My Opinions

[Perrigaud]

Timoclea,
  I realize we are all humans. Thank you for realizing what was going on and apologizing. It takes a lot for people to do that nowadays. I myself messed up a day ago when I told someone their point wasn't valid in my eyes.

[Anonymous]

Whether you feel these are valid to you, they are valid in general.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... rt=0&Sort=

These aren't priveleges. With the exception of jewelry and make-up, these are very, very basic human rights.

Not to provide the level 6 "privileges" is what the *rest* of the US calls "child neglect."

If the parents did not do that, in any state I am aware of, child welfare would take the children out of the home for child neglect. Particularly over the shoes issue.

If I provided my child with food that was substantially different and worse from my own food, unless I had consulted a nutritionist and the different diet was medically necessary for her health, I would lose my child and be prosecuted for wilfull criminal child neglect.

If I required my child to go around all day without being able to talk to other people, I would be prosecuted for criminal child *abuse*, if I failed to fix the problem after being warned.

That you think those deprivations are not criminal child abuse and neglect, and are not woefully out of compliance with minimum community standards for how children are entitled to be treated, is [could be] evidence that yes, you *have* been brainwashed.

That you can even for a moment describe them as "privileges"---even in retrospect you don't believe all of them were "right"----is evidence [could indicate] that you have undergone deep and pervasive brainwashing that successfully tampered with your mind.

The abuse and neglect you have suffered has [may have] put you at high risk of abusing neglecting your own children in the false belief that these behaviors are not harmful to the child and are, in fact, acceptable forms of discipline.

I'm so sorry for what happened to you, but you *mustn't* go on thinking those things are okay for fear that you, as an adult with adult responsibilities, harm a child someday.

*NO* child deserves to have the basic social contact of talking to people, shoes, or seeing her parents treated as "privileges" to be withheld for bad behavior. *Nobody* deserves that. It is not helpful or positive to do that to any child.

A rape survivor may be stronger after the rape as a result of recovering from the rape, but that doesn't mean the rape "helped" her.

[Perrigaud]

Well you see it one way and I see it another. I'm pregnant right now. I have no doubt that I'll be a good mother.
Did I ever say that I was going to hold my child to the same standards as WWASP? No. And I don't plan on doing that. My child will grow up to be a wonderful person.
My parents grew up in strict religious families. They like religion but not to the point where I grew up religious. I mispelled that word I know. Anyhow, just because I don't call it abuse doesn't mean I will use it in my everyday life. Please stop with that. It's really annoying.
Brainwashed. Call it whatever you want to. I don't call it brainwash. You do. Fine we'll agree to disagree.
In my opinion the media is more brainwashing then WWASP. And in 20 years you shall have the results of my parenting. And we did get to talk to people. We weren't on silence 24/365. Did you not read my post?

[Anonymous]

No you never said you'd hold your own child to W standards, but then no one said you did.

The point being, many a parent has said that they'd never treat their children the way they were treated. Well, as they often find out, conditioning is not easy to change- it's like one's default drive unless, or until it is reprogrammed. The parent pushed to their limit, in a moment of frustration, out comes the razor strap.

It's a warning Peri. You may not be pulled to treat your child that way. If you are, perhaps you'll get some help. There's also the possibility that if your child pushes you too far, you could (notice I said 'could') determine that s/he indeed 'needed' or 'deserved' to be treated that way.

Every comment made about W is not directed at you, or intended to be a comment about 'your' experience. There are other ex's speaking here that allege to have had a very different experience, which included lengthy periods of silence. "I got to talk to people" would be sharing your experience. "We got to talk to people" is speaking for who? All W programs, your program, everyone's experience?

[Perrigaud]

"The abuse and neglect you have suffered has [may have] put you at high risk of abusing neglecting your own children in the false belief that these behaviors are not harmful to the child and are, in fact, acceptable forms of discipline. "

Hmm. Then why say you? When you do that you direct the statement toward me. Yes of course I know that people have felt victimized by the program. That is how they choose to feel. I don't. I am very patient. And yes my child will be knowing the importance of appreciating life. No I will not be holding them to a level system.
I'd never harm a child. The personal things you bring up are not valid and are quite a low blow. I'd never ridicule your parenting skills especially if I don't know you well enough to say such things.

[Perrigaud]

Oh,and no I was not brainwashed. But again that's how I feel. You are free to feel how you want to.

[Anonymous]

***Hmm. Then why say you?

Well, 'I' didn't say 'you'. Tim did. I added [may have, could have, etc] to de-personalize the comments that I felt were very valid, in general, and not specific to you.

Tim has already apologized for the 'low blow'. Understand this, my point was:
Remove all the personal stuff and some of Tims points are statistically valid. People absolutely are inclined to parent the way they were parented. It generally takes great effort not to do so. That is not to say you won't, or that you won't be a great parent.

[Perrigaud]

Wasnt it you who wrote what I quoted?
In the same respect as we parent as we were parented there are a lot who parent opposite of how they were parented.

[Deborah]

If you are refering to this quote:
 "The abuse and neglect you have suffered has [may have] put you at high risk of abusing neglecting your own children in the false belief that these behaviors are not harmful to the child and are, in fact, acceptable forms of discipline. "

Nope. I added [may have] as a suggestion as to how it could've been phrased.  

I agree. I was one of those parents. And I was only about 85% successful, despite my best intentions, because that 'default drive' I spoke of was stronger about 15% of the time. [ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-03-21 21:33 ]

[Antigen]

I don't know if I buy that anyway.

Over http://www.prisonexp.org/
A Simulation Study of the
Psychology of Imprisonment
Conducted at Stanford University
 


* I think the arcane term for cild advocate was "decent person". And most people are decent people. But we no longer look after the smaller members of our society, because we think that's what the declared child advocates are there for. We're encouraged to call an anonymous tip hotline if we're worried about a neighbor, but not to get to know the neighbors and build the kind of community where kids are pretty well looked after by the whole neighborhood by default.

Screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Cayo Hueso]

:nworthy:  :nworthy: Ginger you've got a knack for cutting right through the bullshit.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.



---Richard Nixon

[Antigen]

Comes from years and years of shoveling it.  :rofl:

Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom.  But the
tumult soon subsides.  Time makes more converts than reason.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679433147/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Thomas Paine, Common Sense

[Perrigaud]

Well you have a point. But I don't think that there is a one-parenting fits all. Of course there are limitations and boundaries. But it's along the line of is it ok to spank your kids? Is it ok to ground them? Does it work for them.
I digress. The program hasn't worked for everyone. But do you think it's possible that there are people out there that managed to not get "brainwashed" and instead used it as an advantage in their lives? Could it be that they managed to benefit from the experience? Could it be that later on in their lives they used what they had learned in the program to raise successful kids? I have seen all of the above. I have friends who now have 20 year olds that are normal. Meaning they had their share of acting out but nothing extreme. I've seen both sides of the spectrum.

[Nihilanthic]

Perrigaud, just because you avoided being unduly influenced and got something out of it (and not being scarred emotionally) doesnt mean its the best thing or even a good thing!

Thats basically been our point all along. You've reconciled your experience, which was totally out of your control, and grew up and turned out for the better. Thats great! Thats also YOUR accomplishment and nobody elses.

People grow and develop and whatnot from all kinds of adversity. But that doesnt mean suffering and going through bullshit is a good thing. Dealing with arbitrary authority and bullshit rules is a good coping skill but ultimately is self defeating. This is the USA, not some fascist state (yet..) and if there is bullshit or arbitrary authority what we're supposed to do is challenge it and change it and FIX IT.

For a kid in a program your only hope is to tow the line and get out. For people out of it, or grown adults past the age of majority with a conscience our job is to fix it, not try to explain away how to get a positive experience out of a expensive multi-year banquet of bullshit.

You dealt with an experience in the best way you could have. But that doesnt mean it was the best experience or even a good one. I'm going through a lot of shit myself because of how much of a total asshole my dad is. Instead of be supportive he was hurtful. And now, hes made a habit of repeatedly suing my mom for all kinds of bullshit, and then suing her (he makes her annual income in two months...) for CHILD SUPPORT after he lied to the cops and stole my sisters. I live with my mom and half-sister now. CPS has successfully fucked over my stepdad but I still see him and he still helps us.

Thats bullshit. Yeah wow I learned how to deal with it and got a few callouses and scars so I'm tougher. But this is not something I shouldn't have to deal with. I shouldnt see my family live in poverty because my mom is paying a rich asshole money. I shouldnt have to be reminded daily about how good it would be if my dad would help instead of TAKE AWAY, and I should be able to FIX IT.

The way I dealt with it when I was out of control of the situation as to just grow a tougher hide. But as soon as I get some degree of control (money for a laywer that my dad consciously takes away from us...) I plan on FIXING IT.

The programs need to be fixed too, perrigaud. And theyre also about people paying rich old farts too much money and kids getting bullshit because of it to one degree or another.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use the Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
--Anonymous

[Anonymous]

Would any of you ever see Perrigaud's view?  I don't think so because all I'm reading is - okay, so you got something out of it - what a negative statement!  You don't want to see that it was much, much better than juvenile jail, living on the streets, or god forbid, going to a short term hospital thing because insurance paid for it.  

I'm sure me as a parent, and Perrigaud as a teen at the time, would have preferred a different scenario, but it didn't happen that way.

Antigen - what your life be like now if you had not had the experiences you had?  Do you think you would be a better person, or happier, or whatever?

I understand, I just don't get it