Who are You to Judge?

[Perrigaud]

I understand that there are those cases in which correctional facilities have abused people. I understand that there are genuine bad experiences. I agree that they need to be addressed.
But to those of you who call the success stories, good experiences, advocates, and graduates of the program brainwashed are being quite judgemental. Who are you to question someones success? If they are honestly happy and doing well what harm does it cause you?
It bothers me that people are so close minded to say that it's all fake. If a drug addict found that religion helped them not do drugs and live a life they always wanted what is the point in saying that it's b/s? If it works for them great.
Attack and question the fact that abuse happens (I'm for that as well). Attack the physical abuse.
The program wasn't the fix it all for me. What it did was offer me insight and a different point of view. It helped a certain percentage, the rest of it was me and other resources. TB, and Casa, I aggree, weren't helpful. I didn't learn a thing at Casa except for compliancy. The emotional clensing is what I needed. I got that at CCM.

[Antigen]

Well the way you tell it, none of the really harmful aspects of the WWASP program are going on at CCM. You just went there and got a good education and some private therapy, right?

So then, why all the expense? Why the restrictions on communication w/ parents? Why force the parents to do the seminars? (it is not voluntary, contact w/ the kid in the program is contingent on completing two greuling out of town seminars)

Is CCM then just stone soup? In that case, the worst aspect of it would be the fraud; they'd be delivering exactly nothing for the base fees. Or is there more going on there than just your typical boarding school w/ therapists?

With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Perrigaud]

Yes and No. Parents are told that the contact will be limited. If I were a parent considering putting my kid in a program I would be sure to do research. Anyhow, it wasn't just a boarding school with therapists. Notice how I refer to it as a program? I would have said boarding school. No, it's about soul cleansing. Fraud? No. My parents were well aware of where I was going. They had done there research. To this day they hold the program as being honest about what was going to happen, what was happening, and also being helpful.
The seminars helped us as a family communicate better. Before the program we used to get into predictable fights. It always ended up in screaming matches, battery, and nothing resolved except for more anger. My parents weren't bad parents we just all needed to work things out. The seminars were like family therapy for us. The restricted contact helped me focus on myself. I wasn't ready to communicate with my parents when I first was in the program. As I progressed through the levels I had more and more interaction. It was better for me this way. It's easier to communicate with a clear mind.

[Anonymous]

Terrific response Perrigaud!  Your parents let go of YOUR program to give you the opportunity to do it for yourself, not for them!

 I've seen what happens when parents want to control their child and the staff.  Not a good thing.

[Nihilanthic]

Perrigaud - your case is a rare one, you must realize that. And our issues with PREVENTING Communication and Contact with the outside world still stand.

And ,the seminars are very much about how the person takes it, its why they are the way they are. I'm glad it worked for you but I'm sure everyone's read those appadavits and whatnot from people who have been in the seminars, and that link I made about how the seminars seem to be a pathlogical thing made by those doctors who themselves admitted they were influenced by the experience.

I myself cant recommend this to anyone. The forceful nature and the extreme secrecy of them make it so that judgementalism isnt really the issue. Its consent. Another prob is a lot of parents do go in uninformed. Yeah, its their fault, but why have the kid potentially end up in a shitty situation?

P.S. - Ginger, sorry, but Perrigaud taught herself out of a book. Thats not a good education.

The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church.
--Ferdinand Magellan, Portuguese and Spanish explorer

[BuzzKill]

//Who are you to question someones success? If they are honestly happy and doing well what harm does it cause you? //

Perri - I personally don't question your success and its not my intent to seem as if I want to devalue it.
I Do think you give the program to much credit. I do think you are one of the lucky ones.
Your success is certainly not harming anyone.
Their success is, IMO, harming many people.
You having gotten some good from your program, does not excuse the great deal of harm many other have received instead, from the same program.
Why do you feel such a need to invalidate their experance?

[Perrigaud]

Buzzkill did you not read the opening paragraph? I said I am aware it happens. I also said that the prevention of the negative needs to be addressed. Don't try and put me in the 100% gung ho program grad that discredits people. Nice try. I really got to get my other successful friends on this forum. I'm not all that rare.
Niles: People will think what they want. However, just as you will stand by the fact that your issues remain I will stand by my iron will to stand by the program.
Again like I've said before reformation is something I'd like to see happen. I never said it was perfect. The schooling? Well yes that's a big one. I'm just quick in my mind. I can read and learn with little or no effort. I've always been book smart.
What now?

[Anonymous]

Sometimes people do not realize the negative effects (that a program) has had on them until years after they leave the program.

[BuzzKill]

//Buzzkill did you not read the opening paragraph? I said I am aware it happens. I also said that the prevention of the negative needs to be addressed. Don't try and put me in the 100% gung ho program grad that discredits people.//

Your right and I owe you an apology.

[Perrigaud]

Anonymous: And other people never had any negative effects at all and are doing great. I know many.

[Anonymous]

Perri,
It is the opinion of some, based on research and their personal experiences, that coercion ultimately has a negative effect, even if it appears to be 'successful' initially. Coercive and therapy shouldn't be used in the same sentence.

There will always be those who feel you are doing well inspite of your experience, not as a result of it. Judgmental? Perhaps. But, it is their opinion, and you are entitled to disagree.

Time will tell.

[Perrigaud]

Time has told and continues to do so. I've been out for a while. I've known many people that have been out for over 12 years and still thank the program. Just as there are those who (based on research and personal experience) have no regrets from the program. There will always be different stances on the program. Of course I'm entitled to an opinion as are you. However, my main goal is to gain insight as well as give it. Could it be that it's not manipulation, abuse or negative? Of course (I'll state this again in case anyone thinks I'm all one sided) there are cases of abuse. And I feel for those victims. But it's not all bad.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-03-13 00:38:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Buzzkill did you not read the opening paragraph? I said I am aware it happens. I also said that the prevention of the negative needs to be addressed. Don't try and put me in the 100% gung ho program grad that discredits people. Nice try. I really got to get my other successful friends on this forum. I'm not all that rare.

Niles: People will think what they want. However, just as you will stand by the fact that your issues remain I will stand by my iron will to stand by the program.

Again like I've said before reformation is something I'd like to see happen. I never said it was perfect. The schooling? Well yes that's a big one. I'm just quick in my mind. I can read and learn with little or no effort. I've always been book smart.

What now? "

Perri--Whether the program methodology helps or not, I will readily admit that some people have parents that are so screwed up that the program is an improvement.

This is not a judgement of their parents as bad people or as not loving their kids---this is just a judgement of *some* parents as screwed up to the point that their kid may (rightly) feel like another pretty screwy environment is, in their case, an improvement.

I will also admit that some teens benefit from being quarantined away from being able to get themselves permanently injured or in irreparable legal trouble before their frontal lobes mature enough to give them adult-level impulse control.

However, even a program that is not abusive to juvenile delinquents like you admit you were, can be harmful to the point of abuse and neglect for people with problems different from the ones you had---just by letting them in the door.

I know you're not necessarily disagreeing with me on this, but I think it's important to keep saying it, over and over again.

So many parents will look at your situation and say, "See, this program helped this Perigaud girl when she seemed hopelessly unmanageable.  I don't know what else to do, or where else will take my kid, maybe they can help my kid, too."

And when their kid has a completely different problem from the one you had, putting that kid in the program could be much worse than just kicking him/her out of the house or turning him/her over to juvie/child welfare as an incorrigible.

And it's possible to know *in advance* if that program is likely to be exceptionally disastrous by paying very close attention to the data and research (what little there is) and the expert opinions of people who say kids with certain problems *should not* be put in the same programs with kids whose problems are primarily juvenile delinquency.

See, your problem was most likely impulse control.  It's a *very* common problem in kids with delinquency issues.  And while you may subjectively feel like you learned a lot in the program, and you may well *have* learned a lot in the program you were in, you *also* had the frontal lobes in your brain---the area that handles impulse control---continue to develop and mature simply by you getting older.

I suspect the *primary* way the program helped you was by protecting you from yourself long enough for you to grow up a little.  Or a lot.  And by giving you rules that as screwed up and unpredictable as they were from arbitrary enforcement and kids making up stuff to snitch, were still probably (I'm guessing) more consistent than what you grew up with.

And I don't discount the value in that.

There are parents out there who screw their kids up completely by providing few to no limits and "discipline" that might as well be random.  I don't know if that happened to you, but it happens.  And fixing the environment the kid is in can do a lot to help the kid grow up.  And some homes are worse than the program---just in the lax direction instead of the strict direction.

But part of the reason people like me have to keep beating the drum is to get the attention of desperate parents and get the message to them that even if their kid does need to be committed or incarcerated, if their kid is mentally ill, they need a different facility that operates by a totally different strategy than the kind of facility that handles delinquency problems.

And even if we get the reforms in place and enforced to curb the direct abuses, that's always going to be true---kids with problems that have very different root causes are going to need treatments and accomodations that structured to properly get at those root causes.

One size does not fit all.

Timoclea

[Perrigaud]

Timoclea,
  I completely agree on the one size fits all falsity. I also feel that those who have mental disabilities do not belong in these programs at all. I am upset that that is the case. Now, when it comes to resorting to severe misbehavior what most people fail to see is that it goes deeper than that. It wasn't impulse control that was my problem (u proved my statement by saying that). It was about me needing to deal with things in my past present and future. Because I held things inside they snowballed until one day I exploded in the worst kind of way. Fears, guilt, shame, unresolved issues are cancerous. Meaning the more they are undealt with the more they spread. There are people out there who don't deal with issues and it ends up consuming them. It doesn't matter if it's a little bit or a lot. What I learned in the program was how to deal with such things. There was a time in my life where I felt so helpless and sad. That eventually turned into anger and hate. Did it save my life? Maybe. I needed someone to help me clear my head. I got more than I ever dreamed. And now, I'm so thankful.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-03-13 11:25:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Timoclea,

  I completely agree on the one size fits all falsity. I also feel that those who have mental disabilities do not belong in these programs at all. I am upset that that is the case. Now, when it comes to resorting to severe misbehavior what most people fail to see is that it goes deeper than that. It wasn't impulse control that was my problem (u proved my statement by saying that). It was about me needing to deal with things in my past present and future. Because I held things inside they snowballed until one day I exploded in the worst kind of way. Fears, guilt, shame, unresolved issues are cancerous. Meaning the more they are undealt with the more they spread. There are people out there who don't deal with issues and it ends up consuming them. It doesn't matter if it's a little bit or a lot. What I learned in the program was how to deal with such things. There was a time in my life where I felt so helpless and sad. That eventually turned into anger and hate. Did it save my life? Maybe. I needed someone to help me clear my head. I got more than I ever dreamed. And now, I'm so thankful. "

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works for a lot of people.  If you were sad, angry, and afraid and the therapy helped you not be, then whether you noticed it or not (the techniques are designed so to some degree you're not supposed to notice it happening or what they're doing to your head, so if you don't remember it this way, it doesn't mean that isn't at least a significant component of what you had) you probably had CBT.

The thing is that teenage rash *acting* from anger and hate and fear *is* about impulse control.  Adults handle it better because their brains are more mature.

But yeah, I don't doubt that you had several problems you needed dealt with.  Most people do.

When we first studied abnormal psych. they warned us about trying to diagnose all our friends with this or that serious mental health problem.  Medical students' malady.  Basically *everybody* has various symptoms of mental illness---the diagnosis is a matter of degree.

What that means is that pretty much everybody can have their functioning in life stabilized some by a competent course of therapy, because pretty much everybody is "the walking wounded" psychologically.

Anyway, all that to say that I can certainly believe you when you say that therapy helped you in multiple ways and that many of your problems were more serious than the impulse control problems that *all* teens have.

I guess what I'm saying is, no matter who you are or what your damage, the mental and emotional turmoil of just being a teenager--which has a lot to do with human biology at that stage of life---makes everything worse for awhile and that when you grow out of your teenage years, a bunch of stuff just automatically improves *to a certain extent*.

We like to think of teenagers as if they are, or ought to be, adults with zits.

Instead, teens are developmentally analagous to two year olds.  At certain ages, they go through certain stages.  Virtually *all* two year olds have problems with tantrums.  Virtually *all* teens have problems with impulse control.  It's a stage we all go through.

This isn't disagreement with what you say about your life.  I don't even know you and I wouldn't be that presumptuous.  I'm just clarifying my mental frame of reference for looking at the teen years and what goes on in them for *any* teenager.

Whatever problems a person has, being a teenager magnifies them or makes them that much harder to deal with.  Growing out of being a teenager improves those problems, at least back down to the baseline level.  Unless the problem is some progressively degenerative serious illness or something.

There are fun things about the teen years, but in a lot of ways, being a teenager just sucks.

Timoclea