O5, This is where you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion. It appears that you are attempting to expand the definition of BM to include instruction and teaching. Way off base.
I do not believe that learning to use the toilet is BM. (No pun intended :lol: ). Unless you are issuing rewards and punishments for performance. As you may notice, I don?t care for the word ?train?. It makes me think of animals, particularly horses, where the objective is to break the will. My kids learned to use the toilet by observing other human beings use it. Same with utensils, same with listening. I consider learning by observing to be teaching, modeling; and more desirable. I disagree with the belief that kids have to be molded. You seem to discount their intelligence and ability to learn through observation and practice, without rewards and punishments. As far as I can tell parents resort to molding, or modifying, when they want the kid to perform on their time table. Because they want to take pride in the fact that their child was ?trained? to shit in the toilet before they knew what shit was. And that?s not 60s, recycled thinking. It?s Montessori.
I said the parents role is to teach by modeling, guiding. Although you seem to see this as a ?problem with me?, I don?t. Some good comes from each generation- the 60s was not an era to be ignored- it?s ignorant to throw out the baby with the bath water. And weren?t those ?no limits? parents following some pop-psychologists? recommendations? Scared shitless of emotionally scaring their kids- so swung to being overly permissive- not wanting to be like their own authoritarian and puritanical parents. Extremes create extreme reactions. That?s the crux of that lesson.
Just as well face what O5? Don?t attempt to speak for me or imply that I have said something I didn?t.
I never suggested that I wouldn?t stop a child from running into the street, or from striking a sibling, or prevent the fatal consequence of eating poison. Quiet the contrary. What is your agenda to suggest otherwise? I did suggest that it would be beneficial if parents didn?t rush to overprotect and rescue, thereby robbing the child of valuable developmental lessons- the kind that ONLY true natural consequences teaches- AND, if the consequence would not result in injury that would require medical attention. In large part, it teaches those important lessons of ?limits?. Some kids are so overprotected that they don?t know their own limitations, much less those of society. They are not allowed to make mistakes, but are rather subjected to molding by parents and society- functioning under the false belief that reasoning and persuasion can prevent experimentation- can circumvent the human drive to learn through experience, or circumvent the underlying emotion(s) driving the destructive behavior. Hence, teens catching themselves on fire, jumping off roofs, etc- yet another extreme reaction to authorities attempt to control rather than guide. This thinking also wrongly assumes that a person?s ?destructive? behavior is a result of errant genes, mental illness, or maliciousness; never, or rarely does it consider that it is a result of not having one?s needs met. Psychology scrambles to find some elusive excuse, when its so plain and simple, short of brain damage. But they do accurately recognize the limitations of parents. So, instead we get labels, drugs, and BM facilities- the quick and effortless fixers.
My observation is that we don?t learn through osmosis. Your fear based story (persuasion) is not going to stop me from doing anything that I am driven to do. We may agree that what I am driven to do is destructive, and if so, from that point we might explore why I am driven to do it, and proceed to dismantle the underlying cause. You are not going to persuade a two yr old not to climb a tree if everything in his being is driving him to do so. He?ll just do it behind your back, be anxious about getting to the top before you notice, and probably get hurt. But, you can stand under the tree, prepared to catch him when he falls. Experience- the absolute very best teacher. The problem with most parents, that?s just too damned inconvenient. And don?t confuse this to mean letting them get hit by a car. I think you know we?re both more intelligent than that.
After reading a few reviews, I?m not interesting in investing in Postman?s book
http://www3.sympatico.ca/ersatz-sprocke ... rance.htmlhttp://www.rememberingneilpostman.com/000077.htmlhttp://interact.uoregon.edu/MediaLit/ml ... rance.htmlI agree with some of this author?s thinking, but for me, I think he has a faulty beginning assumption. The media and TV are not solely responsible for the ills of society, OR the Disappearance of Childhood. Afterall, there was/is ample ?bad? information in books as well. TV just brought the thoughts, beliefs, and values written in those books into our homes on a daily basis. Books, traditional literature and schooling are not a panacea. It?s simply not that black and white. It could be argued that TV, depending on what one is watching, could actually be a very positive thing- taking us back to a time of oral tradition- which I?m aware doesn?t have much value amongst many academians. That may be an explanation for why so many people are more drawn to TV than reading. They?d rather hear the spoken word than isolate with the written word. I?d much prefer to hear my grandmother tell one of her fascinating non-fiction stories about REAL people, than to read. or be read, a boring ?approved? children?s book. They were boring when I was a kid, and I refused to subject my kids to most of the classics. Speaking of which, were no more than adult entertainment passed off as children?s books and nursery rhymes. Fuck a bunch of mother goose. Some of the shit was down right morbid. And how can a child deal with death, when society has removed him/her from the process? Relegated it to be something you read about, but don?t experience. How is it helpful to talk about it in books when they don?t talk about it at home, they don?t see it, or touch it, experience it. Rescue people from dealing with their dead, rescue them from their grieving process, rescue them from burying their dead. Rescue, rescue, rescue. There?s a damned lot of conditioning going on, creating emotionally weak human beings, who have lost all sense of what ?living? is.
Parents need the courage to be real and honest with their kids. The courage to not control from fear. The courage to listen and respond.
I have no idea what you are attempting to say here, ?Too much of the way of thinking that I find myself ascribing to people like you seems, by its very nature, to undermine that normal parental instinct toward love and discipline.? If you care to be specific, we can further discuss this. Otherwise, it will fall by the wayside as another attempt to misrepresent me.
That?s my rant. If you have a different opinion you are entitled to express it. I am not interested in hearing any further elitist evaluations of my thinking and opinions. Let's see if you can meet the challenge.
