Author Topic: Methods and Techniques (Read 31631 times)

Troll Control · « **Reply #30 on:** April 23, 2005, 03:37:00 PM »

Quote

On 2005-04-23 12:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Mrs. Gray, you may say whatever you like. Just don't tell blatant lies about me and expect me not to respond. You say that I SAID I WROTE THE PARENT MANUAL (I re-posted what I said and nowhere does it say that) and used that blatant lie to form some really misguided opinions (your "A B C's" of ignorance).

You just called me a liar. You are wrong and full of shit. Plain and simple.

I personally do not care who you think did what when. I was there, I did my job, and one of my jobs was to write the policy and procedure manual.

As I recall, you were NOT THERE. How can you then come in here and tell me that even though you weren't there, didn't know what was going on and had no insight or access, that I am wrong?

Did you meet twice weekly with Dr. B? No. I did.

Did you meet daily with the headmaster? No. I did.

Were you involved in any way regarding the policies of HLA? No. I was.

Did you intake kids? No. I did.

Did you work with any kids? No. I did.

Did you train staff? No. I did.

So, for someone who has had literally and figuratively, NO EXPERIENCE, you sure shoot off your mouth a lot.

Why don't you get honest with the people here and tell them that you have no basis for making the statements that you make?

In what way does being a part-time secretary qualify you to discuss the efficacy of a residential treatment facility?

You're ignorant to the facts and do not want to be educated to them, so you simply misquote and lie. If and when you can break that habit, we can argue productively, as I do with many others on this board.

I'll be honest with you though. You really don't have the mental capacity to debate me on this subject. Three degrees and a decade of experience lend me understanding that you simply do not have (and apparently wish never to have, based on the fact that you don't even read for comprehension) and will not have any time soon.

How would you feel if I told you how to mop a floor or do laundry or take a memo? Let's face the facts: that's where your experience is, not in treatment modalities.

"

Sorry, that post is me...

SHH Anon Classics · « **Reply #31 on:** April 23, 2005, 03:53:00 PM »

What exactly do you know about me? do you know what my line of work is now? NO. Do you know what I did exactly back then? NO. Do you know how often I did speak to Dr. B on a weekly basis? NO. Do you know how often he visited my home? (often) NO. DO you know how often I visited his home? NO Do you know how much I know through my ex husband's many many hours at the school? NO. I was a clerical asst for the school because I had computer and typing skills they needed. My career experience is in banking and I have 21 yrs of it. I mop my own floors and do my own laundry but I am no secretary. And how does having 3 degrees make you any more important? You make yourself sound as if you were the only one doing work at the school back then. Did you stay up all night making sure the dorms had kerosene heaters or firewood when the ice storm hit? Did you miss vacations for years at a time because the school needed you there? Did you go into work at 6:45 am and not get home until after 7 pm every night? I think NOT. You werent the only one working D. IF you will recall, the school only opened with something like 12 kids and only had about 50 or 60 by the time you left. OH yea you worked so hard didnt you. I was there at the school quite a bit, ate there, lived there, heard about issues every single day from my husband, knew Dr. B very well, and just because I was not a counselor does not mean my opinions have no value. But you did not write those manuals by yourself because I know who did and it wasnt you. I see I had to repeat that statement. Dont give these parents the illusion that you were OH SO important at the school because it is a misrepresentation of what your true job role was. That was my point. I did have access, and I did have experiences, but just because I didnt attend every counselor meeting with you doesnt mean my opinion doesnt matter. How condescending of you I mean REALLY. How does continuing to berate me and calling me an idiot solve anything? Makes you feel more important and powerful I guess.....Whatever.

OH and by the way, I am STILL not Mrs. Gray, I am SHH. Try to remember that please.

Troll Control · « **Reply #32 on:** April 23, 2005, 04:02:00 PM »

Quote

On 2005-04-23 12:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What exactly do you know about me? do you know what my line of work is now? NO. Do you know what I did exactly back then? NO. Do you know how often I did speak to Dr. B on a weekly basis? NO. Do you know how often he visited my home? (often) NO. DO you know how often I visited his home? NO Do you know how much I know through my ex husband's many many hours at the school? NO. I was a clerical asst for the school because I had computer and typing skills they needed. My career experience is in banking and I have 21 yrs of it. I mop my own floors and do my own laundry but I am no secretary. And how does having 3 degrees make you any more important? You make yourself sound as if you were the only one doing work at the school back then. Did you stay up all night making sure the dorms had kerosene heaters or firewood when the ice storm hit? Did you miss vacations for years at a time because the school needed you there? Did you go into work at 6:45 am and not get home until after 7 pm every night? I think NOT. You werent the only one working D. IF you will recall, the school only opened with something like 12 kids and only had about 50 or 60 by the time you left. OH yea you worked so hard didnt you. I was there at the school quite a bit, ate there, lived there, heard about issues every single day from my husband, knew Dr. B very well, and just because I was not a counselor does not mean my opinions have no value. But you did not write those manuals by yourself because I know who did and it wasnt you. I see I had to repeat that statement. Dont give these parents the illusion that you were OH SO important at the school because it is a misrepresentation of what your true job role was. That was my point. I did have access, and I did have experiences, but just because I didnt attend every counselor meeting with you doesnt mean my opinion doesnt matter. How condescending of you I mean REALLY. How does continuing to berate me and calling me an idiot solve anything? Makes you feel more important and powerful I guess.....Whatever.

OH and by the way, I am STILL not Mrs. Gray, I am SHH. Try to remember that please. "

Again, you know nothing. EVERY counselor meeting? How about ANY counselor meeting? You never were in even ONE SINGLE MEETING that I was in.

You make yourself sound like you were an "insider" because you had SOCIAL contact with a few employees.

AGAIN, YOU NEVER WORKED WITH ANY KIDS, EVER. How much clearer can it be?

And, no I am not more IMPORTANT than you, just infinitely more qualified to discuss this topic. Infinitely more educated (10 years versus ZERO years) and infinitely more qualified.

Like I said, you may know how to do laundry better than me, but you certainly don't know how to deliver mental health care. What a JOKE that you would even insinuate that.

Go study up for a few years, get a job for a few years THEN come back and we'll talk.

:wave:

SHH · « **Reply #33 on:** April 23, 2005, 04:40:00 PM »

I never claimed to be a counselor did I. And 7 years associated with the school DOES make me an insider, or was one anyway the years I was there. Cant claim to be one now obviously. My ex-husband, and father in law, and mother in law were all employees of the school. Mother and father in law were there from 1995-2001. Ex is still there. Not a counselor no, but a part of the school nonetheless. What we are discussing here is experiences with the school, and opinions. I am not making claims on how to take care of children with mental health issues am I? No.I am stating my opinion and observations. I dont have to have a degree in mental health to discuss the school. Are you going to tell these parents or prospective parents they cant have an opinion either? or the students? I have just as much right to discuss issues on this board as any other person. I never asked you not to post on here but you keep on repeating that I shouldnt post. Sorry, aint happenin' dude. Get used to it.

Antigen · « **Reply #34 on:** April 23, 2005, 07:55:00 PM »

This is so typical. SHH, ask your husband about information control at The Seed. The intake coordinator thought she knew what was going on. So did the volunteers who made all those sandwiches for lunch. Of course, the parents thought they knew what was going on, after all, they had these kids living in their homes for many months at a stretch.

But nobody knew it all. There were spoken and unspoken rules about giving away too much information. And, of course, that sappy, halcion smile (shiny face) was requisite. So many people who thought they knew what the hell was going on, and were every bit as indignant as you are when challenged.

Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.

greenarrow · « **Reply #35 on:** April 23, 2005, 09:59:00 PM »

Hidden Lake Academy is an excellent school. After reading some of the negative things here I know that the writers are disgruntled rabble-rousers that are simply making things up, in hopes of discouraging those of us who like the school and those of us who have been helped by the fine counseling team and teachers at Hidden Lake. You can read the anger and hostility in their words, I really feel sorry for them and hope one day they get the help they really need. These writers are playin on the fears of families looking for help. I love HLA!

juniper · « **Reply #36 on:** April 24, 2005, 12:48:00 AM »

Really! Why?

??

Deborah · « **Reply #37 on:** April 24, 2005, 01:07:00 AM »

Thanks for sharing.
But who is really playing on parents' fears?

I don't speak for anyone but myself when I say that I am here to share my experience, which is every bit as valid as yours, and to have discussion. You, and others are free to make the choice you deem appropriate.

I am not an angry, rabble-rouser, simply making things up. In effect, you have called me (and others) a liar. And that, is what incites the frequent and harsh responses.

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but that is exactly what happens in HLA and other BM facilities. The teen is told they are a 'liar' and 'need help'. Your shade-tree evaluation is not welcomed, thanks. And at the risk of sounding harsh, I would think that it's the parent who abdicates parental responsibility who 'needs help'.

You do not KNOW that others are lying. You have no way of knowing if peoples' stories are true or not. The truth is, you HOPE they are. Time will tell.

You also don't KNOW what your child is experiencing on a daily basis. To pretend that you do, is a lie. You KNOW what you are told.

Antigen · « **Reply #38 on:** April 24, 2005, 03:56:00 AM »

Quote

On 2005-04-23 18:59:00, greenarrow wrote:

"After reading some of the negative things here I know that the writers are disgruntled rabble-rousers that are simply making things up, in hopes of discouraging those of us who like the school and those of us who have been helped by the fine counseling team and teachers at Hidden Lake.

Get over yourself already! You're very obviously a lost cause. We're talking to sane people who want to actually think about things before jumping in. And for your kid and other kids who's parents will just never understand. And for the whole body of the netizens of Cyberia who, for whatever reason, just want to know more. And for lawyers and journalists who want to better inform public policy and opinion.

News flash! It's not about YOU!

The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.

--Thomas Jefferson

Troll Control · « **Reply #39 on:** April 24, 2005, 09:47:00 AM »

Quote

On 2005-04-23 13:40:00, SHH wrote:

"I never claimed to be a counselor did I. And 7 years associated with the school DOES make me an insider, or was one anyway the years I was there. Cant claim to be one now obviously. My ex-husband, and father in law, and mother in law were all employees of the school. Mother and father in law were there from 1995-2001. Ex is still there. Not a counselor no, but a part of the school nonetheless. What we are discussing here is experiences with the school, and opinions. I am not making claims on how to take care of children with mental health issues am I? No.I am stating my opinion and observations. I dont have to have a degree in mental health to discuss the school. Are you going to tell these parents or prospective parents they cant have an opinion either? or the students? I have just as much right to discuss issues on this board as any other person. I never asked you not to post on here but you keep on repeating that I shouldnt post. Sorry, aint happenin' dude. Get used to it. "

More useless, bandwidth consuming, ignorant drivel...

Troll Control · « **Reply #40 on:** April 24, 2005, 10:12:00 AM »

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On 2005-04-22 16:35:00, Libra wrote:

"Any positive reinforcement or reward system is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. I don't think it takes B.F.Skinner to see that. "

This statement is pretty well divorced from reality.

Time and time again, it has been shown that positive reinforcement is the best way to achieve lasting change in behavior.

In fact, B.F. Skinner himself HAS documented this phenomenon. Rats that were trained to press a lever (behavior) to recieve food (positive reinforcement) learned the behavior rapidly and continued to exercise the conditioned response (lever press) for long after the reinforcement ceased.

In addition, Skinner also showed the poor conditioning effects of negative reinforcement (i.e. the REMOVAL of an UNPLEASANT STIMULUS upon the performing of the desired behavior). Rats were trained to press a lever to alleviate an electic shock delivered to them in the "Skinner Box." When the electric stimulus was halted by the examiner, so was the conditioned response (lever-pressing).

Now, in the context of BM "schools" like HLA: Children are berated and abused until the desired behavior emerges (i.e. indefinite "restrictions" were lifted upon "conformance.") This is the same as "negative reinforcement" (the removal of an unpleasant stimulus when the desired response is generated). This model is proven ineffective in rats and humans.

Positive reinforcement systems such as a "Token Economy," in which the subject earns "credits" (tokens) for desired behaviors and can later redeem those credits for privileges that they enjoy (a new book, tv time, a game of billiards, etc) are some of the MOST EFFECTIVE forms of shaping behavior. The token economy, coupled with strong "modeling" by adults works best for these kids.

Also, it has been proven incontrovertibly that IGNORING an undesired behavior is the fastest route to EXTINGUISHING it.

So, any intelligent person can see that strong modeling, positive reinforcement and ignoring undesired behaviors is the MOST EFFICIENT and EFFECTIVE treatment modality.

HLA, in contrast, has WEAK MODELING (counselors yelling, screaming, calling names, changing rules to suit their ends, giving drugs/cigs/dip to favored kids, etc.), NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT("punishment" until desired behavior results, which is NOT LASTING, as referenced above), and ATTENDANCE to undesired behavior (confrontation and punishment) which actually REINFORCES the undesired behavior by rewarding the subject with attention.

THEREFORE, it is ineffective at best, DAMAGING at worst.

It doesn't take B.F. Skinner to see that, now does it...?

Deborah · « **Reply #41 on:** April 24, 2005, 11:13:00 AM »

Libra will have to confirm this, but I interpreted that comment to say "Any positive reinforcement or reward system [at HLA] is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. I don't think it takes B.F.Skinner to see that."
I think s/he concurs with your opinion/ observation DJ.

Troll Control · « **Reply #42 on:** April 24, 2005, 11:25:00 AM »

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On 2005-04-22 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If a child runs off campus, what would you suggest would be the best policy? Let them walk and then call the parents? Let them walk and then call the law? What if they are 14 or 15. What would you suggest the safest way to handle that situation would be? As a parent, I would want to be notified immediately, and the law notified immediately as well to try to find my child.This is clearly not just a "dropping out of school" issue if they live on the campus of a boarding school. I would like some opinion on this subject as to the best scenario for this sort of situation."

I can't comment on what the cuurent "policy" is at HLA regarding runaways.

I can say, however, that when I worked there, we NEVER called the parents. I was told directly by the headmaster NEVER to call the parents unless an injury occurred or the police were involved (we were also instructed not to call police), in which case the "incident" couldn't be hidden.

Basically, there were to be no "outsiders" involved in HLA's business. That's the way they liked it and that's the way they intended it to transpire.

For me, the best way was to just walk with the kid, try to talk to them, and most of all, let them know that I, personally, did not believe in restraint and would never initiate a "physical" with any kid, ever.

In the dozen or so cases of "walk-off's" that I personally dealt with, I was able to get the kid calmed down, opened up and talking and we would simply reverse course and have a "walk-and-talk" back to the campus. I always had the trust of my kids and was able to get them to "do the right thing" through reason, not coercion.

In regard to what SHH said in another post, yes there WERE restraints used to keep kids on campus. I did see that happen a few times with "control freak" staff who were just not going to be defied, even if it meant a "physical." I saw students who were bruised and hurt and completely "shut down" for days afterword. That DID happen, despite the fact that a part-time clerical assistant might not have "seen" it.

A few incidents like the one described above, the fake dgrees, the obvious ignoring of written policies, the lying to parents and students alike, the inappropriateness of staff, the nearly non-existant education provided, and the closed "don't ask, don't tell" demeanor of the executive staff led me to the realization that I could never, in good conscience, stay involved with that place.

That belief has been well reinforced by the absolute horror stories I have heard from kids on this board as well as "my" kids from when I worked there that still write me today to share problems that linger from their HLA experiences.

The best bet is simply not to incarcerate your kid there...

Troll Control · « **Reply #43 on:** April 24, 2005, 11:28:00 AM »

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On 2005-04-24 08:13:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Libra will have to confirm this, but I interpreted that comment to say "Any positive reinforcement or reward system [at HLA] is so insignificant as to be inconsequential. I don't think it takes B.F.Skinner to see that."

I think s/he concurs with your opinion/ observation DJ."

Ohhhhhhh...Ok. Sorry. My fault. I did not mean to "attack" the person (who may actually agree with me), just the (perceived) erroneous behavioral science.

Deborah · « **Reply #44 on:** April 24, 2005, 12:09:00 PM »

Fornits Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Author Topic: Methods and Techniques (Read 31631 times)

Fornits
Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry