Author Topic: How About This Theory  (Read 33660 times)

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Offline ottawa5

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How About This Theory
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2004, 11:43:00 PM »
To the last two posters:

How to improve on the current CEDU program, this is my question.  My son went to RMA, he had a good experience, and his life is better for going there, but I hear these stories here at this site, some of them really awful.  

What would you do to change CEDU, that's what I want to do, to keep what is positive, and still to get rid of what has the potential to hurt people?

My son says that he wouldn't change any of it, but maybe his experience was just lucky, with good friends and staff, I want other opinions too, what would you change?

My present idea is it has to do with hiring kind, sensitive people who can be strong too and not letting in kids who are not suited to the program (with certain psychological conditions I'm thinking), but I'd like more opinions.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2004, 01:03:00 AM »
Fuck off you cunt piece of shit. You don't know jack motherfucker. I was on proby placement in CEDU unlike you obviously.

Quote
On 2004-08-07 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"In Pelican Bay, you're ether running shit or your sucking cock and taking it up the ass. Which were you ex-CEDU rich boy?  Yeah, keep bragging about pelican bay.



"
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Offline bradensmith

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« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2004, 01:54:00 AM »


In response to the last poster... What the hell are you talking about?  I was on probation when i left for RMA, although the courts did not send me there.  Honestly, I would sure as hell rather have been placed there by the courts then to have the feeling that my parents betrayed me my first 3 months.  Do me a favor and think before you post. thats all I am going to say.  

This is to the poster that said they had sent there child there and they had a good experience.  I just got back from a visit to RMA.  I went to watch a couple of my friends stand on stage and graduate because, they are my friends and I was there to support them.  The things i saw that RMA was doing was awesome.  In my mind, I wouldn't change anything.  There are no longer any clothing agreements (for the most part.)  The kids can have there skateboards for a pastime, and the have a PS2 and everything.  It looks to me like things are going pretty well out there.  The propheets are almost all out the door which could be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it. The truth is, at RMA, right now things are going great.  If you would like to ask me more specific questions please, feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] I would love to answer some questions.  Oh, and the most important thing about it all is, the kids at RMA right now seem happy which, let me tell you was not the feeling i got when i left 4 months ago.
I am tired im gonna hit the sack.

Oh yea and to this SON OF SERBIA, E-mail me, i will give you my adress, im not hiding behind any computer.  Listen man you ruin these boards with your sensless rantings about how bad the school is.  Your just a bully man, come to my house i got a spare bed, and I will take you out and buy you a cup of coffee and you can sit and vent all you F**cking want, please dont do it on these boards.  Just take a breath and relax a bit bro.

Oh yea, and Bryan Felsher, you are the same man you are the most ridiculous poster on this site.  You compared CEDU to Aushwitz what were you thinking, take a history class, and you will learn about some real fucking pain.




DONT BE A MORON !!RELAX!!

AND LISTEN TO SOME PROPHEET MUSIC LOL

IMAGINE PROPHEET BABY!!!!

[ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 23:03 ][ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 23:04 ][ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 23:14 ][ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 23:16 ][ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 23:18 ][ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 23:19 ][ This Message was edited by: bradensmith on 2004-08-07 23:56 ]

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2004, 02:13:00 AM »
Your ideas are just fine. Hiring kind people and not taking in kids with serious psychiatric problems.

You have to keep training, training, training staff. Staff culture and treatment milieu are the most important things. I believe the power of these places has to do with physically removing a kid from places where he is getting into trouble - neighborhood, friends, etc.

Also, you will want to make sure and keep communication with parents open and often. You want therapists supervising everything. I would not suggest having a set amount of time for the program. Make it individual by kid.

Have a consulting psychologist who is not invested in the business AT ALL to assist in treatment decisions. The problem with these places is that they often do not do this - or if they do, the psychologist is too much involved with them. They might claim that they use the consulting services of the psychologist, but they actually do not - not really. Many of these schools offer too much of an incentive to keep the kid there.

Also, use the angry nature of many of these posts as a guideline - you don't want your kids that angry. Conduct REAL outcome studies. Follow the kids 6 months, 1 year, and 3 years after D/C. Have a neutral, third party conduct the study. Graduate students are perfect for this. If you can get a university faculty member on board, it can be a project they are involved in.

I see a lot of wounded persons on these posts. I've read accounts of poorly-educated, power-hungry staff. I've seen posts here about terrible disrespect for feelings and claims of manipulation. One of the biggest problems with these schools is "manipulation." It seems that often times, kids who are genuinely in pain and want to talk to their parents are labeled as manipulating. Staff education will help eliminate this. When they are ignorant, the word, "manipulate" covers anything they don't like. As administrator of several facilities, I struck that word from our vocabulary. Staff was not to use it. In my professional experience, use of that word has a direct, negative correlation with staff education and sophistication. The less educated the staff, the more they say that a kid is manipulating.

One caution - people who want to work with kids often do have many issues. Teach them about boundaries - educate your staff as to what is appropriate and what is inappropriate self-disclosure. Teach them about development and what behaviors are to be expected. And for heaven sake, keep the education going! I have been administrator of several facilities - I found that educating the staff was one of the most important things I could do. Otherwise, they just go on their own stuff. They may look good in an interview, but when it comes down to it, they might be horrible.

Make sure your staff education always includes role-play. They might look like they understand, but that doesn't mean anything. One thing I did at my facilities was to act really horrible and have them intervene. They were to be kind, empathetic, respectful of my feelings, and NOT condescending. I found this to be a real problem at some of these places. I've served as a consultant, placing kids. The only place I felt completely comfortable about was Yellowstone Boys and Girls Ranch. I've sent several kids there and they have all told me that it saved their lives. I spoke with one last week - I had sent her there five years ago - she said the same thing. The problem with Yellowstone is that it's religious - it's Christian. I am a Jew, so I understand that some people wouldn't want this! However, as far as I'm concerned, it's the best place that I'm aware of.

Arrive, unannounced, at all times of day and night to see what's going on. Sit in on groups. Actively intervene. Train, train, train. I cannot stress this enough.

Write a mission statement and make sure all staff know it. Post it all over the place. Have the words, "respect" and "empathy" in it. Be aware, always aware, that some people who want to work with kids have many issues. They include their own drug history and other acting-out histories. Some kids have abuse issues - coming from abusive homes. If they are not trained like crazy, these problems leak into their work. They see everyone through their own histories. You must train this out of them, as much as possible.

I've seen therapists who had significant issues that leaked into their work and rendered them really inappropriate. I have seen licensed therapists on power trips with kids. I will never, ever understand this - but so many persons who want to work with kids are on power trips. Many seem to be deeply angry and this comes out. Some staff have what I can only describe as a "smart-ass" attitude with these kids. This only serves to escalate the kids' anger.

Beware of staff splitting. Staff splitting is blamed on the kids. This is utter rubbish. Staff splitting is on the staff - always! Strong, emotionally healthy staff don't allow themselves to be split! Staff must feel like a team - you accomplish this with fun staff activities and lots of training. Gee, did I mention training already?

Be ever so careful with admissions. Many of these schools have the wallet admission criteria. Fact is, many of the kids in them don't need to be there. However, I'm a child psychologist. I've seen kids die from their own poor choices. Huffing and club drugs, and gang activity are the main culprits. Some kids are on a path to self-destruction that must be interrupted.

Be aware that after residential, there is a significant period of adjustment. You need a good aftercare program. You need to make the stay as short as possible - you don't want your clients to be completely unable to function afterward.

It's okay to use peer support - that is a very powerful intervention. However, you want to make sure that it's not inappropriate. Don't set up things to that kids are rewarded socially only for coming up with confessions of terrible activities. Such a culture encourages fabrication. You want positive support for positive behaviors.

I would recommend a cognitive/behavioral approach. It has been shown empirically to be the most effective. Add some Carl Rogers and you can have a good program.

Look at the pain and anger in these posts. You are aware, I'm sure, that people who are satisfied with something don't take the effort to go to these bulletin boards. The people here are hurt and angry. Respect their feelings. I've looked at some of your posts and they concern me. You have put a lot of effort into arguing with them, and they have said that you are condescending. I have to agree with that assessment. The apparent effort you put into arguing with them does look like you have a boundary problem. Please take this as it is intended ? to be helpful. If you are in school to be a psychologist, you have been learning about the importance of boundaries. You have looked far too emotionally involved here. Arguing with someone is the least effective way to get them to see things your way. I do hope you seek superior supervision and work on boundaries in your own therapy. Good luck in your endeavors.
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Offline bradensmith

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« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2004, 02:21:00 AM »
Brialliant post
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2004, 03:07:00 AM »
Well, thank you!

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On 2004-08-07 23:21:00, bradensmith wrote:

"Brialliant post"
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Offline former CEDU therapist

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« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2004, 03:53:00 AM »
Ottawa, read the anonymous post responding to your query. It lays out everything. Some kids literally die from their choices, but other kids don't really need these placements. Also, it seems that these different CEDU schools vary from each other - maybe a lot.

I hope you'll listen to what some of these ex-CEDU kids are telling you and not just the ones who say what you want to hear. Everyone here has something to say.

Okay, guys. I know you're all mad at this Ottawa person. But she's asking what you would change about CEDU. Can you give her some answers?

Quote
On 2004-08-07 20:43:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"To the last two posters:



How to improve on the current CEDU program, this is my question.  My son went to RMA, he had a good experience, and his life is better for going there, but I hear these stories here at this site, some of them really awful.  



What would you do to change CEDU, that's what I want to do, to keep what is positive, and still to get rid of what has the potential to hurt people?



My son says that he wouldn't change any of it, but maybe his experience was just lucky, with good friends and staff, I want other opinions too, what would you change?



My present idea is it has to do with hiring kind, sensitive people who can be strong too and not letting in kids who are not suited to the program (with certain psychological conditions I'm thinking), but I'd like more opinions.

"
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Offline mikehunt

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« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2004, 04:41:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-08-08 00:53:00, former CEDU therapist wrote:

"Ottawa, read the anonymous post responding to your query. It lays out everything. Some kids literally die from their choices, but other kids don't really need these placements. Also, it seems that these different CEDU schools vary from each other - maybe a lot.



I hope you'll listen to what some of these ex-CEDU kids are telling you and not just the ones who say what you want to hear. Everyone here has something to say.



Okay, guys. I know you're all mad at this Ottawa person. But she's asking what you would change about CEDU. Can you give her some answers?



Quote

On 2004-08-07 20:43:00, ottawa5 wrote:


"To the last two posters:





How to improve on the current CEDU program, this is my question.  My son went to RMA, he had a good experience, and his life is better for going there, but I hear these stories here at this site, some of them really awful.  





What would you do to change CEDU, that's what I want to do, to keep what is positive, and still to get rid of what has the potential to hurt people?





My son says that he wouldn't change any of it, but maybe his experience was just lucky, with good friends and staff, I want other opinions too, what would you change?





My present idea is it has to do with hiring kind, sensitive people who can be strong too and not letting in kids who are not suited to the program (with certain psychological conditions I'm thinking), but I'd like more opinions.


"

"

here's what i'd do to change cedu:
stop being deceitful to acquire students and keep them in the program; stop using the term "therapy" to describe disciplinary tactics.  or perhaps start using therapy instead.  
in order to be therapeutic, the skool must adjust their methods for each individual student.  how to heal the students: get creative counselors with a genuine desire to help change these kids' mentalities to something that'll be more beneficial to them.
also, many of the kids at cedu are not prepared for the type of treatment they receive; it's sort of shocking for many.  luckily for your son, he was (or at least he allowed himself to go along with it once he was immersed in it.) others have no idea what's being shot at them, and so they're left to defend themselves in whichever ways they can (for some people, this means taking their own life before they allow someone else to ruin it.)  the resolution goes back to the whole ethical therapy thing... personal needs have to be taken into consideration for optimal results.  sensitive and creative staff members are necessary to perform therapeutic duties.. this means that the counselors would have to adapt the program to each individual so that these people would actually let their defenses down and receive something that's being offered to them.
it's about ethical manipulation... (there's a fine line between ethical and unethical manipulation.. if the spoken and unspoken agenda is to unleash another's personal creativity, it's undubitably ethical.  trying to program a batch of moral robots is dehumanizing; that it is no longer an act of love, and consequently, it is not ethical)
i had to learn my own lessons the hard way (through my defiance).  on the other hand, most of the lessons which cedu deliver are pretty mundane and simple... nothing too profound or groundbreaking.
they need to change their focus.  cedu should teach more about individuality; getting to know YOUR brain, how it functions, how to werk with it, how to reprogram it yourself.  now THAT is headsplitting, groundbreaking shit.[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-08-08 01:44 ][ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-08-13 20:46 ]
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aura solomon

Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2004, 10:44:00 AM »
Thanks, this is exactly the type of thing I am trying to learn. Thanks to the "anonymous" poster too.

If you don't mind, I'll email in a week or so, I'd like to have my son (he's travelling right now) to be in on the discussions, since he was there too, and has insights that I don't.

But one more question--what do you think can be done about what some posters call the "coercive" aspects of these schools?  

In our own case, my son would never have gone if we hadn't physically taken him there. But what else is a parent supposed to do if an underage kid is relentlessly getting involved with criminal, not to mention, physically dangerous activities?  I just didn't have the heart to let him go out into the world in the hopes that he would "bottom out" before he killed himself, and anyway, we had legal responsibilties to him as a minor.

My question, what alternatives do you see to forcing a kid to attend one of these schools--are there any that occur to you out of your own experience?

Here is the thing: I really want to do this right if I do start a school or even take part in one, so believe me, I appreciate all the input, positive, and negative, too. I intend to, and hope I can, use it all to do good, in one way or another.
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Offline mad

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« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2004, 11:30:00 AM »
I was taken by force to RMA by two men who picked me up at work; my uncle also came and helped by luring me outside of my workplace so as to cause less of a scene.  Like your son, and many of our peers, there is no way that my mother could have talked me into going up to the school on my own volition.  She had given me that choice and I had taken to living on the streets instead of "going to visit the school?" as she had suggested.  She also choose to send me to RMA because she knew that I would walk away from Cedu as soon as I was dropped off.

It was a humiliating experience to be publicly plucked out of my life against my will and forcibly transported to RMA.  However, I don't know of any alternative that would have ended with me being at the school.

The only thing that I wish my mother and stepmother had done differently was to be absent when I was picked up.  They watched me be "taken" from a safe distance of a parking lot away through the windows of their car.  The power dynamics of that moment were unnecessarily painful.  It was clear that my mother was taking control, but there was something sadistic in having her watch.  I tried to revisit this with her years later but her perception of that moment as a mother is very different than mine.  She had wanted to be sure that it worked and had wanted to have a sense of closure over the drama in which we had been living.  While I appreciate that, I still wish that she had put my needs for some privacy during a humiliating moment before her own needs for emotional containment.

Best, Mark

_________________
on the road of experience...[ This Message was edited by: mad on 2004-08-08 08:31 ][ This Message was edited by: mad on 2004-08-08 08:33 ]
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n the road of experience...

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2004, 11:31:00 AM »
Looks like a lot of stuff were covered.  But I will add that it would be nice if the academics were actually viable.

Also: I think it is better to talk to kids in a direct way, not assaulting them...

The other problem I've heard from a lot of kids is that they were so insulated with all the lingo, lack of contact, lack of media (which is a mixed bag), etc. they were unprepared to deal with real world.  Instead of forming their own values and letting others have theirs, they formed CEDU values.  Mnay kids I talked to said they learned how to work hard but not deal with real world.  

Also, many had problems with oversharing on some level and complete distrust of authority on others.  (Because many staff at CEDU were not honest either with parents or with us.)

Also, the bans were sometimes ridiculous. One girl was banned from the sun.  If a girl was beautiful, she was treated like crap even if she didn't warrant it and was banned from all guys.  Bans shouldn't be totally  ridiculously arbitrary or they lose their credibility.

Also, staff shouldn't call you names or say you were a slut for having sex before, or a junkie because you smoked pot, or make you feel dirty in the process of "empowering" you. They also shouldn't use traumatic experiences against you.

Thta's all for now.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2004, 12:25:00 PM »
What you say about the humiliating nature of a kid being forced to go to the school as you were: this ia a big concern to me.

I am ashamed to say that it wasn't a big deal for me at the time, partly because I felt so personally humiliated and exhausted by what we'd been through for a couple of years--it was only later that I came to understand how hard the whole thing was on my child too.

My son doesn't blame us now but I kind of wish there was a better way, especially when I hear your emotionally graphic description of how it felt to you.  Even for those of us who didn't use escorts, there is a power dynamic there that is just unkind. Maybe even a dynamic that at least approaches sadistic, as you say.

What would be that better way? I mean, would it really be better to put the decision to send the kid to a school, in the hands of the courts or social services, rather than in the hands of the parents? Wouldn't that have its own problems?  

If any ideas do occur to you, I would appreciate hearing them, I also want to talk to you more later, when my son is back in town.
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Offline CEDU IS A CULT

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« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2004, 12:52:00 PM »
In the light of what is and has always been commonly accepted by man, I will always sound ridiculous to most.  New ideas always have and always will be.  It is those few that have ventured forth into the unknown that have always interested me.  I have always chosen to allign myself apart from the masses and strive for original thought.  I suppose this is why I have such a problem with CEDU, SYNANON, JIM JONES, AMERICA, HITLER, STALIN, REAGAN, and all who attempt by force to make others like them.  I suppose this is how I can compare CEDU to AUSHWITZ.  My grandfather (a hungarian Jew) watched his first pregnant wife die there.  So I by no means would ever disregard the horrors of aushwitz.  Strange how it could somehow be responsible for my being.[ This Message was edited by: Bryan Felsher on 2004-08-08 09:53 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2004, 01:11:00 PM »
None of you know what might have happened had you, your kid or the kid who wound up in your Program not landed there. None of you do. This is why the ends can never justify the means; because none of us are omnicient and, therefore, none of us can be sure what the end will be.

It's always painful to watch someone you love make mistakes and suffer the consequences. But that's just part of life. The answer to your question; what can be done about kids who (you are convinced) need help but who won't accept it is nothing! You can offer, you can demonstrate that your love for them is unconditional by never withdrawing it or threatening to. And you can have a little more faith in your own kid to, eventually, sort things out than in some stranger who thinks they know better.

A therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. If there is coercion, then whatever it is you may be trying to do, it is NOT therapy!

A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.


--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2004, 01:17:00 PM »
When I went to CEDU, I was desperate. I was not oppositional or defiant or on drugs, but I was depressed, underachieving, and desperately unhappy.  In addition, I had a few traumatic experiences right before CEDU.  My parents told me they were taking me there and I myself wanted help.  So I didn't fight it.

As it turns out, CEDU was absolutely the wrong place for me, and I've listed many reasons on other posts.  The root of the problem was never uncovered, and the staff were not honest in their dealings with me or my parents. I really did need help but CEDU did not provide it. I wasn't a liar or a manipulator or a drug addict and I didn't appreciate being treated like one. Also the bullying and the taunts and the weird lingo were not helpful at all.  If anyone had treated me like an individual or directed treatment in a way to fortify your self esteem instead of tearing it down, it would have helped.  I also needed better schooling than the joke that was offered as academics.  (This may have changed over the past 10+ years--I hope so.)
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