My Son At Thayer

[Anonymous]

Dear Friend:  If all you know is:

"Somehow, for me, a person who has never been in a program, never looked for a program, who just knows they exist..."

Then you should find something better to do with you time then wast that of those who have first hand experience.

Take a beer, go back to your TV and bother others.  

Nemo

[Anonymous]

This is the REAL Nemo.  I never posted:

"Did you like his last post where he was talking about hanging out on "different" sights when his wife is at work."

So, there is someone playing with you minds, not me.  By the way, my wife is a stay-at-home Mom.

The REAL Nemo.

[tlcrescue]

nemo, to prevent others from posting as you, why dont you post under your registered name you have on here?  when you click "post" or "respond", there is a field for you to put in your username and password...

Just trying to help out..that way things dont get jumbled up and people can't post and pretend like they are you.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-08 18:07:00, hugakid wrote:

Somehow, for me, a person who has never been in a program, never looked for a program, who just knows they exist and the damage they can cause, looks at everything written, and given the information, and even the acknowledgment from the "pro-Thayer folks" that they know bad things go on there, that kids are abused there. They do not deny it. As a parent, there is no way in hell that I would ever for one second consider sending my child, if I were looking for a program, to a place with this type of history. EVER!!

Thank you :nworthy:

I think we sometimes forget that the people we're arguing with are patently insane and absolutely delusional about their perceived support in the community. Thanks so much for the reality check. It actually brought tears to my eyes.

Come to the woods, for here is rest. There is no repose like that of the green deep woods. Here grow the wallflower and the violet. The squirrel will come and sit upon your knee, the logcock will wake you in the morning. Sleep in forgetfulness of all ill. Of all the upness accessible to mortals, there is no upness comparable to the mountains.
-- John Muir

[SPEAKINGOUT]

THANKS FOR TELLING IT LIKE IT IS.  YOU HAVE SAID EVERYTHING WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET ACROSS, BUT SINCE IT NOW COMES FROM SOMEONE OUTSIDE THE SYSTEM IT HELPS US TO KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE LISTENING AND "GET IT", UNLIKE SOME "OTHERS" THAT CHOOSE TO STAY "SPADED".

THE THING IS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE THEIR PARENT, YOU JUST HAVE TO CARE ENOUGH TO WANT TO PROTECT THEM FROM EVIL.
GOOD FOR YOU!  Kids need someone they can depend on, so I say thanks from the kids of the parents that don't care enough to do anything about it, or worse- that send their child to an abusive program ON PURPOSE- which does happen too :sad:

[Anonymous]

You know Hugakid, hysteria is the enemy of reason.  

This attitude in your post a few back that Thayer is, by your (and some others') definition at least, this or that, and that anyone who questions this interpretation makes you "disgusted".

Well what if you're wrong? I mean a lot of people seem to disagree with you.  So I don't see anything at all wrong with asking, asking for experiences, asking questions about Thayer, its academics, anything else.

You imply that they are killing kids, I presume you mean by neglect (don't you?), well I would like to hear other takes on that too, since oppositional kids can in many ways do themselves harm---in anything but a lock up facility and in fact even there.

See I want to know the facts, I want to hear different opinions, in short, I'm not willing to accept that because someone like you is very certain and very righteous that they are in fact right.

So if you're "disgusted" I suppose you will remain disgusted, not much that I can do about that.

And I will continue asking questions.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-10 06:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You know Hugakid, hysteria is the enemy of reason.  

Yes, it is. And sending a kid off to a private prison, even knowing they just killed somebody else's kid, is, by any measure, an hysterical response to teen angst.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
-- Margaret Mead

[Anonymous]

"Private prison"?  Would that be what many people would call a therapeutic boarding school that an acting-out  kid doesn't want to go to?  Are you one of the ones who thinks there are no limits on what a minor ought to be able to do without restraint of any kind?

They "killed" a kid?  Do you know this?  Fill me in please--- given the slander laws, I've got to consider that you wouldn't make such a statement without some proof and I'd like to hear what that proof is

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-10 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

""Private prison"?  Would that be what many people would call a therapeutic boarding school that an acting-out  kid doesn't want to go to?  

That would be any private organization that takes kids (or adults, for that matter) from their beds at night, in shackles and drugged if necessary[sic] then holds them against their will and incommunicado.  

Are you one of the ones who thinks there are no limits on what a minor ought to be able to do without restraint of any kind?

Are you one of the ones who thinks there are no limits on what a parent ought to be able to do to their child without restraint of any kind?

They "killed" a kid?  Do you know this?  Fill me in please--- given the slander laws, I've got to consider that you wouldn't make such a statement without some proof and I'd like to hear what that proof is  "

Roberto Reyes did not kill himself. He had no choices in his activity, medical care, nutrition or anything else. Neither did the kids or lower level staff in who's 'care' he died. Keep abrest of the latest:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... yes+thayer

I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet

[Anonymous]

As far as I can see this Thayer kid who died was bitten by a brown recluse spider or something related, had a pretty severe reaction and died. Your point is that the staff should have recognized the symptoms (which are BTW in dispute)and intervened

Yeah, I'm with you on that, evne with a pretty unusual set of circumstances it bears looking into--if in court, the school is found to have missed reasonably detectable signs and symptoms I think they have to be--- and will be--held liable.

But honey, that's a far cry from suggesting that they intentionally did it, that's what "kill" would mean to me

Tragic, yes, maybe negligent we'll see. But not intentional, and not the result of easily forseen or common circumstances

And for God's sake let's go by what is actually proven to have happened not what some pond scum percentage-chasing lawyer alleges.

See I've got a theory about people like you, their main deal is to put down schools that help out-of-control teens, they'll use or misrepresent any tragedy like this one to further that end---so I'll wait and reserve judgment on whether or not this was negligence or a horrible set of circumstances that is not likely to be repeated.

[tlcrescue]

So when they body slammed my son to the floor the as soon as he arrived at the school (which, by the way was unnecessary, we/and he thought he was going to a boarding school) and twisted his ankle till it snapped, was not intentional?  I think not! Any rationale person can see that the use of unnecessary force IS intentional and serves only one purpose, to boost their inferiority complexes!  Why would you body slam a kid to the floor and twist his ankle to oblivion simply because when he entered the building for the very first time EVER he looked a drill instructor in the eye.  Oh wait, that is forbidden.  And exactly how was he supposed to know this?

Then, on top of that, they refused him medical treatment and forced him to exercise on the fractured ankle until I arrived to pick him up.
Yes, very intentional!

[Antigen]

Well, your theory is off. What do I stand to gain by doing what you say I'm dong? You prove to me that even one of these kids would be dead w/o the Program. I don't believe it. In my own experience and dedicated observation, people who go through these programs are more often harmed by them than helped.

And it's not asif Roberto Reyes is the first kid to die under similar circumstances. Here's an incomplete list http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8 ... /id74.html (incomplete because the programs are not required to report deaths)

I don't think the Bundys or others intentionally murdered these kids. I think they're delusional in that they simply do not believe that the kids sent to them ever have a valid complaint about anything. They litterally can be at death's door and these dumb sons of bitches will write it off as manipulation.

Will they be held accountable for their actions? It's hard to say. Charles Long II at least got a slap on the wrist for his part in Anthony Haynes' death
http://www.flpba.org/private/arizona.htm

But, evidently, the people who continue to operate Buffalo Soldiers don't have a problem w/ that. They still list him as President/CEO of the organization
http://thebuffalosoldiers.com/theplan.htm

I don't know if Roberto Reyes was bit by a spider or not. But I think it must have been one hell of a big and agressive spider to have fractured his bones and dragged him far enough to scrape the skin off of his feet. Those are facts stated in the autopsy report.

You want proof of the effacacy and safety of the methods employed at Thayer? Here's a good place to start:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9511&forum=7

The NIJ is already heavily invested in promoting and implimenting the Confrontational Therapeutic Community method. They've been in it up to their eyebrows since Bobby DuPont visited Synanon as head of NIDA and formally recomended that the method be propagated throughout the land over 30 years ago. He then acted on that recomendation by shepherding through grants and other funding and support for the likes of Art Barker's The Seed program and Straight, Inc.

Now, finally, they've taken some time (and, you know as well as I, a nice chunk of money that used to be ours) to try and document the success and benefit of this form of therapy that they've been hawking to us for a generation. If you read the study report, you'll find that they were unable to do that. They can't even call hit safe, let alone effective.

My only interest here is in giving a shout out to kids coming out of these places so they know it's not just their imagination and in providing a cuationary tale for parents who might otherwise get duped into shipping their kids off to people who make wild promises.

Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--- courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion, courage is science.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Anonymous]

But the fact remains that lots of kids go to these kinds of schools (I don't know any from Thayer but I know several from other schools that are regularly bashed here) and come out stronger better people.

Oh I know someone bent on bashing this whole approach will say "Wait 5 years".  I know kids who are 7 or 8 years out doing great, glad they went, is that enough for you? Obviously not--when you're committed to not believing that these kinds of programs can't be good, not ever!

I just have the sense of a witch hunt/"don't confuse me with the facts"/true believer attitude among some posters.

And no one can prove that any one kid would have died if he or she did not go to a certain school: nobody can predict that way, but we can use our best judgment as parents.

If a kid is getting into majorly risky situations at home and has been warned and has been counseled and the family's been counseled and so on, I'm not going to let the descent go on. I'm just not going to do it, period. Because that descent has risks of its own that figure into my decision.

So we can argue about specific schools, I guess. A parent who chooses a boarding school like this can only act on the best knowledge available. Because tragedies can happen any time, mistakes can happen any time, and I'd much rather have a kid at home where I can act as a parent to watch personally what is going in.  I'm just saying that I don't buy that this is always doable.

On Thayer I'll wait and see, keeping in mind that it could be negligence--- and keeping in mind that not every tragedy that happens means that somebody was negligent.  I just don't buy that the whole thing is automatically as clear cut as some posters seem to be making it out to be

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-10 15:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"But the fact remains that lots of kids go to these kinds of schools (I don't know any from Thayer but I know several from other schools that are regularly bashed here) and come out stronger better people.

Sure. Two years in the life of a teenager will do that to you. My daughter was a prime candidate for one of these places, except I knew better. She is a far stronger, better person now than she was @16. Plus, she doesn't have nightmares about having been in a program (or about getting chased down and returned to a program) and we have absolutely no difficulty over how we, as a family, handled the situation.

Lots of people come out of these programs saying the program saved them or that they'd be dead or in jail w/o it. But that doesn't make it true.

Oh I know someone bent on bashing this whole approach will say "Wait 5 years".  I know kids who are 7 or 8 years out doing great, glad they went, is that enough for you? Obviously not--when you're committed to not believing that these kinds of programs can't be good, not ever!

Oh, I think some kids do benefit from the experience. And, as I've said before, plenty of people grow stronger and wiser through horrific experiences. So I asked you to explain the difference between placing your kid in one of these toughlove hate camps and, say, shoving them off a cliff. I don't think you ever addressed that at all. Did you think I was being facetious? I wasn't. It's essentially the same thing.

There is a difference, however, between shoving your kid off a cliff, hoping they grow from the ensuing adversity, and allowing your kid to decide for themselves how close they should get to the cliff edge, whether or not to take your advice and admonitions on the matter and to learn from their own mistakes.

I just have the sense of a witch hunt/"don't confuse me with the facts"/true believer attitude among some posters.

I think you have a misconception about the numbers of people in each camp. If you go to the Program sponsored forums, they're censored. No strong dissent is tolerated and, quite frankly, nobody who's been through one of these programs and not totally affected by it really wants to hang around w/ you guys. Here all comers are welcome. What you see is what you get. If it seems slanted against the Program that's probably a fairly accurate reflection of prevailing opinion among those w/ firsthand experience.

And no one can prove that any one kid would have died if he or she did not go to a certain school: nobody can predict that way, but we can use our best judgment as parents.

And we can use our best judgements about the abuse that routinely happens in these programs. Even if, most of the time, they get away w/ it from a legal standpoint.

If a kid is getting into majorly risky situations at home and has been warned and has been counseled and the family's been counseled and so on, I'm not going to let the descent go on. I'm just not going to do it, period. Because that descent has risks of its own that figure into my decision.

Oh, I entirely agree w/ that! We never gave up on our daughter when she was acting crazy. We just knew better than to do anything that would place her at risk in our efforts to help her. We knew this because I have lived it firsthand. When you look up old highschool chums, if you ever do that, you probably find some doing pretty well, some not. When I try to look up old friends from Straight, I'm not exagerating when I say more of them are dead, in jail or on the skids than not. That's not true of those alleged bad influence kids I knew before and after the Program. And I don't think it's coincidence because so many other Program vets have described the same experience.

And that makes perfect sense. You know very well going in that what you're doing is radical; that it's sure to have a huge impact on the kid. How then can you expect the impact to be totally good, entirely under your control? It just doesn't make sense. The entire program is based on subjecting the kids to severe trauma and distress. Maybe they'll rebuild themselves and maybe the benefit will outweight the harm done. But that's a crap shoot and certainly no better than whatever most of these kids were getting themselves into by their own choice. The difference is that, outside the Program, they have the option of walking away if and when the damage is more than they're willing to bear. Once the thugs come for you, you're stuck for the duration.

So we can argue about specific schools, I guess. A parent who chooses a boarding school like this can only act on the best knowledge available. Because tragedies can happen any time, mistakes can happen any time, and I'd much rather have a kid at home where I can act as a parent to watch personally what is going in.  I'm just saying that I don't buy that this is always doable.

Well then you should look into the history and what little research there is available. The reality has not even a nodding acquaintance w/ what the Bundy's like to believe about what they're doing.

On Thayer I'll wait and see, keeping in mind that it could be negligence--- and keeping in mind that not every tragedy that happens means that somebody was negligent.  I just don't buy that the whole thing is automatically as clear cut as some posters seem to be making it out to be

"

Well, again, the Roberto Reyes story is all too familiar. When the same thing keeps happening again and again, at some point you can no longer call it accidental.

I'll tell you one other thing. There's a woman out there somewhere named Charlotte who, if she's still alive, she owes me her life. I was on the highest phase of my program and she was a newcomer. And she had kidney problems. One day, she got sick. Had been asking to see a doctor all day when I came in from school. Everyone she asked dismissed her complaints as manipulation; just trying to avoid herself by getting out of group... blah, blah, blah.

Well I looked at her, saw that she was pale, sweating, unable to focus, her lips were blue and she was terrified. I risked getting started over by arguing w/ staff and suggesting to them that, if she didn't see a doctor, "we" might have a dead kid to explain away. But it was just dumb, blind luck that on that day, I happened to be in a generous mood and willing to even consider the possability that the girl wasn't lying.

That's the way it works, folks. When you entrust your kids to a Synanon/Lifespring based program, you are placing their very lives in the hands of children and zealots who are too self deluded to even notice when a kid in their care is sick, injured or near death.

For all the same reasons why you attribute some vaguely defined dark agenda to my efforts, these same people simply dismiss any complaint, no matter how serious, that your child may try to make.

The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.

http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/bingo.ram' target='_new'>BINGO!

[Anonymous]

...but it doesn't get past the fact that therapeutic boarding schools (at least some of them) lead to good results with a lot of kids.

Maybe you don't think that this should happen--it maybe violates your sense of how things should be---but that's the reality--at least based on what I see.

And yes, people can grow better and wiser at these schools---but, come on, that doesn't mean, as you try to set it up, that it was a horrific experience, like getting dropped off a cliff (why don't you drop the hysteria for God's sake)---maybe it was a confrontation and growth experience.

Maybe, consider this,at least for some, it was even a great experience, with life-long friends, emotionally moving events, memorable self-confrontations, hey, why would you want to take that away from anyone, why would you want to pull this pompous BS about "Well, maybe in 5 or 10 or 15 years, you'll see I'm right"---how about just celebrating that someone who was off-course found a way to be better.

I don't know exactly what happened to you, Synanon and all, but I have a sense that it wasn't what's what's going on in the schools I'm thinking about.  

Sure there's restraint of kids who are bent on self-destruction in the schools I'm talking about, and maybe hard work and emotionally painful passages---sorry if that offends you, sometimes kids need serious limits.

I keep getting the sense that there are a lot of people here who are really hostile to being adults. Don't know if you are one of them. But what I do know is that there is a serious negative death-energy that some teens get into--- and it is a blessing when there is a way for them to get out of it.