Author Topic: What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?  (Read 1657 times)

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Offline Antigen

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« on: January 04, 2005, 10:26:00 PM »
"The best way for the American people
to send a message to the Bush administration
and the world that 'we the people' of the
United States do not condone torture
is to mobilize to reject the nomination
of Alberto Gonzales."

-- Ron Daniels, Executive Director, the Center for Constitutional Rights


President Bush's nomination of White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales
to be the next Attorney General would elevate the architect of the
Administration's torture policy to the position of the chief law
enforcement officer in the land. His confirmation hearing begins on
January 5. Please help us oppose this travesty of justice - tell your
representatives: "tough questions are not enough." Send a message to
the Bush Administration and the world that the American people do not
condone torture.

Mr. Gonzales is the author of the infamous "torture memo" that called
the Geneva Conventions "obsolete" and "quaint," and he has argued for
virtually limitless presidential power to evade or circumvent laws
and treaties on the theory that the Commander-in-Chief is not
accountable to the Judiciary as it relates to the "war against
terrorism." The memos Gonzales authored and commissioned paved the
way to the abuse and torture of detainees at Guantanamo Bay and Abu
Ghraib, many of whom are represented by the Center for Constitutional
Rights. At CCR, we have seen the terrible effect of the evasion of
the rule of law on human beings first hand. There is no question but
that there is a causal link between the memoranda and other
directives devised by Mr. Gonzales and the horrible infractions
committed by officers in the field.

As White House counsel, Gonzales consistently treated the law as an
inconvenient obstacle and ignored the expertise of those who
disagreed with him. He argued that U.S. citizens could be held
incommunicado and stripped of the right to counsel and the right to
challenge their detention in a court of law for as long as the
President deemed necessary. He hosted meetings where they discussed
the use of specific torture techniques, including mock burial and
"water boarding," where the victim is made to feel that he is
drowning. Gonzales and his circle approved the use of dogs, hooding,
and extreme sensory deprivation, all forbidden by the Geneva
Conventions and the International Covenant Against Torture. He
redefined torture to limit it to only those actions that lead to
organ failure, death or permanent psychological damage. Gonzales
justified this relaxed definition of torture on the grounds that in a
time of war, interrogators need to extract information from prisoners
quickly to save American lives. However, it has long been established
by experts in the field that torture leads to false confessions and
bad intelligence. The policies advocated by Mr. Gonzales will expose
our own troops to danger the world over for decades to come.

In their scathing editorial on the nomination, The Washington Post
linked Mr. Gonzales directly to the tortures at Abu Ghraib and called
his legal positions "damaging and erroneous." Newsweek wrote that
"Gonzales ultimately signed off on all of the administration's most
controversial legal moves."

Many members of Congress have said that they will not oppose Mr.
Gonzales's nomination, that he will only be made to answer tough
questions before sailing through the confirmation process. We at the
Center for Constitutional Rights object to giving an architect of
torture a promotion. We reiterate, tough questions are not enough.
Please ask your Congressional representatives and the members of the
Senate Judiciary Committee to stand up and oppose the nomination of
Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General. We hope you will join us in
declaring that this man and his policies do not represent who we are
as Americans!

Please circulate this widely and quickly - the hearings begin the
first week of the New Year! To send a letter, click here.

http://www.ccr-ny.org/actionalert

Sincerely yours,

Ron Daniels
Executive Director
Center for Constitutional Rights

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline thepatriot

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2005, 05:13:00 PM »
"Miguel Estrada, President Bush's original choice for a seat on the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, faced similar opposition ,as does Janice Rogers Brown, the California Supreme Court judge whom the president nominated for the same seat after a threatened Democratic filibuster doomed Estrada's confirmation. What all three have in common--in addition to being highly qualified lawyers--is that they are also members of minority groups, African American in the case of Brown. It irks some Democrats that a Republican president keeps naming blacks and Hispanics to such unprecedented, high-level posts. Liberals believe they own the franchise on minorities and can't stand any Hispanic or black who breaks rank, that is the only reason Dems on the hill are fighting against his nomination. Keep in mind all these acusations about tourture and Geneva convention violations are nothing more tha accusations by the other party.We are not fighting in a war where the Geneva convention is recognized. What the media and some of you are calling torture is a part of war and could actually end up saving one of your family members some day. There are no rules in war , what part of that don't you understand, where are the rules when these thugs behead innocent contractors trying to rebuild their sorry ass country. So we throw a few pairs of panties over the face of a towel head, big fucking deal. Since when does a fucking terrorists have constitutional rights? All I see in that article are a lot of accusations with no facts to back it up other than a few quotes from the "Washington Post" :lol:  :lol:  shit enough said, that rag is nothing more than a liberal tabloid for idiots on the hill.[ This Message was edited by: thepatriot on 2005-01-06 14:17 ]
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arasota Straight Escapee

Offline Antigen

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2005, 05:31:00 PM »
These are not terrorists. These are suspects. Hundreds of thousands of them.

Patriot, are you really happy w/ "not quite as bad as a psychotic religious fanatic" as a proper standard of conduct for our government? I'm not. If we allow our government to abuse people around the world, they will eventually do our job for us and remove our government from power. I think it's far, far better for us, for the rest of the world and for the future of freedom and self rule if we do it ourselves through civil means first.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline thepatriot

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2005, 05:37:00 PM »
Ginger I really do respect your opinion, but I don't believe if we talk to some of these people "nicely" that we will ever avoid another attack on our own soil. Actually I think we should turn them over to some of the UN countries where extreme torture and starvation are the rule of the day, then maybe we will get somewhere(Kidding) Yes some are suspects and some are known terrorists, but I still think we do are far more humane job at it then the rest of the world. Unless we are talking about France but they have no balls or spines only turned up noses :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
arasota Straight Escapee

Offline Antigen

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2005, 09:50:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-06 14:37:00, thepatriot wrote:

"Ginger I really do respect your opinion, but I don't believe if we talk to some of these people "nicely" that we will ever avoid another attack on our own soil. Actually I think we should turn them over to some of the UN countries where extreme torture and starvation are the rule of the day, then maybe we will get somewhere(Kidding) Yes some are suspects and some are known terrorists, but I still think we do are far more humane job at it then the rest of the world. Unless we are talking about France but they have no balls or spines only turned up noses :lol:  :lol:  :lol: "


Oh, I agree. But, as I said, better than the most sadistic, psychotic megalomaniac currently widely known on the entire planet just isn't good enough.

Look, we do have a pretty inordinate influence on world events. How'd that happen? It has little to do w/ natural resources. So. America has far more than No. America. The Mid East certainly has the oil that the rest of us need. So. America's has plenty too, but not the stability and infrastructure. But that's coming along.

America has a particular charm and influence in this world that our Federal Government is squandering, shooting in the foot.

We all know (especially those of us who went through the Program) that fucking w/ people's sleep, sensory control, humiliation and harassment are all good ways to temporarily addle their brains. They don't result in better information gathering. They result in the subject being ever more inclined to more passionately either dispise or to agree w/ the tormentor.

If there were a legitimate purpose then we'd have to consider the risk/benefit ratio. But there is no benefit unless...

...unless the objective is not really to get better information, but to terrorize, demoralize and thoroughly break the enemy. That's a turkey shoot, as we've all seen. We surely can accomplish that, no problem. Then what? Do you really see yourself proudling explaining to your grandchildren how America became the world's leading slave-making nation?

I don't. And I don't think I'm alone in that. I think we have done and can do far better than that.

We don't have to talk to them nicely, or at all really. I think if we start by not dropping bombs on them, not setting up pupet dictatorships like the Taliban and Sadam and the Ihatola that would be a start toward peaceful coexistance. We could go further by not buying weapons for various other players in the region.

Not saying don't trade other goods or slam shut the borders. Just saying that we should get our government to quit bankrolling and policing every damned border dispute on the fucking planet. I can't speak to the organic lunatics. But I can tell you that they generally never develop any significant following unless there's some reason.

Lets talk about the addressable problems, solve those and then deal w/ the unaddressable problems that are left.

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."
--John Quincy Adams, Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives [July 4, 1821]

I want the old deal back, damn it!

The problem with the "teen help" industry is that it's a bad "solution" in search of a problem.

http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=943' target='_new'>Julie C.

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Offline Antigen

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2005, 10:00:00 PM »
And, btw, I respect you too. I don't know if I'd say I respect your opinion on this topic. Obviously, we disagree. But I know you just barely well enough to respect your intent.

May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline thepatriot

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2005, 10:17:00 PM »
Thanks Ginger, we agree on more than you think, but ya gotta love debate, we dodged alot of the same bullets on the same battlefield years ago and I am glad we can both debate here :wink:  :wink: , I'll take you on my side any day, you got a big heart and you mean well weather I agree with you or not. That means alot
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arasota Straight Escapee

Offline Antigen

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2005, 02:59:00 PM »
Me too
 ::kiss::

"The Libertarian Party is a coalition of those who hold dear the economic freedoms championed by conservatives, yet abandoned by Republicans, and the civil freedoms championed by liberals, yet abandoned by Democrats."


--Rick Root

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Offline Anonymous

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2005, 03:05:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-07 11:59:00, Antigen wrote:

"Me too

 ::kiss::

"The Libertarian Party is a coalition of those who hold dear the economic freedoms championed by conservatives, yet abandoned by Republicans, and the civil freedoms championed by liberals, yet abandoned by Democrats."


--Rick Root


"


Ginger, looks like your dad's been at it again.  Apropos quote.

It really is nice to see people debate and disagree without ripping each other to shreds. :tup:
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Offline Antigen

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What's Alberto Gonzales afraid of?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2005, 09:17:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-01-07 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:


Ginger, looks like your dad's been at it again.  Apropos quote.


I know! And check this one out too:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=D#74653

The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451524934/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>O'Brien, the apparatchik

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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