Cross Creek:How bad was it really in 2002-2003?

[Perrigaud]

What shadey things were occurring if any?

[Perrigaud]

I personally never saw any beatings. This may even sound crazy but I miss the place at times. Of course the times I'm referring to were the last few months I was there. I have a lot of happy memories from that place. Thankfully they don't include abuse of any sort.  :grin:

[Anonymous]

That's because they programmed you to call it "discipline" and believe there was nothing wrong with it.

[Perrigaud]

Blah Blah Blah brainwash Blah. No, they didn't. I wasn't programmed. I'm a human not a robot. You people are so annoying. There probably were abuse cases. That sucks but then again nothing in life is 100% pure. So, if this so called brainwashing helped me (not forced) to keep others as well as myself safe then so be it. I was a terror. I had no regard for people, life, or anything positive. In a way they saved you from paying the taxes that would've kept me in jail for committing malicious crimes. I had already done my share of proving myself one of the top juvinile delinquents.  [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2004-12-21 08:56 ]

[ehm]

Well, you were programmed to think we're making this up, and that everything you went through was necessary.

Why don't you explain the program at Cross Creek? Help me understand your position a little better. :smile:

[Anonymous]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenb ... oot33.html

In Utah, officials are wrestling with Majestic Ranch, which takes children as young as 10, and where a program director was recently charged with child abuse, as well as with a new program at the flagship affiliate, Cross Creek, for clients over age 18. Neither program has obtained the required operating license, state officials said.

Robert Lichfield, who once said he believed only Satan stood in the way of the programs' goals, said state authorities were merely reacting to pressure from parents or reporters, adding, "If I was in their position, I would be doing the same thing."

Federal authorities are also taking a look at Wwasps. On July 10, Representative George Miller of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Education Committee, asked the Treasury Department to see whether Wwasps received unusual "tax deductions, tax credits or any special tax treatment."

Affiliates gross perhaps $70 million a year, an estimate based on their enrollment, tuition and fees. A company spokesman, James Wall, said it had always filed its federal income taxes properly. But Mr. Wall said Wwasps, which calls itself a nonprofit corporation in Utah, had never applied for nonprofit, tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service.

[Nihilanthic]

He called government records for donations by the industry to politicians rumor and heresay.

Dont waste your time.

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'> Thomas Jefferson, 1787

[Perrigaud]

No, what's the point? Not everything was necessary. I retained what I felt fit at that time. In the end it helped me. There might have been a different solution but I didn't go through that. Bottom line is that I'm successful and happy. I know that not everyone came out with the same experience be it good or bad. All I know is what I went through personally.

[Anonymous]

You may know and remember what you went through, but I doubt you can think about it critically and logically. Being a WWASP graduate, you see everything through WWASP's ideology. There are numerous examples of abusive practices used by WWASP, but I'm certain you would call it necessary or say that there's nothing wrong with it, or that the child "deserved it", which in your eyes makes it OK.

Example #1:
A child is grabbed by an adult staff member. The child's arms are twisted behind his back, and he is taken to a small room where he is made to lie on his face for days. WWASP calls this "treatment". Normal people call it abuse.

Example #2:
A child is made to stand before a group of strangers, and relate intimate experiences from her past. This information is then used to humiliate the child and break her down psychologically. WWASP calls this "emotional growth". Normal people call it abuse.

There are dozens of other examples. My point is, that while I'm sure you remember your experience just fine, you are unable to see it for what it was. You can only look at it through the eyes of a WWASP devotee. And that is why I don't believe you when you say there was no abuse: you define "abuse" using WWASP's definition. I can't believe you when you say that WWASP offers a legitimate, helpful program because I know what kind of program they offer, I know the results it brings, and I know why you speak of WWASP the way you do.

I am glad to hear you're doing well and that you're happy. I hope you'll keep on being happy with your life. I also hope you'll snap out of the WWASP/LifeSpring mind-prison you're in. In any case, good luck.

[Nihilanthic]

So, because you survived it, its okay that you were 'helped' (if you even needed it) by being broken down and abused, so its okay.

Lets apply your logic to something else....

I'll go emotionally rape and physically abuse your mom the next time she gets a cough. As long as she survives it, and the cough stops, its okay, and it 'worked' for her! She isnt coughing anymore!

Funny how your logic doesnt work anywhere else but with kids locked up in programs. And only in your mind.

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.

[Anonymous]

So typical.  Someone comes on here and says they weren't abused, they took what they needed from the program they were in, and learned a lot of important life lessons...and is now being told that it was all an illusion and that they were in fact abused.  Who's trying to brainwash who?

[Nihilanthic]

So, throw a kid in some BS program abuse and humiliate them, and when they come out, they've grown up.

And its the programs doing? Coallation is not causation buddy. You might as well put a kid in a program for having a cold. When the cold ends and they come out and anent coughing anymore, theyd claim it was their doing.

Also, anon, when the programs give no specific facts at all, wtf am I gonna go by? More general bullshit?

The inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-22 12:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So typical.  Someone comes on here and says they weren't abused, they took what they needed from the program they were in, and learned a lot of important life lessons...and is now being told that it was all an illusion and that they were in fact abused.  Who's trying to brainwash who?"

Well, reasonably, it kind of depends on what happened and what didn't, doesn't it?

I had a friend who was gang raped at 5 by a group of neighborhood boys.  They were 11 and 12--I don't know how many there were, but more than two.

She didn't think of it as rape, even though she was uncomfortable about it and thought it had been a bad thing for her life, because she hadn't said no.  Neither did her 5 year old friend who was also gang raped by the same boys.

It didn't dawn on her that it *was* rape until I said to her, "Look--imagine you're not talking about or to *you*.  Imagine you're talking to any other person you know.  Would you tell them that a five year old, any five year old, was competent to consent to sexual intercourse?  No?  So now what would you tell *you*?"

And that's when she started crying.  Heavily.

And that's when she started to get better, too.  Because she could put what happened in context, and grieve that it happened, and so could *finally* start getting over her grief.

Now, naturally, if you're having to be hypnotized to "remember" a bunch of junk, then nobody really knows whether it did happen and you repressed it, or whether it was a false memory *created* by what the hypnotist did to you.

To get back to the subject of Cross Creek---whether someone was abused or not depends on what actually happened.

Did things happen that child welfare agencies would have considered abuse if the parents did it, or not?

I have no idea.

My usual touchstone is to ask someone how long it's been since they've been in a program.

If they've been out for five or more years I figure they *probably* have a pretty good handle on what happened and are probably seeing what happened fairly clearly.

If they've been out less than five years, I generally reserve judgement unless there's enough detail to their account to convince me it's plausible.

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

Thank you Timoclea for posting that.  Until someone can take a deep look at and acknowledge what happened, can the healing begin. It's what Cross Creek therapists and the seminars create for the students in a safe environment.  As you said, it hurt for this little girl to remember and talk about what happened.  My wish is that she was able to come to terms with one of her "defining" moments and not live as a victim to something she had little or no control over.

[Perrigaud]

Again, I reitterate that I don't doubt that there were some abusive cases. I was not emotionally raped...you know what, people will always have their own opinions. I'm coming to realize that whatever I say will always bring those who are for and against it. All I know is that I don't regret one day I spent at CCM. So with this I am done defending and proving. All that matters is what I know.