Parental defensiveness

[Nihilanthic]

My friend on AIM: "ANNA NO YOU CANT DO THIS" WHO THE HELL IS THAT" "YOU BITCH YOU DIDNT DO THIS IN YOUR HOMEWORK" "THIS IS WHY YOUR SUCH A DUMBASS" and everything else like that

My friend Anna was so distressed she was burning her hand with wax and sniffing pills, so I asked what made her feel bad. she told me it was her dad yelling at her.

Our mutual friend, my best friends mom, cares a lot about her, so I told her. She initially listened but then started getting really defensive and pissed off at me.

She'd say things like "all families have problems".  And discipline isnt abuse... or maybe she makes them yell at her.  That stuff. My point to her was effective parenting (discipline or punishment or wtf ever you call it) doesnt get taken or felt as abuse. Different things feel different to different people. Abuse is how its perceived or taken by the kid. Right?

Maybe they should just not yell at her if it fucks her up so obviously? Thats all I wanted to say. But she kept getting madder and madder at me.

So, I ask if thats the case or if its just me (or her) and if it is a common occurance, could that be part of what the programs play off of to manipulate and get their methods unquestioned?

The social principles of Christianity preach cowardice, self-contempt, abasement, submission, humility, in a word all the qualities of the canaille.
--Karl Marx, German economist and political philosopher

[Antigen]

Yeah, I think that's a lot of it. The parents have done all the punishing they can think of or dare to do and still it's not working. So they look for something stronger. Once the kid's away, they're getting glowing reports, they don't have to see w/ their own eyes how that's accomplished and it all looks good.

A few times, I've asked people I knew when I was a kid what they thought about what was going on w/ me. Most of them said they didn't exactly agree w/ all of it, but they thought I needed help. Most people really don't want to medal in the affairs of others. And that's how it should be. Especially w/ kids. If you're in for a penny, you have to be in for a pound. You can't just mess around a little and then split.

Sometimes, people should intercede. But there are many ways to do that. Rather than be confrontational and insist that the parents are bad or wrong (obviously, they don't want to see that, far less have it addressed by an outsider) why not be a little more subtle? Invite the kid to do some fun things; give her excuses to spend just a little less time in the pressure cooker. Looking back, if I had had a little more of kind of relief that and some understanding of how short a few years really is, I could have made it to adulthood w/ some sanity and avoided the whole Program thing.

Our Constitution is in actual operation; everything appears to promise that it will last; but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300001479/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Ben Franklin Letter to M. Leroy, 1789.

[Perrigaud]

So what would you do if that kid is a stealer or turns out to be a bad influence? What if they act up even more outside of the pressure cooker?

[Anonymous]

They return the stolen property and make restitution, and/or endure the social consequence of that behavior. They look the victim in the eye and apologize.
So many times parents fail to teach social lessons by avoiding what obviously needs to be done. This is not something that suddenly happens. Watch Nanny 911 and SuperNanny.
Confessing, paying restitution vs being punished with some consequence that is unrelated, are the appropriate reaction.
Then its time to unearth the underlying cause of the stealing. That is not going to happen with judgmental confrontation.
If the victim was a neighbor, perhaps the kid would benefit from spending time with that person getting to know them. Paying restitution by mowing their lawn, raking leaves.
The problem is this notion that the consequence must be severe and the punishment-which is all too often unrelated to the 'crime'- be carried out without paying restitution.
You mention elsewhere that you got demerits for 'gossiping about another girl'. That was not teaching. That was an unrelated punishment that didn't involve the supposed victim of your action.
How would it have been if the consequence was to confess to the person what you had said about her and listen to their feedback? For you to elaborate on why you were gossiping and what you have learned about it, and apologize.
Punishment simply doesn't TEACH social skills and respect for self and others. Never has, never will.
Programs and most prisons don't teach, they punish, and the recidivism rates are there to prove it.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-02-17 01:14:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"So what would you do if that kid is a stealer or turns out to be a bad influence? What if they act up even more outside of the pressure cooker? "

Perrigaud, my point was proper parenting, or 'punishment' or 'correction' or 'discipline' is not abusive. Abuse, is abuse, period. If your method of... whichever of those 3 words you use to describe your action is abusive to the child, stop doing it!

Find something else to do.

Its NEVER okay to abuse a child. That man yelling at his daughter that way (those were HER words, Perrigaud) and making her feel so shitty she snorted pills and poured candle wax on herself is wrong, wrong, wrong. PERIOD. There is no good in that.

Some kids need pestering and support to motive them to do work. But terrifying and depressing and breaking a child on the inside is WRONG.

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.

--Antigen

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-17 01:14:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"So what would you do if that kid is a stealer or turns out to be a bad influence? What if they act up even more outside of the pressure cooker? "

Screening for antisocial behavior in kids makes about as much sense as screening for sanctimony in politicians. As adults, we know that kids are apt to make mistakes, behave badly and handle situations poorly. Again, that's why we never let you vote or hold public office or travel abroad or do a lot of other things w/o our protection and supervision. We weren't really just picking on you.

If a kid is troubled and we're willing to help, a sensible adult will expect more than the usual difficult behavior and, hopefully, have some idea how to respond in a helpful manner.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Anonymous]

There are certain mental health issues that can cause a person to feel a gentle admonishment as a screaming condemnation.
Someone with this problem is like an "emotional burn victim". They feel things in extreme ways. In the same way the lightest touch can be torture to a burn victim; these folks feel even gentle correction as an abusive tirade.
They may report verbal abuse and even beatings as a result of perfectly normal parental consequences. They may respond with rage in the face of the terrible emotional pain they can not escape and do not understand.
To the parents; or other persons involved; the emotionally raw person may seem like a malicious liar. It is only with understanding they are reporting what it felt like to them, that you can begin to feel compassion instead of anger with them.
However, feelings are often not reliable indications of reality, and in this case are far from it. In this kind of situation one must keep in mind the parents may not be nearly the monsters depicted.
On the other hand - allegations of a serious nature must never be ignored.
Just keep in mind - things may not be as they seem.
With regard to your friend  - the burning may indicate she is just such an emotionally raw person. Buring and cutting often go hand in hand with this.
You might look into something called DBT. Dialetic Behavior Therapy (I think)
In a nut shell, it helps people learn how to regulate their emotions. There is also something called rapid eye movement therapy - which somehow helps people defuse feelings of rage and think more rationally. And, there are some newer medications that can some people a great deal.

[Nihilanthic]

I'll try to communicate with my friend whose a mom again... ugh.

Shes been stressed out to hell and back so that might explain why her blood boiled when I tried to communicate this with her. If I can get her to listen fully without interrupting and let me apologize she'll see this as useful.

The point I DID make, that is, if a 'normal' thing is taken as abusive to the person, its still abuse if its otherwise normal, is still true. I just came across like an ass the way I said it somehow.  ::

Aspergers is a bitch.

If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[Perrigaud]

Niles,
  Put yourself in that parent's position. In doing so use the most tactful ways of getting your point across. Do be aware that she may not listen do to the fact that you are young. Parent's never take lightly the issue of their parenting. Good luck. If you have to take a few moments between the exchange of words to really think out what you'll say. You know you are highly opinionated. Passion is great as long as tact comes with it.

[Anonymous]

Actualy Niles, I think you expressed your opinion very well. I just happen to disagree. I would argue you can't trust your emotions to tell you the truth. In extream cases, emotions can lead a person to believe things happened that didn't. Their experaince is not reality, no matter how real it feels. DBT seems to be able to help people learn to focus on reality - what is actually taking place, and so not be nearly as likely to be fooled by their emotions; and with practice they seem to be able to learn to control their emotions, so they don't feel that aggitation, rage and disconnect with reality at all. In effect - they are cured.
It requires the person to admit they have a problem and is it hard work at first. But it is worth the effort, because it does work.

[Nihilanthic]

Disagree that if you do something and the person you did it to takes it wrong and its abusive to them you should do somethign else?

Um.. why? And lets say my friend DID need some help with her emotions... that changes what?

Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[Anonymous]

//Disagree that if you do something and the person you did it to takes it wrong and its abusive to them you should do somethign else? //

No - I would disagree that a reasonable response or correction is abuse, b/c it feels like abuse to a super super sensitive person. The problem here isn't abuse, but hyperactive emotions sending the brain false messages.
But obviously, if something is causing problems then other ways need to be found.
Maybe I miss-understood your meaning.

[Nihilanthic]

Its abusive to continue to do it to that person because it IS abusive to that person to do it over and over again, because of how it effects that person.

Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.
--John Adams, U.S. President