My intentions

[ottawa5]

Whoever you are, reports of my demise are vastly over-rated--I was only trying to avoid contact with a certain poster.  

As it transpired, I was not even able to avoid that.

[Anonymous]

Ahhhh, but you WOULD have been able to avoid it if you had done as you stated.  Good God!  You're like a little gnat buzzing around our heads...just wannna smack ya!! :lol:  :lol:

[ottawa5]

Cryptic. Very cryptic.

[Deborah]

We've got many survivors at Fornits saying they had a bad experience.

Then there is Ottawa claiming her and her son had a good experience.

Further, even though she claims to be here to hear the good and the bad. She continually ignores or minimizes the bad... but takes every opportunity to sing the programs praises.

She doesn't appear to me, to be the least bit interested in gathering information on what didn't work for you guys. I haven't heard her ask one person to describe in detail any particular incident. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's what I do when I'm gathering research. Intead she appears to be more interested in provoking survivors to rage or 'hysteria'.

Ottawa said:
I want to recreate that (good) experience for other people and so I must take on the burden of de-constructing how it happened.

AND: "And part of that is understanding what has not worked for others (letting kids with certain diagnoses into emotional growth programs, for example)."

What did you think about that comment? Read it carefully?

Call me skeptical, but me thinks that's why she's really here. To make a case that all 'survivors' of CEDU were too severely damaged, and were poor candidates- wrongly placed. That you should've instead had psych dx's and placed in mental institutions.  Har!

Suggestion: Don't respond to her unless it is to tell her, in specific detail, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU, WHO DID IT, AND WHY IT DIDN'T WORK. WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, HOW, WHY.

Ya know, researchers are never objective. The researcher will always attempt to influence the outcome in order to prove their hypothesis. You'll probably be mentioned in her thesis.

[Anonymous]

That's why this is all a big fucking waste of time.  It's just like their website, can't hear or accept anything negative.

IGNORE IT AND IT'LL GO AWAY.

[Anonymous]

Woops, I meant ignore the idiot.  But it also fits with their philosophy.  If they ignore all the bad that's been reported, maybe it will magically disappear.

[Cypress]

Ottawa,
I havent figured out yet why you are choosing to ignore me.  I really am interested in hearing why you would want to ignore me.  What kind of a threat do I pose to you?  If its the whole "she's too fragile to deal with conflict" argument, I beg of you to get over it.

I have a few proposals for you.  I acknowledge that you have every right to be here and post whatever it is you might like to say.  I may not agree with what you say but I would hate to see the forum censored in any way.  That being said, let me say this.  The road runs both ways. If you choose to post on this board and I choose to listen to what you have to say, be prepared to receive a response back from me.  I will not agree to ignore you.  It is neither productive, nor realistic.

Next, there are no rules here on proper etiquette.  No one here is trying to win a Miss Manners contest.  I for one will continue to use foul language and post "angry tirades".  It is how I choose to express myself.  If you don't like it, frankly, get over it.  As I've said before, this is our forum.  We are entitled to express our views in any way we choose.  I would suggest that you simply accept it.  I have spent a bit of time re-reading a sampling of posts and have found that I was not so much angered by the content of your argument but by the manner in which you chose to strike back at posters.  I will acknowledge that this is perhaps just how you express yourself.  So be it.  I do not agree with your techniques but there is not a damned thing I can do about it.

Moving on.  I simply ask that you understand that those of us who have posted so far on this forum have had pretty negative experiences with the Cedu technique.  You on the other hand have had a positive experience.  But that is like comparing apples to oranges.  You have never been a student at a program.  You can not relate to where we have been and what we have survived.  You say your son has had a positive experience and I guess we will just have to take you at your word since your son has remained silent.

I believe that the Cedu technique is inherently abusive.  You on the other hand disagree with this belief.

History has proven man's viewpoints on what constitues abuse wrong on many an occassion.  There was a time when slavery was not considered abuse.  There was a time when children as young six in the workforce was not considered abuse.  There was a time when cruel psychiatric treatments were not considered abuse.  There was a time when domestic violence was not considered abuse. I firmly believe that eventually, submitting children to extreme psychological torment (aka Raps) will be considered abuse.  I believe that depriving a child of their due process will be considered abuse.  I believe that submitting children to endless hours of isolation will be considered abuse.  I believe that restricting a child's access to education will be considered abuse.

If you are up to it, I would honestly appreciate hearing your response to this post.  If, on the other hand, you choose to ignore it, so be it.

[ottawa5]

Deborah--I am still trying to come to terms with your weekend post--actually made notes on it today between clients.

Here is the thing--you seem to have a lot of opinions on psychology and research in general--what is the basis of your understanding in this regard: reading, course-work, or what? Because, I have to say, a lot of it seems kind of simplistic, like someone who really is kind of fuzzy on the details but wants to be considered an authority just because she is bashing something.

Using your "oh my pie" food based metaphor, might I go so far as to say that you do not seem to know "beans from apple butter" about these subjects?  This is only a hypothesis of course, one day I will get through your post and we can have a real food fight over it.

You know, when I first heard from you, your name was unfamiliar to me and I checked some of your previous contributions of which there are many, but wasn't one of them about how it would be if you were Queen?  And now, in this post, you are instructing the whole forum on how to relate to me? Hmmm--how do you spell "delusions of grandeur"?

But never mind, what will be, and if people adherr to your advice or not, my life will go on--at least, I hope, long enough to address your post in some detail.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-07-27 21:13:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"


Using your "oh my pie" food based metaphor, might I go so far as to say that you do not seem to know "beans from apple butter" about these subjects?  This is only a hypothesis of course, one day I will get through your post and we can have a real food fight over it.

OK.  Now you're just making me hungry.

[Deborah]

Sweetie,
I imagine you're having a reaction. It wasn't an "instruction", I stated it as a "suggestion".

So, what will the topic of your thesis be, Ottawa?
Will any of the "characters" you've encountered here be analyzed?

You apparently know what a metaphor is, but you can't figure out what I meant when I said, "If I were Queen"? I think it was more likely an indirect comment, implying that I'm a control freak. And probably in response to me suggesting you might have control issues from your traditional/catholic upbringing, which I still believe. And I might add, an over-undulged ego.

I'm good at slinging hash and grits. You are most definitely a behavioralist, I'm most definitely not. Do you really want to have that debate? I'm not that interested myself, and I don't see how it will further your stated purpose.

Wouldn't your time be better spent engaging the survivors here. You know, asking questions, confirming stories, showing a real interest in what happened to people and how they were hurt?

[ottawa5]

Cypress--I like your style of laying down the rules of engagement.  

They seem fair to me. I have never cared much if people use particular language, although I admit to finding it boring if it is just the same four letter words, over and over, with no creative content.

Similarly, I can't do much about the fact that I express myself formally--to be honest, maybe I could, but I'm not inclined to.  So if I can put up with your language, maybe you can put up with mine.

I understand that you would like to hear from my son directly. In truth, I wish that I could bring him to this forum. I know I am his mother and biased, but he is one of the best people that I know in the world. Now that he is an adult, I try to not to interfere with his life, as I would be doing if I insisted that he come here.  And he probably would, if I did insist, because our relationship now is that we try when we can to help each other. But it seems wrong to pressure him.

Just to explain how caring he is, let me tell you a short anecdote.  He recently did a semester abroad in his college program. It was in a country where many drugs are legal and although he has had no problems with substance abuse since RMA, he sensed, I guess, that I was kind of nervous about how things would go for him there--I just didn't know, if he chose to dabble in these things that he would be OK.

So he set up a web page where he continually posted pictures of what he was doing, so I could go to it and check in on what he was up to--he posted pix there of various places he visited, his apartment, etc. And he did this without us ever talking explicitly about my concerns, he did it out of sensitivity and respect.  He did it to give me security in the knowledge that he would manage well when he was on his own.

And he did fine there, of course, and is back at his home college in pre-med courses.

I don't know why the positive things that happened to our family through the CEDU experience did not always happen to other families--clearly they did not always.

And I am not saying that CEDU is perfect--if I were in charge, there are things that I would change, but I am saying that, in the whole emotional growth/ experiential concept, there were things that were very real and good for us, not like a cult, but like a growth experience.

I'd like to find out how to keep the things in this program that work and eliminate some other things that may be preventing certain people from connecting with what is good in the overall concept.

I'd appreciate your insights.

[Anonymous]

Deborah does not speak for all of us.  I agree that CEDU is a hell hole that needs to be shut down, but the way she comes across...i.e. "sweetie"...just makes me personally want to puke.  And I've been fighting this fight a lot longer than she's even been aware these places existed.  PLEASE do not take her as being representative of us all.  She's real good at being all high and mighty and very often tries to make others feel that she is their intellectual superior and thus any good points that she actually DOES come up with are summarily dismissed.

[ottawa5]

Deborah--Of course I would like to debate you: and I swear that I will get to your post soon, although not so soon, because I'm going to stay away from this blessed site tomorrow and catch up on about a dozen reports.

Word of caution: don't draw too many inferences from what you know of my background--I just might draw a few based on what I know about yours--then you'll see, perhaps, how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and how a few facts can lead to a multiplicity of interpretations.

[Deborah]

Now, that's Cryptic.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-07-27 21:12:00, Cypress wrote:


I believe that the Cedu technique is inherently abusive.  You on the other hand disagree with this belief.



History has proven man's viewpoints on what constitues abuse wrong on many an occassion.  There was a time when slavery was not considered abuse.  There was a time when children as young six in the workforce was not considered abuse.  There was a time when cruel psychiatric treatments were not considered abuse.  There was a time when domestic violence was not considered abuse. I firmly believe that eventually, submitting children to extreme psychological torment (aka Raps) will be considered abuse.  I believe that depriving a child of their due process will be considered abuse.  I believe that submitting children to endless hours of isolation will be considered abuse.  I believe that restricting a child's access to education will be considered abuse.

Ottawa,

I have laid out my position on the faults I find with the Cedu method. (See above).  You want to know what works in the Cedu method. First answer me this.  What is it about Cedu that you like.  What exactly do you want to replicate? Please be as specific as posssible.