Group Think

[GregFL]

You two guys just outline how different the seed was for different people.  For the vast majority of us, we graduated and got the hell away from it as soon as we could.  

You guys that choose to stay around take an entirely different perspective from the seed experience than the 'normal' seed attendee or graduate.  Most of us that graduated and then tried to leave never had that severe attachment or hard breakup that you others' had.  I always wondered how you people viewed your experience as it seemed such an alien concept to me that someone would stay around there voluntarily after they could just leave and go on with their lives.

I see evidence in your writings that guilt laden coersion was a part of the reason you guys stayed around, mixed with a sense of idealistic purpose and misplaced loyalty.  I hope you don't take this wrong, but it seems a bit sad that you guys devoted so much time and energy into the seed instead of devoting that energy into living a less directed and controlled life.  It is also inspiring that you were able to break away and come to terms with the experience and find purpose away from the group.  It is a really, really, interesting story you tell.

[jgar]

Hey Walt and thanks,

This to me was such a mind fuck. At first as I tried to strike out in the world thinking that I was so sure of what was right and what I needed to say and do and finding out how easily people would drop me or avoid me(both from the Seed and new acquaintances). Than at some point true loneliness kicked in and a very real sense of being so alone. Still I held onto the idea that if I made some adjustments and continued to move forward I would come out OK. It?s funny how with time so many questions get answered and a fuzzy picture slowly begins to clear. The group never realized that hiding behind its wall would stunt one?s growth. I agree with you in saying my true growth happened outside the group once I had learned certain basic lessons.

 I remember at first how careful I was in daring to question some of the Seeds positions as if I was being some sort of heretic and would be burned at the stake for daring to think different. I was very cautious with dealing with other graduates who were still involved careful as not to say the wrong thing. On one occasion I was shunned by another graduated because I was no longer part of the group and how hurt and angered I was by this situation but yet this only confirmed to me the importance to go and develop in my own way.

I will say that not until I began to post on this sight did I dare to strike out with some negative aspects so openly in my words.   In truth I would not even allow myself to think of these things fearing that this could cause my unraveling and ultimately my destruction.  

To this day I will state that the Seed did change me when I needed to change but this did not mean that I needed to be an indentured servant for the rest of my days.

?But than again it?s only life after all?. (Indigo girls ?Closer to Fine")

[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-12-21 07:40 ]

[Johnny G]

THere was a period where the Seed was trying to retain people, as the newcomer rate was pretty slow - and everyone was from some distance away.

In my case the only people I knew outside the program didn't have a lot to offer (I was working at JT Reese, stay cool roofing, construction).  So the easiest thing to do was to stick around - also the rhetoric encouraged that.  I think if I had stayed in Cleveland I would have gone home after I graduated.  My mother came to hate Art Barker about a weekafter I moved to Ft. Lauderdale so I think I would have pretty much disappeared.

I think the Seed gave me the opportunity to get out of the mess I had gotten myself in - one can second guess the prison dead or crazy bit but I gotta say I came out better than I went in.  

As far as being around as long as I was, as mentioned above, the program encouraged that.  I also had set a goal of not fucking up for 5 years and leaving under my own power(5 years seemed to be a milestone - and the folks I initally viewed as more together had been around that long).
 
I accomplished that and left very shortly thereafter - I did feel like I left in the nick of time; A Staff member had mentioned spending more time in the group after a conversation I had with a female seed kid got reported up the ladder.

I was fortunate to be around for the period after the open meetings and before the football games at the beach.  That was a good (but short lived) time when there was a definite break in the routine and control - went mud boggin' in Jeffs truck (cracked the windshield with my head) and got stuck up to the axles.  Twisted a few wrenches, did some fishing, had fun.

I also think it eased the transition quite a bit that I worked away from other seedlings, so I could be myself at work (someone noticed that I was happiest on Monday morning and almost bummed out on Friday afternoon)

Once the football games started I was lucky to be able to "watch the house" most of the time.

I worked my leaving in with a visit home so I could work things out in a more timely manner, came back a week early, got my stuff one afternoon and moved to Coconut Grove.  I wasn't really interested in what the Seed thought of my decision.

It took me a couple years to get adjusted to the freedom and the social aspect of life, I felt like Rip van Winkle.

[cleveland]

Johnny G.

Your post brought back many memories - Stay Cool roofing, J.T. Reese, and some good times, too. I remember that brief period of almost freedom as a time when the Seed staff was trying to figure out what to do with the graduates who were sticking around, especially when we weren't at work or in the group. Most of us got assigned to tasks - watching Art's house, working on his boat, cutting grass, fixing cars. We were glad to do it too - we were working together, and having a blast sometimes. We also had a bit more free time on the weekends, once the regular weekend raps were shortened, then eliminated. I drove down to the Keys with Jim H. and a couple of other guys - we drove 70 miles an hour on the wrong side of the road, poached lobsters from the bay, and laughed our asses off - all the fun you can have sober and celebate at age 20! We did a midnight fishing trip in the everglades, and a couple of other things, until staff came upon a solution - endless weekend games of football and baseball! And I do mean endless - starting at 11:00 am or so and going on until 1:00 am or so at first, plus digging out the drainage ditches in the back field and making a baseball diamond by hand. And let me tell you what - I am a particulary bad and uninterested ball player. I would rather get a root canal. And since that became our only weekend option for some years after you left, my life was hell - OK, not as bad as prison or death, but certainly torture. Plus, the jealous feelings for those who were gifted at sports, because of the attention they got and because they were actually having fun doing something that I couldn't stand - it was like a never ending 7th grade PE class of dodgeball.

I'm still bitter, can you tell?

Anyway, after I left, freedom tasted so, so, so sweet. Of course, I was lonely and confused at times too, and made many mistakes but - I think I made the most of my freedom.

And Greg, yes, it's crazy that there is a group of us who volunteered for 5-7-10 years to be a part of this small small group - but Johnny G. remeinded me of why I stayed, and why I left, too.

[jgar]

Just for the record I was not fond of the football games. I loved going to the beach but not the endless football games and I was not crazy about playing spades. I just figured you take the good with the bad. I did really enjoy body suffering or the bogie boards or snorkeling.

[Johnny G]

I always thought the only people having fun were on Arts team, the rest of us were just there to get beat.

Tried playing hard once or twice and found out that the loser team was just supposed to go thru the motions.  Then I got banished to the house to work on something, or just watch TV, hang out, whatever - it was alone time, somewhat free to at least think my own thoughts and relax.  I am also athletically challenged especially when it involves round or spheroid objects that you should throw, hit or catch.  WHat exposure I had to the games there definitely sucked, so it WAS a privledge to have something else to do.

[jgar]

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

LOL Johnny.
I think you left the Seed just before I came in. I went in around October of 83

[Anonymous]

greg, its only sad if its wasted. and you can do soemthing like this, not neccessarily even what you want and not feel it was wasted. or lets say, fully wasted. if there was something useful during that time, then it was worth some price. i've thought about that for myself personally, choosing to stay when i knew there were things i did not like, but it met certain goals at the time. maybe another choice might have been better, but then we dont get to live the alternate reality so i wouldnt know if something else would have turned out better or worse. but i dont think my time was wasted, or better stated, all of my time was wasted. some things i just ignored, like i was spinning my wheels and i knew it but was just waiting for something else. taking what good there was as more important at the time then what i was giving up. every decision in life can offer some gain, and some loss. its a matter of what your goal is in this way. my goal was met in some regards, so i never felt that was wasted. this was just a choice. one direction of many i could have gone. i knew i chose to stay. i knew i sacraficed some things by doing so. it was annoying living with people who had more difficulty with roomates then i did, even though they might have been older, silly to listen to them lecture. but i knew what i was doing. i think the people that had the hardest time at the end, were the ones that stayed but never knew why. maybe it was peer pressure, maybe they just didnt know what they wanted in life, or fear kept them there. i think they have the hardest time because they feel like they never made a choice? one reason why i think you have to take control of your life, making your own decisions, or asking advice if I want you to but knowing you are soliciting someone's opinion and giving up your own free will if you chose to listen. its still all your choice. they dont suffere the consequences if the person's advice is bad, you do. some people just didnt seem to get that. i watch some of them now still looking for someone else to tell them what to do. makes me want to scream. after all that, and yet they still dont want to make their own choices? mind you...they complain about how they couldnt make choices...but they repeat the behavior. now thats frustrating.
i've said it before, but i think the biggest tradegy at the seed was it preached one thing, but did another (i.e.think for yourself, but surpressed free thinking) and people didnt either have enough sense to see the duality, or for various reasons surpressed their thoughts when they saw it, a bit like jgar is talkingh about questioning his thoughts that might have questioned the seeds perfection. some people just seemed to think well the seed has to be perfect, so it must be me thats wrong....when it wasnt them. they were seeing parts of the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous,
I get what you are saying here. Sure I was court ordered into the seed. Yes, I fought signing the intake paper. No, I didn't want to be there. Yes, I was scared- only because I had no idaea what the seed was all about. For myself, I listened to the raps, and low and behold, I started learning something about myself. I was 17 yrs old in 1973 St.Pete seed. I had been running away all the time, selling drugs, doing every drug I could get my hands on, I drank myself to oblivion, had some very bad trips, and lost it on PCP at school. I helped with strong armed robbery, broke into cars and homes. I would hit my mom with anything I could grab a hold on, including an iron. I screwed up my families life. Me and my subconscious decisions.
I was just surviving. Not living, not feeling, just running. Away form what, whom??? Myself.
 In the seed I felt a part of something different. Sure I hated the 10 - 10's. Hvaing to live with the feamle staff for a month, but guess what? I learned I hated myself. I didn't even know what real feelings were. I was an empty shell walking around this planet without a clue.
  I became very close to many people, and believe it or not Susie Connors took me under her wing. I be able to go in the back office and sit there with her, just talking. She never talked down to me, she listened to me, and guided me.
To me, the seed is not a frickin cult. It was the only place in town where kids like me could go and learn something about myself, and have lifelong bonds of frienships. I have lost 17 old friends through overdose. I would be dead right along with them if my parents didn't make the choice to lift me up out of the streets and put me somewhere where I couldn't self-destruct anymore. I learned I had choices, and those choices I made would be good for me, or I would suffer the consequences. I am remaining anon because I can't stand drama, and I just don't choose to hear the rebuttles.
  That's all from me, a former seedling who is still alive and very happy.

[marshall]

anon wrote:

---------qutoe------
"To me, the seed is not a frickin cult. It was the only place in town where kids like me could go and learn something about myself, and have lifelong bonds of frienships. I have lost 17 old friends through overdose. I would be dead right along with them if my parents didn't make the choice to lift me up out of the streets and put me somewhere where I couldn't self-destruct anymore. I learned I had choices, and those choices I made would be good for me, or I would suffer the consequences. I am remaining anon because I can't stand drama, and I just don't choose to hear the rebuttles."
----------

Since you're choosing not to hear this, I suppose it's pointless..but: Ever wonder why you can't stand the drama (of someone disagreeing with you or questioning what you say) or why you choose not to hear the rebuttals? Doesn't real honesty mean the willingness and ability to question ourselves and entertain the possibility that we may be mistaken? The Seed demanded that we do this in regards to our pre-seed life. So why not apply the same principle to examining our conclusions, beliefs and assumptions about the Seed program itself and the effects it might have had upon us? BTW, I think I learned some good things at the Seed too and was able to use them to positive effect...especially after I was out of the program itself. But this in no way inhibits my willingness to attempt to honestly examine the program or it's methodology. I'm glad you have a good and happy life. Happy holidays to all.

[Stripe]

Anon Wrote:For myself, I listened to the raps, and low and behold, I started learning something about myself.

Really?  Are you sure you didn't just learn what they wanted you to learn?



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Anon wrote:  I screwed up my families life. Me and my subconscious decisions.


Wait now - let me get this straight - It's SUBCONSCIOUS when your past actions are hurting  other people and you have begun to follow the seed teachings? Are you saying that none of the choices you made pre-seed were conscious choices? I find that really hard to believe.  They may have been really bad choices - not well thought out choices, but by no means could your choice to smack your mom with an iron or participate in a strong-armed robbery have been subconscious choices. Those, my friend, were  deliberate, conscious acts.  


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ANON Wrote:  I learned I hated myself. I didn't even know what real feelings were.

That's a pretty telling statement there.  Look it over and reflect on it.


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I am remaining anon because I can't stand drama, and I just don't choose to hear the rebuttles.


Enough said.  I won't waste anymore of my time -or yours.  I am glad, though, that the program worked for you and made a difference in your life.  It's great that someone took an interest in you, helped you learn to care about yourself and to care for those around you. What you got was more personal attention than most other people ever got, which in your case, may have been a good call on Ms. Connors' part. It's just too bad it could not have been that way for other kids.

My opinion of the program might be much different (and more like yours) if my experience was as personal and caring as you remember yours to be. We may disagree about the value of the seed, but then, well,you know what they say about opinions ...everybody has one.   :wink:

[Antigen]

Good Lord, anon! Where have you been hiding yourself? You sound exactly like you just graduated yesterday. How does somebody maintain that level of total indoctrination over these many years? Is there like a secret Seed that's been going on and on for over thirty years now somewhere in the Tampa Bay area?

The public schools are...designed around the assumption that all of the participants are irresponsible and incompetent...The result is the creation of an organization which is incapable of change. Every member of the organization is concerned with keeping his superior happy.
--Christopher Jencks, Harvard

_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82

[GregFL]

Welcome anon!  Please choose a user name and stop being afraid of "drama and rebuttal".  Those two things may lead you to a better understanding of just what exactly you were involved in.

Again, a cult isn't always a negative experience for every attendee.  Just because it wasn't negative for you in no way furthers any argument that it wasn't a cult.


Welcome again.

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

Although "Why we sing jingle bells" got a little old with me, most of my best memories of Christmas were at the Seed. I remember my first white christmas in Cleveland which truly was magical.  I also had lots of nice palm tree christmas's as well.  I hated christmas as a kid.  I love everyone of them now.  I'm getting ready to go to one of my fireman brothers homes for a extended family christmas. Lots and lots of little ones.  I may even be more excited than some of my great neices and nephews.

All differences aside I wish all of you a magical holiday. ::dove::  [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-12-22 05:15 ]

[Ft. Lauderdale]

I need to say this also.

I hated sports as an 18 yr old.  I was never good at any, no one took the time to show me and get me past any bad habits or difficulties.  I played on both teams. (probably sometimes for beig in the dog house or whatever)

I hit my first home run at age 25.  I learned how to play football quite well.  I really learned to love it( yes maybe wheather I liked it or not) I still really love it.  I love volly ball.  I'm a pretty damn good ping pong player(unfortunatly probably along with many mental hospital patients)
and I love tennis.  (Actually my dad and grandfather were both really good tennis & ping pong players but before the seed I had never played with them :grin: ) Neither one were ever any mental institutions.   lol  :grin: