Author Topic: My Opinions  (Read 21009 times)

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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2005, 05:40:00 PM »
Yep. Niles I'm not the only successful "success story". I really got to get them on this forum. It would help. Plus hearing it from just me doesn't help.

The more I read about the negative the more I see the positive. You all make it sound like a torture camp. It wasn't for me. I actually had fun and miss it at times.

I think that we have a tendancy to amplify the negative and let the positive diminish.
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Offline ehm

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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2005, 05:48:00 PM »
Were you in Cross Creek? Southern Utah?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2005, 06:22:00 PM »
I don't think Perrigaud is capable of understanding and seeing what went on in there realistically. She screens out everything that challenges her programming, her idea that Cross Creek is a wonderful program that saved her life.
Like those poor kids in Decca Aitkenhead's article, who responded to her "how were you supposed to die?" question with a surprised look, Perrigaud can't even entertain an option contrary to what she's been re-wired to believe.
And like any other WWASPie, she becomes extremely hostile whenever someone challenges her programming.

The sad thing is that people not familiar with the WWASP cult and their method of brainwashing might actually fall for her "I'm strong, I'm self-aware, Cross Creek was paradise, I was horrible before the program and now I'm doing great" act. Sad.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2005, 09:09:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-03-22 13:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

Antigen - what your life be like now if you had not had the experiences you had? Do you think you would be a better person, or happier, or whatever?


Honestly, the way things were going when I was around 12 - 14, yes. I'm as sure as anyone can be that my life was on track and would have been far and away better, hands down, if I hadn't gone into the program.

I was working part time under my dad's supervision (and, to some degree, my brothers... but he was a salesman... they can barely supervise themselves LOL) I was avidly interested in all of the musical and drama courses and activities available in school and from summer programs. I was a health nut. I was very, very little involved in drugs and not at all attracted to the burnout crowd. I got reasonably good grades in all courses, but struggled some w/ algebra. My plan was to go to college, major in something to do w/ music or drama and get a teaching certificate as a fallback.

All that crashed. When I got out of the program I was 2 years behind, and this was just a couple of months before my class graduated. No chance of getting back into that private school anyway. My mother wouldn't even release my school transcripts so I could go to night school in another state. Why would any sane parent deny a request like that? Well, a sane parent wouldn't. But my mother was a Program parent. And so releasing my transcripts, she was told by staff, would have been enabling me (to succeed w/o the program)

Never mind the psych after effects, how I learned to eat shit where I had been well able to hold my own among adults in the workplace or anywhere before. I was whipped, cowed and had forgotten how to even think about anything like high expectations. By the time I began to regain some of my own strength, I was pregnant and obliged to take whatever kind of job would fit around daycare and everything else my daughter would need.

Perri says she was in real trouble before the program. That may or may not be true. I understand completely how one can come to doubt themselves under similar circumstances. For a number of years afterward, everytime something didn't work out, I had to wonder if it wasn't because I really was an addict and didn't know it after all, even though I hadn't had (couldn't afford) any recreational drugs. Program term for that would be "dry druggie".

Yes, indeed, the Program had a horrible impact on me personally and on my life situation. Plus, it cost me my college fund and my inheritance from my grandfather.


I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2005, 09:25:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-03-22 00:56:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"The program hasn't worked for everyone. But do you think it's possible that there are people out there that managed to not get "brainwashed" and instead used it as an advantage in their lives? Could it be that they managed to benefit from the experience? Could it be that later on in their lives they used what they had learned in the program to raise successful kids?


Well yes, of course. There are plenty of people who come through tragic accidents or other trauma and come out of it stronger and with a better apreciation for life than before. But we don't take that as advocacy for throwing someone under a bus in order to straighten out their lives.

And, again, brainwashed is a loaded term. It's useful if everyone is operating from the same definition and sincerely interested in understanding a situation. I think more appropriate terms for this conversation might be effected and affected.

Wittnessing the abuse of your peers has an impact on you. Living under the threat of getting shipped off to some horrible place like TB has an impact. Enforced silence (even if it didn't extend to higher levels of the program) has a profound psychological impact. Inability to express your true feelings or reaction to situations and not being able to get natural, spontanious social proof from those peers has an impact on the way you think and feel.

I'm glad you didn't let it break you. I don't think I let it break me either. But it has an impact.

Black markets will always be with us. But they will recede in importance when our public morality is consistent with our private one.


http://www.tatteredcover.com/NASApp/store/IndexJsp?s=showproduct&affiliateId=000095&isbn=0618334661' target='_new'>Eric Schlosser, Reefer Madness

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Offline alternativa

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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2005, 09:53:00 PM »
Do you know what the suicide rate is among "surviving" holocaust victims? Do you know any holocaust survivors? Do you know any children of holocaust survivors?

Your comparison may be apt, but you better get over the thinking that people came out of concentration camps feeling good about life.
That's right up there with Black people being thankful for slavery because it gave them a better appreciation of freedom.
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2005, 03:27:00 AM »
Ok. I accept that you all think I am clueless and brainwashed. A WWASPie brainwashed success story. Ok.
I however will never admit to being that. Anonymous I didn't say it saved my life. It helped. And the fact that you'd like to say I'm clueless and I say the program can do no harm proves you're lack of using an open mind. I did say I am aware that abuse happens. As it happens everywhere else. Reread my first post and you will see you stand in the wrong with your false accusations. But if you wish to call me brainwashed and incapable of seeing the truth so be it. In the end that is your opinion in which you are completely entitled to having. I hold true to my opinion that I am a strong individual that took a challenge and used it to my advantage.
Antigen: I never saw any on my peers be abused. I heard of it happening though. Although I forget that what I see as abuse is not the same as others.
Alternativa: As a matter of fact I do know quite a few holocaust survivors and families.  
And yes I was in CCM La Verkin, UT to be exact.
**************************************************
I wish you all good luck in achieving the results you want. Be it shutting the programs down or refining them to be helpful and not abusive. I will always continue to hold true to my opinions even if you all are in utter disbelief and hellbent to prove me wrong. Good luck. I hope these programs do get refined. They can do a lot of good and in that same sense do a lot of bad. I see it both ways. Coming to this forum has helped to open my eyes to the other side of the spectrum. I never understood it before. Now I have a better understanding. And 30 years from now when I am still successful and happy I will remember that there are those who didn't have it the way I did. My heart goes out to them.
**************************************************The reason behind the analogies (be it slavery or the holocaust) is to prove that humanity is stronger than we give it credit. That the human mind is a powerful thing. It can overcome a world of trouble. I believe that as a whole humanity has decreased in it's self confidence.
I believe that we take things for granted a lot of the times. Which I'm sure every generation could argue that their generation was just as rough if not rougher.
Again good luck. I admire youre strength and willingness to fight for what you believe is right.
[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-23 03:41 ]
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2005, 03:35:00 AM »
My act of "I'm strong. I'm self aware" is in fact reality. I have concrete evidence. I don't do drugs, don't drink, I'm honest, have a circle of well rounded friends (no they are not all program graduates), allow myself to make mistakes, have a lot of self earned money, an ever growing education, and most of all I am happy. How many people (program graduates or not) can honestly say that? A lot of times these days they may have a few elements but not all. By this I mean an example would be that an idividual could have a lot of money and yet not be happy. I know that the program is not a necessity for success in life. However, it was an AIDING element in mine. Think what you will. I am a proof kind of gal. Talk is cheap. It's about action, results, and consistancy. Act? You decide. To me all that matters are my results.[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-23 03:45 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2005, 10:18:00 AM »
I understand and even agree that some kids on a self-destructive track benefit from being handled a bit differently from the way we handle kids on an average, reasonably healthy (for a teen) track.

I honestly don't know, Perri, if you *hadn't* been in a program, if just your experiences that you would have had in daily life, along with time to grow up, would have gotten you to a good place.  Nobody can ever know that.

The problem with any treatment for any problem is that it's about numbers:  how many people will benefit, how many people will be the same, and how many people will be harmed versus no treatment or some other treatment.

And knowing those numbers is only the *first* step towards responsible treatment of any human medical or mental health or behavioral problem.

The next step is:  how do we identify the people who are being harmed by the treatment, how do we identify the people who are not being helped by the treatment.

It is a given that once you identify those people you discontinue that treatment and go to the next kind of treatment option we have, if we have one, or admit you can't do anything for them if we *don't* have one.

If you have an alternate treatment that's also more effective than a placebo, you go through the whole process over again with all the folks who didn't benefit from or were being harmed by the first treatment, and so forth and so on.

That's why I *don't* hit the roof whenever someone brings up the nasty side effects of various drugs.  It's because I know that along with those side effect profiles come a list of warning signs to identify when a patient is first beginning to show signs of a bad reaction to the drug and get them safely off of that drug onto something else.  If you had a drug for cancer that 60% of people would develop a penicillin-allergy-like rash to and die of, but 40% would be cured, it would *still* be a safe drug if you could watch closely for the signs of a bad reaction and take all those 60% off when all they had was a slight rash.  You'd still have a 40% cure rate.

The reasoning behind that example is why I'm perfectly okay with a program methodology that is, hypothetically, disastrous for 80% but life-saving for 20%---IF AND ONLY IF we have a way to separate out the 80 from the 20 before any damage is done and we *do* screen them out so we only have the 20 taking the treatment and being helped, and the 80 get screened out and don't get hurt because we know not to give them the treatment.

My huge, ginourmous, deal-breaking problem with the programs is that they're run in a half-assed flying-seat-of-the-pants, dead-reckoning fashion instead of by the reasoned, scientific approach we apply to medicines or physical therapies or other treatment devices when we're treating people's problems.

By that I *don't* mean that the people running them aren't systematically applying some sort of method with some sort of game plan.  They are, just like the pilot that navigates by dead reckoning *is* navigating--just not very well.

I have a huge problem with there being very few long-term studies comparing treatments and placebo-programs for these kids.  I have a huge problem with there being little data to predict which kids will be harmed rather than helped by the treatment of being in a program.  I have a huge problem with there being no safeguards to ensure that the kids we *know* are likely to have adverse outcomes from a specific kind of program don't end up in that particular kind of program.

It would be fairly easy to set up a placebo program.  You set up the sleeping arrangements like a college dorm; the food like a college cafeteria, a regular class schedule; and a bogus non-therapy "therapy"---call it "art group therapy" and give the same group of kids the same time of day access to a room with art supplies and let them paint, draw, model, sculpt, whatever; give the ones on psychiatric care the same psychiatric appointments they'd get if they were outpatient; take them out outside or to a gym to work out on the same schedule as if they were taking PE in high school, plus the teenage daily equivalent of recess; build an allowance into the schedule for phone calls and let them use their phone allowance any way they want; do have the facility locked; do provide suicide watch in a section that works just like regular hospitalization to any kids when and if they need it--or even do the placebo "treatment" in concert with a local hospital and actually hospitalize them when they need it; leave them to clean their dorm rooms or not, to do their own laundry in coin operated machines--with a laundry allowance, and have cleaning staff clean the rest of the place, make the food, do the dishes, etc.  This is basically, you're locked in a "safe" little mini-college and given benign neglect.  No actual "treatment" distinct from normal outpatient care.  A placebo.

Then you have something to contrast with any facility you want.

You could do it quite ethically as a federally funded study and offer the parents service in either facility at one fourth cost (with insurance perhaps picking up some or all of that) so long as they accept that it's random whether the kid goes into the treatment or the placebo facility.

*That* would be *one* way of fairly easily getting the data to start doing teen treatment *right*.

But nobody listens to me......

:-/


Timoclea
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2005, 12:41:00 PM »
People do listen to you. It's a lot easier to take in what you say when you come from the purity of your heart. I see your stance. I wish that the subject of maltreatment and hard aftershocks were not at all abundunt. Keep talking. You are not alone in how you think.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2005, 06:10:00 PM »
Quote
I did say I am aware that abuse happens. As it happens everywhere else.
...then...
Quote
On 2005-03-23 00:35:00, Perrigaud wrote:

It's about action, results, and consistancy. Act? You decide. To me all that matters are my results.


Perri, I certainly don't think you're acting.

However, I don't think that the kind of abuse consistenly reported by former students of WWASP and similar programs is anything like what happens everywhere.

Your results and my results are similar. I've been relatively happy for most of my life. Never wealthy (not since I permanently pissed off my rich uncle when I was 14, anyway :grin: ) But relatively happy none the less.

I realized something, though, many years after the fact when I started talking to other Straight survivors and then to survivors of other programs (and survivor is a pretty apropos term, as the failure and suicide rate among us is extremely high!) I had a marked advantage over most of the other kids.

It wasn't just the mentally ill kids or the unusually weak kids who were damaged by the basic program. It was normal kids. I had experience w/ the particular kinds of pressure by way of my history as a younger sister in a Seed family. I was able to let a lot of things roll off that really effected other kids. I think that may be somewhat similar to your early childhood experience having toughened you up. Now, all I remember about your life story is that you were adopted from some very unpleasant part of the world. And I may have that wrong, but that's what I'm refering to, so just smack me and tell me to stfu if I'm out of line.

I don't think it goes so well for everybody else. And I also have this (probably overly maternalistic) concern for you setting yourself up as a WWASP poster child. Nobody leads a charmed life. Some are very fortunate, sometimes things go well, some people work hard and accomplish much. But into every life, some rain must fall, and that's the truth. Now, I don't want you spilling your guts in public every time something bad happens. I just wanted to say... well, you don't have to be perfect.

Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2005, 06:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-03-22 18:53:00, alternativa wrote:

"Do you know what the suicide rate is among "surviving" holocaust victims?


I didn't know anything about that. I do think there are very strong parallels between our society's scapegoating of youth, "drug culture" and non WASPs and that of the Nazis. I didn't know there was a particularly high suicide rate among holocaust survivors, though. I suppose I should have guesed.

Where can I read up?

Janis, Jimi, Gery, Timothy... Did you HAVE to get so close to the edge to get a really good view?
-- Anonymous

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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2005, 07:41:00 PM »
Poster child? I'm not trying to be a poster child. I'm not getting paid for shit. Nor did I ever claim to be one. I don't like b/s I will tell it as it is. No sugar coating and no lies. I am simply trying to educate people on seeing things in all the light. Meaning all the ups and downs. All the positive and the negatives. Knowing one side isn't helpful. In life I try to know the whole spectrum.
I never claimed to be perfect. In fact I have even admitted to having downfalls. Be careful with assumptions. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-23 16:41 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2005, 07:56:00 PM »
Hey ashley. I finally found the forum! I am going to read the rest of what you said and write back
amanda
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Offline alternativa

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« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2005, 12:08:00 AM »
Yeh, they have a very high suicide rate. I've known a lot of holocaust survivors, but I don't know any who thank the Germans for improving their survival skills or giving them a new appreciation on life. I know a woman, who's around 80, and she got sent to Auschwitz when she was a teenager, and every time you talk to her, the conversation becomes about Auschwitz within 15 minutes. Kids from homes of holocaust survivors have no easy time either because the parents often still live in constant fear. I knew someone who had to call home every 10 minutes to let her mother know she was okay. I mean, literally, every 10 minutes. There's always this atmosphere of an impending catastrophe, an opressive sense of impending doom. People like that Yeats quote "Whatever doesn't kill you will make you stronger," but Yeats was a bit of a nut and also a drunk. He also believed he could raise the dead.
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