CLIMATE OF FEAR

[Polarbear]

What in the world are you complaining about?  What exactly do you know about the medical system in this country?  Because you sound like you've got almost no idea of what you're talking about.
Doctors make people sick?  
Or is it the system?
Because most people I know resort to the medical system AFTER they're sick.  How can you fault doctors for failing to prevent illnesses WHEN PEOPLE COME TO THEM AFTER THEY'RE SICK?!  

Doctors don't worry about malpractice because of deaths due to synthetic drugs unless they're responsible for over-prescribing them OR wrongly prescribing them.  Faulty medication is not exactly their fault-even though they'll be sued for it anyway.  Blame that on the "Deep Pockets" principle.  That's why they are forced to pay for MILLIONS in insurance.  

There are errors in the medical system, true.  But for that figure you tossed out are there any numbers we can compare for SUCCESSFUL treatment?  Because out of roughly 300 million people in the USA I can only assume there are many, many, many more successful cases every year.  747s full, scores of trade centers full, and whole hospital wards full.
For the few quacks out there, (and incompetent PAs, nurses, and administrators) I am sure lawsuits offer a suitable punishment.  Losing your shirt in a lawsuit and being shamed in a profession that easily demands 4-8 years of professional schooling is a pretty good punishment to me.  

But you were talking about "SYNTHETIC" drugs being prescribed, right?  I take it there's a problem with the drugs being synthetic?  Your numbers don't say anything about the associated problems with meds.  How many patients overdosed themselves?  How many were allergic to the meds?  How many people got the wrong meds based on an incorrect diagnosis?  


You know, something else doctors fear is being sued by idiots.  Some people decide to sue doctors for things beyond their control or involvement.  Seems to me there was a lawsuit against a doctor and the hospital for a baby being born deformed.  That's beyond everyone's control.  I've known some insane doctors in my time, but they were dedicated professionals for all their other strangeness.

I dunno-but if you ever have to get an arm sown on maybe you should go to a veterinarian or maybe a seamstress since you distrust doctors so much.  It hardly seems fair to force you to get attention from a system full of people who don't know their asses from holes in the ground.  You obviously deserve better.
Enjoy-Polarbear

[Deborah]

I also see a problem with excessive litigation, but I wouldn't support an initative to end medical malpractice because it would hurt those who really need to be financially compensated for mistakes.

What do I know about the medical industry?
That most of what doctors do does not ?cure? anything.
They have 0 training in nutrition and make little connection between diet and health.
The medical industry and pharmaceutical industry work hand in hand. A system designed for crisis management, not health.
In fact their ?treatments? often create further problems that require ?treatment?.
Antibiotics are overused, often as preventatives, and result in the need for further treatment.
Birth is medicalized and too often results in surgery, which subjects mom and infant to potential problems and costs 2 to 3 times more than a normal birth.

Here?s one example that happened recently in my family.
Mom was seeing a heart specialist. Did a stress test, all was good. Well, if all was good, why did he have her checking her blood pressure everyday and have her scheduled for another stress test in 6 months. I chalked it up to milking the insurance company, based on some idea that people at her age needed close observation.

Six months later, she suddenly has a blockage in a lower chamber of her heart. He urgently recommended that she schedule an angiogram to determine the extent of blockage. And told her to expect that an angioplasty (stints) may be necessary when they got in there.

I told her we were getting a second opinion. I was very angry that he hadn?t mentioned it on the first test. We could have been working on it for the previous 6 months. I did some research and discovered that cardiovascular disease can be reversed with diet and supplements. I put together a program for her based on Dr. Castelli?s information- heads the decades-long Framington study. I met with her DO who concured with me- that the heart doctor was over reacting. He approved the plan and added one more supplement that I didn?t have on the list. Three months later, after following the regime, the DO took a blood test and said, ?I?ve only seen one perfect blood test, and yours is the second best.?

Now, I don?t know how much you know about angioplasty, but the risk of dying during the procedure is good. One of my clients said he knew two people who?d died on the table while receiving this intervention. Stints are not a permanent solution, but must be replaced every 6-7 years. They do nothing to prevent plaque from forming again. They often fail/collapse and require surgery to repair. They also cost about $50,000. The program she?s on costs a very small fraction of that. And, if she had needed chelation- like dialysis to clean the arteries- that procedure is also a fraction of the cost at about $4,000.

I?m a bit concerned what her next test might reveal, as she?s been cheating of late. And, in the end she may choose to eat what she wants and have the invasive surgery. It?s her choice, but at least she will have made an informed choice. Something that most Americans know nothing about because their doctor is not going to advise them of their options.

We can speculate on why doctors aren?t trained in prevention of disease rather than crisis management; but one thing is obviously clear- health is not profitable. The machine needs sick people to fuel it. Once read that the economy was so dependent on cancer treatment that a ?cure? for cancer would crash the economy.

Which would you prefer? Risk of death and certainty of future surgery, or to reverse your heart disease with a change of diet, supplements, and exercise?

I think Western Medicine is at its best in trauma. When it comes to health- the prevention of illness- they know nada.

Dr Andrew Weil is leading the way with 'Complementary' medicine- bringing together the best of traditional combined with alternatives.
http://www.drweil.com/u/Home/

[Polarbear]

I don't think you've indicted the medical system at all.  Instead you're showing me issues that pretty much involve personal responsibility.  
Diet?  A doctor probably doesn't need to tell you to change your diet if you have bad cholesterol or blood pressure, does he?  That should be on you, shouldn't it?  Your diet lead to the problem to start with.  Want to know what to eat?  ASK.  Ask a dietician.
As for the treatment-Yes, sometimes the cure is as bad as the disease.  But is that the doctor's fault, too?  In many cases there is no better answer.  And if there's no scientific support for some miracle cure like eating pineneedles or all meat or whatever, why would a doctor countenance it?  Prescribing faulty or unproven cures could get your hypothetical doctor sued, too.

As for Anti-biotics, yes, they are over-used.  They have been for decades thanks to lazy patients, hypochondriacs, ignorant medics, and doctors trying to practics preventative treatment.  Fact is, when someone ignores the rules on the bottle, they're creating a problem.  When some idiot hands his meds to someone else, they're creating a problem.  Demanding meds, as many do, is a problem.  We over-used them for 50 years or more, and now we get the result.  Bacteria that should have been eradicated were instead paired down to their hardiest survivors which survived to create tougher bacteria.  And they trade information on antibiotics.  2 bacterial colonies can come into contact and trade resistance.  Also, the failure of the medical system to quarantine the infected like they used to.  TB is a serious threat these days thanks to the end of quarantine.
They've even found bacteria so tough they thrive in hospital disinfectant and scrub soap.

Not all doctors are the same quality or experience level.  I can tell you that some of them are the greatest men and women in the world.  They dedicate all their free time to their jobs.  They do extensive research, stay ready to work all weekend long instead of relaxing.  They miss their families to man the emergency room, expose themselves to your bodily fluids and other filth, (now that it is illegal to test for HIV without permission that could be deadly) and sacrafice their time and energy for operations that can extend far beyond quitting time.  

You might have had a bad experience, but over all the medical system in the US is the best in the world.  It rests on a long history of innovation and research that has accomplished amazing things.  There are problems that plague the system.  Bad doctors, greedy lawyers, governmental control and intrusion, cheap slickster HMOs, and so on.  But I don't think you can blame them all for the mistakes and acts of a few.  I've known a few doctors, and most of them are highly professional people who try their hardest to help.  
Enjoy-Polarbear

[Deborah]

Personal responsibility? What about, "First Do No Harm?"
Personal responsibility for individuals, and no responsibility for doctors or the AMA. Those folks who have the authority to limit my choices, to ban or make illegal products that I might choose to use- as I'm taking personal responsibility for my health. The same folks who advise moms to give their babes formula instead of breastmilk, setting them up for a host of medical problems. I could go on, but I'm bored.

Go to a dietician? You mean the people who put together the lame menus of dead food for hospitals and schools? I don't think so. They've been trained in the same school of thinking, and where the food industry dictates what constitutes proper nutrition.

You want to blame patients for the overuse of antibiotics? That's nuts. Two generations ago people had their babies at home, took care of most illnesses at home. The current generation has no knowledge of how care for anything and live in fear- because they were conditioned so by doctors and the AMA. They look to their doctor as a healer, not a crisis interventionist.

[Polarbear]

2 generations ago?!

2 generations ago most of the equipment, medicine, vaccines, technology, training, and infrastructure that we rely on DIDN'T EXIST!

2 generations ago a great deal more people lived in the sticks than now.  

2 generations ago medical care sure was done in the home.  MOST HOSPITALS WEREN'T IN EXISTENCE THEN!!!  

2 generations ago families sure did take care of their medical problems in the home-DOCTORS MADE HOUSECALLS!


2 generations ago people died of a great deal of illnesses that are easily cured with vaccinations!

2 generations ago families had lots of children to counterbalance the HIGH INFANT MORTALITY RATE!
(In 1951, the infant death rate was 28.4 per 1,000 live births; in 1998, it was 7.2. The infant mortality rate dropped 93 percent during 1917-1997)

2 generations ago POLIO was a killer!

2 generations ago Penicillin was still somewhat new- (it was only discovered in 1929.)

2 generations ago people probably had a better diet in many respects-almost none of the current brands of food and none of the fast food franchises existed.

2 generations ago plastic surgery was also a recent discovery, the electron microscope was not yet invented, DNA was not yet identified, Insulin was not yet synthesized, and the human genome wasn't even a term.
Enjoy-Polarbear

[Deborah]

We have radically different opinions on this topic, and what constitutes 'taking responsibility' for ones health.  

What I want to say is that it makes me sad that traditional wisdom is being lost- the wisdom to take care of most health concerns at home. People are rendered completely dependent- don't even know how to care for minor things, like earache. Every little thing is a crisis requiring medical intervention. Further, due to excessive medical intervention, I've seen kids who will have a raging ear infection and NO FEVER = no defense system. What has interrupted their natural healing process?

For earache, I was treated with a baked onion, halved and stuck in a sock. Stopped the pain almost immediately and cured the earache overnight. Beats hell out of taking a weeks worth of antibiotics, which sets one up for the next infection.

Grandma was big on the Black Draught Tea cure. Old timers know the importance of being regular. Today doctors tell moms that it is 'normal' for their little ones to go 3-4 days with no movement. That blows my mind. While it is absolutely not 'normal', it is indeed 'common' due to the iron-fortified formula and cereal they consume; and what is common has come to be considered 'normal'.

It's very satisfying to me, to take responsibility for my health and to be comfortable with treating most things at home and without drugs, rx or otc. And I enjoyed teaching those things to my kids. I didn't want them to grow up dependent.

I absolutely adored Dr Mendolsohn [How to Raise a Healthy Child Inspite of Your Doctor and Confessions of a Medical Heretic]. http://www.whale.to/v/mendelsohn.html
Very tradtional old fart who still prefered and recommended honey and lemon with a touch of whiskey, over drugs, for children's colds and flu.

Somewhere between my childhood (which was by no means intervention-free) and the birth of my first child, I guess I was exposed to enough propoganda that I was loosing trust in the 'sweat-out-the-fever' traditional treatment I was raised with- the 'hot toddy and two blankets' method. When my daughter had a fever, I was up half the night fretting that she might have some life-threatening illness, and was at the clinic when the door opened at 6am. Until I read Mendelsohn, and a few others.

I prefer the simpler, gentler approach vs the 'war on illness/disease', 'seek and destroy', militaristic nature of modern medicine. I find most of the treatment to be too harsh and unnecessarily invasive.

Sounds like the system works for you. I'm sure they will serve you well.

[Tony Stark]

Spectator sport? I think it's a filthy bloodsport and I'm not paying attention. Climate of fear? We have nobody to fear but God Almighty, not religion. :smokin:

Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.

--George Orwell

[Antigen]

Post Gazette
One man from Squirrel Hill called the Post-Gazette this morning to report he had been called by a man trying to imitate former President Bill Clinton and urging him to vote, not today but tomorrow.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04307/405450.stm

Nother guy, tired of replacing stolen Kerry/Edwards signs, used vassaline to thwart thieving members of the religious reich.

If you think yourself too wise to involve
yourself in government, you will be governed
by those too foolish to govern.  
--Plato

[Polarbear]

Deborah-I don't see how we disagree.  I think there is truth in some of those home remedies.  But that is on you to look it up and decided to use it.  Some of them actually are good.  But there's also the placebo effect to be considered.  Some cures, regardless of actual value, will always work simply because people believe in them.  I could give you a ball of pine tar and a book of poetry and your cold might still clear up in 3 days.

Many of the old cures DO work.  But you can't expect doctors to rely on them for 2 simple reasons.  
First, they aren't taught in medical school.  Proven science is taught in medical school.  And that science is grounded in years of experiments and studies.  Medical research calls for all sorts of ridiculously complex tests to prove the theory.  Double-blind tests, placebos, control groups, control groups, control groups.  

Second, the lawyers would have a field day if the cure didn't work.  If a patient ate the onion instead of putting it in his ear, if they had too many coffee enemas, if they drank the shot of rum in boiling water instead of inhaling it, or if they took the smelling salts and put it on their 6 dollar burger from Carl's Jr. they would blame the doctor.  The doctor has some protection from following established procedures and regimen that he doesn't have if he uses home cures.

A doctor is a scientist, trained in the scientific method, NOT home remedies.  Until they're proven by the scientific method no doctor is likely to rely on them.  That's just how they're taught.  And no one wants a multi-million dollar suite or to be called before a board for professional mis-conduct.

There are a few advances every so often where old methods and ideas make the "cut," so to speak.  I remember a doctor made news nation-wide years ago for using obsidian in the operating room because it was more reliable and sharper than steel.  That's stepping back a few thousand years!

I hate the way the system has been twisted.  If you want to know what's truly messed up in medicine, it is that doctors have been slowly turned from healers to this new PC term "pain managers."  I don't blame the doctors for that, I blame the lawyers and bureaucrats that hijack the system for their own ends.  That's why I'm such a defender of them in this.  They're a common target, but they're not really the problem.

I say that home remedy stuff is on you-do it in your home, not at a doctor's office.  Take some time and do your own research.  That's only sensible if your health matters to you, anyway.  I have a book by Hana Kroeger, an old German nurse.  She teaches you how to clear up heavy metal poisoning using poppy seed poultices in pantyhose, how to detox your body with alternating hot and cold veggie/fruit juices, and other recipes.  I have tons of similar items on my DO-IT-YOURSELF bookshelf.  Everything from reloading to farming and so on.  But that's MY responsibility, not the doctor's.    

Ultimately, you sound like you share some similar ideas with me.  I like being responsible for my own life, too.  I don't like going to the medicos for anything.  I'm interested in learning more about medical information, home farming and gardening, canning, cooking, solar power and other alternatives, old ways of doing things outside the net, etc.  I get the Lehman's catalog and just drool over the stuff in there.  

Enjoy-Polarbear[ This Message was edited by: Polarbear on 2004-11-03 21:52 ]