Author Topic: The Final Days  (Read 14280 times)

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Offline wtaylorg

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The Final Days
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2005, 12:32:00 PM »
I too have become enlightened and educated by some of the posts that I have been reading by those who were there up to the "bitter end". It's funny because me and my Mom had a conversation about the Seed a yr or so ago. At the end of the conversation about the Seed, she said well it's good to know that Art Barker and the Seed are long gone. But, as I have learned, Art is still very much alive, surprisingly. I remember when he had heart issues as early as '85.

Just reading some of these posts about all the bulls#&* that some of these members saw, went through, makes me so glad that I was lucky enough to have clarity back in '85. The Seed I remember was very much a "country club" where certain members had priveleges above others.

The best job I ever had while living down ('82-'85) there was hanging Scott B's Sound Mortgage flyers on doors of houses. Me and another seedling would walk maybe 15 miles a day putting these door flyers out. All for $250.00 a week. But, seriously, that was as much money a week as they ever let me earn.

I remember watching others buy cars, get raises, advance in life. All I could do was come in to the Seed< tend the yard, (mother in law tongues?), watch the gate and be what I perceived then and now as 3rd tier, not even 2nd tier.

Oh the fond memories.
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Offline Anonymous

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The Final Days
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2005, 01:06:00 PM »
Thank you for such an insightful post. I still wish we could know more about what exactly went down. I to put my life on hold in the 80's. I sold credit card insuance w/ a bunch of other graduates over the telephone, then collected unemployment when they shut down.
  I still have so many ???
Which side did people choose at the end Art or Lybbi?
How many were left at the end??
Did anyone have kids??
Did everyone pair off into couples or were some still not 'allowed' to date???
I don't know - I take long breaks from posting because I don't want to let myself get to caught up in the past---trying to protect myself, in a way. But then I think, that knowing the truth is freeing.     :smile:
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Offline Anonymous

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The Final Days
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2005, 07:56:00 PM »
I can't agree anymore with your post. I remember becoming aware on how one-dimensional my thinking had become. We were the ones bagging people and shutting doors to a world that had both good and bad to offer. I can remember being very frustrated once I graduated in the inability to make decisions for myself and actually believing that someone else could make better decisions than myself about my life.
 I questioned all my thoughts and decisions never developing myself in formulating any type of original thought or opinion.  I remember feeling so trapped in this life but the fear that I needed the Seed for my own happiness and well-being kept me from walking away.

The Seed all ways was big on the ?power of the group? and the love we all supposedly had for each other. We were suppose to be in a tight bond with one another. Nothing was to be left unresolved amongst us.
 
 I must admit I believed this and tried to live this. (It appealed to my sense of idealism). Does anyone else remember the raps on romance and idealism? How about the raps on Espirit de Corps? What happened? How cruel things ended up playing out leaving people alone and abandoned and emotionally destroyed.  

In truth and in the end, that turned out to be the best thing for most people, To be force to face the world on their own and eventually develop themselves.

I have often thought were all these things that were taught to us all a pack of lies?
 In my opinion no, the ideals were true and sound but the problem was how they were interpreted and manipulated by the people for the purpose of control and self gain.

 So here I?am and I?m ever so grateful I walked away from all of this when I did and still remember my bonds with the people as a good thing. I do not look at the Seed as a terrible chapter in my life but I did see what a debilitating crutch the Seed had become for me and if I really wanted to grow I needed to walk away.  

To me this is all too sad and I choose to remember the good.
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Offline Thom

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The Final Days
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2005, 01:38:00 AM »
Thanks for all the info on the final days of The Seed. I was a '70's member, and kind of drifted away after I decided beer was not a drug..for me...I was 'different' Well, I got real different after that.

My abuse of alcohol later was a major contributor to 2 failed marriages, the second of which cost me much access to my kids,(now 21 and 18) and lots of child support  which finally ended last month (free at last, free at last!):) Anyway, I remember Art saying to the group that if The Seed managed to keep just one kid from messing up her/his life with drugs, it was all worth it.

I realize some of you posting here are not 'addict' types, but I am. When I came up for air again about 18 years later, pretty messed up, thinking suicide and all that, I found myself in a mainstream 12 step program, and there were those darned steps on the wall again! The ones I used to amuse myself with as a kid. 'Sought through beer and medication to remove a conscious contact with God, as we understood Him' was one example. Well, the joke was on me. I had worked my version of that step to the best of my ability. The point I'm making here is that the 'program' dogma/brainwashing or whatever I had been exposed to as a kid came in real handy when I did develop a problem. I was engaged in behaviors which I knew were killing me, and I needed help getting stopped. I'm grateful the recovery system was still around when that time came for me.

I do not deny the negative impact The Seed had on some of you, but along with that, I must say that my experience was positive. Although it took a while for the 'seeds' to sprout, (I needed to dump a bunch of fertilizer on them) that dog gone dogma came back to the front of my mind when I needed it.

Based on the end time Seed stories I've read here, it is clear to me now that Art and staff are human beings. As such, they are subject to making mistakes, wrestling with ego balance, etc. as much as I am. (Sure glad I didn't choose them as my Higher Power!)

I remember in raps hearing people parrot 'your higher power can be a light bulb or a door knob' over the years that routine was the source of  many a chuckle with my Seed siblings, there were 4 of us, until the fog started lifting and I realized I need a door knob to open doors, and a light to see where I'm going in life.

I am above all grateful to God for placing me in an environment where I could come to understand that even I can live a life with big chunks of serenity and peace in it. I have no regrets.

Take care :wave: , Thom  :tup:
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Offline Anonymous

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The Final Days
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2005, 03:57:00 AM »
Stupid Humans will always err like artificial inteligence only gamling with their own lives. :smokin: And it sux.
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Offline Antigen

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The Final Days
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2005, 02:10:00 PM »
Honestly, Thom, you were not messed up prior to The Seed. A pain in the ass sometimes? Sure! All smart kids are. But not at all headed for death, insanity or jail (well, maybe jail, but only juvee and probably behind a practical joke that would have turned impractical)

I really think the Program did a number on you. I don't think Joni left because of your drinking. I think the marriage failed because you both entered into it while still under heavy program influence. The two of you had nothing in common except for singing and laughter. In the real world, she might have been a good old friend, but not a life partner. She was after something entirely different.

I hate to even go here because I think you're probably going to get all indignant. But it pains me to see you flog yourself like this. The things you should be grateful for you hide in shame or throw on the bonfire. The things you should be indignant about you hold up as holy manna from heaven. It's sad to see. I miss who you used to be. I wish you'd just get it through your thick head that there never was anything wrong with you. You didn't need to be fixed or brainwashed or reprogramed or anything. You just needed to grow up, just like anybody. You know we'd be running that small town these days if we hadn't been scattered as we were.

When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Thom

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The Final Days
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2005, 03:16:00 PM »
Thanks Dr. Warbis...how much do I owe you for this session?

Probably right about Joni, but there were other issues. Neither she nor #2 cared much for sex after marriage...well, not with me, anyway. They say the third time is a charm. My current spousal unit loves loving me. I don't have to flog myself any longer!

I agree with you that my major pre-seed need was maturity. I never bought into that stuff about being 'a piece of shit' when I was a 'druggie' Here?s the catch: neither of our parents was equipped to lead me there. Some concepts I became Aware of (there's that scary word) during my seedation helped to point me toward that maturity.

You'll have to break down that grateful...shame...bonfire...indignant...manna thingy for me. You lost me in that drama.

As for running that small town together, if you mean Pompano, I would likely have left there regardless. It's too damn hot down there! Like Dad said, that climate was designed for alligators and mosquitoes...not people. Do you remember the story of Dr. Mudd? He was the guy who helped John Wilkes Booth with his broken leg after he iced Abe. The good Dr. was sentenced to life in FL for his treason. Dry Tortugas, I think. I didn't even commit a crime, but served 20 years in that hell hole (FL).    

Well, gotta go, my oldcomer just told me I can't talk to you.

See ya, your prozac-zombie Brother, Thom

"Hypocrites was the reason for the treason"
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Offline GregFL

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The Final Days
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2005, 05:48:00 PM »
Nice to hear from you again Tom.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2005, 07:21:00 PM »
By the way Thom, how long have you been sober and working your steps THIS TIME around?

Go ahead, complete this sentence for us curious..

Hello, my name is Thom and I have been sober for ________.


For a product you are so grateful for, The steps and stepcraft, it sure seems to fail you over and over. Een by your own admission you went 18 years after the seed before you went to AA, and then you thank the Seed for being there?

And again, I see a picture developing of a non addicted individual, submitted into involuntary addiction treatment, emerging with a addiction problem and an identity and ego built around the times he is sober.  You must really beat the shit out of yourself when you are not.

Unreal, as I read it.


"you are only powerless if you believe you are"
gregfl
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Offline Thom

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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2005, 12:39:00 AM »
A note to those looking around the internet for recovery support ? fair warning:

You will not generally find it in these pages. If you have recently begun your journey to recovery, and it is important to you, this can be a dangerous place to peruse as many who post here have had, or perceive that they have had bad experiences with recovery.   Lots of bitterness here. This site is devoted to gathering historical data, usually of a negative nature, concerning certain drug and alcohol treatment and recovery programs and their practices. I suggest you stay close to the official recovery sites instead.

OK, Greg,
  Thank you so much for the warm welcome, as always. Here are your responses, with your questions/comments in quotation marks:

 ?By the way Thom, how long have you been sober and working your steps THIS TIME around?

Go ahead, complete this sentence for us curious...?

Would that ?us? be yourself and some of your other personalities?

Hello, my name is Thom and I have been sober for 13 + years
 
(Like you give a crap, but I?ll play along for fun)


?For a product you are so grateful for, the steps and stepcraft, it sure seems to fail you over and over. Een by your own admission you went 18 years after the seed before you went to AA, and then you thank the Seed for being there??

Not sure where you get the ?over and over? from. I was ?straight? for a few years in the ?70?s, ?crooked? for about 18 years, am ?sober? for about 13 years now and very contented.
I don?t know what Een means?is that German?  I believe here you are twisting the part where I wrote: ?I'm grateful the recovery system was still around when that time came for me.? Not ?thank the Seed for being there? as you misquoted. I was referring to the program (steps) of recovery practiced by various 12 step fellowships.
More simply put, ?I can?t, He can, I think I?ll let him?

?And again, I see a picture developing of a non addicted individual, submitted into involuntary addiction treatment, emerging with a addiction problem and an identity and ego built around the times he is sober. You must really beat the shit out of yourself when you are not.?

Time to change your picture developing chemicals. I entered the Seed program, and later, AA?. VOLUNTARILY? I have stated, and you have acknowledged this in the past.

"Unreal, as I read it."

It seems to become unreal as you read it. Reading comprehension difficulties would be my guess, but I am not trained in this area, and am not qualified to diagnose.


"You are only powerless if you believe you are"
 
(Try that theory next time you feel diarrhea coming on?mind over fecal matter! :eek:)

Now, here is my quote for the day:

?If God had intended for me to continually kick myself in the ass, it seems reasonable He would have installed at least one of my feet backwards so that my efforts would have more effect?

And an oldie but goodie from ?the raps?: ?Talk about yourself?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2005, 08:51:00 AM »
Sorry, but this isn't group. We can talk about whatever we want to.

You sure about that 13 year sober thing?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2005, 08:52:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-02-06 21:39:00, Thom wrote:

"A note to those looking around the internet for recovery support ? fair warning:



You will not generally find it in these pages.


Absolutely. We will not nurture you thru your "powerlessness" here.  In fact, many people wil challenge that notion. No one here is scared of the monsters standing around group  waiting to pounce at your every word.

If you are looking for a feel goody "luv rap", please look further.
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2005, 10:04:00 AM »
Greg  - you're such a hard ass. :grin:
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Offline 90's Guy

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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2005, 11:09:00 AM »
After reading many of the posts in this forum, it is clear to me that the spectrum of our experiences was greatly colored by how long we stayed at The Seed. I lived my life at The Seed from the ages of 17 to 38. During those years, I only lived away from The Seed one time, in my mid-twenties, for about 3 months. I also attended graduate school while at The Seed and pretty much am very satisfied with my career. In my personal life, I feel I have only started to really deal with issues a few years ago and have covered quite a bit since then, falling on my face over decisions I would not have made as part of the group since a lot was forbidden, but I am happy that through my growing pains, I feel more alive than ever before.

During my "endless" seasons at the Seed, I became very close to my friends. Despite any negative political undercurrents, I did feel that I loved people there, and to this day I treasure some very good memories. I also have at least a few very good friends, but only one or two that I trust totally (from the group). By the way, I also had a good relationship with my family as a side to my Seed experiences. As a matter of fact, the Seed always tried to remain on good terms with some families, but in the end the key members' terrible mistake of not filling those in the outer circle of the internal problems that were affecting the group damaged my family's perspective of the group and then they began to mistrust me since I had very little words to explain to them what exactly happened, after all Art nor Lybbi nor any of the key members filled me on what was coming down until it actually happened. At that point, the main reason why they wanted to fill me in was simply to win points and secure "loyalty." Unlike some key ex-members, however, I am happy to forgive people for their humanness since I am so very human myself. It has taken me a few years to get over the implications of the fianbl break-up, but more than ever I feel healed when I can tell my story with more and more clarity, not just through the eyes of others.  

 
As I mentioned on another post, I never witnessed any form of physical abuse at The Seed. I did witness a strong presence from staff to convince members of political, social, and even personal issues. Abortion, for instance, was very much supported and pro-life opinions were highly criticised by staff. Supporting the Republicans was frowned upon and embracing the Democrats was praised. I agrred with some of the issues and did not agrree with others. I remember that two years before The Seed closed a few of the key members started really getting into reading "new age" literature. A favorite for a few people was the book Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. I'm not exactly sure where the diretive came from, but the members really pushinng the book, were told not to read it or talk about it becuase at The Seed there was no place for this kind of "thinking." I laughed my way to the bank with that and read all three volumes as they scared each other away from the book. The last thing I was going to do after, after surviving graduate school, was allow someone to now tell me what I could read . . .much of that had gotten funny since staff's ignorance or fear of losing control was becoming so obvious.

Despite all this, I trusted my closest friends at The Seed with my life, and I honestly beleived that they would never hurt me. My concept of relationships, both intimate and social, came from the years of interacting with other members, and I can now see positive as well as negative affects on my personal life from those long-term relationships.

I often wondered if for some who went through the program, stuck around for a few months, yet decided to return home, the ultimate impact was better. Through the years, I watched some graduates who basically just "went through the program." I saw a few come around years later. I remember the few that did were praised by staff in front of us, and I always felt that they were happier, even more stable, perhaps becuase they did not allow themselves to get so deeply and intimately involved in the Ft. Laud. community. For me I ahve forgiven it all and to this day I have not received an apology about the lies and secrets that were kept from us at the end, unfortuantely I beleive I will not be getting one because each side truly beleives that it is right in its way of perceiving the final "truth." None of the key members involved in the secret meetings before telling Art how they felt about that he had too much control and all the other petty B.S. ahve ever apologized to any of us that were kept in the dark until after the fact, and neither has Art or Shelly. Basically, we were each expected to choose a side and "understand" the reasons why things at The Seed had not been perfect.  


I have stated before that I hold no resentments against Art or staff becuase I do beleive that their intentions were good. They were human beings; they were/are not perfect. They made mistakes as I have made (and will continue to make) in my life. It is unfortuante that the key members created a very dead-end situation for themselves since each side decided to close the door on the other and "never forgive." This I cannot go along with. I refuse to walk my journey never forgiving for soemthing that is as small and insignificant as a "drama" as the seed's "final battle." I thiink we were all conned into living the war motifs and heroic myths for too frickin' long for now to have to suffer the slings  and arrows of the final battle (according to each his version--HA! HA! HA!).
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Offline GregFL

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The Final Days
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2005, 11:15:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-02-07 08:09:00, 90's Guy wrote:

"After reading many of the posts in this forum, it is clear to me that the spectrum of our experiences was greatly colored by how long we stayed at The Seed.


Sure...

and when..and where..and our personalities..and our ages..and how much our family's bought into it..and how rebellious we naturally are..and whether or not other problems existed.

My point is, it is a complicated reaction we all had to the seed. There is no way we can paint our individual experiences with the same color.
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