Author Topic: For the Guys on Moose Talk  (Read 8436 times)

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Offline Oppositional Defiance

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« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2004, 07:13:00 AM »
Well, ottowa, all I can say to that and to you is I hope someday you can experience fully the kindness yourself which was the kindness of your son being given to CEDU.

Bye
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ppositional Defiance,
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2004, 09:03:00 AM »
To Shanlea
about the straight "A" students who were using drugs.  Im not sure I like your assumptions about drug use  i.e. that it's morally wrong or destructive. Drugs can be lots of fun  --- but moderation in all things, dont you think?  Have you read Alexander Shulgin's book, PIHKAL?

I think the central assumptions of all these schools  is the moralistic self righteousness that sees all drug use as abuse.  If people are using drugs such as alcohol and it isn't detrimentally affecting their lives, and they are not getting violent or destroying their liver, do you call them alcoholics? If people are smoking pot and experiencing a greater appreciation for (say) Miles Davies, do you call him a pothead?  If someone uses LSD or mushrooms to gain psychic insights do you call them druggies. The key is moderation not condemnation
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Offline shanlea

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« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2004, 09:17:00 AM »
No, don't get me me wrong, I'm not that black and white on drug use. Personally, I see a lot of people hwo benefit from some herb use, and I'd rather deal with someone on herbs than some drunk any day of the week. I personally don't smoke b/c I don't like inhaling smoke. Other drugs do freak me out a little and that is a personal bias on watching things happen that I don't want to get into right now. It's a little prejudicial but it has to do with experiences.  And sure, I'd rather not see someone abuse any drug whether alcohol, crystal meth, or prescribed.

What I meant about the straight A student was that I knew many honor students who were not good people (kiss asses and liars) and many not so good students who had character, but guess who were more highly regarded by parents and teachers? And, a straight A student on drugs is less likely to be shipped off than a mediocre student on drugs as long as the person presents a good face.  That's what I mean. I grew up in a community that values resumes over character in a big way and it always struck me as BS. I am not saying straight A students who smoke are bad people, not at all.
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hanlea

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2004, 01:32:00 PM »
O5, I predict that you'll never be able to put together a synanon that 'works' because you don't understand how it works.

It's not only necessary to convince that kid that the bad influences were bad. How would the staff or "older"* brother/sister know, for example, if a particular old friend was a good and worthwhile friend or not? They don't. So it's necessary for the kid to reject and condemn everything about themselves prior to entry into the cult (oops! I mean school, of course!)

It's not that I think it's good or alright for a kid to do drugs, be permiscuous or to take other foolish risks. It's just that, having been there myself and compared notes w/ a lot of other people who have also been there, I recognize that the self annihilation of forced thought reform can be far more devistating than those other, voluntary adventures.

I'm w/ OD on this one. You won't 'get it' unless you get a good dose of it yourself. The only way I know of for you to get that would be to check yourself into something like Talbot Recovery near Atlanta or Phoenix House.

BTW, OD, an old friend of min put it this way.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people who ran straight had the best of intentions. I hope they reached their destination."
-James Lloyd

*in reality, it's just as often a younger kid playing the role of older brother/sister. But, in the Program, all of your past sensibilities and meters must be rejected in favor of the Group paradigm.



Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus



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Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2004, 03:21:00 PM »
O5,
And what would you have done if sending your son to a program had not been an option, whether because they didn't exist or because you didn't have the financial resource?
How have parents and teens survived all these years without them? And not that I condon it, but there was nothing that the program did that you couldn't have done at home if you put your mind and attention to it.
Sounds like you blame his seedy friends. You could've kept him from them with some effort.
Now, that might be a problem, as most program parents would prefer not to have their personal lives/careers disrupted. Their personal needs and wants always come before the needs of their child.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2004, 04:35:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-09-07 12:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

You could've kept him from them with some effort.



No, a parent can't legally go to the lengths to control a kid that they do in programs like CEDU. You can make demands, threaten punishment (like grounding), withdraw allowance, cars, toys or whatever. But a parent, or anyone else for that matter, can't physically throw a kid to the ground and restrain them if they decide to not come home at curfew or to associate w/ people their parents don't like. That would be assault on a minor. You can't deprive them of sleep to make your point, either. That would be child abuse.

It's still child abuse when done inside the Program. But inside the Program, there are no objective wittnesses. All wittnesses are under threat and disabled, do a large degree, by diagnosis.

Don't sweat the
Petty Things

Don't pet the
Sweaty Things

Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity

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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2004, 04:48:00 PM »
At least the idea that we could have done something about my son's situation if we had just put our minds to it, underestimates both his intentions to violate every limit we set. I mean, we were there, we know what we went through, and with respect, you were not there to have an opinion about it. People who know our story tell us that they have never met parents who tried harder and more ingeniously to stop a kid who was in a down-ward spiral.

We tried everything we could think of, or just about anything reasonable that others suggested, I assure you, he was just thoroughly unwilling at that time to reconsider his life-style.  If we cut off his allowance he stole or sold drugs.  If we set a consequence he defied it openly or undermined it. He lied constantly and tricked us for the fun of it, and being bright he was very good at it. When we sent him to another state to live with a relative when he wouldn't stay away from the crowd he was in, he found a crowd just like it in about a week.

In short, he was bent on living destructively.  Even if we had wanted to use the police to try to enforce our decisions, our state  laws at the time that all this happened weren't especially supportive of parents (this has changed somewhat, in part due to our efforts in working with our representative and telling our story to the legislature). We did in fact call the police more than once when things were really out of control and not until he had actually gotten very violent did they even become involved, in a very minor way.

You ask what other parents would do. Some would have let the kid work his way into the criminal justice system, even in a lax state like ours, most kids who are acting the way he was would get there eventually.  You might say:  why didn't we just wait and then let him be placed in a juvenile prison program. It seemed to me that he would just get in with a more lawless crowd in that kind of program and so we chose to try an emotional growth school.  

Of course some kids smarten up instead of digging themselves in deeper, but we had to judge by what we were seeing, and the rapidity of the changes that we were seeing. We chose to act and not throw the dice and see if it all worked out. I am the first to admit, by the way, that we were lucky to be able to afford RMA, even though we had to make sacrifices to do it, and I think that it would be a terrible thing not to have had that option--that is one of the reasons that we still contribute to these programs to help parents keep their kids there when they run out of money,

All I can say, in spite of all the nay-sayers here, is that it was a wonderful gift to find this place he is a better person because of it, and we are better people and better parents because of it.

So believe what you like, I have heard about bad staff and abuses here, these things are terrible and something that must be corrected when they happen.  But our experience was good, by and large.  Of course I wish that we had had a better bond as he entered his teenaged years, maybe if we had, RMA wouldn't have been necessary.  As it was, it was a life-saver.  

You might ask how his old friends who didn't get sent away are doing now. Of his crowd, one is dead (a late night collision still involved in the old routines), two or maybe three are (or were) in prison last I heard. Several are reportedly underachieving pot-heads but at least they are working somewhere, so they have calmed down a bit. One is community college and becoming a cook and has just gone through some kind of drug treatment. I only know of one (besides my son) who is at university, she was sort of a hanger-on to the group so I guess she out-grew the whole thing without much damage.

Bottom line: we had a hard choice to make and we are happy with our decision. I don't want anyone to have to go through some of the abusive situations that I've heard described here, but our own experience tells us that there is also a right way to run an emotional growth program.  That is what I support.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2004, 05:03:00 PM »
O5, if your son was so defiant, how did they make him stay, let alone make him follow direction, at CEDU? Do you know? Do you understand how that works?

Don't hate the media. Become the media

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2004, 05:04:00 PM »
Good, Shanlea.  
I'm glad you made that clear.  As for straight A students and drugs -- my pot supplier when I was in my 20's got on the 98th percentile on the LSAT and went on to become a leading personal injury lawyer.  And I've smoked pot and listened to Miles Davies with a shortlisted Rhodes Scholar who later went on to become the Dean of a prominent Law School.  So much for pot's dangers to the intellect.
Aah well.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2004, 05:16:00 PM »
Antigen: You and I have much deeper differences than the specifics of any program.

I've read your responses over the last couple of months, and I don't know exactly what you are going for, or why, but it seems to be some kind of laissez-faire, uninvolved, anarchistic, "nobody is responsible" parenting that I think is really wrong and really dangerous in the kind of a world that most kids grow up in today.

You and your "synanon this" and "cult that", it's like a mantra with you!!! Just desperately foolish and wrong-headed, you just don't even seem to have any awareness that kids, especially dangerously acting out kids need structure and rules and to be required to sit down and consider instead of acting out.  Before something worse happens.

It's your whole world view, some kind of a cartoonish, 60's hippie renaissance, it seems to have a lot of naivity to it and most especially to glorify and justify drug use.  

I have to tell you, I have a lot of problems with the drug laws in this country and I think they should be changed on a libertarian basis, why criminalize people for having a bad habit, and let's face if, that's what recreational drug use is for many, probably most, people.  But you seem to just gloss over the fact that when a kid is, say 14, 15 or 16 and starts using various substances obsessively and without the life experience to see the harm involved, somebody, like the parents for example, has an obligation to step in and say "no".

It would just be silly, these positions you take,if we weren't talking about young inexperienced kids and the idea that they should just be allowed to mess up or even destroy their lives on the basis of some kind of sham idea of freedom that you are peddling. I say it again, looking back over your posts, you seem just obsessed with playing down the harm drugs do and overstating any particular good they bring about (oh boy, if I get high, I'll enjoy Miles Davis more, or some such nonsence).

I'd say "shame on you" but I imagine that you tossed out shame along with a lot of other things when you adopted the point of view you're pushing here.

I just can't have much confidence in your judgment about what a school should or should not be, based on the positions I've seen you take.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2004, 05:29:00 PM »
Antigen-have you seen the place? It is rather isolated. Whereas at home he could defy us by sneaking out a window, running away from school or undermining discipline in a variety of creative ways, it was a little disconcerting for a city boy to suddenly find himself in an isolated forest area and without any drugs to prop up his confidence either.

So, the way he's explained it to me, the setting got his attention, made him slow down a little at least in the short term.  And in the process of thinking about what to do to get out of this without causing himself any more trouble than he had, over the first months, he did nothing but do the bare minimum.  He never told me about any abusive raps, although he said that some of the older kids asked him when he was going to start contributing. According to his account, he told them, in a rather surly way I'm sure that he would never contribute, that the school was nothing to him.  This went on for months.

I think that it was through friendships and connection with certain staff memebers, as well as being in a place where he could slow down and  think, something that he couldn't do at home because he was always going, that he eventually considered the possibility of change and came to see why he had been acting destructively.

That didn't happen for more than a year, I remember hearing in his voice on the phone after one of the Propheets, when he came to realize that it didn't have to be the way that it had been.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2004, 07:59:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-09-07 14:29:00, ottawa5 wrote:

an isolated forest area


And do you think you could get away w/ isolating your child like that w/o the fascade of professionalism bestowed by the calling it a TBS?

"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5617&forum=9#50637' target='_new'>Timoclea

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2004, 08:46:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-09-07 14:29:00, ottawa5 wrote:

I think that it was through friendships and connection with certain staff memebers,


Under those conditions, this is what your shrink collegues might call Stokholm Syndrome.

When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2004, 08:48:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-09-07 14:16:00, ottawa5 wrote:

It's your whole world view, some kind of a cartoonish, 60's hippie renaissance, it seems to have a lot of naivity to it and most especially to glorify and justify drug use.


Ever watch the commercials during 60 Minutes? I'm not the one advocating drug use.

He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
--Author: Sir William Drummond

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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2004, 09:27:00 PM »
Sad, really sad.  

What happened with my son involved genuine, human connection with other people who went way beyond their job descriptions to offer him something better.  And all you can see is "Stockholm Syndrome".  

I met these people, I got to know them to some extent, they were good people who did positive things in terms of using their time, their energy and their own life experiences to help him, as well as others, in overcoming. personal challenges.  They helped him, and others, to be better.

Shame on you for not being able to consider that these good, worthwhile people did helpful, kind things that helped him be where he is today.

Try believing in goodness once in a while,why don't you, Antigen (as opposed to, say, believing in drugs, prescribed or, as you seem to prefer, not)  Try it, at least when the evidence, as in this case, is that it was really goodness ,and that it lead to something much better for him than what he, or we, had before.
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