Author Topic: G.T. Now  (Read 49166 times)

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Offline Cayo Hueso

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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2005, 09:53:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-29 06:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I wonder how Open Meeting and Open Meeting Review went last night. :scared: OMG, those O.M reviews!!!! :scared:  :scared: "


oops, forgot to login.  Gotta get used to that again! :smile:

Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt

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t. Pete Straight
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2005, 10:17:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis.

Oh, believe me.  It's vastly different.


Quote
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.

Yeah, my mom said the same thing when I was in Straight (which btw, begat LIFE which begat GT).  When she found out years later what really happened in there she was devastated by guilt.  You cannot say it is not happening without a doubt.  You're not in there with her.  You really don't know.

Quote
I am not blind or dumb.

I don't think you're dumb.  I think you've been so scared by your daughter's actions that you've become an easy target for these people.  It's what they COUNT on.  I've been scared shitless of what my teens have done.  Posted here before about some serious troubles with one of mine for a couple of years...I know the feeling.  GT counts on that though.  They tell you they have THE answer.  They don't.  No one does actually.  There is no THE answer.  There are many complicated answers and they can be different for everyone.

Quote

My daughter is so much better off because of GT."


Well of COURSE she is.  She's in an incredibly controlled environment.  She's being the good little "tame child creature".  My parents thought I did "better" (and I use that term incredibly loosely) when I was in there.  I was saying all the right things, being a good little straighling b/c I knew what was in store for me if I wasn't.  After I got out into the real world the psychological damage that had been done to me in there really began to manifest itself.  I can get over the physical abuse that I was exposed to, but the damage done to my psyche has been extremely difficult to shake.  Hope to GOD your daughter doesn't suffer the same fate.
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Offline Cayo Hueso

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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2005, 10:19:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-29 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:


"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis.



Oh, believe me.  It's vastly different.

Quote
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.



Yeah, my mom said the same thing when I was in Straight (which btw, begat LIFE which begat GT).  .............................


DAMN!!  Did it again. :roll: That was me. :em:

You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain

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t. Pete Straight
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2005, 11:59:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-29 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:


"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis.



Oh, believe me.  It's vastly different.





Quote
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.



Yeah, my mom said the same thing when I was in Straight (which btw, begat LIFE which begat GT).  When she found out years later what really happened in there she was devastated by guilt.  You cannot say it is not happening without a doubt.  You're not in there with her.  You really don't know.



Quote
I am not blind or dumb.



I don't think you're dumb.  I think you've been so scared by your daughter's actions that you've become an easy target for these people.  It's what they COUNT on.  I've been scared shitless of what my teens have done.  Posted here before about some serious troubles with one of mine for a couple of years...I know the feeling.  GT counts on that though.  They tell you they have THE answer.  They don't.  No one does actually.  There is no THE answer.  There are many complicated answers and they can be different for everyone.



Quote


My daughter is so much better off because of GT."




Well of COURSE she is.  She's in an incredibly controlled environment.  She's being the good little "tame child creature".  My parents thought I did "better" (and I use that term incredibly loosely) when I was in there.  I was saying all the right things, being a good little straighling b/c I knew what was in store for me if I wasn't.  After I got out into the real world the psychological damage that had been done to me in there really began to manifest itself.  I can get over the physical abuse that I was exposed to, but the damage done to my psyche has been extremely difficult to shake.  Hope to GOD your daughter doesn't suffer the same fate."
And sometimes the program works like in my case and everyone is happier...including myself!! once again as long as abuse is not happening...it can work...sounds like your families program is working...best of luck!
D.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2005, 12:49:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.

Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.  Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today.  I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time.  I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken.  It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives.  This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see.  I am not blind or dumb.  Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover.  For this I am sorry.

My daughter is so much better off because of GT."


sorry, but your just an asshole.

The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?

If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.

If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.

Now, go take a spanking from your wife...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2005, 12:56:00 PM »
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On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:



You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad.


Try to imagine your state of mind at age 16, then put yourself under total control of a large group that insults her, strips her of her identity and self worth.

come to think of it, don't. You don't have the cognizant reasoning ability to understand what you have subjected your kid to.  Just be prepared to deal with it for the next 40 years.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2005, 02:07:00 PM »
When you ground your kid or take their phone or TV for whatever reason, you're trying to get their attention so they know you're serious about something and maybe give them that extra couple of hours per day to do something you want them to do or to think about something they're doing that you find problematic.

Usually, anyway. Most parents don't do these things sadistically, I don't think.

That's not at all what Program restrictions are all about!

First there's the intake. That's disorienting enough. Most kids who land up there do not want or believe they need any kind of psyche treatment. But they're coerced and/or cajoled into signing a paper that says they do.

Next comes the strip search (which they don't even do in jail intakes, only prison for convicts and psyche wards in some extreme cases)

Next, you're introduced to Group, by some joker who tells these lies you've signed your name to to the Group (you may not argue) and then the Group shouts, in unison, "Love ya, Joe!". Better get used to it. Except for Open Meeting night and the host homes, these are the only faces you will be seeing, the only voices you will be hearing for an indeterminate amount of time.

Maybe a few of the following details have changed, but I'd bet good money that most have not. For the forseeable future, you will have not one moment alone. You will not step out for some air and some time to think. You will not lose yourself in reading or watching a tv show. You cannot call your friend, your brother or your mom or grandma when you really need to hear a friendly voice. You will not be permitted to speak freely to anyone but your oldcomer. And your oldcomer is required to keep you completely occupied w/ Program dogma and to correct you and report you if you choose to speak with them in any way contrary to that. You will not know if your cousin who shipped out to Kuwait last year has come home or if he's been killed. You wouldn't know if we went to war with yet another country nor if there was a catastrophic storm that wiped out your home or if your parents sold your home and moved.

None, nada, absolutely NO contact or information from outside those four walls! No reference points. No natural checks on what you're being told and what you're being required to talk about. Only Group, staff and (so long as they behave themselves) your host parents.

At the same time, you're not getting enough sleep. You never catch up, ever. Everybody's addled and tired and jumping through their own assholes to do more and be "positive" about it. That's the only way out, except by a well planned escape or violence.

It's a far cry from the kind of grounding any parent could or would do to their kid. When you give your kid a restriction, you want it to make sense and be fair and for the kid to stop and think sensibly about something. When you isolate and disorient a kid, you don't want them thinking critically. You want them addled and vulnerable so that they'll accept a new belief system w/o any critical thought.

Here's a good list of writing on the topic of brainwashing; how it works, why it works and why it's a really evil thing to do to anyone, especially under the pretense of love and therapy.

http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html

How often have you (GT dad) heard something along the lines of "Well, these kids need a little brainwashing!" ?

No matter how sure you are that the new belief system is better than her old one, you should understand the process by which she's being made to adopt it and any future consequences.

For a peek into some of the potential consequences, just take a look around these forums a bit. You'll find that our new friend "D"'s perception of the Program is atypical.


I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain.
--Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2005, 03:10:00 PM »
"D" is Darren...anyway your statement="It's a far cry from the kind of grounding any parent could or would do to their kid. When you give your kid a restriction, you want it to make sense and be fair and for the kid to stop and think sensibly about something. When you isolate and disorient a kid, you don't want them thinking critically. You want them addled and vulnerable so that they'll accept a new belief system w/o any critical thought." When the restrictions stop working and your child tells you to "fuck off bitch...or i will kill you" then what do YOU suggest parents do...pat the kids on the head and say it's ok little lohnny...i still love you darling...or do you wait till the kid drives drunk into a family and kills someone? how would you handle that? ahh just forget it...kids dont need treatment...they just need to be left alone...treated like adults and left to make there own WELL INFORMED DECISIONS.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2005, 03:45:00 PM »
Actually no. When my kid did that I didn't pitch her out and wait for her to kill herself. I certainly worried about the risks she was taking. But, in all honesty, I thought it was a lot more likely that she'd wind up taking a legal fall for her psycho boyfriend. And it turned out that that was unwarranted worry too. When it actually came down to it, she testified truthfully.

Eventually it came to the point where we absolutely couldn't tolerate some of the kinds of trouble that she was bringing home where her two younger sisters lived. If it had been just us, we would have gladly taken a lot more bullshit. After all, she is our daughter and we love her that much. But we couldn't allow our other kids to pay the price for her poor judgement.

So we drew the proverbial line in the sand; keep these people away from our house, get them to stop calling at all hours of the night and make a stand against psycho boy with regard to threatening our lives or pack up and move out.

She said she'd make it stop, but she didn't pack and move. Instead, she snuck out in the middle of the night. I guess it was a combination of not being able to tell us to our faces that she prefered the company of thugs and the romantic allure of running away as opposed to the more mundane scenario of a peaceful, orderly change of address.

Even then, we didn't wait w/ baited breath for her demise. We knew better. Most kid who get into trouble actually do survive. And most white ones actually survive w/o a criminal record. Better still when it's a girl (provided she's smart enough not to get set up by a boyfriend)

Eventually, she grew up a little and got really tired of the reality that was left after the novelty and illusion wore thin. When she wanted it, we helped her get out. We were willing to buy her a bus ticket anywhere she wanted and we had always made that clear. She wanted to come home. And so she did, leaving the whole sordid ordeal behind.

When she got here, she went right back to her old friends, who she hadn't been allowed to talk to as long as she was Peewee's bitch (about 4 years) Some of those kids settled down and are living well now. Some are still chasing pills, beer and trouble. She hasn't shunned any of them, but hasn't followed anyone into trouble either.

It's been an amazing experience for me. After awhile, I started to recognize the similarities between Program control methods and those employed by this abusive boyfriend of hers. And I should note here that the boyfriend is not particularly smart or anything. He's just doing what he learned growing up in his parents' house.

Now that she's out of that mess for a couple of years, it's really remarkable to see how she's learned the same lessons and life skills as the Program promises to teach and proponants attribute to it.

One very prescient poster to these forums once noted that "The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.

Having viewed this situation from so many different perspectives now, I'm inclined to think she nailed it dead on.

When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2005, 04:58:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-29 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:


"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.


Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.  Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today.  I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time.  I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken.  It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives.  This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see.  I am not blind or dumb.  Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover.  For this I am sorry.


My daughter is so much better off because of GT."




sorry, but your just an asshole.



The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?



If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.



If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.



Now, go take a spanking from your wife..."

   Well!  Spoken like a true, well-balanced healthy adult.  I want to take my advice from YOU!  (NOT)   :scared:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2005, 05:11:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-29 13:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-01-29 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:



"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.



Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.  Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today.  I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time.  I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken.  It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives.  This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see.  I am not blind or dumb.  Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover.  For this I am sorry.



My daughter is so much better off because of GT."







sorry, but your just an asshole.





The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?





If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.





If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.





Now, go take a spanking from your wife..."


   Well!  Spoken like a true, well-balanced healthy adult.  I want to take my advice from YOU!  (NOT)   :scared: "


It's amazing to me how you skip right over well thought out, intelligent posts and shoot right to the flamebait!!!  It's much easier to defend your position that way. :roll:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2005, 05:33:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-29 12:45:00, Antigen wrote:

"Actually no. When my kid did that I didn't pitch her out and wait for her to kill herself. I certainly worried about the risks she was taking. But, in all honesty, I thought it was a lot more likely that she'd wind up taking a legal fall for her psycho boyfriend. And it turned out that that was unwarranted worry too. When it actually came down to it, she testified truthfully.



Eventually it came to the point where we absolutely couldn't tolerate some of the kinds of trouble that she was bringing home where her two younger sisters lived. If it had been just us, we would have gladly taken a lot more bullshit. After all, she is our daughter and we love her that much. But we couldn't allow our other kids to pay the price for her poor judgement.



So we drew the proverbial line in the sand; keep these people away from our house, get them to stop calling at all hours of the night and make a stand against psycho boy with regard to threatening our lives or pack up and move out.



She said she'd make it stop, but she didn't pack and move. Instead, she snuck out in the middle of the night. I guess it was a combination of not being able to tell us to our faces that she prefered the company of thugs and the romantic allure of running away as opposed to the more mundane scenario of a peaceful, orderly change of address.



Even then, we didn't wait w/ baited breath for her demise. We knew better. Most kid who get into trouble actually do survive. And most white ones actually survive w/o a criminal record. Better still when it's a girl (provided she's smart enough not to get set up by a boyfriend)



Eventually, she grew up a little and got really tired of the reality that was left after the novelty and illusion wore thin. When she wanted it, we helped her get out. We were willing to buy her a bus ticket anywhere she wanted and we had always made that clear. She wanted to come home. And so she did, leaving the whole sordid ordeal behind.



When she got here, she went right back to her old friends, who she hadn't been allowed to talk to as long as she was Peewee's bitch (about 4 years) Some of those kids settled down and are living well now. Some are still chasing pills, beer and trouble. She hasn't shunned any of them, but hasn't followed anyone into trouble either.



It's been an amazing experience for me. After awhile, I started to recognize the similarities between Program control methods and those employed by this abusive boyfriend of hers. And I should note here that the boyfriend is not particularly smart or anything. He's just doing what he learned growing up in his parents' house.



Now that she's out of that mess for a couple of years, it's really remarkable to see how she's learned the same lessons and life skills as the Program promises to teach and proponants attribute to it.



One very prescient poster to these forums once noted that "The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.



Having viewed this situation from so many different perspectives now, I'm inclined to think she nailed it dead on.



When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor


"
wow that sounds great...i am glad it worked out for your family...but what if all your attempts didnt work(my parents tried what you tried). what if by being with this guy she got aids? overdosed on those drugs she used with the asshole boyfriend? all that time you gave her to find her way something really bad could have happened...it happens everyday...you see some parent on the news after there teen dies by drugs, or kills someone else"i thought he would grow out of it". it is a horror story you hear all the time...my parents, i think, were proactive in there approach. they didnt want to take the chance or whether it would happen or not...they wanted it to stop before they lost me to death, disease, jail or anything else. heck i might have never gone beyond the cursing them out or stealing booze, or blacking out at friends parties or driving drunk...by why risk it?
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2005, 05:42:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-29 14:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

...by why risk it?


Because I had learned, though hard knocks, about the risks inherent in the Program. I've found that the entire troubled parent industry seems to rely on this same trick of slight of mind.

What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.

But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method.

It sure would be nice if such a panacea existed. And I understand completely why people want to believe in it. But I just don't think it exists. I think there's a serious down side to this treatment modality and no one should enter into it, far less force their kids into it, w/o fully informed consent.

And none of these programs that I've found ever goes to the trouble of making sure the parent or kid fully understands the process. That's sort of a catch 22. If you understand how it works, it won't work.

I think that's largely why I wasn't as affected by my time in Straight as some people. It's not that I'm brilliantly intelligent or strong or anything. It's just that I was thoroughly familiar w/ Program culture and norms before intake. Where most kids were completely shaken and disoriented by it, I was right at home with it. I knew just what to expect and how to dodge the worst blows.

For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
http://www.urban.org/authors/travis.html' target='_new'>Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2005, 07:53:00 PM »
What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.

But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method.

Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.
anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull:
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Offline Anonymous

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G.T. Now
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2005, 07:53:00 PM »
"What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.

But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."

Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.
anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »