For the Guys on Moose Talk

[Antigen]

I don't see any evidence. If you ask my mom today, she'll tell you just about the same line of shit you're telling me about The Seed and Straignt (both long since closed down under a cloud of criminal and civil complaints)

What I see is a parent who doesn't really want to look a gift horse in the mouth. The kid has outgrown his youthful excesses and you paid big bucks to believe that you were the cause of it. You're a good, good toughloving mother, Ottowa. Now go home and enjoy your rewards. Don't expect to see much of your grandkids, though. Experience tells me that you probably won't.

Never let your sense of
    morals get in the way of
    doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov

[ottawa5]

What in the world do you know about my grandchildren? Or me, or my children, for that matter?

What exactly are you trying to self-justify by imagining things about me that are way out of proportion to anything that you can possibly know about me?

That notwithstanding, since you've been kind (or opinionated) enough to tell me what you see in my story, let me tell you what I see in yours.  

I see someone who, fairly late in life, is still fighting the same battles that she was fighting many years ago. This on-going drama with your mother, for instance, that you allude to from time to time.

For some reason, the fact that CEDU has worked out well for people like me and my child is very threatening to you. I don't completely get why that is, but I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the choices that you have made have led to less-than-expected results, and it makes you really mad that another approach worked out well for somebody else. It makes you really mad that hard choices, and courage, and discipline have worked for somebody else.

Look, if you made other choices, well, live with them, or change course, don't blame or attack or diminish others who are pretty content with what their choices have achieved.

I've got to say it Ginger, I get the sense of some kind of burr under your saddle, admirably concealed but certainly there. For some one who presents as a person with all the answers, a quotation for every circumstance even , you just don't seem to me like someone who has the kind of generosity and /or insight about others and their experiences that would be expected if you were so all-fired sure that your way is the best.  I also notice some lack of a  sense of responsibility to know that sometimes, grown-ups have to be grown-ups and make choices for children, and I wonder what is that about.

Well, you will be what you are, I'm sure, as I will. But your most recent remarks make me even less concerned about your opinion of my positive view of CEDU or about my choice in sending my son to RMA.

[Hamiltonf]

Ginger, Why do you even bother with this pseudo-psychologist who will never pass her dissertation because she hasn't got the slightest comprehension of what you are talking about?
Every criticism she has of you can be turned around by you as a a criticism of herself.
For example: she says:
" the fact that CEDU has worked out well for people like me and my child is very threatening to you. I don't completely get why that is, but I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the choices that you have made have led to less-than-expected results, and it makes you really mad that another approach worked out well for somebody else. It makes you really mad that hard choices, and courage, and discipline have worked for somebody else.

Look, if you made other choices, well, live with them, or change course, don't blame or attack or diminish others who are pretty content with what their choices have achieved"

This is pseudo-psychology at its worst.  It's a rationalization for her own inadequacy.  "hard choices?  Courage?  Discipline?  Come on Ottawa, stop being self-righteous.  You're mixing up morality (your morality) with psychology.  You were inadequate as a parent.  You choose to excuse your inability to empathise with whatever motivated your son (and quite possibly misinterpreted his motivations) and you continue to be racked with guilt.
So stop trying to lay a guilt trip on Ginger because it won't work.  And oh, by the way, you were talking about mantra's?  Frankly, when my kids were 15, I was more worried about them starting smoking thatn I would have been about them smoking pot (which they did) and I was confident enough in the values that they had developed to know that I couldn't force them to accept anything I might want to impose on them.
So give us a break.  You'll not convince anyone of any benefits of these coercive programs because there are none.  They are totalitarean and merely encourage double-think in aspiring psychologists like yourself.
Save us from people like you who would save us from ourselves!

[ottawa5]

Something I should be used to by now, you being way,way out in left field, that is.

If Ginger wants to ignore me, I am sure that she knows how to do so, without any chanting from the peanut gallery (that would be you in the current context).

And I won't pass my dissertation because I don't know what Ginger is talking about?  What are you on, my dear, this is perilously close to raving, I know you're big on legalized drugs but really, let's stay somewhat concrete in these discussions.

Incidentally the current discussion has nothing to do with the practice of psychology so I don't get why you've got yourself all worked up about my remarks sounding like pseudopsychology. What is your sensitivity there, I wonder, that you would ascribe a psychological or pseudo psychological purpose to a person-to- person discussion that, if anything, has to do with a philosophical difference of opinion about what it means to be a parent.

And speaking of philosophical differences, you seem pretty proud of the fact that your children are habitual drug users and that you encouraged them to become so, you've mentioned it before.  Pretty ghastly to my way of thinking.  

Perhaps other parents who read about the pride you get from this state of affairs will get a feel for where your type of thinking comes from and where it predictably leads.  That may help them to decide whether that's what they want for their kids, you can certainly given them guidance about how to be your kind of parent, if that's what they aspire to.

[Hamiltonf]

Exactly the sort of response I would have predicted.  Rave on Ottawa.  You're beginning to sound like Monty Python's argument theme.
 You came into this forum declaring yourself to be doing post graduate  psychology work and seeking answers and you've done nothing but try to impose your own views on those who would give you them.  Ginger, much to her credit has tried, as have the others, and when they do, all you do is try to attribute base motives to them, and malign them as somehow being failures.  
You said:
"And speaking of philosophical differences, you seem pretty proud of the fact that your children are habitual drug users"
I did not say they were habitual drug users.  Speaking of Philosophical differences, they have adopted the Aristotelean Mean in their lives.  Go  look that up, because when my son was 15 he was reading Descartes.  
You said re their drug use, " and that you encouraged them to become so, you've mentioned it before. Pretty ghastly to my way of thinking."

No, I said I would be more worried about them smoking cigarettes than smoking pot.  And at all times their use of drugs has been an informed use.      It's your basic assumption, along with that of the Fundamentalist American Hard Christian Right (the FAHCR's), that all drug use is abuse which lies at the root of these schools (and your basic assumption, it seems) and is one of the most frightening things about the people running this coalition of idiots. It's the prohibition that is ghastly and has produced such ghastly results.  No, I did not encourage them.  Other than to be honest.  But what those schools do is cultivate a fundamental intellectual dishonesty, much like yours.      
You said:

"Perhaps other parents who read about the pride you get from this state of affairs will get a feel for where your type of thinking comes from and where it predictably leads."
Oh, wise one, where will this predictably lead? The vast majority of people who try drugs do not become addicted.  Or is that your prediction that people who are not believed, understood or have self-esteem issues have to be forced into teen help therapy otherwise they will destroy themselves -- that becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prohecy, doesn't it?  The DARE program is an excellent example of why the American War on drugs has failed is failing and will continue to fail.    I'm an atheist, but I believe that the story of the forbidden fruit is indeed an analogy for what is happening in the drug war.  It's almost a self - fulfilling prophecy. Was it your fear of what your son was to become that was driving him into drug abuse?  What you have done is what is too ghastly to comprehend.  
You said:  
 "That may help them to decide whether that's what they want for their kids, you can certainly given (sic) them guidance about how to be your kind of parent, if that's what they aspire to."
Do you mean permissive, understanding, kind, empathetic?  It's what I would aspire to, but unfortunately, I've failed at that.  But it's my children who have (re)taught me these values. Through their experiences they have indeed rekindled those sentiments and motivated me to oppose the types of "help" stemming from Straight-like puritanistic cults.  Sometimes they worry me, because they refuse to cross over to the other side of the street when they see someone less fortunate than themselves.  But they have given real help to people with real drug problems because they can empathise.  On the other hand you, dear Ottawa, don't even know the meaning of the word  -- just force them into your mould the good old American Way.

And your attempts to be pejorative in references to my being in left field seems to reveal more about yourself than what it says about me -- as does much of your ranting.
   
 :wave:  :eek: [ This Message was edited by: Hamiltonf on 2004-09-08 01:23 ]

[Ottawa2]

This is what I ment when I said I was greatful for my parents!
I just cant belive that people actually excisted who would be proud to have druggie children!

Hamiltonf you said that your parenting style was "permissive, understanding, kind, empathetic"
I was think it was more along the lines of "illegal" and "neglectful" but hey as the saying gose "you say tamato I say tamato."

Let me guess you want to be your childs friend?
I belive it was shanlea who said that pareniting is a fine line. I guess what I question about you parenting style then is where do you draw the line beteew being a friend and being a parent???
Cuz it seem to me that you would rather seem "cool" to your kids instead of actual setting boundries and rules.
 :wave:

[Antigen]

On 2004-09-08 01:17:00, Hamiltonf wrote:

And your attempts to be pejorative in references to my being in left field seems to reveal more about yourself than what it says about me -- as does much of your ranting.

It also sort of cast doubt on her stayed belief that the kid would be deadinsaneorinjail w/o the Program. My mother believed, and likely believes to this day, that that pungent smelling empty baggie she found under my matterss was 100%, irrefutable proof of my impending death by overdose. I have to wonder if this kid even had a problem of his own or if O5 is just that paranoid.

The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects...
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.

[blownawaytheidahoway]

Do you have any idea how stupid you seem?
How come neither of you have taken the time to look over and respond to my postings? I have said plenty, but you seem afraid. I will tell you what I think:

Forget it, you are not worth the time it takes to write.
     Tell yo' momma to respond to me. I've been sending her plenty of info to deny happened to me. Hardy har, how would you guys know so much about what I went through?

Oh and ottowa2:
TOMATO, tomahto,
But I guess you are just not clever enough to finger it out.
-blowme
-away

[Ottawa2]

If you really have such a problem with my spelling or me then just ingnore my posts. It really not that hard.
Iv already explained the reasons for my poor spelling several times so I do not feel the need to explain again.

Also, I have ablsolutly no control over who my mother respones to or dose not responed to. If you really want to talk to her that badly send her a PM or responed to one of her post and ask her whatever you want.
Again really not that hard.

Interesting though how you say you want to speak with my mother yet we are not worth the time?:-?  
Mind explaining that one to me?
 :wave:

[blownawaytheidahoway]

Please read some of my posts and respond about my recently diagnosed PTSD stemming from CEDU education. You (if you ARE honest) will surely see that the program has had a negative impact on my life. Pure and simple. I am learning that it is exactly the things that you say are so detramental to the success of the program that are causing many agony for the rest of their lives. Being removed from a harmful environment as a youth is one thing. Putting me through something else and then calling it something inocuous like removal from negative influences is NOT helpful. I'm not going to let it be the case for me that it lasts a lifetime, and I NEED this site and the support of the people who know FIRSTHAND what I'm talking about. You visiting the program(presumably flying in to stay at a hotel and attend a parent conference or two) tell you nothing about what kids experience in raps, profeets, dorms, work, house-time or SQUAT. WE ARE TELLING YOU WHAT IS REAL. Not what appeared real to the parents PAYING for the program.
     I am ready to explain my view patiently to you, but I won't be assailed by your teeny bopper bandwagoning disrespectful "daughter" who should learn how to use spell check if she wants people to take her seriously. Don't you want her to learn to spell better? And what about learning? Don't you guys believe in bettering the lysdexia symptoms and confidence issues?
I have dyslexia so don't gimme any shit about "I can't help it".

P.s. I wouldn't be surprised if the persons posting as Ottowa2&5 are in fact the same individual.

Oh! and very convenient about the "son" not wanting to post. You're family's bordering on appearing sheepish, unaccountable and dishonest.
Are you really interested in remedying that? We'll see.
-Blownawaytheidahoway

[ottawa5]

To Blownaway--Your post contains many threads. According to your way of thinking, I may or may not exist as an independent person, or I may some kind of composite of myself, my daughter, and, I suppose, my son.

I don't know what I can say that is productive in terms of such a strange concept--believe what you want to believe, I guess, if you have specific questions, I will, if possible, answer them.

As far as my family "appearing sheepish, dishonest and unaccountable", again,I don't have any clear idea of why you think my family appears one way or another (only myself and my little daughter have ever posted here), and, at any rate, I don't care that much about appearances, so I will need some kind of specific inquiry to be involved in any meaningful exchange with you on this score either.

More importantly, in terms of your diagnosed PTSD, I don't know the details, but if you were abused and in fear of serious harm to yourself or others in a school setting, then, yes, I believe that a person could become seriously traumatized in those kinds of circumstances.  If you say that this happened to you then I have no reason to disbelieve it, and if the people responsible can be found, they should be held accountable.

What I am saying is that this experience of trauma that you describe did not happen to everyone who attended CEDU institutions---I am not just relying on my parent conference experiences, but upon what I have been told by my son and others, several years after leaving RMA, at a point in time when they are doing well in their lives and when they have no interest in or reason for lying about their school experiences.

I am guessing that these programs existed in many different forms over the years, and sometimes, as in your case, people crossed some boundaries and did some harm.

My point is not to say that abuse is good. It is to point out that these kinds of programs, with the help of reasonable, caring staff and clear, well-thought-out person-centered policies, can be run in a way that is still confrontative (as is sometimes needed with oppositional kids)but without the kinds of abuses that you and others testify to.

On another note, I think that you come very close to taking cheap shots at my daughter--surely you are aware that dyslexia comes in a number of forms and that spelling and phonetics are harder for some people with dyslexia than for others. She is really proud of how her brother has done post-RMA and is trying to tell you about how the program was good for him and for others who we know quite well.  However, I have told her that if she chooses to involve herself with the bunch at this site, she is on her own, so that is all I will say about that.

So if you are really interested in any more specific discussions, I would be glad to hear from you--if you do address me again and I don't get right back to you, it is not because I am ignoring you, it is just that I can be on-line more sometimes than others.