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Offline landyh

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« Reply #210 on: November 23, 2005, 11:13:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-11-23 07:35:00, GregFL wrote:

"Welcome Landy!



I always suspected we would get one of you people that got admitted at 9 years old.



I am so interested in hearing more from you. I often wondered what the hell the parents of these youngsters were thinking.







"

Thank you for the kind welcome.
I was the first person anywhere close to that age when I came and I dropped into a world of hardened junkies and criminals. The early people were much more serious users than what came later. I was fascinated by their stories. Wished I had more history in some ways not that I didn't have enough.  I don't even remember if my dad knew at first that my sister had taken me there. He was a guy who was trying to raise two kids pretty much on his own. He never in his life used, drank, smoked, cursed and was basically an honest hardworking guy who had no frame of reference from which to help his own children. He was guilty of having to spend most of his time working which gave us a lot of freedom. When he did come to the seed he was  concerned to make sure that this place had some base in God. I can still remember being in the office with my dad and Hap and Hap patiently telling my dad that he believed in God and parphrasing lines from Matthew I think from the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said we should pray in private. Whatever it was it was enough to pass my dads sniff test. Remember he knew nothing about how to deal with this there wern't lots of options and Art could certainly put a parent at ease and I wanted to go. The second time was a terrorist event in my mind. I was kiddnapped. But why wouldn't he have gone back there? At intake it took 5 big staff members to accomplish my strip search the violence was mostly mine. I had a stout four finger bag in my underwear. I was 12 years old this time. If I had been big enough I would have hurt them destroyed them. Fuck them. I wanted them dead right there. That was my sh*t I stole it fair and square from my sisters lb at home. I was such a sweet little kid. To be fair to myself and even them my anger had a deeper source. I wasn't abused at the seed but I was pissed. Iknew what real abuse was and this wasn't it.On another note I wondered what they did with that bag it was some good weed.  :lol: [ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 08:18 ][ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 08:21 ]
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #211 on: November 23, 2005, 12:04:00 PM »
Your story so far is fascinating but not unusual. A kid experiences extreme trauma and rejection from his parent(s), lashes out in anger and all his problems are assumed to be the evil drug marijuana.  A one size fits all lock down treatment model is prescribed, and it doesn't work.  The kid spends his life thinking he deserved what he got and goes on to substance abuse issues later in life.

It sounds like what you needed were things the seed could never give you, a real family..protection from your abusers, and a method to deal with your problems that just didn't replace them with dogma.

I am glad you are here now, but not so glad you didn't get the help you really needed back then.
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Offline landyh

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« Reply #212 on: November 23, 2005, 05:33:00 PM »
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On 2005-11-23 09:04:00, GregFL wrote:

"Your story so far is fascinating but not unusual. A kid experiences extreme trauma and rejection from his parent(s), lashes out in anger and all his problems are assumed to be the evil drug marijuana.  A one size fits all lock down treatment model is prescribed, and it doesn't work.  The kid spends his life thinking he deserved what he got and goes on to substance abuse issues later in life.



It sounds like what you needed were things the seed could never give you, a real family..protection from your abusers, and a method to deal with your problems that just didn't replace them with dogma.



I am glad you are here now, but not so glad you didn't get the help you really needed back then.



"

Unique only in that i was the first that young.
i wouldn't need the help if they would take the tylenol out.:wink:

"Now I'm out of prison
Got me friend at last
He don't drink or cheat or steal or lie
His name is Codeine and
He's the nicest thing Ive seen and
Together were going to wait around and die
Together were going to wait around and die"
Townes Van Zandt
R.I.P.[ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 14:47 ]
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Offline landyh

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« Reply #213 on: November 23, 2005, 08:21:00 PM »
Quote



No, the truth of the matter may be hard to conceive, but the fact is that we were treated this way as a method to break our will.



"


I still stand by my comment regarding the little house. We had real cooking  and it was always something simple but good. Things really did start out different as hard as it may be to believe to those that wern't there but you hear some of my views expressed by people that were. To me it makes me sad. I don't know what Art Barker became but I do know that the program changed. In the beginning Art would accept money yes but not from the goverment. Too many strings attached. When I went back the second time Art was so islolated from the group for the most part he couldn't have known all that was going on. But its like people talking about getting hit there. i don't doubt them it just wasn't my experience. I still believe if he would have stayed with the roots of the program he could have actually had something worthwhile. I watch how AA works and it is truly amazing. They actually have a set of priciples in there traditions that keep shit like what happened to the seed from happening. Every group is different, self supporting, not allowed to use the press in any way.  I think Art knew Bill Wilson personally but if Bill W would have gotten his way AA could have easily gone the way of the seed. I think it was actually Rockefeller that turned Bill's request for money down and suggested some of what they eventually did. Personalities threaten AA groups all the time but the principles  keep things working pretty darn well. Of course they say in AA that all you need is a coffee pot and a resentment to get a new group started. Just a thought but if you accept that it probably wasn't good for many of the kids out there to continue using the way they were then you have to look at why you fight drug abuse differently than say alcoholism. In a very real way the life style of drugs was sort of a peer pressure cult too. It dictated how you dressed, what you listend to, how you acted, who you hung out with, pulled you away from family and there were rules and little special behaviors (hand shakes and peace signs). I always thought the point was that we were brainwashed to some extent by that culture to begin with. You might say you could leave anytime you wanted to but could you really walk away from 100 dollar a day habit on a whim? And if you did you face social ostrazation by the group. The only real difference is that in trying to fit in we drifted into the drug culture almost without realizing it. Nobody dragged us in. I know if I ever faced losing my child to what the drug culture really was at its core I would do whatever I could to stop it. I mean how would you feel about your own child huffing laquer thinner like I did. Even knowing what it did to the real huffers. I would be willing to resort to drastic action to save my child. How far is OK cause I was killing myself and while the seed couldn't stop it slowing it down probably saved my life. Even moving to Alcohol because of its social acceptabiity was an improvement in some way though for me potentialy just as deadly. I think the body politic creates alot of the problem by virtue of criminalization. just jabberin
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #214 on: November 24, 2005, 08:46:00 AM »
landy, i am glad to hear about you here. i agree with you about the idealism of the seed, i am sure in the early days (tho that toilet seat bothers me bad). i guess i was there for the 'middle period', 7 years and the sense of idealism was there. it inspired me. on the other hand, the conformity to the 'seed way' was stifling, and that was the ultimate reason i left.

i kind of look at things as you do - culture of conformity in the drug world too, after all, the standards were set by a bunch of kids, not written down. i was drawn to the 'counterculture' when i was a kid, because of the idealism, love, back to the land, the music, pretty girls, thinking i could be myself. then i found it to ne just as harsh a world as any, worse in some ways because i expected more. i was brutally disappointed and so i embraced the seed.

i don't go to AA, i have family that does. i take all in moderation, that is key for me. a glass of wine, great, but that's me. if my child was huffing lacquer thinner, what would i do?

w
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #215 on: November 24, 2005, 10:15:00 AM »
I've never found that druggie culture of conformity to exist. There's a school clique thing. If you think the straight edge jocks an cheerleaders are any less cruel than any other crowd you're trippin'. Not only are they about the meanest, but some of them revel in their ability to call down force of law on their rivals and enemies.

The pot heads I've knowd down through the years have all been pretty easy going about things like musical taste and fashion. So I just don't know where you guys found these controling, exclusive drug culture cells.

In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #216 on: November 24, 2005, 11:53:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-11-24 07:15:00, Antigen wrote:

"I've never found that druggie culture of conformity to exist. There's a school clique thing. If you think the straight edge jocks an cheerleaders are any less cruel than any other crowd you're trippin'. Not only are they about the meanest, but some of them revel in their ability to call down force of law on their rivals and enemies.



The pot heads I've knowd down through the years have all been pretty easy going about things like musical taste and fashion. So I just don't know where you guys found these controling, exclusive drug culture cells.

In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat


"


I was shunned by the jocks and the cheerleader clique because I was a druggy. If you are saying those groups are cult like too I never got to know enough about them to find out. I think a culture is more pervasive than a clique and if you are saying the drug culture was just a big clique I think that is incorrect.  Remember I ran with a somewhat  more coercive group than most can relate to. I can only speak from my point of experience and am willing to agree that yours could have been different. On the other hand I got into drugs in a time that using was only part of it. Hippy  culture which espoused individualism was just another group of clones. My group all wore the same elephant bell jeans, colored pocket t's, we were wearing our pants half off way before any rapper came along, You needed holes in the knees, dingo boots, patches, we espoused individualism, peace, love and happiness but in truth you had to fit in, leave or change the way you were to belong.  And while we espoused thosed ideals we were all a bunch of backstabbing thieves and liers. In fact the early seed was the first time I ever saw anything that resembled the ideals we talked about. I could let down my guard for the first time ever in my life and talk about things like fear which I could never show with my druggie friends.  Then somebody would share and say you know underneath it all I was just a scared little kid myself and I felt bad about turning away from the love of my family too. All my toughness was just a front. That was real acceptance to me to find out I could reveal what I felt inside and not only still be liked but but find out that I wasn't alone anymore. My friends were too "tough" to care about each other. I knew what it felt like to be enslaved to a group of habits that I knew were hurting me yet not be able to stop. SO I found some freedom for a time in the program too. I wish you could have been there in the beginning so you could understand how different things were. Because I agree that the seed I went to the second time was not the seed I went to the first time. But even going there helped in the sense that it go me to the place that I could fit in with some of the more "normal" kids at school. Did some of them drink or smoke a little pot? Sure but on the whole they were half way decent kids with some principles for the most part. Maybe more like the kids you knew? I wouldn't have got there without the seed because I couldn't see the world beyond what I had already experienced. Now my group was not maybe the norm. The percentage of pyschopathic monsters was astoninshingly high among them. You know that from my posts but I really want to talk from experience and not some study on what constitutes a cult. Before the seed I was decieving myself about what and who I was and when I got there they didn't tell me I was wrong they just said to look at it a little deeper see if there was something common in my deeper feelings with those of others in the group. There was a common thread and I could relate. All my drug use had done was expose me to the experience of violence and hate which I hadn't known before. Then I trapped myself in that life and tried to be more like them so I could survive. Singin zippity do da was good for me it what I should have been doing in the first place. For Gods sake I was a baby trying to put on a front that I was a man. The seed let me be a kid again for real inso far as I could go back. I often think if I could have been totally honest about what was really going on I might even have gotten better then. When you have buried rage though and you try to carry it off to the side it's bound to erupt every once in a while. Ginger I wonder why it is I like you so much even when we disagree. Maybe because your willing to listen but not take things at face value. Wonder where you got that from.:wink: Some might say  the seed just had me kidding myself in a different way. But they sent me inside myself for answers not outside so I don't think so. They didn't say we have the answers for you they said you have the answers inside of yourself if your willing to look there and look there hard. So now that I have wrapped my experience in pretty paper and tied it with a bow I have to say that my second time around wasn't quite right. They had given me the tools to see that, to recognize the rampant egotism of the newer staff, the forced and more coercive atmosphere. I am sure glad I went there the 1st time I wish you could have experienced it to. So I wouldn't have to type so much.   :wink:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #217 on: November 24, 2005, 11:58:00 AM »
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On 2005-11-24 05:46:00, cleveland wrote:

"landy, i am glad to hear about you here. i agree with you about the idealism of the seed, i am sure in the early days (tho that toilet seat bothers me bad). i guess i was there for the 'middle period', 7 years and the sense of idealism was there. it inspired me. on the other hand, the conformity to the 'seed way' was stifling, and that was the ultimate reason i left.



i kind of look at things as you do - culture of conformity in the drug world too, after all, the standards were set by a bunch of kids, not written down. i was drawn to the 'counterculture' when i was a kid, because of the idealism, love, back to the land, the music, pretty girls, thinking i could be myself. then i found it to ne just as harsh a world as any, worse in some ways because i expected more. i was brutally disappointed and so i embraced the seed.



i don't go to AA, i have family that does. i take all in moderation, that is key for me. a glass of wine, great, but that's me. if my child was huffing lacquer thinner, what would i do?


Ditto brother except for that moderation sh*t. Whats that all about? I sure wish I knew.

w"
:wink:
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Offline landyh

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« Reply #218 on: November 24, 2005, 12:07:00 PM »
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Ditto brother except for that moderation sh*t. Whats that all about? I sure wish I knew.
:wink:"


That was me sorry[ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-24 09:08 ]
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Offline marshall

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« Reply #219 on: November 24, 2005, 10:43:00 PM »
quote----------
" In a very real way the life style of drugs was sort of a peer pressure cult too. It dictated how you dressed, what you listend to, how you acted, who you hung out with, pulled you away from family and there were rules and little special behaviors (hand shakes and peace signs). I always thought the point was that we were brainwashed to some extent by that culture to begin with."
-----------------

First, welcome to the forum. I've really enjoyed reading your posts too. What you're describing here as the drug culture also describes virtually every social group through-out history. The 20's flappers had their own music,lingo and styles, the 50's greasers and today's kids have their own lingo, music, body-piercing, etc. It isn't unique to the drug-culture and could even be applied to american culture itself.  It also very much describes the culture of the Seed while I was there.

 " It dictated how you dressed, what you listend to, how you acted, who you hung out with, pulled you away from family and there were rules and little special behaviors.." That also describes the Seed through and through. I understand the idea was to use  peer pressure to counteract peer pressure. This can produce marked outward changes in whatever direction the group chooses. The method of conditioned thought-reform can be used to achieve any end. It can create good, conforming communists, make homosexuals (outwardly) into straight people, achieve conformity of belief and behaviour in religious groups. It all amounts to substituting one form of conditioning for another..without honestly examining the reasons and motivations behind conditioning itself. I question the whole idea of using coercive peer-pressure to modify behaviour of any sort.

Many people have benefited from groups like Scientology, SGI buddism, Hare Krishna and even the most bizarre and controlling groups have some good points or ideals. I view the Seed in much the same way as I do many of these sects. Such groups usually not only claim to have 'an' answer....but 'the' answer. This results in the type of one-size-fits-all approach prevalent at the Seed and similar programs.

Finally, I note that once again someone (yourself) who has battled on-going and recurrent addiction issues since the seed program credits that program with saving your life and testifies to it's effectiveness. In my view, that belief and conclusion is itself likely a result of the program's conditioning...or 'brainwashing' if you prefer a stronger term. I too parroted this part of the party-line for years after graduating the program. I only suggest that you apply the self-inquiry / honesty that was touted by the program to the program itself. Can honest self-inquiry and examination actually result from peer-pressure and conditioning? It's sort of like threatening to torture someone unless they love you. You might be able to get them to show outward signs of affection or speak the words you want to hear, but geniune love can't be produced via threat or coercion. Neither can genuine awareness be the result of comparison and belief. Self knowledge is not a form of conditioning and can not arise from any conditioning, however idealistic or well-intentioned. It arises from understanding the nature of all conditioning itself. Not just druggie culture conditioning as opposed to straight-world or seed conditioning...but includes examining so-called patriotism or nationalistic conditioning and various forms of religious conditioning and belief as well. Take care.
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Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #220 on: November 26, 2005, 12:47:00 PM »
Wow!

Ok, I haven't read your whole post yet (except I spotted my name, and I like you too :wink:) but I have to answer this:

Quote
On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

 Because I agree that the seed I went to the second time was not the seed I went to the first time. But even going there helped in the sense that it go me to the place that I could fit in with some of the more "normal" kids at school. Did some of them drink or smoke a little pot? Sure but on the whole they were half way decent kids with some principles for the most part.


I saw the same thing. So either it really happened that way or we're sharing a trip. See, my older brothers went in very near the beginning, I think in 1970. And the whole atmosphere was just so much more laid back. The blithe, vacant smiles and constant "luv ya's" as greeting and salutation, just like "Aloha" were a bit creepy. But, overall, I didn't get the feeling early on (now, this as a 6 or 7yo little kid) that it was a violent, hostile or overtly coercive group. Just weird, but in a mostly nice sort of way.

But that thing that you mention as a benefit? Being able to transition from an evidently very messed up social circle back into something more in line w/ community standards? That was quickly eliminated.

By the time I was starting to turn into a teenager, it was total isolation. The dogma had taken on a life of it's own. I don't think Art had any concept of what was happening or any real control of it. He was too high on all the adulation. If 90% of teenagers were druggies, as Art said (and Art was damned near infalible in my mother's eyes) then it's best not to take any chances. No problem if I wanted to hang out with my brother's 23yo ex junkie friends. But the guitar playing kid w/ the peach fuzz moustache? Why, his hair touches his collar... he might be a...... brilliant classical guitarist who went on to Berkeley music school on a musical scholarship by the time I escaped the Program and looked him up through his dad who was none too keen on an alleged former junkie trying to track down his son...

There was no fitting in. The plan changed. The entire culture became insular and paranoid so that transitioning back into the real world was seen as a failure. Anyone who did that would be shunned totally, even by family.




It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002ORZ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Louis Armstrong

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #221 on: November 26, 2005, 01:05:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

Some might say the seed just had me kidding myself in a different way. But they sent me inside myself for answers not outside so I don't think so. They didn't say we have the answers for you they said you have the answers inside of yourself if your willing to look there and look there hard. So now that I have wrapped my experience in pretty paper and tied it with a bow I have to say that my second time around wasn't quite right. They had given me the tools to see that, to recognize the rampant egotism of the newer staff, the forced and more coercive atmosphere. I am sure glad I went there the 1st time I wish you could have experienced it to. So I wouldn't have to type so much.  


Yeah, I think maybe to a degree. I think maybe there's a big difference between how people perceive the whole experience based on whether they really want and need help or not. For you? Telling the truth may have fit the Program; it was just what they wanted to hear. For me? I had to keep it all bottled up and carefully hidden. Was I depressed and careless? Oh yeah! Why? Because I was trying to impress druggiefriends who always treated me badly and stuff?  :rofl:

Well, that's what I had to say. But it never had been true. I didn't HAVE any friends, damne it! Except the other jr Seedling, who was a boy 4 years younger than me. When I got to be about 12 or 13, I was embarrased to be seen w/ him, so I quit hanging out with even him. I was just starting to make a couple of real friends. It just happens that they sampled the pharmacopia.  That was way on the periffery, nothing like a central issue. The reasons why we were starting to be friends were things like speaking up for me when the cheerleaders were especially cruel to me. Or the one classmate, student government officer, cheerleader and all, who risked her political currency by stating that I had been right and she wasn't going to rat me out for finally defending myself against another persistant bully in the locker room.

Real stuff. The real stuff that I needed. But I couldn't let my mother find out I had friends at all because... well, like any good DA can indict a ham sandwich, all teenagers were suspect. And we just don't want to go there, do we? Since my Bible teacher was my pastor and my science teacher, part time band instructor and tennis coach was my deacon and sunday school teacher, I couldn't have friends or it would get back to her.

THAT is why I was so fucking depressed! I don't know what would have happened in the early Seed if I had sat voluntarily on front row for three days then stood up and said "Know what? This isn't for me. I have no idea what you fucked up people are talking about." and walked away. In the 2nd generation Seed that I found myself in 10 years later, there would have been violence. So I had to lie and call it Honesty. Just like most of the rest of us did.

I can't imagine that, at your tender age and given the kind of trauma you'd been through, that the Program dogma didn't maybe unduely influence your thinking. But I don't think you're out to coerce anyone to agree with you or otherwise do any harm with it. So I really don't have a problem with it. I do have an interest, though. So just let me know if I come off as disrespectful or mean spirited. I'm really not. But I am fascinated w/ this whole story. See, I can't get family history out of my family. That's partly due to their Victorian roots on one side and raw acrimony on the other. But a big part of it is that I'm an apostate to Program culture while they're all either militant Stepcraft practitioners or they're humoring the others in the name of peace. In a big way, this IS my family history.

I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist



_________________
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Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Offline landyh

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« Reply #222 on: November 28, 2005, 04:45:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-26 10:05:00, Antigen wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-11-24 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:




Yeah, I think maybe to a degree. I think maybe there's a big difference between how people perceive the whole experience based on whether they really want and need help or not. For you? Telling the truth may have fit the Program; it was just what they wanted to hear. For me? I had to keep it all bottled up and carefully hidden. Was I depressed and careless? Oh yeah! Why? Because I was trying to impress druggiefriends who always treated me badly and stuff?  :rofl:



Well, that's what I had to say. But it never had been true. I didn't HAVE any friends, damne it! Except the other jr Seedling, who was a boy 4 years younger than me. When I got to be about 12 or 13, I was embarrased to be seen w/ him, so I quit hanging out with even him. I was just starting to make a couple of real friends. It just happens that they sampled the pharmacopia.  That was way on the periffery, nothing like a central issue. The reasons why we were starting to be friends were things like speaking up for me when the cheerleaders were especially cruel to me. Or the one classmate, student government officer, cheerleader and all, who risked her political currency by stating that I had been right and she wasn't going to rat me out for finally defending myself against another persistant bully in the locker room.



Real stuff. The real stuff that I needed. But I couldn't let my mother find out I had friends at all because... well, like any good DA can indict a ham sandwich, all teenagers were suspect. And we just don't want to go there, do we? Since my Bible teacher was my pastor and my science teacher, part time band instructor and tennis coach was my deacon and sunday school teacher, I couldn't have friends or it would get back to her.



THAT is why I was so fucking depressed! I don't know what would have happened in the early Seed if I had sat voluntarily on front row for three days then stood up and said "Know what? This isn't for me. I have no idea what you fucked up people are talking about." and walked away. In the 2nd generation Seed that I found myself in 10 years later, there would have been violence. So I had to lie and call it Honesty. Just like most of the rest of us did.



I can't imagine that, at your tender age and given the kind of trauma you'd been through, that the Program dogma didn't maybe unduely influence your thinking. But I don't think you're out to coerce anyone to agree with you or otherwise do any harm with it. So I really don't have a problem with it. I do have an interest, though. So just let me know if I come off as disrespectful or mean spirited. I'm really not. But I am fascinated w/ this whole story. See, I can't get family history out of my family. That's partly due to their Victorian roots on one side and raw acrimony on the other. But a big part of it is that I'm an apostate to Program culture while they're all either militant Stepcraft practitioners or they're humoring the others in the name of peace. In a big way, this IS my family history.



I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist





_________________

Drug war POW

Straight, Sarasota

`80 - `82"

I don't really know what to say Antigen. I find your post to be heartbreaking. I know myself that while my experiences are terrible the worst of them came from forces outside of my family. So I had that no matter what even if it wasn't perfect. I am sorry you didn't. Do I find your posts to be mean spirited? Not in the least. I mean do I see anger in them? Yes! But not at all as directed  towards me. The Seed was a safe place for me the 1st time and I needed everyone of those "luvyas". It was a net gain for me. Because I didn't believe anybody would really accept what I really thought I was inside I never really could tell anybody. I wish I could have. I believe it kept me from getting better. I don't blame them for not being aware enough to know. Because it seems a few knew, tried to reach my hurt and I wouldn't let them. Reading about your own pain brings out my compassion, my own pain, breaks me inside and out. We were both robbed of something but in different ways. But do you see a difference in that my own trauma was from a source whose motives were to wound maybe to make me experience there own trauma's in some way. They were ill intentioned, sick, even evil. Is there no comfort in the motives that created your own pain. Seems to me that though misguided the intentions were of a different source than that of my own pain. I don't speak here to minimize your feelings because I think I grasp at least to an extent there depth. For Gods's sake i cried for you when I read this. But if peace may be found in forgiveness then and I'm not telling you it is but that it might begin there does not the intent of those who hurt you at least crack open the gateway to that path. Wherin do I find my own peace surely my own options are different. I find some in the exploration of our shared though different pain. I  thank you for that. I find myself shaken by your message to wish for your healing and no less my own. One thing that is clear to me is that the time has come for all of us to seek and find our own "answer" however and wherever we can. I just happen to belive (not know)that surely it lies somewhere in a distance beyond blame.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #223 on: November 28, 2005, 06:27:00 PM »
Don't cry for me Argentina....

Seriously, yeah, I'm over it. But still interested in getting the word out. See, the Seed wasn't the only Synanon based program for teens that Bobby DuPont bankrolled. There are dozens of them out there derived from the Seed/Straight line and some hundreds more grown out of the CEDU "therapeutic" boarding schools. TC has become the accepted model for treatment of any old thang that afflicts the parents of teenagers today. I think people need to understand what that means.

And no doubt in my mind at all that it all started with good intentions. But you know what they say about good intentions.

If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
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Offline landyh

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« Reply #224 on: November 29, 2005, 08:46:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-28 15:27:00, Antigen wrote:

"Don't cry for me Argentina....



Seriously, yeah, I'm over it. But still interested in getting the word out. See, the Seed wasn't the only Synanon based program for teens that Bobby DuPont bankrolled. There are dozens of them out there derived from the Seed/Straight line and some hundreds more grown out of the CEDU "therapeutic" boarding schools. TC has become the accepted model for treatment of any old thang that afflicts the parents of teenagers today. I think people need to understand what that means.



And no doubt in my mind at all that it all started with good intentions. But you know what they say about good intentions.

If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician

"

Yes and I saw some of the changes so I do understand some of the strong feelings people have. Just out of curiosity does anybody here know if Teen Challenge is based on the same model that these other programs were? I am curious because my best friend and love was just disapeared into that program where I can have no contact with her. She went in voluntarily and felt she needed the help they offer and I hope she is right as I wish her nothing but the peace and happiness that she seeks I just don't really want her subjected either. And yes before anyone else says it I do recognize the terrific irony of a 44 year old man whose girlfriend is in Teen Challenge. It makes me laugh a little anyway when I think of it or would if I didn't miss her so terribly. She was there for me over the last five years through thick and thin and the loss has been very difficult and painful for me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Whatever thou put his hand to do it with all thy might\" King Solomon