Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
Group Think
cleveland:
See FL, you were a jock after all!
I do remember the look of joy on your face when you caught a pass. Now, I DID like ping-pong - we played it all day long at that one old apartment in N. Miami - had a terazzo floor and a fountain in the LR, grapefruit and orange trees in the yard...
Happy Holidays to all!
jgar:
Hey Anon,
I can see your point of view and agree with you in most of the aspects that you stated. In my case the Seed helped me immensely and in fact the Seed did what it said it would do and that was to get me off drugs. The Seed also showed me the origins and causes of my problems and that my drug use was just a symptom some other more deep rooted problems. Self understanding and awareness is what the Seed attempted to teach and for the most part it was learned and interpreted by each person differently.
On the site there are people that are diehard 100 % Seed loyalists than there are the diehard 100 % anti-Seeds who are convinced Seed had no good to offer and that the Seed left everlasting scars. Then there are people like myself in which I believe the Seed did much good but on the same hand the Seed had some imperfects.
I believe the Seed experience is up to each and ever person who experienced the program to be free to interpreted their experience as either positive or negative. I get such a kick from the people (Anti-Seed) that violently attack those who post those who have anything positive to say, insinuated that we have been so duped and can?t we see how the Seed was all part of some kind of interrelated government conspiracy to gain the control of the minds of middle America thru the manipulation of our adolescent years. Personally I find this mindset just as closed minded as the people who take the opposite stand. On the other hand this free exchange of ideas can encourage a more open examination of one?s experience.
I believe good or bad begin at the point of intent. What was the intent or the purpose of something? Was it to do good? I believe the Seed intentions were sound and good was the methodology always perfect? Personally after my 6 years at the Seed I never found any evidence of deliberate intent to destroy one?s life just the opposite I saw how people pulled together to help someone. What did hurt was the extremism of people?s actions in how people would profess their loyalty toward the Seed or how certain people almost deified Art. This allowed the group to take a life of its own and after a while the group became kind of inbred and sealed away from the so called real world creating for people an alternative reality. This is what I found so flawed and created my internal conflict which ultimately caused my leaving. In the end this bitter sweet experience served only to deepen my understanding. It?s all in the attitude and in the light in which we choose to see things in.
Through only my personal observations during my time spent at the Seed is how I base my opinions on my Seed experience.
Antigen:
--- Quote ---On 2005-12-22 07:56:00, jgar wrote:
I get such a kick from the people (Anti-Seed) that violently attack those who post those who have anything positive to say, insinuated that we have been so duped and can?t we see how the Seed was all part of some kind of interrelated government conspiracy to gain the control of the minds of middle America thru the manipulation of our adolescent years. Personally I find this mindset just as closed minded as the people who take the opposite stand. On the other hand this free exchange of ideas can encourage a more open examination of one?s experience.
. . .
I never found any evidence of deliberate intent to destroy one?s life just the opposite
. . .
Through only my personal observations during my time spent at the Seed is how I base my opinions on my Seed experience.
--- End quote ---
Right, well, I've never found any evidence of any deliberate attempt to destroy anyone either. What I have found through personal observation is some very well intended people falling prey to the ever present law of unintended consequences. All the good intentions in the world don't make right some of the things that went on routinely at the Seed.
As for the government involvement, well unless you have been in the loop on that level, you'd have to go outside of your own personal experience and read about it. It's there, clearly. Wes Fager has put together an astounding expose on the topic.
Just read. Bobby DuPont, as head of NIDA under Nixon did, indeed, make a formal recomendation to spread the Synanon method accross the country at public expense. He then did act on that intention when he granted over a million to the Seed. There's no denying that DFAF is Straight, Inc. after two name changes. And they make no secret of their mission to influence public policy and spending to further that same stated goal.
Here's a Google Search on "Drug Free America Act" which returns a couple of hundred references.
I didn't make this stuff up. I just checked to find out if my suspicions were founded or not. Sadly, they were.
A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
Ludwig Von Mises
--- End quote ---
jgar:
Just for the record Art Barker despised Richard Nixon and always blamed Nixon?s plumbers for deliberately trying to shut down the Seed in it's early years. Some government agency (under order?s from the White house) conducted an audit at the Seed because of some public statement Art made endorsing Edwin Musky, during a failed run for the presidency. Because of this and because Art would have to relinquished control of the Seed into government hands I am convinced that Art would have never agreed to any of this.
In spite of what you may think (again I will say that I was not that close to Art during my years at the Seed) Art did believe in what he was doing was right and good. I say this not to negate your opinion but to say only what I observed. I was not present when this audit happened and perhaps someone who was there could shed some more light on this situation.
As per any type of study that might have been done (as has been stated before in this forum) has to be carefully scrutinized before any kind of validity can be given. As you well know things can be politically motivated and intent might not be true or pure. I have read or heard about studies that taken for the face value looked good but than carefully looking into the claims or conclusions the findings are just way off. This is why I always state that my opinions are based only through my years and experiences there. This is why I only give importance to opinions stated by the people who actually went thru the program.
[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-22 09:11 ]
FueLaw:
jgar, while I don't agree with your position on the Seed I do agree with your approach in discussing the Seed. As I was attempting to point out on another thread the Seed experience in completely dependent on where a person was in there life. The more hooked on drugs ect... the more likely you were to be receptive to the program.
It also is dependent on the time period when you were in the program. I make my $$$ arguing with people but I can't argue with people who were part of the original Seed or who came in time periods after me. The experience was completely different because the Seed was completely different.
Please keep in mind that the person who argues the most against the Seed never spent a day in the program and has no logical point of reference to argue from.
Like you I only base my opinions on the Seed during the period I was in there, May '73-July'74, I was not there for footbal or softball, there were no social/athletic activities during my time period. Just 10-10's until you progressed in the program. When you graduated you were done. During my time period very few people went to old timer's raps after they graduated.
I also agree that most of the studies are probably worthless. I never meet a single person who was ever interviewed by a person conducting a so called study. In addition I don't need a study to tell me what did and did not happen while I was in there.
In terms of short and or long term "Benefit" from the Seed that also depends on the factors we have previously discussed. The people that were older, more mature and really wanted help getting off drugs probably did benefit in some ways. The people that did not want to be there and who were forced to be there probably did not derive any benefit's from the program. The Seeds claim of 90% success rate, which is what they were boasting during my time period, was a complete fabrication.
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