The Origin of All this was The Seed

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-10-21 22:55:00, Jeannine wrote:

"John Hyland kept running. They had put him back in after a relapse in Charleston. He hated it there. Iwas on staff at the time. I chased after him. He was so desperate not to go back. I wish I would not have let him run.I still think about him and those days often. "

There's a number of things at work here, than the perceived cause and effect of "Well, he didn't succeed in the program, so now he's dead.  This is the fearmongering that drives the industry.  Emotional abuse, and taking away basic human rights is not in line with any "treatment" done by professionals.

If he had a real problem, apparently LIFE wasn't the cure since he was so desperate to get out.  Maybe the kid needed some real treatment rather than being emotionally assaulted by a bunch of kids.  Who's to say this wasn't the proverbial straw on the camel's back for this guy?

It sucks that this guy's among the ranks of "Dead Program Kids" - but how long after LIFE was the crash, and if LIFE didn't help him, did his parents try anything else?

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-10-22 00:04:00, Thom wrote:

"I lost a few friends back then to drugs and alcohol related death. Some were'nt even in the Seed, so they had to work extra hard to become suicidal without help. Sarcasm."

Thom, I've been thru The Seed forum a number of times - I haven't had much to say, but when I do, it's there.

The problem I see is that when you have a kid on the path to self-destruction, how does logic follow that you get a bunch of kids to tear him/her down in order to "rebuild them"?  It makes no sense.  Those few kids needed then, and kids today need professional analysis of the problem, not the stuff of hacks like Petermann and Barker with their little army of untrained "graduates".

Without even focusing on the kids who did not have real problems, what sense does it make to throw them in with kids WITH real problems, and vice-versa?  Hanging the term "Druggie" on every kid that walks thru the door is ludicrous.

Think about it - when you have a sniffle, do you go to a pulmonary specialist?  No, you go to a general practitioner, and leave the pulmonary docs to treat the people with asthma and lung cancer.  Substance abuse - when it exists should be no different.  And there is a difference between "use", "abuse" and "dependence".

[Thom]

Helena,

I agree with most of what you have said here, and my comment was not directed at you.
I don't believe that involuntary treatment of kids using drugs is effective most of the time. I don't dispute that damage was and is done by adolecent forced treatment programs.

I was a voluntary participant in the Seed, so my perspective is different from many who post here. It's not an I'm right, they're wrong situation, my personal experience was not the same because I was not subjected to any of the in-your-face stuff that many others were, because I was there to learn.

By strict program standards, I was a screw-up, because I abused illicit drugs after I left the Seed. I take issue with the line of reasoning that my drug use after the program was caused by trauma suffered there. I used drugs, before and after program because I had an aversion to the concept of growing up, plain and simple.

My perception just before entering the Seed was influenced by the fact that many kids in my neighborhood were forced to go by their frightened parents. If drug use caused such a big uproar among adults, maybe there was danger ahead that I could not see. Maybe I could benefit from the experiences of those who had been through the ringer with drugs before I got in over my head.

An analogy would be that if I perceived I might be lost or about to get lost, it would be wise to stop and ask directions from someone who had been there, and who knows how to get back.

Another angle would be that if my car broke down, and I called AAA, if I could not offer a fair description of where I was located, and barring GPS, I might be stuck there for a while.

Some preventive maintainance might have allowed me to skip the breakdown altogether. My Seed experience was an oportunity like that.

If I had continued to follow the directions, I likely would not have gotten lost later in life. When I did get lost, and as I entered my thirties was at the point where I could finally stop and ask directions, I still had enough fragments of the old map tucked away in my brain that getting back on track was not as difficult as it might have been had I not, at one point, obtained the map.

I believe The Seed slowed my drug use down a lot. It was hard to enjoy a good buzz once I knew it was not merely a diversion, but was actually counter-productive, and a journey down the wrong path.

[Antigen]

Forced, tricked, what's the difference? Never mind the austensible message (which was consistently contradicted by their actions), pay attention to the other side of it for a moment.

"If I leave here and go back to the streets[sic], I'll be totally misserable cause my addiction[sic] is right outside the door doing push ups!" That can be potent a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't think it would ever have happened if you hadn't been so thoroughly indoctrinated w/ the idea.

It's NORMAL for a 14yo kid to be averse to growing up, damn it! It's NORMAL for a young teen to want to sample the goods and try a little of whatever other, older kids are doing.

Thom, you got bad directions from the Seed. I think the reason why you've had souch a rough time 'working your program' is because it just doesn't work very well in the real world.

Besides, you never would have been able to keep w/ the no sex/masturbating rule for very long. So it's probably all for the best.

People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.

--Benjamin Franklin

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[Thom]

On 2005-10-22 14:57:00, Antigen wrote:

"Forced, tricked, what's the difference? Never mind the austensible message (which was consistently contradicted by their actions), pay attention to the other side of it for a moment.

"If I leave here and go back to the streets[sic], I'll be totally misserable cause my addiction[sic] is right outside the door doing push ups!" That can be potent a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't think it would ever have happened if you hadn't been so thoroughly indoctrinated w/ the idea.

It's NORMAL for a 14yo kid to be averse to growing up, damn it! It's NORMAL for a young teen to want to sample the goods and try a little of whatever other, older kids are doing.

Thom, you got bad directions from the Seed. I think the reason why you've had souch a rough time 'working your program' is because it just doesn't work very well in the real world.

Besides, you never would have been able to keep w/ the no sex/masturbating rule for very long. So it's probably all for the best.

Ging,

This is not the first time you have made mention of your perception that I have trouble working my program. You make it sound like I've been in this life-long battle for abstinance. This has not been my situation at all. in the early '70's, I worked the program, and got results. Then I stopped working the program, and stopped getting results. I did that twice during that time period.

From the period of around '75-'91, I worked no program, and drugged and drank as much as I wanted to. From '91 to the present, I have worked the program, and gotten my desired results. Abstinance from alcohol, drugs (including nicotine) and cut way back on caffiene. I have no problem with the real world stuff today.

I understand that if I smoke, I increase the risk of cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc. So I choose not to smoke because I don't really want those things.

If I drink/drug, I increase the risk of liver, heart, kidney, brain, relationship, legal, employment, etc. problems. Again, these are not things I want, so I don't drink/drug.

I see no problem here. Why manufacture one? Is it because of a need of your's to use sensationalism and exageration to somehow try and distort my experiences into something more supportive of your agenda? It's an anoying habit of yours, and I do wish you would try to refrain from it. I don't feel you are any more qualified to psycho-analize my behavior than Art is. Or...did you visit the paper mill too?

Not quite sure why you saw fit to through in the comment about sex/masturbation, but I'm glad I was not under that rule. That guy's story the other week was hard to hear. Must have been tough. When I was in the Seed, it was strongly suggested to me that I avoid a 'guy/girl' relationship during the first year. Makes sense to me today, as I was not mature enough to handle all the dynamics of a healthy relationship until I was about 40  :grin: . I could do the sex part, but had trouble with real intimacy and being responsible. Nothing about masturbation was mentioned to me at the Seed.[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-10-22 21:42 ]

[Anonymous]

I was also in LIFE, in the 80's, and have no complaints.
  No evil tortures or cult rituals while I was there.  Not a vacation either, but don't think it was meant to be pleasurable.

  weird how many of you are so wrapped up in your sorted perceptions 10, 20 plus years later.  Hope you can get a grip soon.

 Shelly

[Thom]

Shelly,
I can almost see them motivating now. They're going to come down on you big time for your non-conformist attitudes. :lol:

[Helena Handbasket]

No coercion?  No groupthink?  No bullshit?

Shelly and Thom - if that BS worked for you, great.   You're grownups now - you have the ability to choose.  I only pity your children - or your influence on anyone with children - who might be subjected to the same mindfuck if you or a susceptible parent should one day find them diverging from your ideals of who they should be.  

Yes, this is short and sweet - I'm returning to my regularly scheduled evacation procedures now.

[Antigen]

On 2005-10-22 21:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

weird how many of you are so wrapped up in your sorted perceptions 10, 20 plus years later. Hope you can get a grip soon.

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about you guys. Except I figgure you meant 'sordid', right?

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'>Mark Twain

[Antigen]

Helena, I used to worry about Thom's kids. I'm happy to say, though, that when it came down to it, he did NOT put them in programs.

That's the funny thing. You see how really brutally and personally he'll attack me for my criticism of Art and the Seed. But he never did get around to dropping in to say hi and thanks to good old Art, not even when he had to drive almost right by the place on the way from the airport to a highschool reunion. Though we fought bitterly, it wasn't lost on me at all that he made the trip to see us instead.

Forget what they say, watch what they do.

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
--Hermann Goering, Luftwaffe commander, sentenced to death at Nuremberg

[Thom]

On 2005-10-23 13:20:00, Antigen wrote:

"Helena, I used to worry about Thom's kids. I'm happy to say, though, that when it came down to it, he did NOT put them in programs.

They didn't need programs

That's the funny thing. You see how really brutally and personally he'll attack me for my criticism of Art and the Seed. But he never did get around to dropping in to say hi and thanks to good old Art, not even when he had to drive almost right by the place on the way from the airport to a highschool reunion.

My flight got in with just enough time to get across town to the reunion. I do regret not visiting Art and Shelly afterward. With the exception of seeing your beautiful children, it would have been a better use of my time.

 Though we fought bitterly, it wasn't lost on me at all that he made the trip to see us instead.



Ginger...you fought bitterly. I just wanted to enjoy the limited time I had to visit with you to visit with you, and not dredge up old Seed/ Straight debate. When it became clear you were not capable of participating in a normal conversation with out your obsession getting in the way, and continued interogating me, I had to cut the visit short. I still worry about your kids. Mine are fine. John left for Gulfport, MS today to help with the rebuilding effort. Shannon spent the day playing with my Grand Daughter, (when I would let her have a turn) then cooked dinner for us all. Pretty normal stuff, I think.
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[Antigen]

On 2005-10-23 17:07:00, Thom wrote:

Ginger...you fought bitterly.

 :rofl: W/E

Yeah, I know your kids never needed a program. Neither did you or I. But I also know that at least one of them met the criteria at least once. I think you're the one who told me about it, too.

I'm not fighting w/ you, Thom. I was sincerely and honestly relieved that, despite what comes out of your mouth, when it came down to it you had better sense or a higher fidelity to your kids than to the almighty dogma.

Jeeze, some people just can't take a compliment.

Helena, I hope get what I'm saying. I suspect that this is the rule, not the exception, among proud, grateful Program graduates. I got a little validation of that not long ago watching a 60 Minutes retro on China. They tracked down some people who they had interviewed 30 years ago at the height of the Maoist revolution. They also spoke w/ some of these people's grown kids and showed them the footage from the earlier report.

Basically, the old ppl were a bit embarrassed if they had bought in for real or else they just explained why they had to say those silly things for their own safety. The younger generation just couldn't believe it. They laughed a little nervously, seemed maybe a bit insulted/embarrassed.

But, at the end of the day, they really never did, as a nation and culture, buy into the brainwasing entirely, even those who thought they did at the time. They just kept a low profile and waited the old megalomaniac out, secretly teaching their kids good old fashioned Confucian philosophy.  

I don't know about you, but it's been a load off my mind to see that at least this fear, of a generation of super seedlings raising kids and voting according to Program thinking has proved pretty much unfounded.

And, btw, I'm only half kidding when I say Büsh may be the most adept and successful stealth misbehaver in the history of the Program.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[Helena Handbasket]

Helena, I hope get what I'm saying. I suspect that this is the rule, not the exception, among proud, grateful Program graduates...

I get what you're saying, and it's good to know - especially when Darren from Growing Together once indicated that he would consider a similar program for his kids.  Keep the science coming!

Thom, what exactly would you do then, in the event your kid(s) "met the criteria"?  

I heard something interesting on the radio during my long drive today - On the Neal Boortz show:

Neal, like many Libertarians leans toward personal responsibility.  What struck me was, this 32 year old guy called in about something, they discussed the issue, then at the end of the call, the guy sung the praises of Boortz.

When he first started listening to the show, he was a real loser of a high school dropout, and since then, he's attained a college degree with honors, a great job, and is now happily married with a new baby.  "And I owe it all to you, Neal... you beat the snot outta me"

Boortz gladly accepted the kudos.

Why do those who preach "personal responsibility" take the credit for someone actually TAKING the responsibility??

Isn't it possible that Art isn't responsible for anything?  It's your life.  You did what you wanted with it.  Why not pat yourself on the back if you're so happy with it?

[Thom]

:grin:

[GregFL]

I understand that if I smoke, I increase the risk of cancer, heart disease, emphysema, etc. So I choose not to smoke because I don't really want those things.

Hey, now thats smart!  Just how did you learn that Thom?

I mean, did someone have to lock you in a warehouse, did you have to Step your way to that knowledge, confess it to your community?  Did you have to say it in a convincing fashion before you could decide when and where you would take a crap?


Or is it just common everyday knowledge that most people have, like drug abuse, and then they make a decision based on the risk/reward...absent of coersion?

And isn't this really indicitive of your post seed drug usage, that is, you ALWAYS knew there were negative ramifications to drug abuse before, during and after the seed, but yet chose to use anyway, at least before and after?  Did all that singing and worshipping Art Y Co. really do anything to prevent you from abusing substances?

Isn't the problem really you Thom, and isn't the solution really you also?


The steps are worthless, unless you buy into the lie that you are pretty much worthless without them.  And the steps mixed with cultic coersion is even worse...