Caroline the Wolf

[Anonymous]

I don't want to seem overly important in the whole Caroline debacle, but, as far as I know, I was the first one to publicly state that Caroline was fucking students.  This got back to her, and I was placed on a full time.  I spit soon after.  Caroline and Matt were together for awhile after they left Idaho, but then Matt got arrested in WA, I believe.  His mother would call me and try to get me to talk some sense to him.  I hope that he's doing well now.  He was a good guy.

But Caroline started out as a detainee. So none of this is really her fault?

Having at one point been victimized does not exonerate a person who chooses in adulthood to become a perpetrator.

From what I recall, statistically speaking, most victims of childhood/adolescent sexual abuse do not grow up to become perpetrators.

To continue the cycle seems to entail some other inherent or learned trait.

I feel she is not responsible for her actions. I consider the torture of CEDU different from "normal" abuse. "Normal" abuse doesn't involve completely isolating a teen for many years and relentlessly, systematicly destroying thier brains through sophisticated and deliberate violations and tactics; and  "brainwashing" them to torture others.

The staff that thier volentarily, Mel Wassermen, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, they're a different story.

[Ursus]

I don't want to seem overly important in the whole Caroline debacle, but, as far as I know, I was the first one to publicly state that Caroline was fucking students.  This got back to her, and I was placed on a full time.  I spit soon after.  Caroline and Matt were together for awhile after they left Idaho, but then Matt got arrested in WA, I believe.  His mother would call me and try to get me to talk some sense to him.  I hope that he's doing well now.  He was a good guy.

But Caroline started out as a detainee. So none of this is really her fault?

Having at one point been victimized does not exonerate a person who chooses in adulthood to become a perpetrator.

From what I recall, statistically speaking, most victims of childhood/adolescent sexual abuse do not grow up to become perpetrators.

To continue the cycle seems to entail some other inherent or learned trait.

I feel she is not responsible for her actions. I consider the torture of CEDU different from "normal" abuse. "Normal" abuse doesn't involve completely isolating a teen for many years and relentlessly, systematicly destroying thier brains through sophisticated and deliberate violations and tactics; and  "brainwashing" them to torture others.

The staff that thier volentarily, Mel Wassermen, Steve Laird, Rudy Bentz, they're a different story.

Lol. NO. It sure as hell sucks, and life isn't fair, but whether or not someone was abused in program doesn't give them a license to never grow up or a free meal ticket to prey on others. It might help explain why someone is so fucked up, and you might feel great sympathy for them because of that, but it doesn't excuse them from the consequences of their actions.

To my mind, despite the continuum that exists, there is still a distinct delineation that occurs when you cross the line from being a minor, when someone else is ultimately responsible for what happens to you, to becoming an adult, when you are responsible for what happens to minors in your care.

There is also another delineation, IMO, that occurs in programs and other organizations per se, between regular staff and the inner core, the keepers of the flame. As they say, "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

All that said, in practice all is not quite so black and white. There are mitigating factors to be sure, which gray the waters of blame (such as you cite re. Caroline). Some times those can be quite extreme. For me, at least, whether or not someone cares about what they did also goes a long way.

[Anonymous]

No one has “licenses" to do anything and "consequences" are a different subject.

The line between minor and adult is a legal, not a corporeal delineation. One is not without personal volition at 17 years old, and then at 18 become a conscious being for the first time. How "responsible" someone is for their behavior depends on many factors, age is just one small component. Mel Wassermen induced mental illness in people he held prisoner, and created an over-arching, sometimes inescapable environment which trapped them, for further exploitation. People caught in that death trap have diminished responsibility for their actions, whether they commit suicide, kill their parents, shove a snake in someone's mailbox, or stay on as CEDU slaves to continue laboring for their masters.

[Anonymous]

No one has “licenses" to do anything and "consequences" are a different subject.

The line between minor and adult is a legal, not a corporeal delineation. One is not without personal volition at 17 years old, and then at 18 become a conscious being for the first time. How "responsible" someone is for their behavior depends on many factors, age is just one small component. Mel Wassermen induced mental illness in people he held prisoner, and created an over-arching, sometimes inescapable environment which trapped them, for further exploitation. People caught in that death trap have diminished responsibility for their actions, whether they commit suicide, kill their parents, shove a snake in someone's mailbox, or stay on as CEDU slaves to continue laboring for their masters.

It sounds like you are trying to rationalize something that happened to you or that YOU did? Are you looking for "diminished responsibility" for something YOU did?

[try another castle]

If you are an adult, and possess at least SOME degree of lucidity and cognitive thought, you are responsible for your actions, no matter how fucked up your history, or your brain.

Caroline's past doesn't excuse her from shit, especially since the majority of peeps who left that place did NOT become sociopaths. Rather, it offers context. She is the poster child for the worst-case scenario.

[Anonymous]

I feel she is not responsible for her actions. I consider the torture of CEDU different from "normal" abuse. "Normal" abuse doesn't involve completely isolating a teen for many years and relentlessly, systematicly destroying thier brains through sophisticated and deliberate violations and tactics; and "brainwashing" them to torture others.

Mel Wassermen induced mental illness in people he held prisoner, and created an over-arching, sometimes inescapable environment which trapped them, for further exploitation. People caught in that death trap have diminished responsibility for their actions, whether they commit suicide, kill their parents, shove a snake in someone's mailbox, or stay on as CEDU slaves to continue laboring for their masters.

'diminished responsibility' is reserved for people who have diminished brain function, not for amoral predatory cunts like Caroline.

[Anonymous]

No one has “licenses" to do anything and "consequences" are a different subject.

The line between minor and adult is a legal, not a corporeal delineation. One is not without personal volition at 17 years old, and then at 18 become a conscious being for the first time. How "responsible" someone is for their behavior depends on many factors, age is just one small component. Mel Wassermen induced mental illness in people he held prisoner, and created an over-arching, sometimes inescapable environment which trapped them, for further exploitation. People caught in that death trap have diminished responsibility for their actions, whether they commit suicide, kill their parents, shove a snake in someone's mailbox, or stay on as CEDU slaves to continue laboring for their masters.

Ok. I wasn't going to respond but now I feel I must and point out that I find personal attacks offensive, given the forum.
"Diminished responsibility" applies to people with mental illness, and to people trapped in extreme life situations who do not have equitable choices to the standard group.That applies to prisoners who end up on staff.

I reserve the same empathy for that kid from CEDU who raped and murdered someone, that other kid from straight who murdered someone. I also apply it to the kids who were abusive while in program (almost all of them.)

I never abused anyone while imprisoned (too meek)…Technically all of you  had the choice to resist, or to not take part in abuse. NONE (or few) of you took it. Do you feel you have complete responsibility for what you did? Some repsonsibilty? No responsibility? If you are wise, you see you actions existed in a spectrum of personal responsibility that will vary from you to another. And you will allot that same understanding to people besides yourself.

[Anonymous]

No one has “licenses" to do anything and "consequences" are a different subject.

The line between minor and adult is a legal, not a corporeal delineation. One is not without personal volition at 17 years old, and then at 18 become a conscious being for the first time. How "responsible" someone is for their behavior depends on many factors, age is just one small component. Mel Wassermen induced mental illness in people he held prisoner, and created an over-arching, sometimes inescapable environment which trapped them, for further exploitation. People caught in that death trap have diminished responsibility for their actions, whether they commit suicide, kill their parents, shove a snake in someone's mailbox, or stay on as CEDU slaves to continue laboring for their masters.

Ok. I wasn't going to respond but now I feel I must and point out that I find personal attacks offensive, given the forum.
"Diminished responsibility" applies to people with mental illness, and to people trapped in extreme life situations who do not have equitable choices to the standard group.That applies to prisoners who end up on staff.

I reserve the same empathy for that kid from CEDU who raped and murdered someone, that other kid from straight who murdered someone. I also apply it to the kids who were abusive while in program (almost all of them.)

I never abused anyone while imprisoned (too meek)…Technically all of you  had the choice to resist, or to not take part in abuse. NONE (or few) of you took it. Do you feel you have complete responsibility for what you did? Some repsonsibilty? No responsibility? If you are wise, you see you actions existed in a spectrum of personal responsibility that will vary from you to another. And you will allot that same understanding to people besides yourself.

I can't see where anyone personally attacked you. But it looks like you think everyone does.

"Almost all" the kids in your program were abusive? "NONE (or few)" of them chose "to resist, or to not take part in abuse?" What CEDU program did you go to?

[Anonymous]

I can't see where anyone personally attacked you. But it looks like you think everyone does.

It sounds like you are trying to rationalize something that happened to you or that YOU did? Are you looking for "diminished responsibility" for something YOU did?

Suggesting I think this woman had diminished responsibility  to rationalize my evil deeds is an ad hominem attack, purely.  :soapbox:

I was at what is thought to be a  CEDU spin off and my family member was at a CEDU other than RMA( I am being purposely vague)
Did the detainees at RMA not abuse each other, and was detainee on detainee abuse not the essence of the system?
They did, and it was in ours.  Peer on peer "crime," or as they refer to it “positive peer culture,” is how thought reform is conducted.

[Anonymous]

I can't see where anyone personally attacked you. But it looks like you think everyone does.

It sounds like you are trying to rationalize something that happened to you or that YOU did? Are you looking for "diminished responsibility" for something YOU did?

Suggesting I think this woman had diminished responsibility  to rationalize my evil deeds is an ad hominem attack, purely.  :soapbox:

oh whoa you really need to take a better look i see a question not a ad hominem attack. either answer or NOT or move on whatever. calling everything by its most EXTREME interprtation makes you look like seriouslyy in need of some help

[Anonymous]

Much depends on your perspective and the way you deal with it. Yes, I knew people who went there, good friends, who could not deal when they left and got even more screwed up. I also know a lot of very successful people. ....I doubt my opinion is THAT far removed from TAC's - but at least we can be civil on the differences.

According to you-- a sniveling, trolling moron-- everything is subjective, therefore am I not just as civil as TAC, you failure at life.  Perhaps your perspective is just a different than mine, scum-bag.

Or, perhaps reality is not as subjective as you suggest?

see now ^^^^^THIS from another thread is ex of a adhominem attack maybe you know that already

[try another castle]

I think the  point of contention in this here thread, it seems, was if students who actively participated in the rat squad should be considered just as accountable as people who were staff.

My vote is no... (just a wild guess there. ) Although I fully admit that I couldnt stand the whole student gestapo bullshit, but I DID feel pushed to participate, as not being one of those folks garnered a lot of shame and disrespect from everyone else, and I got nailed for it in raps constantly. My ego just wasnt strong enough to bear that scrutiny without at least trying to go through the motions a little bit. If yours was, more power to you. Wish I was you.

Being part of the authority machine and policing other students was part of the coercion crap. We didnt consent to be there, but the staff chose to be staff. They applied for the fucking job, and could have left at any time, as opposed to us. I dont give a flying fuck, at that point, if they used to be students, because they CHOSE to come back, and it's no fucking accident that some of the most brutal asshounds there were ex-students.

So... context should always be acknowledged, but that doesnt divorce anyone from their responsibility for being a sackwad.

[Anonymous]

No one has “licenses" to do anything and "consequences" are a different subject.

The line between minor and adult is a legal, not a corporeal delineation. One is not without personal volition at 17 years old, and then at 18 become a conscious being for the first time. How "responsible" someone is for their behavior depends on many factors, age is just one small component. Mel Wassermen induced mental illness in people he held prisoner, and created an over-arching, sometimes inescapable environment which trapped them, for further exploitation. People caught in that death trap have diminished responsibility for their actions, whether they commit suicide, kill their parents, shove a snake in someone's mailbox, or stay on as CEDU slaves to continue laboring for their masters.

It sounds like you are trying to rationalize something that happened to you or that YOU did? Are you looking for "diminished responsibility" for something YOU did?

this is starting to get interesting now.  :nods: I'm glad I revisitied.

[Anonymous]

I can't see where anyone personally attacked you. But it looks like you think everyone does.

It sounds like you are trying to rationalize something that happened to you or that YOU did? Are you looking for "diminished responsibility" for something YOU did?

Suggesting I think this woman had diminished responsibility  to rationalize my evil deeds is an ad hominem attack, purely.  :soapbox:

oh whoa you really need to take a better look i see a question not a ad hominem attack. either answer or NOT or move on whatever. calling everything by its most EXTREME interprtation makes you look like seriouslyy in need of some help

Thank you, cretin, for your insight into how my “interprtation” “makes me look” bad on an internet message board. Valuable contribution.

[try another castle]

am I the only one who is getting kind of embarrassed about the fact that a thread about caroline has stretched for 13 pages?

not knocking anyone here... ive been participating, too. I just dont think the bitch deserves this kind of attention.

and yes, I addededed to the thread by posting this.. oops.