The Origin of All this was The Seed

[Thom]

The problem was me, the solution was God.

[Antigen]

Bro, I would not have divulged even that much info. But ok. I think you did just about exactly the right thing. I don't agree w/ all of your premises; the relative risk of middle class white ppl in your part of the country getting shaken down for personal use quantities of pot, for example, or the wisdom of stepcraft attendance. But that's what you believe, you told the kid just what you thought and left it to her to do the right thing. That's just exactly how I handle things around here.

But here's what I don't understand. You obviously knew that forced indoctrination was not an appropriate or helpful response to the situation. And yet you keep on about how wonderful the Seed was and how much it helped you? NOT saying I think you should have given her a dose of the same. Just a little puzzled over the inconsistency. My guess is that, really, you don't hold an entirely positive view of the whole thing. But I'm just guessing.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345371984/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Douglas Adams, _Last Chance to See_

[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-24 14:37:00, GregFL wrote:



The steps are worthless, unless you buy into the lie that you are pretty much worthless without them.  And the steps mixed with cultic coersion is even worse...







"

Worthless at best, usually they are very harmful.

[Helena Handbasket]

NA - Scientolgy
AA - Crapology (i.e.: worse than "junk science")

Penn & Teller did a show on 12-Stepcraft over a year ago... I forgot their source, but it was found that 5% of AA attendees actually stay sober.  Guess what?  5% of individuals who just flat out decide to quit on their OWN stay sober.  So what does AA have that you don't?

How old are your kids, Thom?  If one has a beer at a party does that automatically make them an "alcoholic"?  If you found a joint in your kid's pockets, would you suggest NA?  
Hey... when did pot become a narcotic anyway?

As far as what you said about escapism and responsibility - they're teenagers!!!!  Sturm und drang, man.  They usually figure out party time has its place when they have to figure out how to pay the rent.

As Greg said - did you really need to be locked up and forced to confess your transgressions to figure it all out?  Have you ever wondered how other people figured it out without the Seed / Straight / LIFE... etc?

I posted the stuff about the Boortz show becuase I wanted to hear what you had to say about that.  Anything?

[Anonymous]

The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report.  Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway.  That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell.

[Thom]

[Thom]

On 2005-10-24 16:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report.  Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway.  That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell."

Can you name the leader of the AA 'cult'?

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-10-24 16:30:00, Thom wrote:

"

On 2005-10-24 16:01:00, Anonymous wrote:


"The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report.  Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway.  That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell."

Can you name the leader of the AA 'cult'?"

Bob Smith and Bill Wilson... sounds like a couple of aliases to me! :grin:

[Anonymous]

On 2005-10-24 16:30:00, Thom wrote:

"

On 2005-10-24 16:01:00, Anonymous wrote:


"The source of the statistics was AA's own 1989 Triennial Report.  Even they know their program is bullshit, they just keep looking for suckers that buy into it anyway.  That's because the cult isn't about "recovery" or dealing with addiction in an effective way, the cult is only about it's own growth, not unlike a cancer cell."

Can you name the leader of the AA 'cult'?"

Yes, can you?

[Antigen]

Can you name the leader of the Christian cult? Or any other, for that matter. Islam, Judaism, any of them.

Point is a cult doesn't have to have a living, breathing, human leader like Art was. Cults can form around just about any ideology. It's all about the recruiting and control methods, the deceptions, the inequity of power and volition.

You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, intelligent enough.
--Aldous Huxley, author

[Antigen]

Wow, Thom, I didn't know all that. I wonder if dad would be more outraged or more amused to know that he raised a pack of nigger lovers.  :rofl: Toward the end there, I think he was starting to get it.

But I'm calling bullshit on the point of coercion. The Seed reeked of it. You never ran up against the wall because you never tried to escape. But you damned sure knew it was going on; what would happen to you if you DID try to bolt from the group room or a foster home or school... whatever. You may have agreed to sign yourself in and comply w/ the program, but you were only 14 and had been convinced by some very adept scammers that you'd die otherwise. That's not exactly voluntary by the strict (or, for that matter, legal) definition.

I did the same thing for slightly different reasons. They said they could get a court order mandating a 2 year stay. I believed them. But it was true. Not that they had anything close to a legitimate reason for a court order. But I knew they had friends in high places and I figured I could either bullshit my way through or split quicker than 2 years.

Anyway, I believe that you believe your view of things. It's a funny thing that happens w/ any idiology based group. Sometimes, the recruiting and PR spin on the group's task takes on a life of it's own and changes the task, especially when there's sustained and fairly fast growth and a lot of turnover (high ratio of new blood). It's just the same w/ the Judeo/Christian traditions. Most Bible/Torah believing people no longer support death by stoning for adulteresses. The new blood has sort of tweaked the mission a bit. Sometimes, it's for the good.

Just please don't start lobbing bomb laden virgins at me for speaking frankly.  :rofl:

Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom.  It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave.  
-- William Pitt, 1763

[Antigen]

One other thing, bro. Not to be a prig, but in all honesty how has your belief system about drugs, addiction and proper handling of them worked out for you? I never bought into the stepcraft version, at least not for long after I quit believing in Santa Clause. And I never did have any big problem w/ substances. You bought in, hook, line and sinker and DID have big problems w/ drugs and compulsive behavior.

And, as I read up and talk to a lot of varied people, it seems to me that's no coincidence. It's not that complicated, really. I just took Dad's view of things. Drunk or sober, you're still the one and only one responsible for whatever damned fool thing you may do. If excessive drinking is causing you to do foolish things, just quit going to the beer store so much.

Really simple. I believe it's all within my power while you believe you're powerless over a beguiling, trecherous entity. And I honestly think you'd have fared much better if you'd identified the voice of that staffer in your head and taken the habit of telling him to have a seat.

Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[Jeannine]

I agree with you Thom. That is the one thing that stayed with me after I "7 stepped"! I couldn't get high or drunk any more as a non lifer. I knew everytime I went out to drink that I was going to get drunk. Not just to "social" drink. It was always in the back of my mind knowing I couldn't B.S. myself. A lot of other things left a bad taste in my mouth then and now. I do believe we were and are now  guinia pigs in the adolescent substance abuse field of psychiatry. We should not have been left to fend for ourselves in that program while being observed behind mirrored glass.

[Antigen]

You had mirrored glass? Or are you speaking figuratively?

Anyway, belief is an incredibly potent thing. I never believed that I would spiral out of control, and so I never did. I have drunk to excess before or waken up realizing that I can't decide whether I can drive once I've had a few. But never have I had a problem simply cutting down or laying down ground rules for myself if my drinking was causing an actual problem to me.

Now, the schizm in my family has been problematic. My family basically condemned me as a hopeless addict because I won't buy into the Program line. Or maybe they've been waiting patiently for over 20 years now for me to finally lose control. How damned long does this stuff take to start working, anyway?

But it's not my problem.

Point is, if you had not believed that one drink would set you on an inexorable path to an undignified early death, it probably wouldn't have.

Nothing of value to the individual happens by coercion.

--Plato

[Thom]

On 2005-10-24 17:55:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Now, the schizm in my family has been problematic. My family basically condemned me as a hopeless addict because I won't buy into the Program line. Or maybe they've been waiting patiently for over 20 years now for me to finally lose control. How damned long does this stuff take to start working, anyway?



But it's not my problem.

Ginger, I hate to break this to you, but the reason no one in our family makes an effort to communicate with you (besides me, for some strange reason) is that you choose to be obnoxious and antagonistic, and they have more self respect than to believe they have to tolerate that just because of the blood line thing. The factions in the 'schism' are you vs everyone else in the family. It doesn't even qualify, as the definition of a schism is, 'An exclusive circle of people with a common purpose' (unless the rest of your circle is the staff members in your head). I've never heard anyone refer to you as an addict, hopeless or otherwise, and ironically, I'm the most active program person (practitioner of Stepcraft) in the family, yet I respect your right and your choice to believe it's an evil scheme. (Maybe I need to be started over.)