why can WWASP get away with this and not parents?

[Nihilanthic]

Personally, I'd rather you and everyone else wasn't influenced in their thinking from a program... nor would I want anyone else influenced by a program. Or religion or cults... nothing but their own mind's cognitive acceptance or rejection of something they learned.

LGAT's tend to push things upon you, or at least thats what the psychologists say :razz:

Thats not to say you're not a perfectly fine woman now, Perrigaud. I just dont like thinking that unqualified people running large group awareness trianing seminars that a LOT of medical professionals have labeled as pathological and generally denounced since they were known to exist could be allowed to impact you and any child, part, tom, dick, or harry that happened by and went into one unknowingly.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Perrigaud]

Once you think about it everything can be labeled as an influence. Television, music, magazines, you name it are very influential. To me that's the scarier part. The fact that there are so many messages sent to us on an everyday basis. Not everyone goes to a program but everyone is exposed to music, tv, other people, magazines, ads etc.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-15 02:53:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Once you think about it everything can be labeled as an influence. Television, music, magazines, you name it are very influential. To me that's the scarier part. The fact that there are so many messages sent to us on an everyday basis. Not everyone goes to a program but everyone is exposed to music, tv, other people, magazines, ads etc. "

You are not being exposed to music, TV, etc. while under extreme stress and while being held in an environment that is specifically designed to drive you into a frenzy and break you down. You are not forced to accept whatever the TV/music people are selling at the threat of losing your family or being beaten/sent to solitary confinement (unlike at WWASPS concentration camps, where such practices are extremely common).

You are also not forced to listen to whatever's on the TV or whatever they're playing on the radio. If you don't like what's on right now, you can simply shut down the machine. This is not an option for children incarcerated in WWASPS' gulags. They don't have ANY choice about the messages they are receiving, or the way they are treated.

[Nihilanthic]

I think anon said it pretty well. Passive propaganda or persuasion differs from active propaganda and persuasion in a controlled environment, especially one geared to behavior modification.

While some weaklings might buy a product for sex appeal or simply because the competetors dont advertise or have the brand name image it has, it doesnt actively try to change your views on reality or put you in a situation where you have to accept what you were told. Also, with products for sale commercially I can research them ahead of time.

In a program I have to do what they say period.

Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce

[Perrigaud]

When it comes to everyday media and not having to listen to it; yes and no. You can change the program. However, when it's all around you it's hard for a lot of people to resist it. Niles a few weaklings? No a lot. Majority. People are exposed to norms. Look at our celebrities. Most of them are rail thin (women) or really muscular. A lot of teenage girls think that they have to live up to that body image. In the end all of the preassures to be the norm end up harming girls and boys. Even the people who are in the anti-norm groups feel a pressure to uphold their certain rebel image. A few weaklings? If that were the case the kids these days wouldn't be part of the prozak nation.
As for the program? They may control what you watch, say, do but internally it's your choice if you want to internalize what is being said, taught, and such. The kids have a choice of what they will take in. The ways they are treated? Please it's not a concentration camp as you so judgementally put it. If you want to delve into that then I'll embelish. When watching the interviews of the people that were victims to the real concentration camps you find that they answer the same in one form or another. They say that they survived because of their will and their choice to not succomb to all that was going on. True freedom comes within. No one can take your dreams or thoughts away from you. Those people didn't listen to all the "gulag" they were told. Yes they had to put up with a certain way of life full of limits. But the survivors never gave up. Their families were killed around them, freinds murdered, famished, and yet they refused to believe in what the SS were saying.

[Anonymous]

Humans are a lot like wolves.  Alpha wolves think for themselves because they have the responsibility to take care of the pack.  Alphas who can't take a pack tend to be loners.  Beta wolves follow the lead of the alphas and go along with the pack.

When a pack loses one of its two alpha wolves, another wolf becomes an alpha personality.  The process typically cannot be reversed.  That wolf has an alpha personality for the rest of its life.

I think the Milgram experiments showed about 5% of humans would tell an experimenter that was telling them they "must" give another person a lethal electric shock to go to hell.  The other 95% complied.

5% of humans are alphas.  Some humans with beta personalities will become alpha if placed in a group situation under stress with only other betas.

Once you have an alpha personality, you stay that way.

That's why in armies throughout history, when there's a mutiny, the officers kill only the ringleaders.  Kill the new alphas and all the betas fall back in line under the old alphas.

My Point:  No matter what situation humans are in, 95% act like sheep.  But brainwashing *does* make it worse in forcing those "sheep" into a particular mold.  Think of it as land area being range of opinion:  sheep out of a brainwashing situation are a flock spread out on a big hillside; sheep in a brainwashing situation are a flock crammed together in a very small pen--frequently one where they're on a path to their own destruction.

Any human, alpha or beta, can have their spirit crushed and broken--anyone can be broken, eventually, if you have total control over them and don't care how much damage you do.

So the betas get jammed into a dysfunctional mode and broken, and the alphas get broken, too if the facility has enough time.

Whereas in a normal society the alphas are thinking for themselves and the betas, while they are following the alphas, are spread out across a range of opinions and thoughts instead of crammed all together into one traumatic and dysfunctional mold.

Sure, somebody's probably going to bring it up that humans aren't wolves---but socially we're a whole heck of a lot like them.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-16 00:55:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"When it comes to everyday media and not having to listen to it; yes and no. You can change the program. However, when it's all around you it's hard for a lot of people to resist it. Niles a few weaklings? No a lot. Majority. People are exposed to norms. Look at our celebrities. Most of them are rail thin (women) or really muscular. A lot of teenage girls think that they have to live up to that body image. In the end all of the preassures to be the norm end up harming girls and boys. Even the people who are in the anti-norm groups feel a pressure to uphold their certain rebel image. A few weaklings? If that were the case the kids these days wouldn't be part of the prozak nation.

As for the program? They may control what you watch, say, do but internally it's your choice if you want to internalize what is being said, taught, and such. The kids have a choice of what they will take in. The ways they are treated? Please it's not a concentration camp as you so judgementally put it. If you want to delve into that then I'll embelish. When watching the interviews of the people that were victims to the real concentration camps you find that they answer the same in one form or another. They say that they survived because of their will and their choice to not succomb to all that was going on. True freedom comes within. No one can take your dreams or thoughts away from you. Those people didn't listen to all the "gulag" they were told. Yes they had to put up with a certain way of life full of limits. But the survivors never gave up. Their families were killed around them, freinds murdered, famished, and yet they refused to believe in what the SS were saying. "

This applies to WWASP survivors as well. Their minds and psyche were under constant attack. They saw their friends humiliated and abused. Their families are often instructor to disown them if they dare resisting the program. These people who manage to resist WWASP, hang on to their own perception of reality, and not let the program take their minds and sanity away from them.

I know what you're going to say here: that I'm insulting the victims of Nazi concentration camps. Well, I don't think I do-- there are many, many parallels between Nazi concentration camps and WWASP concentration camps, only that WWASP attacks the mind and the Nazi attacked the body. Physical murder vs. psychological murder.

I would also like to point out that WWASP's program was invented and developed by the Koreans, who used it on American POW's and dissidents, in order to brainwash them into believing their government's Communist ideology. I believe The Program is still widely used in Korean gulags.

[Nihilanthic]

"As for the program? They may control what you watch, say, do but internally it's your choice if you want to internalize what is being said, taught, and such. The kids have a choice of what they will take in."

" When watching the interviews of the people that were victims to the real concentration camps you find that they answer the same in one form or another. They say that they survived because of their will and their choice to not succomb to all that was going on. True freedom comes within. No one can take your dreams or thoughts away from you. Those people didn't listen to all the "gulag" they were told. Yes they had to put up with a certain way of life full of limits. But the survivors never gave up. Their families were killed around them, freinds murdered, famished, and yet they refused to believe in what the SS were saying."

That seems to indicate a problem with the programs, and that its the job of a child in it to fight a program for the inside out to not get overly influenced by it... doesnt it? Seems kind of ridiculous to me.

If the program is going to do somthing then it should first do no harm... or resort to methods that are going to influence and manipulate people. You can argue all day long its a individuals fault for giving in but people are not omnipotent and anyone can be broken. Also, quite simply, they shouldn't BE in a situation where they'd have to start fighting mind control while being in a controlled, captive situation, ANYWAY. We train our Adult, special forces soldiers to fight it, and a lot of them cant handle it. Why is it that now kids are RESPONSIBLE to do it in some treatment program?

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Perrigaud]

Missed the point again. Nothing in life will pertain to 100% of the people. If WWASP did becom what you think would be good than there would be another group claiming negative thoughts towards it. Now a lot of what the program is about is what helped me. There were some things I didn't agree with but for the most part it helped. That's why I was saying that people can choose to either listen or not. The human mind is an amazing thing. Now, the reason with the concentration camps was to prove that even in the most extreme situations the human minds can prevail. WWASP is NOT a concentration camp. And yes I still stand by people make choices. No one is omnipotent. However, don't make the programs out to sound like they are worse than the Nazi camps. They aren't.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-17 02:25:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Missed the point again. Nothing in life will pertain to 100% of the people. If WWASP did becom what you think would be good than there would be another group claiming negative thoughts towards it.

What WWASP does to the children in its care is considered child abuse by normal standard used by normal, sane people. That's the whole point.

Now a lot of what the program is about is what helped me. There were some things I didn't agree with but for the most part it helped. That's why I was saying that people can choose to either listen or not. The human mind is an amazing thing.

Yeah, it is. It's amazing, how within such a short period of time, American soldiers were made to believe and stand by Korea's Communist ideology, how parents-- previously ordinary, logical people-- become submissive and accepting of anything and everything that's fed to them, completely convinced that everything the program does is wonderful. And it's amazing, the way children are made-- by means of stress-inducing and coercion-- believe their lives were saved by The Program.

Now, the reason with the concentration camps was to prove that even in the most extreme situations the human minds can prevail.

No, the reason the Nazis built the concentration camps was to murder people, to kill off an entire race. You make it sound like it was some psychological experiment.

WWASP is NOT a concentration camp. And yes I still stand by people make choices. No one is omnipotent. However, don't make the programs out to sound like they are worse than the Nazi camps. They aren't.

Okay, forget Nazi concentration camps. Let's go for something closer. How about Korean concentration camps? The Koreans invented the program for use in their own gulags. It's been copied and expanded by various American cults, such as LifeSpring. WWASP is a development of LifeSpring. WWASP is a destructive cult.

The misery, the abuse, the constant psychological stress, the cruelty, the horrid physical conditions... WWASP's facilities are gulags, concentration camps for children, designed to break them down and re-wire them. And we dare calling this country the land of freedom...

[Perrigaud]

Anonymous,
  1) I wasn't saying the Nazi camps existed for psychological experiment. What I meant was the reason for me mentioning them.
2)The conditions at CCM are not bad at all. In fact they are quite nice.
3)My friends(graduates) are not under the impression that the program is the only reason they are alive. Please, it's not all or nothing for us. Amazing how much you people want to make it sound like we are cookie cut graduates. Please, we make our mistakes, we do lead normal lives. If WWASP is so destructive then why are my friends doing well as well as me? Yeah so destructive that it helped me regain myself. Notice how I didn't say it fixed me? Notice how I said helped? Welcome to reality. Damaging? Maybe. In my case not at all. The same with my friends.

[Anonymous]

Perri,
Perhaps you have missed the mulitude of testimonials in which the child or parent claim the kid would be deadinsaneorinjail without the program.
You just can't speak for everyone. While you may claim differently, others are most definitely under that impression, and there is simply no justification for making such a claim.

[Perrigaud]

Sure. I can speak for the lot of people I know. These are both graduates and non-graduates. Oh well, I know I'll never convince anyone that thinks these places are all about abuse that they aren't. However, I will continue to give facts. My opinions are my own. Yours are yours. Again, I am aware that these places are difficult and have had some history of abuse. Do I think it happens constantly? No.

[chi3]

Perri,

I agree, these programs are NOT about abuse. They are about MONEY. In my experience with these people, there are a great many of people who work at these facilities who truly do care about the children and want to help them. The "owners" of these facilities? Money, Money Money. All under the guise of helping kids. That's where I have a problem. I have never been to CCM, so I have to believe you when you say it was nice. I can, however, tell you that CSA is not a nice place. Yes, the people there by and large genuinely want to help the kids. But it is a rundown facility, very dusty and dirty, the "school" equipment and "teachers", are a joke, the library looks like a corner of someone's garage sale of leftover books no one would take for free, The food is unappetizing, fattening and definately subpar. There are no real sports, they don't even have anything to play with even if they could. They basically get zero education, the credits they receive rarely transfer to any "decent" schools, there is no real time to learn about others, or from others, because you stay on silent basically 90% of the day. The kids can't even eat lunch without having to take notes from motivational tapes played throughout their meals, then test on them afterwards. They watch the same old "kids that have done wrong" tapes day after day until they block them out and just sit there in a stupor. The group sessions are conducted by someone who has no educational background in psycology or psychiatry, and then this wise person dispenses their opinions and gives solutions. The only way to see a real psycologist is to pony up $75 an hour for your kid to see the doctor who comes in sporadically. My daughter saw the one there once and didn't get to see her again for 3 weeks. The rules change daily without warning, in an effort to continuosly keep you of guard. My daughter got sick, but wasn't allowed to see the nurse even after asking for 3 weeks, and I was not told she had any problems. Luckily, she followed the rules, so she wasn't sent to the observation placement or worksheets, but she said the entire day was spent with someone yelling negative things to the girls 24/7. I fail to see how anyone can grow and thrive under these conditions. How would they voluntarily decide to change their lives? They don't They are made to change. They work under the same principles of the military. Break 'um down, build'um back in the image you want. Unfortunately, the biggest problem is how they manipulate the parents. They do everything in their power to get the parents to the seminars asap in order to convince them that  to ignore their children's complaints about the program, food, rules, etc. That way, the program is always right, your child couldn't possibly be being sexually, physically or verbally abused, it is just them manipulating the parents. If a child does attempt to blow the whistle on the problems they see, then they lose what little privaleges they may have. It is a catch-22 situation for the kids, damned if they do, damned if they don't. And there they are, separated from all their loved ones, trapped, with no rights. If your child didn't need therapy before the program, you can bet they need it now.

[Perrigaud]

Sounds like horrible conditions. I'm lucky I didn't go there. I was at Casa and that was just as bad if not worse. All behavioral and hardly emotional. I didn't do well there. I was transferred to CCM. There we had it a lot better. If anything I'd say that this is the closest facility (that I know of) that has managed to stay within reason. I'm not surprised CASA was shut down. It was horrible there. The therapists are licensed. At CASA there were no therapists. Lower level girls didn't talk a lot either. That's horrid that CSA was like that as well. TB is by far the worst. Glad I didn't go there either.