Author Topic: With respect and sadness  (Read 21234 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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With respect and sadness
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2005, 11:13:00 PM »
You are right. If Andrew had overdosed on pills we may have something there....but it was not pills he had overdosed on. The amount and type of narcotics found in Andrew would suggest previous experience. I encourage you to research about the disease of addiction...the World Health Organization, American Medical Association, DSM 4. A lot of people can make AARC wrong but you would have to argue with a lot of other associations about what makes someone an addict. Andrew falls on the spectrum with his death alone, never mind his criminal charges. If these organizations were to have a conversation with Andrew's family and have them recall times they experienced Andrew drunk or high they would come to the same conclusion. Don't take my word for it...research it...they will all tell you the same results.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2005, 12:29:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-17 20:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You are right. If Andrew had overdosed on pills we may have something there....but it was not pills he had overdosed on. The amount and type of narcotics found in Andrew would suggest previous experience. I encourage you to research about the disease of addiction...the World Health Organization, American Medical Association, DSM 4. A lot of people can make AARC wrong but you would have to argue with a lot of other associations about what makes someone an addict. Andrew falls on the spectrum with his death alone, never mind his criminal charges. If these organizations were to have a conversation with Andrew's family and have them recall times they experienced Andrew drunk or high they would come to the same conclusion. Don't take my word for it...research it...they will all tell you the same results. "

How condescending of you.
The WHO does recognize, however, that Harm Reduction is more effective than anything AARC can dream up, IF you are dealing with genuine addiction.  But then, AARC is so quick to label its   inmates through a misapplication of the DMV4 by unqualified people.

Yah still don't get it do yah?  Was he born an addict? or was he made?  What part of the Chemistry  of his brain do you not understand.

Maybe the autopsy should examine the brain and they'll be able to find some physical manifestation of this dreadful "disease."

So, he killed himself in jail, eh?  Now I would REALLY want to see an inquiry.  How come nothing in the newapapers though?

Sad that donations should be going to an institution that failed him so badly.

But hey, we are hearing contradictory stories here.  One says his autopsy shows previous drug use, not  "a handful of pills."
 Now we all (should)  know that drugs are more readily available in jail than outside,  but... The more we hear, the more questions we have.

But... the amount and type found would suggest previous experience?   THAT's a wierd comment.
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Offline Hamiltonf

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« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2005, 12:34:00 AM »
Psychoactive Drugs & Harm Reduction
Heather, Nick, et al, Eds. Psychoactive Drugs & Harm Reduction: From Faith to Science. London: Whurr Publishers Limited. April 1993, 345 pages.
World Health Organization

Psychoactive Drugs & Harm Reduction is based loosely on the Third International Conference on the Reduction of Drug-Related Harm held in Melbourne, Australia at the end of March, 1992.

"As the HIV/AIDS pandemic accelerates and people around the world search for ways beyond the ineffective and harmful drug war policies of the past, this book arrives to lead the way forward. It has the scope, strength and depth to bring "harm reduction" squarely into the arena of public and professional attention. This book goes far beyond advocacy, to consider the evidence, the experience and the insights - precious lessons learned in the practice of harm reduction. Fine editing, superb organization and diverse perspectives - from government ministers to police and from criminologists to political scientists - are linked with a strong commitment to exploring international experience - North, South, East and West. This is one of those very rare books which has the power to influence the course of history. For all concerned with drugs (licit and illicit), health and society - this is the single book to read now. Read this book, introduce yourself to harm reduction - and the world may just possibly never the same."
   --     Jonathan Mann, MD, MPH, Professor of Epidemiology and International Health, Harvard School of Public Health and Founding Director, World Health Organization's Global Program on AIDS.

"This book stands as a milestone in the growth and development of harm reduction. (It) contains contributions from some of the most influential figures in the harm-reduction movement and will establish itself as essential reading for all who are involved in the field."
   --     Michael Gossop, PhD, National Addiction Center, London.

"The term 'harm reduction' has become a popular sound bite and has heralded a new social movement in drug policy reform. Yet, until now, no comprehensive document about harm reduction has been available. This book fills this important void...(It) is sure to become a reference work in harm reduction and a necessary resource for those involved in drug prevention, treatment, research and policy."
   --     Marsha Rosenbaum, PhD, former Director, Center for Drug Studies Institute for Scientific Analysis, San Francisco.

"With the publication of this volume the harm reduction approach achieves a new maturity. It presents a growing body of data and experience, conceptual models and ethical judgements all of which point the way to new solutions to our massive drug problem."
   --     Ernest Drucker, PhD, Director, Division of Community Health and Professor, Department of Epidemiology and Social Medicine, Montefiore Medical Center/ Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York.

About the Authors

Nick Heather is Professor of Drug and Alcohol Studies and the Director of the National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia.

Alex Wodak is the Director of the Alcohol and Drug Services, St. Vincent's Hospital, Sydney.

Pat O'Hare is the Director of the Mersey Drug Training and Information Centre, Liverpool, UK.
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The Bush administration has succeeded in making the United States one of the most feared and hated countries in the world. The talent of these guys is unbelievable. They have even succeeded at alienating Canada. I mean, that takes ge

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2005, 03:35:00 AM »
LMAO! I didnt even need to read the "Hamilton Horseshit" or the persons before his to know they are doubting it was an addiction.

Dear defender of harm reduction.. learn a little more and realise he went through a program that purveyed that garbage before he went to AARC. As many others was likely high or drunk while attending  one of those tax-dollar-grabber-meetings. Thanks for coming out. Hamilton, Im betting no-one read what you wrote, no one cares. Your fake intellectualism will not work... you are a fake as is the owner of this section of the board.
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Offline Antigen

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With respect and sadness
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2005, 02:37:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-17 21:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

But... the amount and type found would suggest previous experience? THAT's a wierd comment.


It's very, very difficult to accomplish a lethal overdose using pills. Most of the time, when someone dies of a drug overdose, they've injected the drugs. And most IV drug users are not novices; people inject because they have a high tolerance and can't afford enough of the drug to get a fix from snorting.

So if the kid had a huge amount of opiates in his system, then that would indicate (but not prove) that he had been an habitual user. Of course, there's this niggling little catch that the law-n-order types don't like to think about. When your kidneys quit functioning, all kinds of things change. Some levels go up in preportion to others, which go down. This happens pretty quickly, and even faster once the lungs quit doing their job. So the level of a particular substance in the blood after death is often many times the level that it had been just minutes before. So it could even have been murder. Lots of murders go down as accidental overdoses.

Ya just never know.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2005, 02:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-18 11:37:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-01-17 21:29:00, Anonymous wrote:


But... the amount and type found would suggest previous experience? THAT's a wierd comment.




It's very, very difficult to accomplish a lethal overdose using pills. Most of the time, when someone dies of a drug overdose, they've injected the drugs. And most IV drug users are not novices; people inject because they have a high tolerance and can't afford enough of the drug to get a fix from snorting.



So if the kid had a huge amount of opiates in his system, then that would indicate (but not prove) that he had been an habitual user. Of course, there's this niggling little catch that the law-n-order types don't like to think about. When your kidneys quit functioning, all kinds of things change. Some levels go up in preportion to others, which go down. This happens pretty quickly, and even faster once the lungs quit doing their job. So the level of a particular substance in the blood after death is often many times the level that it had been just minutes before. So it could even have been murder. Lots of murders go down as accidental overdoses.



Ya just never know.



Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee


"


Maybe it was aliens. What a ridiculous assertion. So who "murdered him?" Dr. V.? Andrew was looking at 8 years in the penitentiary, he saved up his medications and took a pile of them at once.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2005, 02:50:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-18 00:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

Dear defender of harm reduction.. learn a little more and realise he went through a program that purveyed that garbage before he went to AARC.


My understanding is that this kid graduated AARC and died of an overdose while in jail. Have I got it wrong? Cause I was told repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that that only happens to people who do not graduate the program.

(Unfortunately, that's a lie. Almost everyone I know who's deadinsaneorinjail are Program vets, many of them graduates)

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.

--Charles Austin Beard

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2005, 02:53:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-18 11:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

Maybe it was aliens. What a ridiculous assertion. So who "murdered him?" Dr. V.? Andrew was looking at 8 years in the penitentiary, he saved up his medications and took a pile of them at once.


You seem to have a lot more detailed information about this tragedy than what was in the papers. How do you come by this info.?

Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2005, 03:31:00 PM »
"My understanding is that this kid graduated AARC and died of an overdose while in jail. Have I got it wrong? Cause I was told repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that that only happens to people who do not graduate the program.
(Unfortunately, that's a lie. Almost everyone I know who's deadinsaneorinjail are Program vets, many of them graduates)"

Really? I lost several friends when I was using to suicide, murder and drunk driving. I know two other people in over a decade who committed suicide - one was a guy who never dealt with his stuff from childhood and in abude in KIDS. The other was a guy who was depressed and over stressed who only chose to get support after he would relapse and lose everything - he never went through treatment.

"You seem to have a lot more detailed information about this tragedy than what was in the papers. How do you come by this info.?"

I'll leave it up to your imagination. I'm just interested that the truth be put out there rather than stupid speculation. AARC is not responsible once clients graduate and decide the can use drugs or get involved in a criminal lifestyle. It is notable that many come back looking for help once they do decide to deal with the reprucussions of relapse.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2005, 03:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-18 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

I'm just interested that the truth be put out there rather than stupid speculation. AARC is not responsible once clients graduate and decide the can use drugs or get involved in a criminal lifestyle. It is notable that many come back looking for help once they do decide to deal with the reprucussions of relapse."


I'm interested in the truth getting out there too. In particular, those astounding success rate claims and those dire warnings about what might happen to someone who doesn't complete the program. Seems asthough AARC doesn't take responsibility for their fuckups and they do try to take responsibility whenever something goes right for a former client.

Right here in this thread we have someone who sincerely believes that her involvement in AARC has saved her from the dire fate that befell this poor unfortunate . . . AARC graduate!

How much more obvious can it get????

In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2005, 04:14:00 PM »
"I'm interested in the truth getting out there too. In particular, those astounding success rate claims and those dire warnings about what might happen to someone who doesn't complete the program. Seems asthough AARC doesn't take responsibility for their fuckups and they do try to take responsibility whenever something goes right for a former client.

Right here in this thread we have someone who sincerely believes that her involvement in AARC has saved her from the dire fate that befell this poor unfortunate . . . AARC graduate! "

AARC has never claimed any responsibility for my success. Once I was graduated, my success was my responsibility. They are pretty clear about the hard work, committment and determination their successful clients put in. AARC carries a message. That's it. Do you blame Straight for your successes or just your failures? I blame no one but myself for my mistakes and "fuckups". I am sure Andrew didn't blame AARC for his situation. AARC was a spring board for me. I cleaned up my life, then I moved on, and my decisions determined whether I was a success or not.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2005, 04:43:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-18 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:


I'll leave it up to your imagination. I'm just interested that the truth be put out there rather than stupid speculation.


Look at the absurdity of those two statements being put together. :roll: You're interested in the truth coming out, you seem to be the only one who was there and actually HAS the information, but you're going to leave it up to our imagination.  Hmmmm.  Interesting.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2005, 05:06:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-18 13:14:00, Anonymous wrote:


AARC has never claimed any responsibility for my success. Once I was graduated, my success was my responsibility.
...

Ok, here's a quote from the post I'm refering to (around page 4 or 5 of this thread, I think)
Quote
For someone who felt so unworthy of love, a whole lot of people who loved him showed up to his funeral. He will be sadly missed. AARC may seem really messed up to some of you, but to me its the reason I am not where Andrew is now. I would much rather be "brain-washed", "identity stripped" or whatever else this site says we AARC grads are now...then pushing up daisies.


This person certainly seems to attribute his or her existance to AARC, don't they?

But you don't, right? You would be OK either way, right? Or do you think it was AARC that saved you? If so, please explain why AARC was unable to save Andrew. Do you think it may have had a little something to do w/ Program dogma about how worthless and unlovable you were before AARC saved you and would be if you rejected it now?


Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2005, 05:46:00 PM »
"But you don't, right? You would be OK either way, right? "

No idea, my crysal balls are broken

"Or do you think it was AARC that saved you?"

My hard work in AARC, participation in AA, willingness to ask for help when I need it, individual, marriage and grief counselling when needed, a strong spiritual belief, good work ethic, constant thirst for knowledge, and a need to better myself year after year have a lot to do with "what saved" me.

" If so, please explain why AARC was unable to save Andrew. "

AARC can't "save" any one. AARC helped me to help myself. It gave me some great tools and some excellent counselling, as well as a safe place to withdraw from the lifestyle I was in. Andrew made some bad choices after AARC - which I would submit goes against any ideas that AARC brainwashes anyone. He had free will just as I do, and he made choices with full knowledge of consequences.

"Do you think it may have had a little something to do w/ Program dogma about how worthless and unlovable you were before AARC saved you and would be if you rejected it now? "

Not at all, I was never told I was "worthless and unlovable you were before AARC saved" me. I felt that way for 10 years prior, and when I entered AARC I was reunited with a family that worked just as hard as I did, and we have a great relationship now. I was shown a great deal of love and understanding in treatment, and it helped me to gain back some of the positive feelings toward myself that I had lost. Your assumptions are a mile wide, but only an inch deep. Again, AARC was a springboard for me, what I did afterward was totally up to me. What other people experienced is for them to voice. I believe all voices should be heard and honored.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2005, 10:38:00 PM »
When does it stop being AARC's fault? Or are they responsible for life? Andrew was out for  awhile...if he did this when he was 50 would AARC be to blame then? Where is the line between the institution's fault and the individual's? If AARC is this big terrible place that is  responsible for killing a kid then why are they still in existance? Do they have everyone fooled? or is it just the handful of people that visit this site that don't agree with the program's results? Is it a conspiracy? I think if it was a abusive, confining place, that destroys lives ( add killing one of them now I guess)... A: this site would have way more posts then it does,Montel would have done an episode about AARC today instead of WASP B: it would have been shut down years ago...not been in existance for the last 12 yrs, you know... the same building, same name, same director, consistent board members C: would not have become certified by social services( an investigation process that happens to every social services agency once every three years...and I mean investigation including confidential interviews with staff, clients from all levels past and present, and report audits) Then again maybe they don't know what two AARC grads that started this site, a so-called lawyer, someone who went through a treatment center in the states, and a handfull of run aways know. There are a lot of us out here not buying into the blame game that happens here....not only grads but it would seem the government, police, parents, doctors, schools, other provinces wanting to purchase the model,and Montel Williams. Thats a lot of people to convince different, insult, make wrong, or choose not to hear.
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