Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous

[Anonymous]

On 2004-11-16 16:14:00, Sara-1984 wrote:

"My biggest problem is with the first few words of the first step of AA, or Straight, or LIFE or whatever:



"Admit we are powerless...."

Sheer Bullshit!!!

  :roll: "

I always wondered about this one too.  Admit we were powerless over something that we were supposed to ultimately gain control over?  I think the first step is a cop-out.

I look at AA as just another outlet for addiction.  Most people never conquer addictive behaviour, long after they have ceased to drink or do drugs.  AA deals with the drink.....not whatever it was that drove you to drink.  I think that whole concept is the biggest factor in the failure of all substance abuse treatment.

Not to say it doesnt help people, but I feel that those certain people end up having to fill in some pretty precarious blanks that AA leaves out.  Its a gamble.

[Carmel]

Sorry, that was me....

The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher

[shady grove]

12 step programs don't promise to "fill in all the blanks". NA promises only the freedom from active addiction. AA makes a few more. Most people I know who have attended meetings for awhile eventually learn that there are things that these programs simply cannot address. I have several issues in my life that I sure as hell would never share in a meeting.

The first step of NA says that "we admitted we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable".

That doesn't mean that we have no power over our self will, decisions, actions, etc. But being powerless over addiction is the definition of addiction. If you're not an addict, it doesn't apply to you.

12 step programs provide the "therapeutic value of one addict helping another" which cannot be found in hospitals, from doctor's, detoxes, social workers or Straight. Again, not an addict? Then it probably won't help you.

The best part of any of this is I make the diagnosis. If YOU decide you are an addict, alcoholic, junkie (whatever-all the same) than so be it. If not, then don't come, or do, whatever!

Shame, fear, coercion? What? Sounds like straight, not any meetings I've ever been to. It saddens me to think some here may have encountered this in meetings. This violates the steps and traditions. I have definately met some real assholes in AA and NA (lots), and have also met some of the most caring people I know, who to this day are most closest friends. They give me love, empathy and insight I can get nowhere else, especially from my family.

For me, the only good that came of straight was pointing me towards 12 step programs. Granted, when I got outa straight I thought I had invented the 12 steps and was gonna teach everyone how it was done, but that was another part in my straight deprogramming.

About the poll. Here's a cop out: AA and NA work for me, so I can't really have an opinion on who else it may work for. All of that is a personal decision. I will make one blanket statement: anyone in AA or NA that says their program is for everyone and/or uses fear and shame to coerce you into attending meetings has shit of their own to deal with.  :eek:

[thepatriot]

There is one thing to be said about AA, it is the individuals choice to attend, nobody locks them in and throws away the key like straight. May have steps but for the most part it is far different from what we all experianced in straight. I know Straight put a bad taste in all our mouths about rehab, but some here seem to think all rehab is bad.

[Idreamofnewtonsburning]

AA/NA/Stepcraft-of-any-kind are all dangerous cults; they are detrimental to the individuals involved and to society as a whole.  Here is a link that will articulate this a bit better than I have:


http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 88&forum=7


If you think that the Stepcult, in ANY of it's forms, has helped you, you are profoundly mistaken, and quite possibly, MORE fucked up now than you were before you fell prey to it's clutches.

[Anonymous]

"There is one thing to be said about AA, it is the individuals choice to attend, nobody locks them in and throws away the key like straight. May have steps but for the most part it is far different from what we all experianced in straight. I know Straight put a bad taste in all our mouths about rehab, but some here seem to think all rehab is bad."

You are right. Choice and freedom to get help. States are requiring DWI offenders to attend AA meetings as part of their sentences, so in that respect it is not voluntary but, at least you are free to chose between jail, hefty fines and AA. I would choose AA in that case. Of course, not drinking and driving works wonders on that problem too...  :lol:

[Anonymous]

How right you are.  Also, prisoners, mainly non-violoent drug offenders, are denied gain time and parole for not attending Stepcult indoctrination classes.  Imagine that --- the best of both worlds, being in jail AND required to attend Stepcraft seminars.  And think, some of the inmates may have violated their probation by refusing to attend Groupthink Stepcult religious services.  This cult is WAY too powerful; the spinoffs they have developed for any conceivable facet of human behavior indicates that they are in expansionist mode.  They are more of a threat to the American way of life than radical Islam.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-11-18 08:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

  Imagine that --- the best of both worlds, being in jail AND required to attend Stepcraft seminars.

It was called Straight, Inc.

[shady grove]

Who's "they"? I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next, but there really isin't an individual or group that is benefitting/profitting from all this groupthink shame-based brainwashing.

There is no man behind the curtain folks.
(hey, another wizard of oz reference-I swear I didn't plan that)

I really think it's a shame that straight left such a bad taste in so many peoples' mouths about 12 step groups-they really have nothing in common with each other. Straight tried to ride on there coat tails, and b/c of the fact that there are no leaders in AA, no one could tell them not to. AA simply has no opinion.

[Sophie]

When I was in 7th grade I had a friend named Tonya.  We were alike in very many ways.  One major difference between us was that I loved peanut butter and she couldn't stand it.  She would rather have oven cleaner rubbed in her eyes than eat peanut butter.  I could not understand this.  Something was terribly wrong with either her or me.  

Tonya's mom was a science teacher. I told her about this delimma I was having over the peanut butter thing.  The next day she brought home these little strips of what looked like regular old parchment.  She told tonya to put one in her mouth.  She just looked blankly and blinked like, ok mom what?  I put the piece of paper in my mouth and spit it right back out. It was HORRIBLE, the most disgusting bitter nasty thing I had ever tasted.

People are different, diversity is our strength.
AA works for those who want it to work and not for those who don't.  There is no reason to slam either side and call them names or label them evil. If you are bitter about 12 step groups, don't go to them. They help a lot of people.

I agree that court ordering people to meetings is bullshit. I also agree that calling a choice;a choice between going to jail and going to meetings is bullshit also.  But what other solutions do we have right now?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-11-18 14:32:00, Sophie wrote:

"When I was in 7th grade I had a friend named Tonya.  We were alike in very many ways.  One major difference between us was that I loved peanut butter and she couldn't stand it.  She would rather have oven cleaner rubbed in her eyes than eat peanut butter.  I could not understand this.  Something was terribly wrong with either her or me.  



Tonya's mom was a science teacher. I told her about this delimma I was having over the peanut butter thing.  The next day she brought home these little strips of what looked like regular old parchment.  She told tonya to put one in her mouth.  She just looked blankly and blinked like, ok mom what?  I put the piece of paper in my mouth and spit it right back out. It was HORRIBLE, the most disgusting bitter nasty thing I had ever tasted.



People are different, diversity is our strength.

AA works for those who want it to work and not for those who don't.  There is no reason to slam either side and call them names or label them evil. If you are bitter about 12 step groups, don't go to them. They help a lot of people.



I agree that court ordering people to meetings is bullshit. I also agree that calling a choice;a choice between going to jail and going to meetings is bullshit also.  But what other solutions do we have right now?  



 "

Well Put!   :tup:

[Anonymous]

The solution to end DWI's is simple.
Stop driving. :cool:

[beth1222]

I agree.  I have not attended a meeting in years but I don't blame AA for the fact that people get court ordered..."thanks" is owed to our wonderful government for that.  I even noticed that when I did attend meetings most of the regulars in there did not agree with it either.  They also believed that it was a waste of time unless everyone went willingly....alot different from Straight.

[PerfectStraightling]

The part I don't like about AA is the part where you are called selfish for having any "negative" emotion. This was my experience anyways, and I hated it. Some so-called negative emotions are healthy and signal boundaries that have been crossed and needs that haven't been met. How can we be happy if we don't feel entitled to take care of ourselves in this way?? Things I used to hear in AA like, the root of all misery is selfishness, and such simply are not true, and I see as being harmful to people, especially people who are struggling already. However, sometimes I doubt myself and wonder if maybe I'm wrong, and I am just jaded from my experience in straight...I get confused by it all. But one thing I do know is I hated AA and the experiences I had there.[ This Message was edited by: jane on 2004-11-18 21:01 ]

[Anonymous]

Regarding the question about how AA gets perpetuated so much, the answer I think is twofold (and is only slightly conspiratorial):

1-anonymity

2-the 12th step.

Anonymity keeps people from engaging in research on its effectiveness, which is really the standard that the field of psychology uses to validate different approaches. Without research, AA is at best, well...based on faith, and also anecdote which technically speaking proves nothing.

The 12th step is huge in this regard as people believe that without "passing along the message" they will end up in "jails, institutions, or death." Sound familiar anyone?? The conspiracy comes from within each individual, and exists to the extent that they buy into this way of thinking. It is a like an illness that is contagious to people with a weakened sense of self.