G.T. Now

[GregFL]

On 2005-01-29 13:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-01-29 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:



"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.



Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.  Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today.  I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time.  I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken.  It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives.  This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see.  I am not blind or dumb.  Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover.  For this I am sorry.



My daughter is so much better off because of GT."

sorry, but your just an asshole.





The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?





If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.





If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.





Now, go take a spanking from your wife..."

   Well!  Spoken like a true, well-balanced healthy adult.  I want to take my advice from YOU!  (NOT)   :scared: "

well, if you do or don't, be sure to ask your wife first!

 :grin:

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-29 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.

Therapeutic[sic] Community. Based on methods used by Chuck Deiderich in his Synanon Church (before the attempted murder convictin) and propagated w/ NIDA support funding ever since.

Here's NIDA's definition.
http://165.112.78.61/ResearchReports/Th ... .html#what

It's the method employed with minor variation by The Seed, Straight, LIFE, Growing Together, SAFE in Orlando, Operation Par, Daytop, Phoenix Institute and a whole lot of other quack rehabs.

So what you're telling me is that you know nothing, not even the name, of the treatment modality used at GT.

Come back when you understand it and see if you still think it's a good idea.

Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1888952229/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>- Patrick Henry

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-29 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

""What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.



But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."



Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.

anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull: "

So can ignorance of who and what you turn your children over to. Suicides occur during TC treatment, and LIfe was a direct descendent of the seed/straight vodoo formula of adolescent treatment.

I hope people that need help seek it also. I also hope parents become informed and stop seeking abusive cure alls to life's troubling questions.

I know TC graduates that die all the time. There is no magical formula, and coercision, thought control and forced cultic drug rehab more often harms than it helps.

These are observable facts. Guys like this father more often than not will not listen.

I feel for your kid and I hope one day you two will be able to put this behind you. Maybe not.

[Anonymous]

Antigen writes:

 "But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."

  So these people continue to blame their past circumstances.  Well, I think that's a FAT excuse.  As an adult it's their OWN RESPONSIBILITY to own their issues and seek the appropriate counseling, treatment, or whatever to DEAL and COPE with their issues. For GOD'S SAKE - STOP blaming others and circumstances and be a responsible adult.  People do it ALL the time, it CAN and SHOULD be done.  
  Seriously.  Do yourselves a favor and get the help you need instead of endless postings on web site/message boards.
  I am NOT disregaurding any "abuse" that may have occurred (in a program, at home, in a relationship, WHATEVER), but continuing to be a VICTIM is getting you NO WHERE.
  (Sorry--- but I REALLY feel passionate on this topic!)

[GregFL]

just because people post here doesn't make them "victim" status.

Hell, you post here. Are you a victim?

Save your speech. What antigen was referring to was the vast number of people that have and are telling their stories of abuse and broken homes related to their time in TC treatment, and the obviously ones that come here with problems relating to it.

[Anonymous]

How about that site that was posted about here many months ago:   http://www.lifereunion.com

   from looking at it, it doesn't appear that anyone is screaming abuse there?!

[Anonymous]

yeah, all 8 happy graduates and their families that showed up.

Tell me, why no pics of the big haired one or her daughher?  Was she ashamed of having her pic taken?

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-29 19:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

So these people continue to blame their past circumstances.

Actually most of them don't. I'm not just talking about the rageful trolls. I'm talking about all of us. I don't consider myself a victim. I'm a warrior, honey! I would never have taken an interest in the Program if they (DFAF and their cronies) hadn't taken such an avid and enduring interest in public policy.

Your parents may have put you in LIFE of their own accord. Or maybe, like so many others, they were given an ultimatum from juvenile court. When my daughter was 16 and acting up, I had a Broward County Sheriff officer advise me to just make a false assault complaint against her so that they could arrest and charge her so that they could "help" her. I'd looked into JIF (Broward County's Juvenile Intervention Facility) and to local publicly funded, court mandated programs like Spectrum.

I've seen the progression from when The Seed was sort of a hippy love cult cum old tyme revival to where local law enforcement was doing active recruiting, and in just as underhanded a way as I remembered. So I realized that it wouldn't be long at all before parents had NO choice in the matter.

Trust me on this one, if nothing else. I'm far from disabled and perfectly willing to do my civic duty by these people. Just tell Mickey that I fully apreciate what she's done and am only trying to return the favor; to help keep her straight.  :wave:

What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-29 17:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-01-29 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:


""What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.





But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."





Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.


anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull: "

So can ignorance of who and what you turn your children over to. Suicides occur during TC treatment, and LIfe was a direct descendent of the seed/straight vodoo formula of adolescent treatment.



I hope people that need help seek it also. I also hope parents become informed and stop seeking abusive cure alls to life's troubling questions.



I know TC graduates that die all the time. There is no magical formula, and coercision, thought control and forced cultic drug rehab more often harms than it helps.



These are observable facts. Guys like this father more often than not will not listen.



I feel for your kid and I hope one day you two will be able to put this behind you. Maybe not.





"

Are you saying that the MAJORITY(over half...heck i would be impressed by 30 or 40%) of people(teens or whomever)that graduate a program like the one i attended(LIFE/STEP) kill themselves or have other issues more so than a person who is messed up with drugs, the law, etc.?
someone please link me to the stats from an objective body of analysts.

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-29 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

Are you saying that the MAJORITY(over half...heck i would be impressed by 30 or 40%) of people(teens or whomever)that graduate a program like the one i attended(LIFE/STEP) kill themselves or have other issues more so than a person who is messed up with drugs, the law, etc.?

someone please link me to the stats from an objective body of analysts."

Yes. That's what I'm saying. But no formal organization tracks results in this industry. Don't you think that's strange? I mean, with normal education, public and private schools generate mountains of stats and test scores to keep their accredidation as merely adequate at what they're supposed to be doing. Medical professionals and facilities delegate significant time to charting and documentation details unrelated to direct patient care simply for the purpose of learning from their mistakes and successes.

But the troubled parent / drug rehab industry doesn't do that. The only kind of research they'll spring for is that which supports their notions of how horrifying normal adolescence and/or drug use is. When the research comes up showing results contrary to their foregone conclusions, they ignore it, misrepresent it, disparage the authors and then come up with a shill like Enoch Gordias to conduct mock research to support their position.

So the best indications we have are things like Project Match (funded by NIDA, burried by same) and our own experience.

I've found out what happened to a lot of people I used to know. The ones I know about who went through the program are deadinsaneorinjail, with a few exceptions. The ones who I was told would end up that way generally are not.

But do your own research. Make up a private list of the people you remember from the program and those who were your friends or who were notorious heads prior to the program. Look them up. Do your own assessment of how things have gone for them. Do your own math. It's not scientific research, but it's a good reality check and a way to get a ballpark figure.

Or just call Mickey up and ask her for a list of clients who were in when you were. See how far that gets ya.

And remember that NObody who's parents decided that they met enough of "the signs" and who had access to proper funding was ever turned away. I'd never been an addict and had spent the prior two years in Straight before I shocked them all and split from staff trainee and they spent two hours trying to get me to sign myself in anyway.

Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its
best state is but a necessary evil ---in its worst state an
intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same
miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without
government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we
furnish the means by which we suffer!


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679433147/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Thomas Paine, Common Sense

[Anonymous]

How about those of us who were in abusive (non sexual) Catholic schools?
How about those sick baby killers who volunteered to join the armed services and will be returning home to your neighborhood?

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-01-29 19:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"  How about that site that was posted about here many months ago:   http://www.lifereunion.com



   from looking at it, it doesn't appear that anyone is screaming abuse there?!"

No one's screaming anything there!  Look at all the action lifereunion.com has been getting!

:grin:

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-01-29 23:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"How about those of us who were in abusive (non sexual) Catholic schools?

How about those sick baby killers who volunteered to join the armed services and will be returning home to your neighborhood?"

Abuse can happen in any venue.  Now, see, I personally went to a Catholic School, and suffered no abuse.  But I remember thinking back then that some of the tactics used on other kids were pretty harsh, and therefore, I would never subject my own kid to it.  I've been to some Catholic primary schools in my adulthood - very tame now.  Or tamed for my presence - who knows for sure?

I saw the military fuck up a few people... or was it VietNam - who knows for sure?  

The point is that unless the things that are wrong with something get fixed, it just keeps on being wrong.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-01-29 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:


Are you saying that the MAJORITY(over half...heck i would be impressed by 30 or 40%) of people(teens or whomever)that graduate a program like the one i attended(LIFE/STEP) kill themselves or have other issues more so than a person who is messed up with drugs, the law, etc.?

someone please link me to the stats from an objective body of analysts."

Here's some anecdotal evidence from my family.  My daughter swears some day she's going to write about this.  I married another grad.  We had two kids before we divorced after 3 years.  He then married an avid AAer.  My dad married another parent who had two graduated kids.  My (former)best friend for years was a grad who still to this day has not had a drink or gotten high.  She married a grad.  Out of those 6 grads (myself, my ex, my step brother and sister, friend and her husband) ALL of us either are or have been screwed up PROFOUNDLY for years.  My ex and I have been diagnosed with PTSD.  The ex got a DUI manslaughter (the kid who dies happened to be another grad out drinking that night separate from my ex) and has been in and out of prison and rehab.  My friend has lost almost every significant relationship in her life (including her sister and me), can't figure out if she's gay or not.  Her husband has now been diagnosed a "sex addict" :roll: by one of the Anonymous groups.  My step sister has been married about 4 times, is overbearingly controlling of her son and in general isn't very well like because of her confrontational personality she honed in the program.  My step brother is just OFF.  I mean OFF.  Extremely overbearing on his kids (who by the way are now rebelling like hell against it).  And me...well, I've been scared and depressed for a looooooooooooong time.  Floundered around for years, believed that I was the cause of all my families problems, got hooked on prescription drugs etc. etc.  My father and I don't speak...haven't for about 5 years now.  He and his wife and my ex-in laws would haul me into court every so often threatening to take my kids just to "keep me on the straight and narrow".  My ex and his wife would do that too whenever he would go back to AA.  My family stucture was forever altered and NOT for the positive.  These are all GRADUATES.  ALL OF THEM.  My daughter at 17 picked up on the absurdity of it at her young age.  When she discovered that all of those people I mentioned who were very much a part of her life when she was young were all in the program, it kind of fell into place for her.  She understood then how much damage had been done to us in there. It helped to explain some of the really hurtful actions of the people that she loved so much.  

Those are the grads that I have personal, intimate experience with.  There are so many from my program that aren't even here to talk about it.  They ARE dead from suicide.  

A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
http://www.mises.org/liberal/ch1sec11.asp' target='_new'>Ludwig Von Mises

[Anonymous]

Cayo,

 And ALL of these problems, are 100% stemmed from a year or two of a program??  Nothing prior to your program expeience, and nothing AFTER plays into ANY of these adults making these decisions and choices??  I mean, what you posted CERTAINLY sounds like a mess, and I'm sorry for that, but it BLOWS MY MIND that you wanna lay it ALL on the experience from the program.
  How many years has it been since you've been there?!  One thing I DID learn at the program was to OWN my OWN actions, and decide what to do.  Many decide to CONTINUE making the same kinda decisions over and over, and expecting different results.
 Now maybe if you were brainswashed and tortured at your program, and you were just out a month ago, or 6 months ago, or even a YEAR, I'd be a little more empathetic.  But aren't we talking YEARS?  Even DECADES??  Everyone CHOOSES how to confront or deal with their issues, baggage, or dysfunctionalities. Blaming Straight, Life, GT just ain't gonna help anyone.
  I sincerely hope the people in your life look for and find a way to conquer their "stuff", and find more good out of life. We ALL have our difficult times in life. Several years ago, I lost a VERY close loved one (accident). I believe that is one of the WORST experiences we must go through in life.  We have a choice of how to deal with that and our feelings.  Go drink, drug, whatever, or find a healthy way to process. Though I had times I felt like staying in bed for DAYS, I got through with the help of family and friends and let myself cry, and process.  We ALL have choices and FREE WILL to make our OWN decisions.