Author Topic: Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later  (Read 4732 times)

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Offline Kelly1980

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« on: September 22, 2004, 11:21:00 AM »
Hi all,
This is the first time I've ever posted on one of these boards - it's been over 5 years since I graduated from Cross Creek Manor (a WWASP program), and I'm just now beginning to actively speak out about my experience there (I'm 24).  I won't go into all the details of my 18 months there - I'm sure you're all familiar with the kinds of things that I, and all of us who went to one of these programs, experienced.  The main problem that I'm having right now has more to do with my parents.  Despite several efforts on my part to get them to understand how negatively the program affected my life, they still stubbornly support and are loyal to, Cross Creek & WWASP.  I've recounted specific examples of abuses that I witnessed & experienced myself, but it continues to fall on deaf ears.  Their most common response, when the subject is brought up, is to get extremely defensive, gang up on me & repeat ad nauseum the standard mantra that, "the program saved your life! You'd be dead if it wasn't for them!" (Note: I disagree with this statement, but that's besides the point).  They also accuse me of being ungrateful & selfish for turning my back on the program that gave me "so much." I know that my situation is shared by many survivors of these programs, but my problem is that I have no idea how to deal with it.  Now that I'm actively involved in the process of speaking out against the program & trying to raise public awareness, etc., it's brought all those feelings of anger, resentment, confusion & emptiness WAY up to the surface again.  The result of all this is that I'm completely avoiding my parents (my mother, especially, who I used to speak with regularly), because I don't know if I can just have a normal conversation with them about what I'm doing this weekend, etc. without feeling really, really angry at them....At the same time though, I don't want to just bring all this up out of nowhere - because I've done this in the past, and it always causes them to blow up at me.  I don't want to lose my relationship with my parents, but at the same time, I'm incredibly sick and tired of bottling up all the pain that this experience has caused me because I'm afraid of their reaction if I speak out.  How do I call my mom and talk about the normal, daily stuff we used to with all this swirling around inside me?? Anyone who has any advice - please let me know!
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Offline thepatriot

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2004, 11:50:00 AM »
Kelly I think many of us have been through this, the way I handled it was just to shut my parents out until I was ready to talk and they were ready to listen. You are a adult now if they can't respect what you have to say about your experiances and look at where they went wrong by putting you there, they don't deserve communication with you. Sit them down explain it again as tactfully as possible if they still don't get it, then shut them out and let them stew in it. If they have to do this long enough, maybe it will then sink in. I wish you luck, you havent been out that long and the mental recovery from places like this is not easy and takes time.

Todd
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Offline BuzzKill

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2004, 02:13:00 PM »
Well, she doesn't seem to want to shut her parents out. . .
Maybe it would help to read up on cult indoctrination and de-programming. I'm thinking if you understand better why they are unable to listen and believe you, you might be able to at least have more patience with them; and maybe find ways to help break threw the conditioning.
It may be that you and they will just have to avoid the topic. There is no reason why you have to tell them what your up to; and if you want to tell them; just accept the fact they are going to bitch you out. Grin and bear it.
You might want to consider writing a letter - explaining your point of view - that you were there,(and so know what happens) and it hurts that they believe the profiteers over you, who have nothing to gain by lying at this point. Letters are good, because they can not interrupt and get you off the subject and wondering how you could have talked an hour and not said anything you wanted to say. But do keep in mind, the written word is permanent and will be read repeatedly. Don't write anything you would regret, out of anger. I'd suggest writing it. Then holding it a week. Reading it over and making any changes and then doing a final draft.
Good Luck [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-09-22 11:18 ]
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Offline Kelly1980

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2004, 02:16:00 PM »
Thanks for the reply Todd.  I've just recently started to adopt a little of that kind of attitude about my parents (i.e., I'm an adult, and if they don't like what I have to say - too bad).  Unfortunately, I'm still pretty timid when it comes to this topic with them (Cross Creek had a quite a bit to do with that) - and I still find myself making excuses for them sometimes..... you're right, it does take a long time....
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Offline spots

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2004, 08:49:00 PM »
Here I am, an old lady (60), and I still feel the void of wishing that I had a different kind of mother.  My mother went through experiences in The Depression when she was 6 to about 10 or so that are similar to WWASPS, except hers was a very poor family who had to use the "loving Catholic Church" to beat up her mind.  

She was one of 4 "illegitimate" children [old-fashioned word now] of a single mother who would forsake her children at the first sign of interest by a man in her life.  Sounds like the step-parent syndrome so many WWASPS kids live with.  She was periodically dropped off at the huge brick orphanage in Omaha, Nebraska, while her mother galavanted off with yet-another boyfriend.  Her stays lasted 3 months, 6 months...and then the mother would come straggling back to reclaim her kids when the current boyfriend absconded.  

The Catholic nuns operated this orphanage with all the hatred, food deprivation, anonymity of regimentation, and forced child labor that the world thought was just fine because the nuns loved God.  I'm sure God hated them.  My mother was too little to work sewing machines, so spent her days clipping threads off shirts being made at the orphanage for the Arrow Shirt Company.  She was the second Shirley to be in residence one time, so lost the only thing she had to call her own, her name, to be called by her middle name, Maxine.  She had to eat oatmeal every morning in order to get the single prune offered as a treat at Sunday breakfast.  She literally gagged from the smell later when she made oatmeal for me as a kid.  As such a young child, she was at a work table all day except for a brief period in the paved central courtyard, when kids would "play" without equipment or balls, etc., and the head nun held court on a dias at the center.  In a primitive "Group", any kid with "problems" was brought to the dias and publically beat with a stick which the nun ("God's wife") hid within her black robes.  She was told the frequent lightening in Nebraska summers was God searching her out (this little kid) to strike her dead.  Such was the pre-WWASPS agony of some children's life.  

Since 1930, America is enlightened enough to outlaw such a life...except in Utah.  Your political advocacy will someday make the world a better place when you identify WWASPS as such an abomination. Keep going; it will make you stronger as well as help us all.

The result of such a childhood was that my mother was a tough survivor.  She met my father during WWII, when she was barely 17, and married him after a 3-week courtship.  Theirs was a tight, fierce union, and he protected and loved her devoutly for the rest of his life.  Unfortunately, I arrived to add to the mix.  In their wonderful relationship of 2, I was not really wanted (she told me so), and I grew up knowing I was mostly a boarder in their house rather than a member of their small family. I ended up being a Only Child.  I had 4 daughters myself plus several foster teens, have been married for 41 years, and still have close contact with *most* of my kids.

The one exception: our oldest daughter chose to send our oldest grandchild to Casa by the Sea soon after she married for the second time. In spite of our frantic protests, this then-14yo spent nearly a year in WWASPS, and never moved beyond Level II, never talked directly to her mother, never left the stockade in Mexico, never had a teacher, never played a game on the grass, never looked out the window at the sunset over the ocean.  

This girl now lives with us permanently, is doing well in high school, has tons of friends.  She is now in your position in that she would like to have a mother, at least the standard perception of a female mentor, but that mom has basically refused to speak to her.  The mother is not a WWASPS groupie (thinks the seminars were really stupid), but has so many issues (mostly guilt, I think) that she cannot be with her daughter.  

I have talked with our grandaughter about the process by which parents and child move away from each other as the younger reach adulthood.  It happens...sometimes sooner, sometimes later.  For this kid, it happened much sooner, and abruptly.  The schism is there, never to be fixed.

From my own experience, I know there is always the "try" to re-create a parent, a family.  Often, it just doesn't happen.  Even as a grandparent myself, I still called my mom every couple of months, still listened to complaints and harangues, still spent the next 2 days venting my own anger to an understanding family, still hoped to have a mother who cared.  Didn't happen.  

Every one wants an *image* of a mother, but very often that just won't translate to a real person.  My advice is to live with it, not give up the dream, realize it is a dream, and move on to make the best of your own world.  You simply cannot convince your parent of the harm they did you, nor the shame they should feel, nor the righteousness of your anger. Your best hope is to be a Good Person yourself, and, if you're really lucky, your parent may say to you sometime in the far-distant future,..."I'm sorry".  Ask Ginger.
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Offline Deborah

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2004, 11:12:00 PM »
You've gotten some good advice- mine will be a bit more radical.  :wink:  I don't care to be in surface, disingenuous relationships. I find it near impossible to have a relationship in which I feel resentment or know that the other person(s) expect me to collude with a lie, their illusion.

If it were me, and I genuinely desired a relationship with them; I'd make some detailed notes, set up a time to meet with them, and tell them that I expected them to listen until I was finished, without speaking. To plan on 2-3 hours.
I'd tell them that our future relationship hinged on their agreement to participate.

Then, using my notes, I'd lay out the whole story, every detail that I could remember, emoting when I genuinely felt it.

If they are like most people they aren't going to be able to keep quiet. I imagine they'll keep putting out the worst lie of all, justifying your incarceration with the fear that you would've been dead without the program.  

Everytime they attempt to defend their decision,  remind them that- The chances of a teen between the ages of 14-18, dying in 2000 was about 1 in 3000. And that includes ALL causes of death. Half of the 13,500 deaths were due to unitentional injury. You won't be able to state the odds of you dying from drug use, because the number is so low that no one keeps track, but it is safe to say the odds were significantly less.

While the numbers aren't avaiable, I think you can fairly safely assume that a teens chance of being emotionally hurt by a program is significantly higher than their chance of dying from substance abuse, or any other cause for that matter. A recent study in Tx showed that a kid was 5 times more likely to be hurt or killed in an out-of-home placement.

I would spare no details, or their feelings, in recounting every detail of your time there. You can always forgive them in the end if you are so inclined- which goes a long way. But, before you can forgive them, there has to be an agreement that there is something to forgive. Put the ball in their court, "You either hear me out, or I'm out".

That's how I prefer to deal with those kinds of situations. Again, it might be too radicial for you, but if you can find the courage to face them,
it can be very cathartic in your recovery. In a sense, you're letting them know that your mere existence demands respect. It's really about recovering your self worth, dignity, and respect.

If the thought of doing it alone seems overwhelming, find a good therapist who will help you prepare and act as mediator at the meeting.
An added benefit of having a therpist, is that s/he may be able to help them understand the ramifications of the 'therapy' you received, and how they can support you in getting over it.

Good luck. I hope you'll share how it goes, whatever you decide.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-22 21:06 ]
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Offline Kelly1980

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2004, 12:47:00 PM »
Thanks for all the great advice everyone.  I have to admit though, that I don't think I'm really ready to give my parents an "ultimatum," if you will.  I'm just now beginning to talk to other survivors and even get the guts to take an active role in the fight against these programs, so I think it may take me a little time to get there.  I think that writing a letter is a good idea for me, because I have a tendancy to shut down & turn into a mute when I feel intimidated (which is pretty often) or ganged up on.  Of course, this is what always ends up happening when my parents and I have "this discussion," and I invariably always end up coming out of it very upset, and not saying a fraction of what I wanted to say.  I also think using a therapist as a mediator is a good idea as well - I'm in the process of looking for one right now actually.  Anyhow, I guess until that time comes, I'll just do the best I can to act normally - whatever that is....
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Offline Deborah

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2004, 01:39:00 PM »
***I have a tendancy to shut down & turn into a mute when I feel intimidated (which is pretty often) or ganged up on. Of course, this is what always ends up happening when my parents and I have "this discussion," and I invariably always end up coming out of it very upset, and not saying a fraction of what I wanted to say.

Precisely what needs to be undone. That's program conditioning, which can also be perpetrated by an abusive family member or partner, btw.

By being systematically and repeatedly 'shut down' in the program, you may have learned to respond that way to conflict. That protesting will get you nothing, but more punishment. Very effective means to inhibit one's ability to defend themselves in the face of disrespect or abuse, and silence one's victims.

This is my 'unprofessional' opinion based on experience. A person can overcome this with time and/or therapy. You can say all the things you want to say to your parents, to a therapist. You may find enough relief in doing so, that a face-to-face with your parents may not be necessary. A good therapy for this would be Gestalt, specifically 'empty chair' work. Seek out an experienced therapist. Just gotta change the 'software' program they installed against your wishes and without your permission.  :wink:  
As long as the hardware's intact, the software can be changed, or quarentine, as it were, depending on one's choice. Quarentine meaning to try to function on top of the unspoken resentment and distress. This works to a degree for most people, but the 'pop ups' will most likely continue to bug one until the software is removed.

And, it's always good to go at your own pace. Don't allow anyone to push you. You'll know when it's the right time for you.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-23 10:48 ]
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Offline Kelly1980

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2004, 04:43:00 PM »
Deborah -

Wow - you really nailed it on the head with your analysis of my "shutting down" with my parents.  This fear/intimidation/timidity problem that I have has really escalated and gotten out of control as the years have gone on.  I had this issue before I went into the program (my father is a very intimidating man), but being in the program REALLY made it A LOT worse - especially since my therapist at Cross Creek was this large, aggressive, very loud man also.  And then, of course, after I got out and was in college I managed to get myself tangled up in an EXTREMELY mentally/emotionally abusive relationship (that was beginning to turn physical right around the time I left) for two years.  It's really pretty ridiculous how far reaching all of the WWASP programming is in my life.
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Offline Anonymous

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2004, 01:06:00 PM »
First thing's first.  Accept that you have zero control over what your parents do and what they do, which may ultimately preclude a relationship, is not your fault.

Accept that you cannot change them or save them.

Accept it now, firmly.  Say it to yourself, and repeat it to yourself whenever they do something you don't like.

Accept that you will never have the parents you want them to be, we don't get to pick our parents, they are the people they are.

Accept your anger.  Accept that you will feel it, that it is normal and obviously understandable to any rational person and that you don't need to either shut it down AND you don't need to wallow in it.  You just need to accept it and let it flow over you and away when it comes.

Accept that on this subject your parents are not rational people.  

If you want to *try* to encourage them to break loose from the cult programming of WWASPS, try something called SIA--Strategic Interaction something or other.  

Accept that, like a drinking alcoholic, *you* cannot change them, *they* have all the power over themselves to decide whether or not they will change.

Accept that *YOU* have the power of what you decide and what you do.

Now, having accepted all that, with *the people they are*, decide if you're willing to drop the subject other than *maybe* an attempt at SIA, and just talk to them about the weather, etc.

They're like a puppy that pooped on the carpet sometime or other today, but you didn't catch him at it at the time.  It really stinks, and you're probably mad at the world for having to clean up the mess, but there's just no *point* in being mad at the puppy if you're going to keep him.

The problem with all your anger and my giving you advice is that I don't know, and *can't* know, whether what you want is a relationship with better parents but *not* a relationship with the parents you have, and you're upset with yourself for really deep down not wanting a relationship with the parents you have when you think you should----OR----whether you do want a relationship with these parents you have, with them as the flawed people they are, and are just having problems with the interaction reminding you of your anger.

If it's the first one, you need to give yourself permission to *not* have a relationship with these particular people and divert that energy and desire for a healthy relationship into friendships with other people.

If it's the second one, then you need to talk your anger out with a therapist or a good, supportive friend and work through those feelings without venting them on or at your human, flawed parents.

Your parents are more flawed than most.  Having a relationship with them is not something you have an absolute daughterly duty to do.  BUT if you *want* to accept those flaws and keep the relationship, you have the right to do that.  You just don't get to choose that they'll behave themselves the way you want them to.  They likely won't *ever* do that.

You don't sound like you've accepted that they are as they are.

You have to do that before you even *know* if you want the relationship.  

Right now, what you want is to have a relationship with the people you wish they were, and that isn't on your menu of options.

First, you have to come to terms with the reality of who they are and what they're like.

Then and only then can you feel out, in your own heart, what you really want or don't want with the people they really are.

Once you truly accept who they are, you can socialize with them without venting your anger on them, either actively or passive-aggressively by keeping on bringing up what happened OR you can accept that you don't like the people who happen to be your biological parents, accept that tragedy for the reality it is, and walk away from them.

You need to do one or the other.

But you have to accept the reality of who they are before you even can know what you want to do about them.

Timoclea
(All of this is obviously my opinion, YMMV.)
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Offline Anonymous

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2004, 01:15:00 PM »
Oh, one more thing.  If you *do* decide to keep the relationship, then if *they* bring up the program in a bad way, I'd just say, "Mom, Dad, I can't talk about this with you, if you're going to insist on talking about this, I'm going to have to leave now."

Then if they don't drop it, if you're physically there, leave, or if you're on the phone, hang up.

Either they'll quit bringing it up in a bad way, or, for your own mental health, you'll *have* to terminate the relationship.

There are certain kinds of crap that it's lethal to the soul to just sit there and take when you know you can walk away.

So a relationship just may not be possible on healthy terms no matter what you want.

But if they'll drop the subject and not talk about it, you can *choose* to drop it and work through your anger talking about it to someone else.

They'd have to *really* drop it, though.  If they get in the habit of making passive-aggressive veiled digs about it, and it gets worse instead of decreasing when you try hanging up or leaving when they do it, then, again, staying in an ongoing abusive relationship wouldn't be healthy.

Timoclea
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Offline spots

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2004, 04:06:00 PM »
Quote
...for your own mental health, you'll *have* to terminate the relationship.



There are certain kinds of crap that it's lethal to the soul to just sit there and take when you know you can walk away.



So a relationship just may not be possible on healthy terms no matter what you want.


Excellent! "In a nutshell..."  This is what I finally did, way into my adult life.  I know it was necessary, and I also know the feelings of folks on this thread who want desperately for it to be a "healthy" [normal] relationship.  The walking-away from my mother's relationship wasn't total and complete.  I still called sometimes, still talked about things for a few minutes until she started up on me again.  I had to finally understand that SHE was unhappy, and I was her closest whipping post at the time.  Distance makes the heart grow stronger!

I called her every few weeks or so during her last 4 years, but did not visit in person (except once when I was alone in her town on a business trip, and the same scene started within minutes of my walking in her door).  She committed suicide alone in her condo at a gated community for active seniors at age 76, with her amended will nearby disowning me...her final penalty for me. I am the child of a very unhappy person, and I make my own life as good as I can.  I was ultimately not responsible for sending happiness into the life of someone who could not accept it.
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Offline granny19

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2004, 12:16:00 AM »
My beautiful Granddaughter is still in one of those places (WWASP}, not sure which one, but probably as bad as the rest of them. I cry for her every night, and miss her so much that my heart is permanently broken. She is and was a
good little girl, constantly berated by her mother and stepfather. In any case, she does not belong in a "behavior modification program", she belonged in a loving home, which she did not have. Numerous relatives asked to have her come and live with them, because they could see the mental and emotional abuse she was undergoing in her home. Of course, her controling and sick stepfather, rather than admitting that the entire family had a problem, chose to send the poor child to a WWASP jail. I am currently seeking legal remedies, for each time a child is sent across state lines without due process, it is in violation of the law. Unfortunately, the laws are ignored because the victims' families are usually wealthy (they have to be to afford these "kiddy jails") and the authorities do not want to  make any waves....just look at the amount of money these places donate to political pursuits...mainly those that promote softer child abuse laws, and politicians who support that premise. The entire situation is digusting, and all of the kids who have been so abused should stand up (if they still have a functioning brain) and file a class action suit to both sue their parents and the facilities that abused them. I would suggest contacting attorney Thomas Burton: [email protected]. I am hoping and praying that he can help me get my granddaughter out. God Bless all of you who have undergone this abuse. Please know there is a "granny" out there who feels for all of you. I pray that you are all going to be ok.
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Offline Kiwi

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2004, 07:45:00 AM »
granny19, get another lawyer.

Check out the hash Tom Burton made of the suit against SAFE:
http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?forum=12&topic=1680

Every one of the lawsuits he has pursued against WWASP has failed, not because of the substantive issues but because of technicalities that he should have had covered.  Don't even think of asking him to represent you in Utah: the courts do not recognize him there.
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Offline suspended heart

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Parents who still sing the program's praises - 5 years later
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2004, 04:31:00 PM »
Hi Kelly,
This is my first time using this format. I sent my son to a wwasp in samoa which I deeply regret. He's been home now for 6 years. 3 years ago he stopped talking to me. When he first approached me with his true view of the program I was defensive. It takes a huge amount of egolessness to suddenly realize or even begin to think that what you did for your teen may have been the worst thing. What was so confusing for me was that he seemed so open and communicative and capable of anytnhing when he came home so I felt like I was being hit by a bomb. So... I resisted at first but not too long after I began to be suspitious ( I was never a total yahoo progrmy parent.)I then asked him what he wanted me to do. He said "researche what I'm telling you." I did that and spend alot of endless  nightmarish nights trying to sort through the positve and negative stuff. Then I called him and asked for him to give me his personal story as he always spoke of the program in impersonal terms. I was ready to reliquish to my errors at which point he completly shinned me on, turned his back, never telling me another thing, never speaking to me again. I have written him several times asking for his forgivness.
I cannot tell if his wound is so deep or if his loathing of me is so deeply rooted in who knows what else, or maybe he just had no bloody idea what to do so he does nothing.
What this has to do with you is this:
You have anger but you can't reach your parents in any real way. You seem to not desire to antagonise them but would like them to hear you and quit defending thier position and the stupid program. I think taking your distance in order to do some healing for yourself is a good idea. Maybe find a therapist who specializes in deprogramming as someone else suggested. Get your head straight about where you end and your parents/program begin. If you are pure of heart in the sense that you wish for a positive outcome for all of you I definatly recommend not acting out of hatred/anger. It is ultamitaly, now that you are and adult, your responsiblitiy to take care of your mixed emotions. When you have found that stability in yourself then approach your parents. If they hang in there with the same old crap, well then... they just are so deeply entrenched with the training of the program themselves and that will be their responsibility to manage and they eventually will do that if they see that the wall they put up has driven you away. Best of luck to you. I might even know you or your familly... scary...
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