00 PM »
I'll have to give Bundy a little bit of credit.  I don't believe he would stoop this low.  Manipulation and deception is Bundy's style.
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Offline finlyrite

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« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2005, 08:54:00 PM »
If your son was the boy that died as a result of medical care neglect - wonder what you would say then.  I don't really care how many HAPPY ENDINGS exist, one child's death is one too many.  On top of that, the Bundy's blame one of their ex-employees for their revenues being down.  This is why I wouldn't want this characterstic of a person responsible for the well-being of my child.  What about the email I received while my son where there.  FACT-first hand - word for word from Cody Jimenez ([email protected]) Subject:  Thayer Learning Center and I quote:
"I would like to know as much as you know about The Thayer Learning Center.  I am writing a letter to the state reporting claims against them.  Your imput will be added to a number of other parents and ex-employees along with my own. Anything you can tell me will be of use.  I would also ask for a phone number if possible so I may call you regarding any questions I may have about your reply."  Upon sending my phone number and "Cody" calling me and having a conversation asking me why I was not happy with the program, how did I obtain this information (my son had stated these things to me during our telephone conversations since I was unable to have a family visit after 5 1/2 months) and stated that other cadets in the program could have felony charges if they were ever arrested for drug possession - say in Nevada (where he was from - marijuana possession is a felony charge).  I was told by both Willa Bundy "this was their attorney's idea" during my unexpected exit interview.  John Bundy avoided my question and was not man enough to admit to my face this was another 'Bundy Deception' - but they're good people looking out for what is best for these troubled children?  Just food for thought.
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Offline finlyrite

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« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2005, 09:05:00 PM »
Cpt Nemo - It appears you had the advantage of being advised that Thayer Learning Center was the "end of the program" you wanted for your son.  Unfortunately, I don't believe many of us were given such a truthful picture of Thayer, with many of us not ready for the "end of the road" program.  We were also referred to Thayer Learning Center by Parent Help - who represented themselves as being a facility for helping parents find the "perfect fit" for their troubled teens.  Come to find out, Parent Help is owned by John Bundy.  Would this hit a nerve for you?  Maybe not.
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Offline finlyrite

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« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2005, 09:14:00 PM »
Cpt Nemo:  Do you feel an inkling of disappointment over the alleged conduct of Willa Bundy?  Can you understand that some of us come here to describe our experiences and feelings since we have been on the receiving end of "Bundy desception"?

State report critical of boot camp over California teen's death

Associated Press

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - A state report on the death last year of a California teenager at a northwest Missouri boot camp found fault with access to medical care there and said records may have been falsified.

The Caldwell County Sheriff's Department had asked the Missouri Department of Social Services to investigate the November death of Roberto Reyes, 15, of Santa Rosa, Calif. The youth died at the Thayer Learning Center in Kidder, less than two weeks after arriving there. An autopsy cited complications from rhabdomyolysis, a breakdown of muscle fibers, and said the condition was probably due to a spider or insect bite.

In a wrongful death lawsuit filed in February in Buchanan County Circuit Court, the boy's parents alleged that he was subjected to physical exertion and abuse that caused or contributed to his death. Reyes' parents also claim their son would have lived had he received competent and timely medical care.

The state report was given last week to Jason Canoy, the Caldwell County prosecutor, who released it to The Kansas City Star. Canoy said he hadn't decided whether he would take any action.

"There are some alarming parts about it," he said of the 275-page report. "But I have not made a decision as to who I would file charges on or if I would file charges at all."

The state team that investigated said the boot camp apparently "failed ... to provide access to appropriate medical evaluation and/or treatment." Further, it said, "interviews and evidence also suggest significant contradictions and possible deliberate falsification of written records."

Ed Proctor, an attorney for Thayer, was unavailable for comment Thursday, but has told The Star that "every child at Thayer has immediate access to medical care at any time."

In interviews excerpted in the state report, owners John and Willa Bundy, along with other people connected with the camp, said they didn't know or think the boy was sick before he died. Willa Bundy also said she hadn't read the records in question until she was interviewed by a state investigator in late February.

At least 10 people identified as Thayer employees gave the state investigators descriptions of the boy, one saying he appeared lazy, another saying his attitude was bad. Some said he struggled to keep up with the rigorous exercise, that he complained of sore muscles, needed assistance walking and at times used others as "a crutch."

At least four said they never saw or were told anything to suggest Roberto was sick. But one drill sergeant said she eventually came to think he might be sick, and at some point relayed her opinion to Dorothy Steele, identified in the report as the facility's medical officer. The report said Steele, also the general manager of the kitchen facilities, is not a registered nurse and that an EMT license that she had expired in 2003.

Steele told investigators she treated Reyes on Nov. 1 for blisters on his feet. Besides sore arm and leg muscles, had no other medical complaints, she said.

Former employee Sarah Mackey, who resigned in December, told investigators her duties included filing daily "shift notes" about students and activities. The report said that after Roberto died, she read notes from the days leading up to his death and "stated that every day the log sheets indicated that Roberto was getting worse and worse and worse."

Mackey told the investigators that Willa Bundy later took files of the shift notes, asked for 10 blank forms and went into her office. When Mackey later reviewed faxed copies of shift notes sent to the state by an attorney for the boot camp, she "stated they were inaccurate and incomplete, compared to the shift notes she had seen and read in the office."
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Offline finlyrite

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« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2005, 09:17:00 PM »
This information was not available say 6/03.  Parents are trying to give others some first-hand information about the Program and experiences there.   I was only given references by Parent Help.  Funny thing, one reference I was given was "Adrian Grisel".  This is also Willa Bundy's maiden name, her behavior modification method named "Grisel Method".  Uhmmmmmmm
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2005, 09:29:00 PM »
January 23, 2005

Referral agency's connection to boot camp angers parents

Kansas City Star
by Steve Rock

Several parents who sent their troubled teens to Thayer Learning Center in northwest Missouri were referred to the school by what they thought was an independent agency.

In fact, the Parent Help referral service is operated by the same people who run Thayer, a military-style boot camp where a 15-year-old California boy recently died. The death triggered a state investigation and prompted former students and employees to come forward with allegations of physical and emotional abuse of students. The connection between the two businesses, less than 15 miles apart, angered several parents who spoke recently with The Kansas City Star. They said the relationship was never disclosed during conversations with Parent Help employees. ?I was very emotional and desperate in a way,? said Vicki Young of Ohio, who sent her son to Thayer in July 2003. ?And I thought this was a parent help group. ?I didn't have any hint they were related.?

A leading business ethicist said the relationship between the two businesses is clearly a conflict of interest, while a child welfare agency official said such a connection is not uncommon, but should have been disclosed. Three former employees of Parent Help told The Star they were coached to send as many children as possible to Thayer. Two of those former employees said they never disclosed to callers that husband and wife John and Willa Bundy ran both businesses, and one of them said a fellow staff member said not to mention it.

The Bundys ? who opened Thayer Learning Center Boot Camp and Boarding School in Kidder, Mo., in 2002 ? have offices at the Parent Help building in Gallatin, Mo., according to former Parent Help employees. The Bundys declined to take questions from The Star, referring inquiries to their attorney, Ed Proctor. Proctor didn't respond to several messages left with his office.

But Wally Kerr, sales manager at Parent Help, said Thayer is one of about 15 facilities nationwide that Parent Help represents. The Parent Help Web site last week listed eight in addition to two Thayer programs. Kerr said no greater emphasis is placed on sending kids to Thayer than to other schools. ?We try to get the best program possible for (the children),? he said in a telephone interview.

When asked whether Parent Help employees disclose the connection between Parent Help and Thayer to parents, Kerr said they only refer them to Thayer's Web site. The disclosure, Kerr said, ?comes through having them look at the Web site.? Separate Web sites for Thayer and for Parent Help include an identical section describing the Bundys as the owner of each. Each site briefly mentions the Bundys' connection to the other business.

Some of the parents contacted by The Star, however, either don't remember being sent to Thayer's Web site or never saw the mention of Parent Help. ?We're proud of the fact that the Bundys have established a school and that they've established a parent help operation,? Kerr said. ?There's nothing to hide here.?

One parent said she called the Missouri attorney general's office to complain that there wasn't full disclosure but was told to put her complaint in writing. Scott Holste, a spokesman for that office, said the Consumer Protection Division hadn't received any formal, written complaints about Parent Help. His office would look into any complaints lodged, he said. Thayer, located about 50 miles north of Kansas City, houses about 100 teens.

At the request of the Caldwell County sheriff's office, the Missouri Department of Social Services is investigating the November death of Thayer student Roberto Reyes to determine if abuse or neglect was involved. Gus Kolilis, deputy director of the department's legal division, said an investigative team has interviewed ?numerous? people. ?We're not leaving anything unturned,? he said.

No charges have been filed in connection with Reyes' death. Caldwell County Prosecutor Jason Kanoy said he was awaiting results from the state investigation, which could come as early as this week, before deciding whether his office would take any action. After Reyes' death, a panel of county and state officials charged with reviewing child deaths said earlier medical treatment ?may have prevented this fatality.? The Jackson County medical examiner's office said the probable cause of death was a spider or insect bite. The review by county and state officials ? coupled with police reports and allegations made by former students and employees ? painted a disturbing picture of life at Thayer.

A Dec. 19 story in The Star cited police reports and interviews with seven former Thayer employees and students that alleged physical and emotional abuse of students, such as one being forced to eat her own vomit, medical neglect and another student being forced to sit in a tub of urine. In a written response to The Star in December, Thayer officials called the allegations ?ludicrous and false.? Since the story was published, at least two children have been removed from Thayer by their parents.

Now some parents are raising questions about the manner in which their children wound up at Thayer in the first place. Parent Help hot line Some former Parent Help employees said they were reluctant to publicly discuss their experience there because they fear legal retribution from John and Willa Bundy.

Thayer Learning Center has filed at least one lawsuit against former Thayer employees, alleging defamation and other things. But conversations with three former Parent Help employees, as well as relatives of six children who have been at the school, offered insight into the placement process.

Several parents said they found the Parent Help hot line number on the Internet. John Bundy is listed on an online site that registers Web domains as the administrative contact for several sites, such as http://www.troubledteen.com http://www.troubledteen.com and http://www.teenprogram.info http://www.teenprogram.info. Neither of those sites clearly identifies their connection with the Bundys or Thayer Learning Center, but both sites mention Thayer as a ?featured school.? Both of those sites, and others, encourage parents to call the same 800 number. One parent said she called the number, then never went back to the Internet to do further research. ?Why would I?? the parent asked. ?Parent Help said so many wonderful things about Thayer.?

The 800 number is answered by employees at the office in Gallatin, in a building that has no obvious signs identifying Parent Help. Kerr said the business, which has about six employees, gets from  50 to 150 calls a day and additional inquiries via e-mail.

The employees who answer calls to the 800 number are not counselors, two of the former employees said, but salesmen who get commission for placing students at Thayer or other facilities. They ask the parents, many of whom are distraught about their child's behavior, various questions about the child and tell them they'll find the facility that best fits him or her. According to the former employees, though, the Parent Help representative recommends Thayer, where costs can exceed $50,000 a year, to as many parents as possible.

?If you called and your kid was over 12, I was sending you to Thayer,? said one former employee who did not want to be identified. Matthew Turley, who said he worked for Parent Help from July to October 2004, said: ?You would try to put the kid into Thayer, or suggest that one over any other one.? Turley said he never felt awkward pushing Thayer. ?To me, it never felt like I was trying to keep something under wraps,? he said. ?I just felt that Thayer was one of the better ones ? from what I heard.?

Besides, both he and Kerr said, not every child is sent to Thayer. There are some children ? those younger than 13 and older than 17, for example ? that Thayer typically won't take. So some kids are sent to places such as Bonneville Canyon in Maine. ?They have been very good to us,? Michelle Tibbetts, who works in admissions for Bonneville Canyon, said of her organization's relationship with Parent Help. Tibbetts said she was unaware of the connection between Thayer and Parent Help.

Kerr said employees aren't coached to send kids to Thayer but ?to get them into the correct program.? ?We don't follow a script,? he said. As far as the connection between Parent Help and Thayer, Turley said that unless asked specifically, ?we would never tell (the parents) that.? That infuriates W. Michael Hoffman, executive director of the Center for Business Ethics at Bentley College near Boston.

?I've heard of a lot of conflicts of interest, but this is way over the top,? he said. ?To say the least, it's clearly unethical ? especially when you're dealing with children, children who obviously need help.? Joe Healy, director of residential services for the Child Welfare League of America, based in Washington, D.C., said it's not uncommon for agencies to operate a referral center and a placement facility.

?For those that do, it would be typical that it's clear to everybody that they do both and that the referral might be to one of their own programs,? Healy said. ?It would seem to me, ethically, that you would disclose that.? Angry families All Young wanted to do was help her son, now 18. Her teenage son had become defiant, and Young wanted a military-type school for him, a structured and regimented environment that also had an educational component.

Young scoured the Internet, eventually finding the Parent Help Web site, which states: ?We help parents with troubled teens.? She filled out a questionnaire and waited for a phone call, which she believed would be from an independent referral service. The person who returned her call recommended Thayer. ?He said he had actually been to that facility to see what it was all about and that he was very impressed,? Young remembers. ?He said there were several programs, but specifically recommended Thayer Learning Center.?

Based on the recommendation, Young and her husband drove their son from Ohio to Thayer in July 2003. The grandmother of a different child also didn't realize there was a connection between Thayer and Parent Help. Jacqueline Payne, a Texas resident, desperately wanted to help her granddaughter. She found the Parent Help hot line number on the Internet and said she spoke with a Parent Help employee at least five or six times.

Not once did the connection between Thayer and Parent Help come up. ?I was real specific about what I wanted,? Payne said. ?He just said, ?It sounds like Thayer is the school you want.' He really talked them up and said the owner, Willa Bundy, had a lot of experience with kids. It sounded like the perfect match. ?There was never, ever any indication that they weren't an independent company. There was a curtain of dishonesty there.?

Payne's granddaughter was at Thayer for less than four months in 2003.

Parent Help Inc. was registered in Utah in February 1998. John Bundy, 47, is listed as the registered agent in Utah secretary of state filings. Thayer Learning Center LLC was registered in Missouri in August 2002, and lists Willa Bundy, 43, as the registered agent.

Ricky Parker wishes he knew about the connection between the two facilities before he sent his son to Thayer in November 2003. The Parent Help representative he spoke with pushed Thayer ?the whole way,? he said.  ?I thought I was talking to an organization that would help me choose, out of maybe several schools, where to send my child,? said Parker, who removed his son in January 2004. ?It was like, ?Hey, man, I worked there for a time. They really know what they're doing. They're very caring.' ?I thought they were advising me.? His thoughts now? ?I'm out about $20,000,? he said.

First glance

? A northwest Missouri military-style boot camp and a referral agency that recommends the school are run by the same people.

? Some parents who sent their children to Thayer Learning Center are angry because they thought the referral was coming from an independent agency.

Finding the right fit

Ruth Ehresman, policy director of Citizens for Missouri's Children, a nonprofit child advocacy group based in St. Louis, says parents need to ask tough questions when looking for a home for their troubled teen. If dealing with a referral service, ask whether the service has any affiliations with the schools it represents. When dealing directly with the facility, Ehresman suggests asking questions such as:

? Is the school credentialed, licensed or accredited? If so, by whom?

? Are staff screened? What kind of training is required of staff?

? Is there a written discipline policy?

? What's the provision for medical care?
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2005, 05:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-01 17:35:00, finlyrite wrote:

"I'll have to give Bundy a little bit of credit.  I don't believe he would stoop this low.  Manipulation and deception is Bundy's style."


Oh, this seems to be quite common in the industry. And this is one reason why people are afraid to speak out and why it's so difficult to get any justice. There's a fine line between telling what you know and libel. People get emotional and make mistakes in their choice of words that anybody (but a good lawyer experienced in this area of law) might make. So then they get sued. Even if you do sue successfully, they routinely pressure plaintifs to accept a gag order as part of the settlement.

And then the Bundys and the Lichfields and all the rest of them claim the small number of successful lawsuits against them constitutes proof that they've never done anything wrong.

This is a really mean spirited industry!

Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2005, 01:09:00 AM »
Dear Everyone:  

Sorry to miss all of your kind words.  I have been out of town (without laptop) and just returned.

As reading comprehension seems low on the board, I think it is time I repeat a few points.

1)  My comments about the results achieved by my son have only been about him.  I have made no other statements of general suitability; only to say that it is not a place for the "good kids", but (if any) the rally "hard cases."

2)  I have never defended the Bundy's. I have never met them.  

3)  I do not support the Bundy's fronting websites which do not disclose their connection to Thayer.  This, I beleive is wrong.

4)  The fact is that Thayer did work for my son.  I am sorry for any teen who was in a program that did not work out him or her.  I have only one son and he benefited from Thayer.  

5)  The diploma from the correspondance school Thayer uses was accepted by 3 universities.  No one even questioned it.  Maybe these are the only 3 schools in America that will accept it; I don't know. What I do know is that he is studying with an academic scholarship and doing well.

6)  I have never challanged anyone's account of how the program they were in was a complete failure.  I have accepted your bad experiences at face value [something you cannot bring yourselves to do regarding my son's experiences at Thayer]

7)  I understand that many parents feel guilty about their decision to send their teens to such a program.  I accept this and do not minimalize your feelings.

:cool:  I know full well what Thayer is like.  What you seem unable to accept is that this is just what he needed.  He confirms this to me.  

My son seems well adjusted to college life.  He is getting all "A"s and laid on average 3 times a week.  That meets my definition of a well adjusted young man.  We speak by phone almost daily.

What most of you need to get over is that FACT that a program you dislike very much did for my son achieve the desired results.  

It is interesting that you all find every reason possible not to accept what I have written.

As to posting on this site my or my son's name...just read your own posts.  Few of you are mentally mature enough to deal in an adult-like manner with such information and some of you are downright psychologically damaged (as you say in your own posts).

What most of you need to realize -- and this is somthing that will assit you in getting rid of all that anger you express on this site -- is that no matter how hard we try, we won't get a better past.

To the parents:  If we only had all the information before we made decisions.  With teens in trouble, we must often act quickly. And, it is our children through their own choices and actions that put us in this spot.  So if we error, it is in trying to do what is/was best for them.  

To the teens:  It would have been cheaper for Mom and Dad to have tossed you out the door.  They spent a lot of money on what they thought was best for you.  If it wasn't, well, they at least tried.  And, it was your poor choices and actions which put them on the spot to send you away. And don't say "It was just teen stuff, I would have grown out of it."  Listen, the jails and cemeteries are full of teens who did not "grow out of it"...and their parents cry themselves to sleep each night.

And to everyone:  Life is about making choices and moving on.  We are neither omniscient nor infallible.

Kindest Regards, Nemo
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