The Common Denominator

[GregFL]

Yes Walter

and then there were those of us that never ever wanted "it" at all, we just wanted to be normal kids.

However, other people who thought our brains needed a little washing (not my phrase) had a different idea on what was good for us, and unfortunately we didn't have the power to stop it.

Im afraid the "cure" was much more destructive for many than the cause.

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Greg,
I truly get what Walter is talking about.  In some ways I was only the fair haired boy for a short time.  I had to fight for alot.  I love and respect Walter. I'm trying to get what your saying as well.  What was so bad? Thats what I don't get.
Did your own kid not try to rebel or because of your divorce (I'm divorced too) didn't that cause similar problems for your son too?  Maybe I should ask you this privatly but I swear it seems like alot with you and Antigen  has to do with how your parents handled alot of it.  I may be dead wrong but(and you know what comes after but)I keep hearing and remembering what you and Antigen have said in the past.  Antigen keeps digging deeper and deeper now for some Witch doctor crap.
I listen to her here and I listen to how she posts  diffrently on other sites and I trying to figure it all out.

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Someone recently told me that the girls "chicks" at cranbrook used to refer to you as "Whitey Corvette"   :razz:

[Anonymous]

MARSHALL
SOS web site states:
"Recovering alcoholics, addicts, adult children of alcoholics and co-dependents are especially susceptible to joining cults or sects. Often anxious, fearful, lonely, shameful, confused and depressed, we emerge from the fog of addiction vulnerable, naïve and gullible. We lack the inner resources and abilities to cope with the world around us. We are lost, seeking help, feeling abandoned and hopeless. Our sense of self-worth and self-esteem is abysmally low. We have no clear conception of our selves and a frail and uncertain sense of self-identity. Very often we are unsure of who we are or what the purpose of living is. In such a condition our powers of judgment and decision-making are impaired. Naturally, we follow the advice of those who seem to have our best interests at heart or have authority over us."

It goes on and on and on and on like this, (much like this web site), targeting the problem, but offering no alternative solutions, (much like this web site). Unless, (much like this web site), you advocate just letting everyone do whatever the hell they want to, consequences be damned. Critical analysis without equal or greater viable alternatives, (the very essence and definition of this web site), has less value than one Thai baht at a Rolls-Royce dealership.

[Anonymous]

and FT. LAUDERDALE,
You should heed Antigen's warning of the danger of denial, for there is no more expert on this subject then one who has dedicated her life, for all of us to see, to becoming a person who never leaves the nefarious realm of denial.

[Anonymous]

Just on a lark I followed up a lead I read in a law case about a program in Utah for trouble teens - a family law matter concerning divorce and who pays for the "essential" treatment reocmmended by the educational advisor.

Any way, the long and short of it was, I decided to see if I could get my kid in the program.  Except it was a fake kid.  

After an extensive and intrusive on-line "interview" process with ABSOLUTELY no medical diagnoses being provided and no physician or psyciatric referrals to the program, and based on what I reported as my "child's" desire to associate with persons of a lower socio-economic class of the same sex, (which I specifically wrote to imply I was concerned about that my kid was hanging out with people of color and not interested in the opposite sex - READ: poor and black and gay) they absolutely told me in in no uncertain terms that they could help my child achieve the goals I established for the child.  NOTE it was the goals I established for my child they assured me could be met: Not to be friends with people of color, people who were poor and to not be gay.  

Followed in the next sentence: when did I want to enroll the child ?  

If that's not enough to make you stop and think about the INTENT of these programs, I don't know what is.  Who cares if I faked them out?  The point is, they took it and assured me that at the end of the program, my kid would be white, would appreicate her financial/economic position, and woudl not be gay.  

Yeah, I set them up. No doubt about it - that was MY intention - to see if I could write something so outrageous that they would HAVE to question the authenticity of the request for help.  

But they didn't.  I had hoped I would get no reply - something akin to being busted for wasting their time since the set-up was, in my view, pretty darn obvious.  But guess what ??They promised "help" for money.

Yeah, it was not truthful - absolutley nothing on the application was truthful except the email address and the cell phone number - yet they still wanted my non-existent kid and my non-existent money. Especially the money since I had no insurance which would hamper the continued treatment.   And ya'll should see the frigging release I had to download and sign.  

I don't really care whether the programming is the same as the seed, a spin-off, a wilderness camp or anything else. What is really NOT shocking is the fact that these things are all marketed the same way.  MARKETED being the key word here.  They take your kid, ask what you want, you pay the money, and they send you back a very compliant product.  

Woe be to the child who ain't broke.  Even more woe to the REAL addicts who are taken for a very expensive ride.  Note here, if I am not mistaken, a lot of the addicted seedlings went on to other self-service programs like AA, NA because theseed did not work. (But that's not the point of this post.)

The public goes dozing along, never noticing that the government pays private businesses to round up and re-educate the public. Never noticing that the SBA funds the Drug Free Work Place program through mandatory participation*.  Never noticing that the government approved labs for DFWP pee testing are those owned by the likes of Mr. Dupont and others associated with the Partnership for a Drug-free amerika.  I dare one you to try an open an SBA approved DFWP lab.  

*A condition of an SBA (Small Business Administration) loan is that the business be a bonafide drug free work place.

Look back to the 2005-2006 health law thread which takes funding AWAY from Public Hospitals were Emergency Room docs might refuse to submit patients for drug screening and/or treatment should the person fall into a category of patient who meets the list criteria.

You guys, regardless of your personal experience at the seed, you got to see some very invasive government activity on the federal, state and local levels - and private business are being used to futher this agenda.  

Call me a conspiracy nut if you like (I've been called worse), but the damage to OUR personal freedom and privacy now is well beyond what happened to each of us 20 to 40 years ago.  

So, what are we who think this is a bad thing supposed to do?  Speak out, be unpopular, picket those business that need some light shed on their practices, make them redirect their time and financial resources AWAY from getting  and bringing more people into their programs. Write to your state and federal representatives - challenge them to STEP away from the PDFA money and listen to what you, the voter and citizen has to say. Take a risk and allow people to tell you they think you're an asshole, vindicitive, hateful, venomnous or whatever else they need to say.  Exercise your right to speak out because God knows, those who control the money and the drug rehab business sure as hell have no fear about speaking out and drowning out any opposition.

What they sling are only words and as I have learned here, words don't hurt and have no effect when truth is spoken.

ME? I'm starting my work at the local girl's jail. If I can get even one kid to understand that she has the power to control decisions in her life - regardless of the present circumstances, that's one less kid the programs will get - one less kid that will fall dumb under program control.  Look, they market one person at a time, so it is possible to make this change and challenge this midset, one person at a time.

I expect I'll be very unpopular here and other places, but really, I don't care about that.  
And yeah, I thought this subject was just too important not to add my two cents into the mix.


 Stripe-

[tommyfromhyde1]

Stripe,
Did you know that in the late '80s the CBS
Evening News did just what you did to a CompCare
rehab? And this was in the middle of the crack
panic.

What is this new loyalty? It is, above all, conformity. It is the uncritical and unquestioning acceptance of America as it is. It rejects inquiry into the race question or socialized medicine or public housing, regards as heinous any challenge to what is called the system of private enterprise, identifying that system with Americanism. It abandons evolution, repudiates the once popular concept of progress, and regards America as a finished product, perfect and complete. The concept of loyalty as conformity is a false one. It is narrow and restrictive, denies freedom of thought and conscience... What do men know of loyalty who make a mockery of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?
http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/commager.html' target='_new'>Henry Steele Commager, 1947

[Stripe]

No I did not.  But I'm sure what I did was not  an original idea.  

I just thought I'd share the experience with the board.  I was just testing the waters for my own education. The point is, no matter how whacky the propostion was I put out there to them - get my little white kid who might be gay away from poor black people who might be taking her money and using drugs - THEY OFFERED HELP TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEM OF MY rebellious child.  

Not once was what the kid (16 yrs. old) wanted even considered. Not once was I questioned about the propriety of the racism contained in my solicitation.  Nothing I suplied was questioned - other than when do I want the service and how will I be paying.   Tells you lots about the industry, doesn't it?

[marshall]

To Anon:
Geez, I was trying to be quiet for awhile but your point needs to be addressed.
You stated: "but offering no alternative solutions"

I just assumed anyone seriously reading this link would be able to scroll to the bottom of page where it explicitly states that SOS is itself an alternative form of treatment:

"Today there are SOS groups meeting in every state, as well as in other countries. SOS has gained recognition from rehabilitation professionals and the nation's court systems. In November of 1987, the California courts recognized SOS as an alternative to AA in sentencing offenders to mandatory participation in a rehabilitation program. Also, the Veterans Administration has adopted a policy which prohibits mandatory participation in programs of a religious nature." ---quote from the link

There are numerous links given on that page that explain the nature of SOS. I have no personal knowledge or experience with that or any group (other than the Seed) so don't take my giving that link (or any link for that matter) as meaning I endorse all material on the link. But it definitely does offer an alternative...whether their alternative is greater or viable I have no way of knowing. The mere fact that they do not endorse coercive thought-control techniques as a means to achieve sobriety puts them miles ahead of the seed and similar programs imo.

Those suffering from certain depressive or severe personality disorders could often be 'cured' via lobotomy. In that case, there is real cause for debate as to whether the cure is far worse than the disease. In some narrow sense they seem to 'work' for many people...just like amputating a gangrenous leg often 'works' to save the person's life. But at what cost? I'm often amused when I see ads for some of the drugs hawked by big pharma on tv. One cures psoriasis...but as a side effect sometimes gives you cancer!

Then you ask: "Unless, (much like this web site), you advocate just letting everyone do whatever the hell they want to, consequences be damned."

It depends upon what you mean by 'everyone' and 'consequences'. To address this question to any degree takes us past the purpose of this forum into political discussion. As I see it, the far left and far right share one similar belief...the belief that 'we know what is best for you'. Both engage in social engineering and share this elitist pov. Whether it is the Left's efforts to criminalize cigarettes or the Rights efforts to criminalize adult films and photos..both spring from the same conceit. The Seed epitomized this conceit imo. It isn't surprising to me that it has led logically to such groups as straight and various bootcamps for kids. So, unless 'everyone' (& by that I mean adults) behaves in such a way as to cause others serious harm (stealing, murder, rape,  forced brainwashing, etc) they indeed should be 'allowed'  freedom to 'do whatever the hell they want. BTW, the idea of being 'allowed' freedom is in direct contradiction to the very principles this nation was founded upon. We are 'endowed' with freedoms and rights. These do not spring from any earthly, governmental 'authority' as was the view in monarchist England of the time. The government does not 'allow' us freedom...or at least that was the way the founding fathers saw it.

As to the specific issue of drug use. I am a radical. I believe that any sane adult should be 'allowed' to do as they please with their own body and mind. I do not believe the state or federal government owns our body-mind. I am for the complete legalization of all drugs. Not because I believe they are good or healthy, but because I view the imprisonment of users and other consequences of drug prohibition as far worse than the problem it seeks to fix...much as cancer is worse than psoriasis. I am also against the criminalization of cigarette smoking...though I haven't smoked since right after graduating my program and view smoking as a terrible habit. I share this view with many other radicals...including such druggies as George Shultz (former Reagan secretary of state), conservative pundit William F. Buckley, former White House general counsel Lloyd Cutler, Milton Friedman, Willie Brown, Richard Burt, Bob Strauss, Jocelyn Elders, Ahmet Ertegun, Harvey Cox, Charles Murray, Bishop Paul Moore Jr., former FDA Commissioner and Stanford President Donald Kennedy, Ruth Messinger, & Walter Cronkite amongst others.

http://fornits.com/eminent.htm

As to offering viable alternatives... For the great majority of us (excluding addicts and genuine alcoholics) the better alternative would probably have been to do absolutely nothing. The vast majority of teen drug users simply grow up and either stop using completely or become rare or special occasional users. This happens to those who are put into 12 step programs and to those that are not. The parents that founded Straight did so because they were 'devasted' when they discovered their teenage son was using marijuana. Statistics suggest  that he would likely have eventually quit on his own. (he quit with the help of a standard therapist...not via his parents own program) Instead, they gave us all the wonders of Straight.
 
It is frustrating and frightening for any parent when a child begins to rebel and test limits. Desparate to maintain 'control' over their offspring they consider any alternative that offers to give them their 'child' back.  Teenagers have been rebeling and testing limits for at least all of recorded history. Adolescence is a risky time in our development. We might drive too fast, have unprotected sex, take up bungee jumping, shoplift and use drugs and alcohol. Drugs being especially attractive due to their illegality. Most of us survive this period. Some do not. If parents will just be strong, loving, firm and patient...as opposed to shipping their teen to bootcamp...most will be pleasantly surprised to find that their 'child' comes back on their own. As a mature adult rather than a programmed cookie-cutter person. The best cure for adolescence and all of it's problems...is time...growing to adulthood.

[marshall]

Here's a  list of some alternative treatment programs that are not 12 step:

St. Jude Retreat House
PO Box 657, Hagaman, NY 12086

Success Rehabilitation, Inc.
5666 Clymer Road
Quakertown, PA 18951

Treatment Research Center at University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA 19104

Americas Addiction Treatment, Inc.
PO Box 471665
Charlotte, NC 28247
(704) 281-2106

Oasis Mountain ("OM") Wellness Center
Lake Wylie, SC 29701

Laureate Psychiatric Clinic and Hospital
 6655 S. Yale Ave.
Tulsa, OK 74136
918-491-5675

Desert Canyon Treatment Center
Sedona, AZ 80339

Assisted Recovery
Phoenix, AZ 85014

Marc Kern Ph.D.
"The Habit Doc"
1125 South Beverly Drive
Suite 401
Los Angeles, CA 90035-1148
1-888-22-HABIT

Pyrysys
8950 Villa La Jolla Drive, Suite B214
La Jolla, CA 92037-1708

Brookside Institute
Irvine, CA 92612

Schick Shadel Hospital
12101 Ambaum Blvd. S.W.
Seattle, Washington 98146
1-800-CRAVING
(1-800-272-8464)

Bayside Marin
684 Point San Pedro Road
San Rafael, CA 94901
1-800-757-7131

Weyland Consultation Services
Walnut Creek, CA 94596

Are those enough alternative solutions?

[Antigen]

Stripe,  :rofl: no, you're not the first one to try that. Telling, isn't it? Were you really surprised? I wonder if we should put together a sort of anthology of such pranks, something like the Toth Letters? Might be fun and profitable.

Marshall, I got hung on the same point about offering alternatives. I was debating whether to try and address that or to go w/ the flow of conversation. Since you did, let me add my thoughts. I can sum it up in one simple, snide remark; I'm not yo' mama! It's not my place or my responsibility to tell ya'll what you should do, should have done or to improve upon or try to perfect the Synanon method.

However, I have very often engaged in discussion in these forums about just exactly that. Whenever I go there, I try to always make it clear that I'm offering my opinion or speculation. I suppose I fail in that sometimes. But then, I think maybe ppl who remain involved in Program culture (to whatever degree) are simply deaf to the concept of personal responsibility. No matter. I'd rather discuss the alternatives w/ people who are willing and able to get past that and explore some new concepts that forever argue w/ those who are not.

I think the best alternative to the Program philosopy on raising kids is to reference the old school methods. W/ my kids, I try to do a lot of what my parents did right and to leave out what they did wrong and to pick up ideas from others.

Just love your kids, damn it! It may seem like a snide remark to you, but it's not. Have faith in them, especially when they screw up. Those are the times when they need your love and support the most. Once they get to the point of maturity where they reject your absolute authority and are compelled to test your beliefs and standards, it's worse than a waste of time to try and strong arm them back into being compliant, dependent little carbon coppies of what you wish you could live up to. If you take the bait and engage in all out warfare with them when they're feeling cockey, they won't trust you enough to come to you for advice and support when they want and need it. So don't do that. That's my advice.

Finally, anon, wtf do you mean I'm in denial? Denial of what? Who are you and what makes you think you know anything true about me, aside from what I've said myself? Are you kin to me? Cause I haven't talked to, far less spent time w/, any of my own family of origin in a number of years. I know they've got plenty to say about me, but they never have bothered to get to know me in real life. It's all just gossip.

It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples

--Charles Dickens

[Anonymous]

"Finally, anon, wtf do you mean I'm in denial? Denial of what? Who are you and what makes you think you know anything true about me, aside from what I've said myself? Are you kin to me? Cause I haven't talked to, far less spent time w/, any of my own family of origin in a number of years. I know they've got plenty to say about me, but they never have bothered to get to know me in real life. It's all just gossip. " said, Antigen...

WTF are you Queen Fornits?  Are you the all knowing? Maybe your God? or think that you are. I think you should reread your post.  You told others that they were in denial.  Are you the only one allowed to call that shot?

You to me are the most vengeful abnoxious woman
I have ever come across.  Thats my opinion.
Sorry, try some estrogen  
 ::blushing::

[Antigen]

Darlin, that comment of mine was in direct response to your very clear and repeated insinuation that there is nothing about The Seed that bears any resemblance to other well known brainwashing tactics. And you're far too clever to have missed the point.

Why are you always sniping at me like this? You'll even go out of your way answering questions I pose to other people just to take a shot at me. What did I ever do to you?

Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561769118/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Terence McKenna

[Anonymous]

I Honestly wish I knew exactly why you annoy me so much.  I guess it's just like  
From my fathers imortal words,
"you give me the red ass"  :flame:  :grin:

[Antigen]

Truth hurts?

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist