Parents, please consider this

[Perrigaud]

No, never did go to Juvi due to the fact that I never got caught. People knew it was going on however they couldn't say much. Schools kicked me out but never had enough to prove anything. Hence the kicking me out. I was on juvinile diversion for a school fight.

Hell yes the program helped me. It didn't fix me as I was not broken. I'm not a toy I'm a person. I needed guidance to help me figure out what the hell was going on. I needed help forgiving myself and others. I needed a break from all the crap I had going on around me. I went to a residential treatment facility. I had a therapist that helped me tremendously. I didn't feel abandoned. I was pissed that I was in a place I couldn't run away from. I was happy to be away from my famiy. Even now I am grateful I got to go through the program. Again not everything is agreeable. It's not perfect and there are things I disagree with. But I never got abused. I gained so much insight by going through the program. How would my life be like? Dunno. Can't say for sure. However I did attempt suicide (half hearted of course). Maybe I would have kept spiraling down and kept hurting people physically and mentally? Who knows. And maybe I would've finally gotten caught, gone to juvi, and decided to get my life straight. Who knows?

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-14 19:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Antigen,

How long ago were you in the program you were in if you dont mind me asking? Im assuming that program has been shut down. I cant remember. Im just curious.

Amanda



"There are alot of psychopaths in prison, unfortunatly most are on the staff."

- Craig Charles "

It's in my signature. I was in Straight from `80 - `82. Straight, Inc. is gone as of around `93, but they didn't actually shut down. Zealots never do. Whenever a program would lose it's license they just pull essentially the same shell game as coal mining operations do to avoid liablity; they incorporate under different names and pretend to be different. Straight, Orlando is now operating under the name SAFE, Orlando. Detroit is now Pathway Family Center (also in Utah, SLC if I'm not mistaken). Cincinatti is now Kids Helping Kids. Altlanta; Phoenix Family Institute. And there are others.


WWASP does the same thing. Dundee is gone, but I understand they're opening in the same location under a new name soon, if not already. They've had at least 7 programs shut down that we know of. But they just keep on going under various corporate names. If you want a good laugh, take a look at all the backpedaling Litchfield and Hinton have been doing over in Boonville, Mo. There's extensive discussion about that in this forum. "Oh no, Kemper will have nothing to do w/ WWASP, except for ALL of the money, ALL of Randall's experience and ongoing affiliation w/ J. Atkin's SkyWest."  :roll:

They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.

--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham

[Antigen]

Peri, what is the method of treatment used at CCM? What was your diagnosis? Who was the diagnosing physician?

I think I know what you're refering to in your comments about juvy. I made a comment some days ago about the relative unliklihood of kids going to jail for drug use. You seem to now believe that the only reason you didn't land up in jail is that you were extremely lucky. Roughly how many of your peers actually wound up in jail? I'm guessing a very small number as compared to the number of them who were involved in illicit drug use.

The point being that the WWASP programs, just like the Straight programs, grossly overstate the risks involved in NOT using their programs.

Every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid."
--Alexander Hamilton    

[Timoclea]

On 2005-04-15 03:17:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"No, never did go to Juvi due to the fact that I never got caught. People knew it was going on however they couldn't say much. Schools kicked me out but never had enough to prove anything. Hence the kicking me out. I was on juvinile diversion for a school fight.



Hell yes the program helped me. It didn't fix me as I was not broken. I'm not a toy I'm a person. I needed guidance to help me figure out what the hell was going on. I needed help forgiving myself and others. I needed a break from all the crap I had going on around me. I went to a residential treatment facility. I had a therapist that helped me tremendously. I didn't feel abandoned. I was pissed that I was in a place I couldn't run away from. I was happy to be away from my famiy. Even now I am grateful I got to go through the program. Again not everything is agreeable. It's not perfect and there are things I disagree with. But I never got abused. I gained so much insight by going through the program. How would my life be like? Dunno. Can't say for sure. However I did attempt suicide (half hearted of course). Maybe I would have kept spiraling down and kept hurting people physically and mentally? Who knows. And maybe I would've finally gotten caught, gone to juvi, and decided to get my life straight. Who knows?"

Some kids are juvenile delinquents, and are not mentally ill.  And I don't mean just status offenses like being sexually active or running away, or being truant.  Some kids do things that do tangible harm to others, like assault and battery, or breaking and entering, or DUI, or shoplifting, or arson, or worse.

At least, if there's something wrong with their brains contributing to the behavior, we certainly can't identify it well enough yet to have any success using that as a model for helping them.

I doubt juvie is the absolute perfect facility, all implementations of juvie, everywhere, for dealing with hard-core juvenile delinquency.

I don't doubt that some of the programs, sometimes, under some staff and administration combinations, for some JD's, do a better job than the local juvie detention facility would do.

My problem isn't the existence of reform schools.  My problem is the lack of procedural safeguards and enforcement mechanisms to make sure that only JD's are in the reform schools, that the JD's basic human rights are respected the same way they have to be in juvie--including timely and appropriate medical treatment, and that staffers have background checks and mechanisms to get bad staffers or admins out of the system efficiently and in a timely manner.

If the programs were *good* privately run versions of juvie, with the appropriate safeguards and enforcement mechanisms to ensure that they were and remained *good* versions, I'd wish they didn't have to exist, but I wouldn't have problem with them existing.  I'd agree with their need to exist, just like I agree with the need for juvie to exist now.

I can accept and agree with the idea that for real JDs, you can potentially get better results shipping specific kinds of cases to specialized regional or national facilities rather than putting them in a one-size-fits-all local facility.

It's not the existence of specialized private reform schools for JDs that bothers me.  It's the lack of safeguards.

Even real juvie has mentally ill JDs inappropriately placed or inappropriately deprived of correct psychiatric treatment.

I want reform, not closure.

One of my problems with the whole correspondence issue is philosophical.  While parents can tell their kids that the kid can't play with or talk to Johnny across the street, they really can't keep the kid from talking to Johnny.  While they may tell the kid that they can't see or talk to specific other kids at their school, they really can't enforce that if the kids have lunch or recess at the same time or ride the same bus.

Personally, I think that's a good thing.

And I think that minors do and ought to have certain basic rights that their parents shouldn't be allowed to interfere with.  One of those rights is freedom of thought.  My child may have to obey me, but if she thinks I'm full of shit about making her eat her vegetables, she has the right to freedom of thought to think that.

I may have a serious grudge against Dr. Seuss.  Or horse stories.  Or Laura Ingalls Wilder.  But unless the story has a lot of sex or violence or racism or religious material, unless they homeschool them or keep them out of the public library, parents can't keep their children from reading Dr. Seuss or horse stories or Little House on the Prairie.  And they can't keep their children from reading those stories at a neighbor's house unless they pretty much make the kid a prisoner in his or her own home.

I think that's a good thing.

I think it's good that parents don't and can't possibly have absolute control over the speech, or reading material, or thought, or TV viewing material, or radio listening material of their children.  Some parents are flakes.  Society has an interest in children growing up to be integrated and functioning members of society.  Some of the natural and functional limitations on parental control of the inputs that shape their children's thoughts and the outputs that are expressions of those thoughts are good and necessary and appropriate.

We don't generally dictate these freedoms for the child from their parents' control by law, because we don't generally *have* to.  We don't have to open that can of worms.  The child gets around as much parental control as he or she usually needs to, usually all on his or her own, so that even when the parents are total flakes the kid has the ability to grow up with some sort of capacity to think for himself or herself and be functional in society.

But if it were to happen that parents were to *become* able to exercise full control over all these things, I think we *should* legislate to keep them from doing so---except in cases of legitimate parental concern about sex, violence, religious content, or racism/hate.

I don't think all parental control is legitimate.

In line with this philosophical position, I firmly believe that as long as children aren't advocating violence or other lawbreaking, as long as they aren't defaming anyone with untruths, as long as they aren't harrassing anyone---I believe one of their fundamental rights of communication ought to be to send letters to any person or people they want, saying anything they want, if they can get the stamps or computer access or whatever---that is, if someone gives them either stamps or computer access.  Like the public library currently gives internet access and yahoo and hotmail give email accounts.

I think if children want to complain about their parents, or their school, or their church, or their other relatives, or their government, or the laws, or *anything*, that the right to freely complain to anyone in email or snail mail is a fundamental free speech right of each child that should be protected *from* their parents, their school, their government, etc.

Everybody, of whatever age, has the fundamental right to bitch in private correspondence, about anyone or anything, to anyone or any group that is willing to recieve the correspondence.

My biggest problem with the programs, philosophically, is that they interfere with that fundamental free speech right.

I think in their natural day to day environment at home, at school, and in the community, children of all and any ages enjoy the right to bitch.  It's something you cannot physically limit *except* by jail and total surveillance.

I think that right has never been protected by law because it has never had to be.

I think now it has to be, and must be.

I think depriving these children of the fundamental right to sufficient privacy to bitch, whine, moan, and complain is one of the worst systematic abuses of the human mind and soul that these places, and the parents who abuse their discretion to use these places, perpetrate, and I find it deeply morally and intellectually and philosophically offensive.

I find it an absolutely obscene breach of human rights.

And I will oppose that breach to my dying breath.

What they do is inhuman, and horribly, horribly, monstrously wrong.

Timoclea

the war on drugs is but one manifestation, albeit a very dramatic one, of the great moral contests of our age -- the struggle between two diametrically opposed images of man: between man as responsible moral agent, 'condemned' to freedom, benefiting and suffering from the consequences of his actions; and man as irresponsible child, unfit for freedom, 'protected' from its risks by agents of the omnicompetent state.
--Thomas Szasz

[ This Message was edited by: Timoclea on 2005-04-15 10:12 ][ This Message was edited by: Timoclea on 2005-04-15 10:14 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-14 19:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

The reality is the kids that go there are minors. thecnically, all their parents have to do is feed them, clothe them, and give them a sanitary home.

I know they probably trot that out pretty often like a mantra. But the truth is that a parent who only provides minimum basics required by law is no parent at all. Every kid born on this Earth deserves a whole lot more than that. The law is written to draw a fairly definite line between kids who you just feel sorry for and those who actually need to be rescued from criminal abuse.

Minors dont really have alot of rights by law. It is the parents who take the fall for a minors actions. If their child gets in trouble, they get in trouble.

That's also way, way overplayed. Theoretically, yes, if a kid steals or destroys something AND gets caught AND convicted AND is sentenced to restitution, they ultimately hold the parent responsible financially. But that's a rare case. That's the little grain of truth on which they build the big lie that you should feel terribly guilty for making your parents' lives unmanagable. The greater truth is that all of us were kids once. Most of us embarassed and worried our parents from time to time. And we knew that (or should have known) when we decided to have kids.

I think as an adult it is differetn when it comes to rights. Even though they have the right to call people in jail, they cant call whenever they want. If you are in lockdown, you can call. You have to call when they tell you to. When my husband was in jail for this ridiculous drug charge, he wrote as the main communication, because you had to call collect and he could only call at certain times.

There's another difference. He was convicted of a crime. And there's a very important similarity, too. The "crime" was probably not a crime at all.

And, btw, this goes to why I'm so intensely interested in this industry all these years later. Here's a run-down of what the founders of Straight have been up to for the past 30 years:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=8#95628

I don't know exactly where Litchfield puts his money. I do know that he invests heavily in legislation and legislators.  And I'd be willing to gamble a small bit that his legislative investments lean toward laws and policies that favor his industry. For example, by law, you can't limit anybody's access to communication, especially communication w/ law enforcement or the media. But which Utah agency would be willing to enforce that law against WWASP after all the cash Litchfield has given them?

what is "stood up at home raps"?

We had raps or groups ALL the time. That's just about all we did. To be stood up in rap meant litterlly to be told to stand up, answer questions from staff and group members, get yelled at, explain yourself, etc. If you put in to go to work or school after making 3rd phase, then staff would stand you up, ask you to explain why you deserved whatever you were asking for and then call on various group members to comment on it.

We just had the opportunity to sign up for community service and all that and anyone could go, as long as you were an upper phase.

How did that work? Did you say you wanted to go back to school and staff denied permission? And how would you find out the decision? Was in announce to your peer group? Or were you told privately? What if you disagreed? What would happen if you said "No, I want to go to school, I don't want to do community service."

And what would you be required to do in order to attain a high enough phase to go to work or school? What if you simply didn't want to discuss your private issues w/ your peer group?

We didnt have open meeting night. We had room night in the upper phase facility where you just stayed in your room for an hour and talked. It was alot of fun actually. I miss that.

From what I've read, I think Open Meetings were probably more similar to seminars. And I'd like to know more about that, too. What would happen if you just didn't go along w/ the seminars? I'm not talking about fighting or violence or anything. Just if you simply didn't agree to do or say whatever was required in the seminars, then what would happen?

But about room night. What kinds of things would you talk about? Did you have to be on a higher phase to have room night? What did you do on lower phases? And, again, what if you just didn't feel comfortable talking or listening to these other kids? Could you opt out?

I went to class wiht my group. As I said it wasnt bad. Did you guys go to public school while in the program? I think that is what you are saying.

Well, after we made 3rd phase, we'd go to whatever school our parents decided. I went to a bizarre fundie Baptist school that used the PACE homeschool curriculum. There and in the public schools, though, there were other program kids. So you were effectively under surveilance ALL the time. It was a little different from WWASP, too, in that most of the clients were local people. So even after graduation, there was the 7th Step Society, w/ mandatory meetings (more group, as I understand it) and light surveilance. I never graduated, but I remember a few graduates started over or put on refreshers. That really was the last straw for me. When they added that aftercare program, that eliminated just about all of my incentive to try to graduate.

The 18+yos who went to work usually worked for Program affiliated companies too. And, of course, they had to get approval from staff to accept or leave a job. And the employer had to be willing to schedule their hours around Program requirements.

We went on the facility grounds so no one other than the kids in my group went to school wiht me. I didnt work or go to school outside the program while in the program so i cant really answer that last one.

So, as long as you were there (how long?) you didn't leave the property except for planned, permitted trips, is that correct? And how many of those were there? I can remember, over two years, going on about 4 daytime permissions (otherwise, you'd stay home... meaning not one toe over the property line... on afternoons off) Then there was my 5th phase trip to Disney World and one out of town trip w/ my mother to visit my Brother in the next state.

I have read up on your Straight Inc place. I cant believe that. I really feel like I can understand the program hostility you have now a little better. Trust me, if it had been the same where i was, I woudl feel the same way! But I can say it was close, but not that close. I really hate that they treated you like that. They are supposed to be giving help and trying to help the kids, not destroy them. I really feel that for the most part, anyone i met at the program (staff, facilitators, therapists, ect) really wanted to help me and cared about what they were doing. I really feel bad for how they treated you. I am not a WWASP fan really, I just think the program I went to had a better idea of what they were doing and were actually trying to help. I really hate that the people who support the program I went to have willingly supported those programs as well. But I can say CCM has the right idea anyway. But trust me. I am in no way supportive of WWASP for being a G.W. contributor and for opening and supporting abusive programs.

Amanda



"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments, only consequences."

-Ingersol



""

I get the impression that CCM isn't the worst place on Earth. However, Tranquility Bay and High Impact are run by the same people. And it's my understanding that if a kid won't tow the line at one facility, they can be shipped off to a tougher facility. That happened, to some extent, at Straight too. If a kid ran away all the time, they'd ship them off to another facility in a strange town. But there was no equivalent to TB or High Impact.

There were just the timeout rooms right there in the building. So it's easier to see the direct connection between Straight, Sarasota and what happened to Sammie Monroe, for example. Someone from CCM can honestly say they never got pepper sparyed or put in OP. But can you say that a kid who fought or ran from CCM wouldn't land up in TB or another, tougher WWASP program?

It's the same thing. The vast majority of Straight, Sarasota clients never got sat on, never got roughed up. We saw it happen to others and decided to keep our damned opinions to ourselves and went along. The one time I got roughed up I knew very well how to avoid it and simply chose not to.

I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet

[Anonymous]

If a parent "takes the fall" for their minor's action, they are demonstrating pure ignorance. Poor parent. Poetic justice.

Restitution is one of the better, most useful 'consequences', because it is directly related to the crime. I steal or break your property- I return or fix it or pay to replace it. Humiliation and shame are not necessary, and an apology should be offered when its genuinely felt. Ideally, the offender would spend time with the victim in order to foster a relationship and hopefully to develop mutual respect. That's usually when a genuine apology will happen. Unfortunately, our society/justice system is so fragmented/disconnected this rarely happens unless the parent initiates it, for their child's education.

Parents may cover the initial financial outlay, but the kid should be expected to pay it back. To do otherwise is to condition the kid to be dependent and irresponsible. Doesn't teach any useful social skills. Anytime you do for someone what they can do themselves, you are creating an invalid. (Yes, I know the term is not PC) It doesn't take a program to teach these life skills.
Programs are a punishment totally unrelated to the 'crime or offense'.

By the time my son recovered from 'PTSD' that he aquired in a program, he owed me several thousands of dollars, eight, if memory serves. He paid that debt, even though it took him until he was 21.

[Anonymous]

Antigen,
By no means was I implying that the "basic rights" of an adolecent are all a parent should do for their kids. But by law it is what it is. I think alot of the progblems we have as a society are based off the fact that parents dont have to provide more than that. They sit their 3 year olds in front of a tv all day and dotn spend time wiht them and let them see they are special and loved.

I know it isnt all the time a parent is responsible. You get plea agreements, soemtimes you get a nice judge who can work with the family. But when it comes down to it, court costs alone are way more than a kid can pay for, even wiht a part time job, and since a parent is the legal gaurdian and is reponsible for said child they have to make sure the fines are paid.

He definetly needed to have some sort of pentaly for his crime. He was drining under the influence of pot. I dont think him smoking pot was a crime, but he was endangering his and others lives. But he had started his drug classes before he went to sentancing, he had started community service and school. He took initiative to show the judge he was trying. But the judge didnt care. So yes he was doing something wrong, but no i dont think he should have gone to jail for it.

Did you not go to any school before phase 3?

The staff memebers thought up what would be fun for us to do and if you were on an upper phase you signed up on a sheet and went to that community service or to that activity. We had a staff that went with us. I am not sure what oyu mean by "did you say you wanted to go back to school and staff denied permission". We went on these activities usually after the school day. Sometimes during but for an hour or so. If you were on the sign up list, then you went. They didnt announce it. When it was time to go, the staff called for that activity and if you were going you gathered in a group and went in a van to the place.Community service was completely voluntary. If you didnt want to go, you didnt sign up. But I wanted to do it so I went. Another cool thing I did in the program was there was a high school near my facility and a couple of friends of mine who played soccer wanted to use the field in the morning before school to run around the track and play. We had to get up early to make it back for brakfast, but it was alot of fun. The staff members who took us were great. They could have said no because of how early it was and it was a ways down the road, but they were more than happy to come and played with us sometimes.

I went to school at the facility from day one. So you didnt have to be on any phase to do that. I just didnt talk to my group about stuff I didnt want to . my therapist was understanding and made the touchy stuff private. If I chose to share, the group was (for the most part) very understandign as well and listened well.

YOu choose out of a seminar if you dont want to do it. YOu can leave if you want. oyu had to write an essay abou why you chose out and read it with the therapist. I chose out and my therapist didnt do anything. If I didnt like the facilitator than I wasnt going to sit through a seminar listening to their bullshit. I only likes one facilitator and graduated each seminar wiht her. I was on phase three going through accountability and Lou was my facilitator. She was awful so i chose out. My therapist froze me on my phase (and since oyu had to go through accountablilty to be on the next phase, it didnt matter much)and I went the next time wiht Jan, the one I like, and graduated. I actually basically skipped level 4. I was on it for a week I think and my therapist moved me up to level 5 and sent me to the higher phase facility.

We would play a game, read stuff to each other (I love Dave Barry so i would read his collums and that was a hit) we would talk about our week, how we were doing in school, ect. We had room night at the upper phase facility so phase 3-6. Ususally you went to the facility on phase 4, but exceptions were made. If you didnt want to talk, which happened sometimes, you just read a book or did homework or whatever you wanted. We listened to the radio or watched tv too.

I would have HATED going to school in public while in the program. That would have sucked alot. I was glad to go to school on facility grounds.

I was there 14 months. I cant reall ycount how many times I left the grounds. Alot after phase 4. Not so much before that. We did leave for planned stuff though, yes, unless you were in the college program. They basically lived in a duplex near the community college. I wnet on 2 home passes, one to Colorado to stay a week with my Mom, one to colorado again to stay a week wiht my Dad and step mom. I also went on regular passes after phase 3 wiht my Mom and Dad. They woudl come to La Verkin to take me away and we woudl spend weekends together here and there. I also got to spend visits wiht my brother and sister and her new baby.

I remember soem kids talking about high impact. Sounded horrible. If the kids at CCM were not doing well in the program, they woudl send them there. After a few paretns found out what it was about they couldnt send the kids there anymore. So I dont hink they do that now. The tried to do that for a month or so. I can say that it was pretty rare to get sent to another program. mostly kids got sent to ours.

[Anonymous]

I comletely agree wiht you annonymous. There shoudl be natural consequences to go alon wiht the action. But when your poor (like me) it is not really easy to pay off thousands of dollars in court costs. Not to mention the heartache of having to go to court wiht them and see them in that position. Not fun.

What is PTSD?

I have had to pay off some debts to my parents. Fortunatly now, I am paying off a home loan, not a court cost loan or anything like that. I think PSTD means post traumatic stress disorder? I am sorry your sons experience at his program was so horrible. Which program did he go to?

[Anonymous]

Antigen,
I am responding to your post to Perri about Juvi. Truthfully, when I was sixteen, only 2 kids i knew ent to jail. But now, almost all of my old friends from high school have would up in jail now that they are older and doing the same crap. Interesting i think. I remember several times almost getting into serious legal problems and was rescued by nice people. For instance I got drunk at school and of course was caught. But they didnt call the police on me. Again at the same school, they had evidence i was selling meth on school grounds. They searched me and found a knife and alcohol. no arrest. In high school I was caught smoking pot on campus. No arrest. I also got caught on the last day of school in Jr high smokin on campus and had drug pariphinallia (did I spell that right?) and again, no police were involeved. So I can say luck played a part for me anyway.
Amanda

[Anonymous]

Timoleca,
I agree with you. even the programs that have the righ tidea (like CCM) still need reform.

Its true that a paretn shouldnt make all a child decisions for them. But isnt it true that your paretns sometimes know better. They dont say that stuff to make you angry or to hurt you. they say it because they care and love their kids. Personally I think if you teach your children well from birth on, they are more likely not to want to hang out wiht "Jhonny' in the first place. Kids find trouble when their bored. I know I did. If you teach them to be crative, to get involved in their community, to get involved wiht the world they probably wont even want to mess around wiht that stuff. I think the problem is parents set up their kids for failure and then want to fix it when its out of control. I think the reason I did so wel in the program was because I am a good person who did bad stuff. I wasnt a bad person acting good. Im not saying all kids who do bad in the program are bad at heart. Especially if you went to an abusive program, it would just make oyu more angry and insecure. But I think my parents did a good job of showing me right and wrong. They showed me I was loved. They did alot of good for me./ I just chose to ignore them as an adolecent. So sometimes oyu can do it "right" and still not have children who believe in themselves. But for the most part, I dont think parents try that and when their kid is out of control they have to use extremem measures to help them. I woudl be resntful of going to the program if my parents had been awful to me and were sending me there to fix their mistakes.

Have you heard of the V chip?

Not that I think the V chip is cool, but there are ways.

Also if you teach your kids to like themselves and respect heir minds and bodies, they wont want to watch crap on tv or listen to crap music or read crap magazines. I know a big issue of mine is pornography and strip clubs. I dont consider myself a feminist because i dont liek labels, but I think it is horrific and disgusting to teach our society that it is ok to treat women that way. and to teach women that it is ok fo rthem to do that to themselves. I am so adimently against this that i would be unbelieveble insane if my daughter ever got involved wiht anything liek that. Woudl I be able to stop her if she was over 18? Hell no. But if shes under 18 Im going to try all I can to steer her away from that. I think if a kid is expressing themselves though music or cloths thats one thing. But to live out a lifestlye that is unhelathy simply because you want to fit into an image is stupid. I will of course teach my daughter to respect herself, to know herself, to creativly express herself through art, music, sports, writing, whatever. But I think we are forgetting one thing. These parents who try to control their children arent mean evil control freaks, or trolls as you all put it. They are concerned and loving parents who hate to see their kids get hurt. Everyone has to fall, but to toatlly bust you head open on the concrete after falling over and over agin is not necesary. Kids are smart. Smarter then parent ralize. alot of kids just want to be heard, to be given a choice, to be given space. But if oyu cant handal space and privlege wihtout destroying your life, then maybe they shouldne get as much freedom. Do you agrre or not?

For sure. Kids SHOULD question the government, the school system, life. It is natural and necessary. They shold be free to express their feelings, as long as they arent hurting anyone by physically taking their feelings out on others.

I did think it was lame that it was a rul you couldnt talk bad about the president or the US of A. Fuck that. The government is the most corrupt agency alive and the president is a bunghole. I should have the right to express that. But look at our society outside the program. I will probably be on some government watch list for saying htat about Presidente Bushie. We are having our rights to free speach taken away as we speak by our government. Look at the patriot act. It isnt just a program thing, its and America thing. Granted, we have more rights than some, but we are not totally free to do whatever we want and say whatever we want. Did you know that the governemt can listen to your conversations without telling oyu if they deem it necessary? They can search your house too. Lunacy.

It is one thing to bitch about somehting and it is completely different to get involved to change it. Why do you think the President is still the president? Cuz no one wants to join up and kick him out. They think it is someone elses problem. Someone else will handel it. I think actions speak louder than words. Its like if you hate the president but didnt vote, dont bitch about it. If yuor not will ing to change the thing you hate, than whining will accomplish nothing but making oyu more unhappy about it.
Everyone can bitch if they want but at least try to find a solution instead of contributing to the negativity. Thats why I greatly admire all the people on this forum who were mistreated and are in a small way trying to change that. That is awsome.
Amanda

"If you- symbolicly speaking- get thrown in a tumbler (like a stone), it depends fully on yourself if you get crushed or if you come out of it a polished, sparkling diamond."
-Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

[Antigen]

Ok, so except for the strip search, being locked in and prohibited from unmoderated communication, the line-ups and such, CCM is nothing at all like other WWASP programs. So how does it work? What's the method of therapy by which you girls were transformed from smelly, angry, trecherous animals to nice young ladies?

Serious quesion. Do you understand how the program works? And what do you have to DO in order to attain a higher phase and gain back your basic rights?

Re your question re school in Straight, absolutely NO school till third phase. No reading anything, not billboards or cereal boxes or anything till 2nd phase. You could read a Bible on 2nd phase, that's it. If I remember right, no reading anything but Bibles and school books till 4th phase. And no tv or radio till 4th either.

After that, it got really tricky. You could, theoretically, watch, read or listen to anything you wanted to except for a few stations and things that were specifically prohibited. But you could also be confronted for choices that anyone (parent, staff, fellow phaser or sibling) thought might not be "in your best interest" or "an old druggie tie". So you had to be careful w/ your selections and always, always, no matter what, prepare a defense in your mind in case you did get confronted. At the same time, you had to be on the lookout for other kids doing or saying questionable things. If someone else turned them in and they realized that you might have seen it too, then you'd get confronted for cliquing (which they always spelled "clicking", but nobody ever had the guts or the masochistic tendancies to want to correct them)

But I think both of you (or are there three of you posting now?) have mentioned that there were kids who didn't belong there. Ashley, I know, has mentioned kids w/ serious mental problems who just didn't benefit and shouldn't have landed there. What about kids who land up there because their parents are over reacting? How do they fare? What if a kid goes in and, from day one, just insists that there's nothing wrong with them, they didn't deserve the strip search or restrictions and just refuses to confess to a problem they don't have. What happens to them?

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

Well, I dont know about the nice young ladies part   :smile:, but I can say Im much nicer any way. I dont know if I can get into my entire expereince at CCM right now, but it works like this. You go to school, have fitness (where you go outside and play basketball or whatever) eat, have individual and group therapy, ect. Its pretty scheduled till you go to high phase. It is a facility near the low phase. Its a pretty cool old building. On the higher phases you get more freedom. Not alot of schedule. They still tell you when to eat and stuff, but you get a longer time to eat and stuff. And you dont have to clean as well. I think high phase was trying to get the kids more used to structuring themselves and get used to going out in public, doing your own thing. We did seminars, which I thought were cool. Discovery was a big thing for me. I liked it and stuff. Focus was cool too. Accountability was super lame and I hated it. Some of the Keys seminars we did were pretty interesting. We did one which was a personality test kind of thing. I learned alot about my strengths and weaknesses. Im not sure if I get the entire spectrum of why it works. I just know that the staff at the progrm were really great, for the most part. Soem people were there that really sucked, but they usually left or got fired. The girls could have a voice in the program. I remember one girl who was super defiant and got in trouble all the time. She was a really misunderstood person, but still could get on my nerves too. This one staff memeber we had was a total asshole and tried to get her in trouble all the time. But when she was unfairly punished, she and other girls would stand up for her. We were like a team. We really cared abou teach other. For the most part if we saw something unreasonable, we could discuss it with staff or radio 3 and could get it fairly sorted out. There were times there where I didnt even feel locked down. In my particular group we had what was called leadership commitee where 3 girls on any phase who were showing any signs of leadership would be on a comitte. each person in my group got a job so to speak. OYu knwo now that i think about it, I cant really remember each individual job. I just remember it being pretty cool that the group got to do some creative thinking to come up with group jobs to make being there more fun. not stupid jobs like who cleans, making sure everyone does good, ect. My old friend from my group just contacted me a while back. Ill call her to see if she remembers some of it. My therapist also held a group called ST. George group, where girls on the leadership commitee and girls on the upper phases in my group got toghether 2 times a month and watched amovie and ate junk food. I remember the first time I went was the first time in like 3 months that i had ginger ale. My therapist brought me some just for me everytime after that. He was a really cool guy.

Basically, you graduate the seminars then you go up for a phase with your group. If you got he majority you got the phase until you went up for 5. then you had to have the whole group vote you in. I spent alot of time wiht the girls in my group and got the phase every time I went up. We wore slippers until phase 3. then we wore sandals. We got to crotchet on phase two. Mostly you got alot of privleges on the upper phases (3-6) When you got on phase 3 you got to work in the kitchen. It was actually awsome cuz you could eat as much as you wanted (within reason. oyu coulsnt stuff yourelf till you puked or anything) Plus between meals and stuff you got to sit and chill outside and eat and talk. We still had to go to school while working in the kitchen, but it was fun.

I cannot BELIEVE you couldnt read! NOw that is some shit. Everyone shoudl be able to read for chrissake! We could read as much as we wanted. We actually had a nice library on the facility property where you could check out books, do homework, ect. No one ever had to read the bible. Im sure since it was all oyu could read, you did. But we could read whatever as long as it wasnt pornography or anything. My therapist actually was writing a book on drugs and had me do some research. We coudnt listen to the radio till phase 3 either, but no restrictions on stations. No TV till phase 4 either.

Its funny you say that about the staff kind of tricking oyu into making oyur own choice so you could get in trouble. Not so much there. I remember my friend Paula. She was so funny and really sarcastic. She liked all this stuff that I thought was so bad. Like Eminem for instance. And I was a "hippi" so to speak before the program so I liked stuff she thought was stupid. But we never got each other in trouble for it. I was listenening to the radio one day, and since I cant stand much other thatn rock, classsic rock, and classical music, we mostly listened to the classic rock station. I remember her giving me so much crap about listening to it saying I was "in my image" but it was for fun, not serious. They expected at the higher phase, girls coudl decide what was "working or non working", so they left it up to us. I was really intent at the time on not doing anything I thought would threaten my ability to stay sober so I just didnt watch or listen to anything that made me uncomfortable.

I knew of one girl who shouldnt have gone. I got a really odd feelig about her though. Like she was off, but just not off enough to go there. She left after 3 months. They ususally realize that they made a mistake and take the kid out. I remember the reason that girl left was because my therapist decided she didnt need to be there and told the parents to take her home and get individual therapy at home. I went through a week long tesing period wiht a different place to see if I needed o tstay there. They did psychological testing, had therapy, ect. It was a trial period and after that They decided and my paretns decided i needed to be there. I knew before they even said it that I was staying. Ive met girls who had been there for 2 years. If you dont go wiht the program you just stay kinda stuck there. My good friend from the program who i still talk to told me her group tried to make her have serious problems. She was there for a crazy reason, which I cant really explain in detail, but it wasnt for drugs, alcohol, rape, any of that. She benifited from the program, but it always annoyed her that they tried to make her worse than she was. Her therapist understood after a whle she was telling the truth and let it go. So they may try, but if your being honest, they can tell. I can honestly say I didnt meet many kids who didnt go there for serious problems. meth addicion was big, alcohol abuse, sex with multiple partners (some at the age of 14!) other drug abuse, problems wiht the law, depression, suicidal tendancies, ect. I can say not many people didnt have a problem to work out. But many didnt want to get better so there you go.

"Even a seed must experience its own version of pain as it pushes through dark soil and cracks open its outer husk to emerge in a burst of green growth into a vast new world of warm sunlight."
-Alexandra Kennedy

[Antigen]

What do you guys think of this gal

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&7

More posts by kcadams1980

http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?m ... &user=1626

I think you might actually know her from your time at CCM. Weren't you guys there about 5 years ago? I'm trying to contact her and see if she wants to weigh in.

Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte

[Anonymous]

I dont know her. I was there 4 years coming up on 5. I read some of her stuff and what can I say? It sounded like her main problem was wiht the seminars. Isnt that something al the programs did? I also must say she seems pretty pissed off. I didnt have the same expereince as her. She hated the seminars, I didnt. but if I had to have David Gilcrese as my facilitator I probably woudl hate the seminars too. I really dont like that stinky man. I also do agree that the progam, as clost to ok as it is, needs to have some reform. I think points of it are right on. I think alot of stuffa bout it was great. But there needs to be reform as wiht anything in life. As times change, you also change wiht the times. I am a little saddened by her hostility. I think she has every right to feel any  way she wants to about the program. I would like to heare about what else made her change her mind so to speak. But she also did those things on her own. YOu do get "chosen out" too. They basically kick you out if they feel you need to not be there. But I did opt out, becaus eI felt I could learn nothing from Bill or Lou. She is right. If oyu dont graduate the seminars you dont move up. But I didnt think I did the seminars perfectly. YOu dont have to do them just the way they want to graduate.

On the brainwashing bullshit (because thats what it is) it is entirely not true. If she felt she was faking her "success" then thats her problem. No one forced her ot go on a talk show and lie abou thow she felt. Certinly after I was home for a bit, I changed somewhat. I listened to stuff I wouldnt have in the program. I hung ot wiht old friends from the past. But in my heart and in my mind I am who I was then. I feel I am stronger as an individual now. Partly because of the progam and partly because I am more mature. But I do feel it needs soem reform and I do feel it is the only program I know of that is even close to making sense and working for kids.

Amanda
"Just as whole forests burn to the ground and eventually grow anew, just as spring follows winter, so it is natures way that through it all, whatever we suffer, we can keep on growing."
-Judy Tatelbaum

[The Liger]

On 2005-04-15 20:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"On the brainwashing bullshit (because thats what it is) it is entirely not true. If she felt she was faking her "success" then thats her problem."

I think the point about brainwashing is that you're NOT faking it.  You really believe the program rhetoric.